1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 2: Now, Good day. This is doctor Justin Colson. So glad 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: that you've joined me for a conversation today with Susie O'Brien. 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: Susie is an author of parenting books, also a reporter 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: for The Herald Sun and a range of other publications, 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: mainly writing about education stuff and parenting stuff. I always 8 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: enjoy chatting with Susie and always enjoy her insights when 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: she writes. Recently, Susie published a piece that really caught 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 2: my attention. She's going to join me now to discuss 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: what's happening in schools when it comes to kids, the 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: curriculum and challenging behavior. Susie, Welcome to the Happy Family Podcast. 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: Thank you tell us about this new story that has 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: hit the papers and what it means for families. 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, it's quite fascinating, Justin, because last year the OECD 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: Education Body came out and found that they were assessing 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: the way fifteen year olds behaving schools and we found 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: that Australia came thirty third out of thirty seven countries globally. 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: You think, how can we and educated democracy have worse 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: behavior in classrooms than a whole heap of other countries. 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: So this sparked a Senate inquiry and one of the 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: things coming out of that Senate inquiry was the suggestion 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: that we need to go back to basics and teach 24 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: kids in school how to behave. 25 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is a federal Senate inquiry. The Commonwealth 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: looked at it and said thirty three out of thirty 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: seven looks pretty ugly. And the feedback from teachers. I mean, 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: I'm in and out of schools almost every day and 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: teachers I hear horror stories. I'm not going to share 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: them on the podcast right now, but the the kind 31 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: of stories though that most parents, if they knew that 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: this was happening, they would well, I'll just put it out. 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: They probably wouldn't want to send them to school. The 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: stuff that goes on in Australian schools is literally and 35 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: unquestionably shocking, not at every school, but at many schools, 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: too many schools, and to rank thirty thirty three out 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: of thirty seven is terrible. So okay, we've got the 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: federal government has an inquiry and says we need to 39 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: go back to basics. What does back to basics mean 40 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: when it comes to behavior at school? 41 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: Well, they had a look at what's happened in other 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: countries and the UK is really leading the way, and 43 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: the UK bought in something called a behavior curriculum. 44 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: I might just jump in before you talk about UK's 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: behavior curriculum because the United Kingdom has been known for 46 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: decades to be a terrifying place to be a teacher, Like, 47 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: schools don't feel safe in the UK, right, This is 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: a well known stereotype, right. 49 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that they did a couple 50 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: of years ago is putting something called the Behavior Curriculum, 51 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: which is basically teaching behavior and respect and basic manners 52 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: to children in the same way as you teach reading, writing, 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: and arithmetic. So it's not assuming. So that basically all 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: the experts are saying, no longer can we assume that 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: kids come to school knowing how to behave, And no 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: longer can we assume that teachers come to the classroom 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: knowing how to teach behavior, knowing how to manage behavior. 58 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: So there's two issues that teachers don't know what to 59 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: do and the kids don't know what to do. So 60 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: two of the things that came out of this Senate 61 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: inquiry was looking at curriculum materials to help schools and 62 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: to help teachers manage behavior in class. And one of 63 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: the biggest things is from the beginning of the school year, 64 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: from the beginning of prep, day one, foundation, whatever you 65 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: call it, setting out the expectations in a very very 66 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: clear way. So teachers tell kids and they practice it, 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: and they drill it, and they go through it exactly 68 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: how they need to behave what are the expectations on them? 69 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: Because we're finding this is what all the experts are saying, 70 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: kids don't know and teachers don't know. 71 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: Susie, you're not necessarily advocating for this, you're simply reporting 72 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 2: on it. So I'm not asking you to defend this decision. 73 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 2: I want to bounce something off you though that I 74 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: struggle with. There's a tension that I feel when I 75 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: hear you saying this, Well, there are two things. First 76 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: of all, good like getting a year nine student or 77 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: a year eleven student to buy into this like they've 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: had eight, nine, ten or eleven years of not having 79 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: this kind of structure. That's just presenting a really big challenge. 80 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: It really has to start at the beginning and be 81 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: rolled out in the junior years, and those kids have 82 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 2: to get used to it and bring it along and 83 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: recreate the culture. But secondly, my experience has been that 84 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: most teachers do this anyway. Most teachers are aware quite 85 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: explicitly of what they expect of children, pretty good at 86 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: letting them know exactly what they expect of students. They 87 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: often have rules at the front of the room. The 88 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: students have voice in developing those rules. When you're describing 89 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: this to me, and again, I know you're not the 90 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: architect of it, But what's different about what teachers are 91 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 2: typically doing to what this curriculum is going to require 92 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: of them? 93 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: I think the biggest difference is that it's setting it 94 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: a school wide standard, and it's up to each school 95 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: to set what their standard is. But kids are going 96 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: from class to class and teacher to teach a year 97 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: to year not quite knowing what the exact expectations are. 98 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: And so I think there is also a feeling amongst 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: some teachers that there is so much emphasis these days 100 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: on the individual and the need for people to express 101 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: their individuality and so on, and the rights of the 102 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: individual student, that the right that that has come before 103 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: the rights of the group, and so what some teachers 104 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: are saying, and as you put out, all teachers will 105 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: be behind this, is that they want to get the 106 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: focus back on the group and they want to ensure 107 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: that there is room for kids with special needs or 108 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: whatever like. It's not just a kind of blunt instrument, 109 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: but that they start moving away from this focus on 110 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: every individual and looking at the group as a whole 111 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: and how they can work better together. 