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Speaker 1: What does it take to make someone give up on

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Speaker 1: their dream? Which straw is it that finally breaks the

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Speaker 1: camel's back? For Hugh van Kylenberg, a simple but critical

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Speaker 1: mistake in his calendar almost spelt the end of his company,

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Speaker 1: The Resilience Project before it had truly begun. But more

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Speaker 1: about that later. You might be familiar with Hugh through

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Speaker 1: his work with the Resilience Project because nearly half a

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Speaker 1: million school students in Australia are currently doing the Resilience

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Speaker 1: Project curriculum, and about the same number of adults are

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Speaker 1: doing it too. You might have also come across Hugh

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Speaker 1: through his brilliant podcast The Imperfects, where he speaks to

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Speaker 1: high profile people who share their struggles and imperfections. Now,

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Speaker 1: given Hughes work, you're probably expecting a chat about how

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Speaker 1: Hugh stays resilient, but instead we cover all sorts of

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Speaker 1: other things, like how he builds a rapport super quickly

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Speaker 1: with people, what the major turning points for the growth

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Speaker 1: of the Resilience Project were, and how he minds his

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Speaker 1: life for great stories to share with his audiences. Because

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Speaker 1: Hugh really is a master storyteller. My name is doctor

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Speaker 1: amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of

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Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work

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Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best work.

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Speaker 1: So Hugh had had a shocker of a morning on

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Speaker 1: the day that we recorded this interview. But having a

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Speaker 1: one on one chat in a studio is really nothing

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Speaker 1: compared to the stadiums of several thousand people that Hugh

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Speaker 1: would normally address as part of his job. So I

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Speaker 1: was keen to know how does he get himself into

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Speaker 1: the headspace he really needs to be in when he's

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Speaker 1: just not feeling it.

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Speaker 2: I've got so many stories on that. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: grew up on. I mean I built the Resonience Project.

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Speaker 2: It started off doing presentations in primary schools because as

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Speaker 2: a primary school teacher and I thought I can do

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Speaker 2: good presentations to primary school kids. That's an audience I'm

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Speaker 2: used to and I know how to engage them. And

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Speaker 2: so that's how it started going to primary schools and

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Speaker 2: it grew so well, I was going to say so quickly.

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Speaker 2: Didn't grow so quickly, but it got to a point

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Speaker 2: after a few years where I was doing four or

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Speaker 2: five one hour presentations a day to huge audiences, so

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Speaker 2: I'd go like it was ridiculous. I just couldn't say

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Speaker 2: no because I'd had two years where no one was

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Speaker 2: interested that the thought of saying no to people, it

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Speaker 2: just was so I'm not doing that. I'm just going

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Speaker 2: to say yes to everyone. And I would say ninety

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Speaker 2: percent of the presentations I did, I turned up in

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Speaker 2: a mood of just I can't do this. I've just

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Speaker 2: got nothing here. But there was no method or anything.

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Speaker 2: I did. It is my favorite thing in the world

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Speaker 2: to do. I know it's a weird thing, but public

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Speaker 2: speaking is. I just love it. Ever since I was

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Speaker 2: a kid at school, not very primary school it terrified me,

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Speaker 2: but in secondary school I looked for opportunities to do

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Speaker 2: it because I just loved it. So I think I'd

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Speaker 2: often start. I'd get up on stage in front of

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Speaker 2: I don't know what was the last one I did.

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Speaker 2: We're so up in cans A few weeks ago we

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Speaker 2: had all these schools bust into the Performing Arts Center

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Speaker 2: in Cans. So it was about twenty five hundred nine

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Speaker 2: to twelve year olds were coming in and it was

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Speaker 2: the third one for the day. It was so hot

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Speaker 2: the air conditioning had stopped working in this and it

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Speaker 2: was Cannes. It was so hot, and i'd been on

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Speaker 2: the phone to my wife. We'd been chatting about stuff

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Speaker 2: with our kids. She was having a really rough time.

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Speaker 2: She's very pregnant. And I felt so bad that I

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Speaker 2: wasn't at home. I just I was so down to myself,

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Speaker 2: going I shouldn't have done this. I should be at

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Speaker 2: home with Penny and the kids. And as I'm on

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Speaker 2: the phone, I'm watching all these kids just walking into

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Speaker 2: the hall and I didn't do anything. I think it

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Speaker 2: was about probably two or three minutes in. I just

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Speaker 2: saw a kid who was sort of he wasn't near

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Speaker 2: a fun he was kind of sitting in the middle

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Speaker 2: some and I just looked at him and I remember thinking,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, I don't know what this kid's story is,

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Speaker 2: but he clearly needs this right now. And I kind

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Speaker 2: of in my head was thinking, you're presenting for this kid,

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Speaker 2: and there's two thy and five hundred kids here. Maybe

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Speaker 2: he's the only one who get something out of this,

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Speaker 2: but he needs this right now. And it did, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't. There's nothing I did consciously to go, come on,

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Speaker 2: switch on, you need to I got up there begrudgingly.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I hope that people in kens doon't

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Speaker 2: hear me say this. But I was like, I can't.

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Speaker 2: I don't have the energy for this. But then I

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Speaker 2: saw this one kid, and you never know. There's the

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Speaker 2: thing about podcasting which you probably find you never know

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Speaker 2: the impact you're having. I don't think you really know.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's sometimes I bum into people who say

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Speaker 2: I've listened to every episode and I needed this so

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Speaker 2: much in my life, and if I didn't bump to them,

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Speaker 2: I would have known that. So I think sometimes it

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Speaker 2: helps to remind yourself of the people who potentially you

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Speaker 2: know I've I've been going back many years. I was

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Speaker 2: much younger when I started it, and I did have

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Speaker 2: more energy. Naturally, I'd noticed now as a forty two

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Speaker 2: year old that it's it can tack it. It's a

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Speaker 2: young person and game I think public speaking at that volume.

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Speaker 2: But for me, I think it's just trying to identify you.

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Speaker 2: I think it do you know what it is? I'm

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Speaker 2: just I'm stumbling around my answer a bit here, but

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Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's coming back to your why,

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Speaker 2: like why you're doing it, because for me, my why

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Speaker 2: is to help people to feel happier. And I think,

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Speaker 2: no matter how exhausted I am or whatever day I've had,

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Speaker 2: I'm very connected with my why, like why I'm doing this?

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Speaker 2: And I think I didn't think to myself, come on

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Speaker 2: to you, what's your why? Why are you doing this?

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Speaker 2: But I saw a kid who looked like they just

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Speaker 2: needed it so desperately. There was a ten year old

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Speaker 2: who had tears streaming down their face, you know, like

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Speaker 2: and that's a big thing for a ten year old

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Speaker 2: to do in front of all their peers. And I

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Speaker 2: just remember thinking that, kids, why I'm here today? Like

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Speaker 2: that that's, you know, that got me through that presentation.

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Speaker 2: So I guess it's a strong connection with you why.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting what you say about your why,

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Speaker 1: and that really shines through in your work that I've

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Speaker 1: seen of your work, that you are very connected to it.

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Speaker 1: And I feel connected to my why. But I still

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Speaker 1: have many moments and days and engagements where I'll be

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Speaker 1: doing speaking or something that requires me to be in

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Speaker 1: a certain state and I'll just be so in my

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Speaker 1: own head and focused on me and not on the audience.

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Speaker 1: So practically speaking, how how do you stay in touch

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Speaker 1: with your why when you know mentally you're struggling.

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Speaker 2: That's such a good question. I think sometimes I have

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Speaker 2: to be honest. I don't always do it. I had

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Speaker 2: a corporate presentation for a group of people I won't

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Speaker 2: say where they're from, but before that, so I got

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Speaker 2: there at six in the morning because they were finishing

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Speaker 2: night shift and they'd been working since ten at night

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Speaker 2: and they were a group of tradees. And one of

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Speaker 2: them said to me as I was about to start,

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Speaker 2: he said, hells this go for mate, And I said

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Speaker 2: it's an hour and he said, do it in half

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Speaker 2: an hour, and just like walk off. Another guy walked

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Speaker 2: past and said I just said, now I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be sleeping through this, and other go I can't repeat

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Speaker 2: the language, but another guy it was just and I

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Speaker 2: just thought, I don't want to do this, like I

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Speaker 2: just don't want to be here. And it was awful,

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Speaker 2: Like it went for an hour, it felt like three

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Speaker 2: hours for me, and there was no point where I

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Speaker 2: was thinking, come on, get in touch with you. Why,

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Speaker 2: why are you doing this? You're trying to help someone.