112 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 2: As you've spoken with educators around the country about this, cuzy, 113 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: is there enthusiasm for it? They rolling their eyes and saying, 114 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: here we go another new program. How's the general response 115 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: been from those that you've spoken with. 116 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot of teachers say, help USS get 117 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: control back in their classrooms. They are so exhausted. They 118 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: don't feel supported by parents. They often don't feel supported 119 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: by their principles. They feel that they're at war with 120 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: their kids half the time, you know, in the classroom, 121 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: and what they want is better support. And this is 122 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: a way to give them one form of support where 123 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: the school sits down with every parent, every group of 124 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: kids at the beginning of the year and they set 125 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: out what those expectations are. So that the teachers are 126 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: not reinventing the wheel every single class and telling kids 127 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: what the rules are in this particular classroom, so that 128 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: the work, some of that work has already done by 129 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: the time the kids arrived. And you know what, teachers 130 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: are voting with their feet. I guess you could say 131 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: they're deserting the profession in droves. They don't want to 132 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: be teachers. They didn't sign up to be teachers for 133 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. What they want is a calm 134 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: classroom that's conducive to learning. They don't want to be 135 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: spending two thirds of their time telling kids off. 136 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: Is there any international evidence to support this? I mean, 137 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: you've indicated that the UK is working on it and 138 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: seems to be making some progress. What do we know 139 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: about that and is there anything else that we can 140 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: lean on here or is the government just running at 141 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: this and saying we need to do something. This looks 142 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: good enough for now. Where are we in terms of evidence? 143 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: Well, they have been drawing quite closely on some of 144 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: the work from the UK and Professor Tom Robinson I 145 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: believe his name is, it's really sort of the pioneer 146 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: in this area, and they have found some remarkable results, 147 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: particularly in schools with a high disadvantage population, schools that 148 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: in some ways are the most chaotic because often kids 149 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: are coming to class with a whole heap of other 150 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: stuff going on in their own lives, and they're not 151 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: necessarily set up just to prioritize their learning. And I 152 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: think there is this assumption that somehow kids won't like this, 153 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: they'll see it as too punitive or too harsh. But 154 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: if you think about it, a lot of the time 155 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: kids like certainty. They like knowing what they're expected to 156 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: do well. 157 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 2: And you can have rules without note. You can have 158 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: rules without being punitive. You can have rules without being harsh. 159 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: You can just these are the rules. And when you 160 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: draw that bright line, the kids know what the expectations are. 161 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: Research shows pretty clearly that children thrive when they understand 162 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: their expectations, and when we have high expectations, even with 163 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: kids who are neurodiversion. This isn't rocket surgery, I don't think. 164 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: Having said that, I was reading the article City and 165 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: it indicated things like getting kids to line up before class, 166 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: standing up when somebody enters the room, or pushing their 167 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: chairs in. I mean, this stuff sounds especially for primary school. 168 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: It sounds really basic. Do the political leaders, do the 169 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: education gurus really think that getting kids to line up 170 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: in two straight lines outside of a classroom is going 171 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: to move the needle. 172 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: I think that this is one of the things that 173 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: they've found in the UK, that these sorts of things 174 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: have moved the needle because it is changing the way 175 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: that kids are behaving in the classroom and outside of 176 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: the classroom, because it's not just all about them doing 177 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: whatever they want whenever they want to do it. It's actually 178 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: about them becoming subserving and could you say to the group, 179 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: to the group dynamic. And there has been a lot 180 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: of pushback from certain parents who say, don't treat my 181 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: kid like a convict or don't treat my kid like 182 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: a prisoner while they're lining up, But again you go 183 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: back to the way, you know, little preppies on the 184 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: first week. Often the teachers are relying on those sorts 185 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: of basic things because they need to sort of show 186 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: the kids that this is a very different place. You 187 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: can't behave like you do at home, and so that 188 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: these rules are sort of brought in. I think a 189 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: lot of teachers and kids are just crying out for 190 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: calm that they're sick. 191 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: Of the chaos, a sense that regardless of what happens here, Susie, 192 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: there's going to be phenomenal change over the next decade 193 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: in education. This is obviously part of it, whether it's 194 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: regressive or progressive. Time will tell thank you for doing 195 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: the journalism you do, Thanks for sharing this or as 196 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: your share, and thanks for filling us in on this 197 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: new update that we'll roll out across Australian schools beginning 198 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. 199 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: Yes, certainly, Way and New South Wales have already started 200 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: implementing some of these curriculum materials and a little bit 201 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: up to the individual schools to see how they use 202 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: it and what they want to do, and this will 203 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: continue in other states throughout this year, so we certainly 204 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: should see some differences from the startup next year. 205 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: Suzi O'Brian, author journalists for The Herald Sign and a 206 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: range of other publications. Absolute delight to have you on 207 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: the podcast again. Thanks for generously sharing your time and 208 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: filling us in anytime. 209 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: Justin thank you. 210 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from 211 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you 212 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: would like more information about this story, we will link 213 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: to it in the show notes. And for more information 214 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: about making you family happier helping them to thrive, please 215 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: visit us at happy families dot com dot au