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Speaker 2: I just I'm sure there were people there who In fact,

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Speaker 2: I know there were people there who needed it and

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Speaker 2: by the end we're benefiting from it. But I was

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Speaker 2: just thinking the whole time, I just don't want to

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Speaker 2: do this. So there are times, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to make it sound like every time I get up

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Speaker 2: and perform it's like I'm in touch with my whye

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Speaker 2: no matter what, I can get through this. There are

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Speaker 2: times when I really struggle as well. There's a thing

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Speaker 2: I do I've noticed a lot, which again it's it's

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Speaker 2: a subconscious thing. I never deliberately sat down and went

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Speaker 2: this is a good thing to do. But before I present,

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Speaker 2: I'll often watch the people come in, and I'll watch

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Speaker 2: their body language, and I'll try and identify people that

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Speaker 2: I think are going to really enjoy it or really

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Speaker 2: need it and really benefit from it, and I sort

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Speaker 2: of focus on them because it's very easy to focus

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Speaker 2: on people. I mean, I don't know how relatable this

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Speaker 2: is for people who don't present, but you'll see some

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Speaker 2: people come in and you can tell from the start

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Speaker 2: they just don't want to be that event. This is

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Speaker 2: this is what work, you know, corporate stuff. They've been

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Speaker 2: told they have to do it, and you can see

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Speaker 2: them their body language and and just going what is

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Speaker 2: this about? And while am I listening to this guy?

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Speaker 2: Why am I going to listen to this guy? But

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Speaker 2: then you can also see people walk in who who

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Speaker 2: you just know desperately need it, and so I will

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Speaker 2: focus on them before I get up, and I just

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Speaker 2: think this is fair. Yeah, I think I often in

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Speaker 2: my head, I'm almost like dedicating it to a group

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Speaker 2: of people in the audience that I know will need it.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's a little bit different when I'm doing

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Speaker 2: the big sort of shows around the country. I can't

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Speaker 2: see anyone, It's like, but everyone's bought tickets to that,

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Speaker 2: so I'm assuming they want to be there. So I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty happy that I feel like over that. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's I think it's just I'll identify people that

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Speaker 2: really need it. I guess, well, I think need it.

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Speaker 1: You're really great at storytelling, and I can imagine from

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Speaker 1: the type of work that you do there are probably

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Speaker 1: stories that you've told hundreds of hundreds of times, and

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Speaker 1: I imagine when you're creating new keynote speaking or show material,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure, I think, you know, to

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Speaker 1: create you great stories that are going to have an

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Speaker 1: equal amount of impact in some way. What's your process

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Speaker 1: for crafting a story and you know, thinking about the

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Speaker 1: key moments.

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Speaker 2: It's a lovely point you bring up. I think a

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Speaker 2: really important thing for anyone who presents as part of

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Speaker 2: their job, whether it's you know, you're doing PowerPoint presentations

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Speaker 2: at work. I know from doing this for you know,

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Speaker 2: three or four a day for the last ten years.

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Speaker 2: Not every day Monday to Friday, that is, but I

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Speaker 2: don't do it on the weekends. But I know from

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Speaker 2: when I'm doing my presentations and my talks the point

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Speaker 2: that people, so people will lean forward and they listen

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Speaker 2: when you're telling stories. The second you start telling them

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Speaker 2: statistics or I'll give them practical strategies, that's when they

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Speaker 2: get their pen and payper and start writing, because they

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Speaker 2: know they'll forget that stuff. People don't forget stories. We

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Speaker 2: love stories of human beings. We love them and we listen.

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Speaker 2: We don't know. No one's ever taken notes when i'm

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Speaker 2: you know, no one's saying, oh, his sister got sick

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Speaker 2: when he was fourteen, and then she went to hospital

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Speaker 2: and then he went to India, and no one's taking

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Speaker 2: notes for that. But they're taking notes. So the more

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Speaker 2: stories you can put into any kind of presentation you're

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Speaker 2: doing that. I just it is the most engaging part.

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Speaker 2: So stories are crucial that they're just and that's what

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Speaker 2: the Resilience Project is built on. It's it's storytelling. That

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Speaker 2: that's all it is. We're just story after story after story.

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Speaker 2: This is going to sound really strange. I don't and

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Speaker 2: I know this is an unusual way to do it.

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Speaker 2: I don't really have When something happens to me, I'll

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Speaker 2: go and talk My wife and I have the exact

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Speaker 2: same sense of humor, and so I'll go and tell

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Speaker 2: my wife the story of what happened during the day.

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Speaker 2: When something happens with my with my phone, I've got

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Speaker 2: a section which it says talks podcasts and books, And

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Speaker 2: if something happens, I'll just what's a good example. I'm

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Speaker 2: putting myself on the spot here. Well, that's right. So

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Speaker 2: yesterday when I went to get petrol, the guy next

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Speaker 2: to me, so the guy behind me, as someone else

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Speaker 2: if I could fill up their petrol tank whle they

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Speaker 2: went and did some shopping in the and I was like,

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Speaker 2: does it go serious? And he said, mate, I've got

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Speaker 2: someone I actual He said, can you fill up my

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Speaker 2: tank while I'm just and the guy's like, he's serious anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: can you just anyway? I guess. So somehow got this

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Speaker 2: guy to fill up his petrol tank while he went

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Speaker 2: in to the shopping. Now that may not feature in

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Speaker 2: anything I do, podcast, book, or but I think every

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Speaker 2: single day stuff we all see stuff that happens that

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Speaker 2: he's either funny or interesting or weird or emotional or

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Speaker 2: moving or I was on the way to work the

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Speaker 2: other day and I there was a guy on Alexander

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Speaker 2: Parade in Melbourne, which is five lanes, and so that's

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty common place where people will wash your windscreen.

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Speaker 2: Money for wash your windscreen four money is what I

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Speaker 2: meant to say. And this guy was walking down the

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Speaker 2: middle and everyone was saying no to him, and I

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Speaker 2: was I felt really bad, but I didn't have any coins,

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Speaker 2: so I didn't want hm to say no. I want

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Speaker 2: to tell him why. So I wound the window down

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Speaker 2: and I said, and I said, sorry matter, I haven't haven't.

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Speaker 2: I haven't actually got any coins on me, and he

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Speaker 2: didn't hear me, so he came right over to me.

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Speaker 2: He said, so it was that, and his head was

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Speaker 2: pretty much almost like it was right at the window

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Speaker 2: and the window was down, and I, for some reason

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Speaker 2: I wanted to prove I didn't have coins. So I

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Speaker 2: lifted up the center console. I said, look, I don't

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Speaker 2: have any coins. I lifted it up, and sitting on

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Speaker 2: top of all the pile stuff was a twenty dollars note.

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Speaker 2: And he looked at it and I looked at it,

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Speaker 2: and we said I looked at each other. It was

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Speaker 2: this really awkward thing, and I was like, I guess

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Speaker 2: I don't need this twenty dollars, and so I gave

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Speaker 2: it to him. But the second the second I gave

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Speaker 2: it to him, tears just streaming down his face. And

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Speaker 2: he said, I will wash your windscreen twice. I said no, once,

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Speaker 2: it's fine. He said I will wash it and so anyway,

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Speaker 2: he washed it thoroughly and then he is I said

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Speaker 2: that's enough, mane, I'll do it again. And he went

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Speaker 2: around the other side of the car and he covered

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Speaker 2: it in so and then the lights went green. Every

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Speaker 2: I started to beat me. So I had to drive

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Speaker 2: off with soap like my wish. I couldn't see where

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Speaker 2: it's gone anyway, I just I remember when I when

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Speaker 2: I got home, I'd sort of wrote that in my

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Speaker 2: phone under talks. I put it in I think potentially talks. Now.

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Speaker 2: It may never pop up in a talk, but I

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Speaker 2: look over it every couple of weeks. I look over

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Speaker 2: the stories I've put in there, or they're just under

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Speaker 2: the headings, and just think, where could this work in

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Speaker 2: the podcast setting for the Imperfect? Could it work at

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Speaker 2: a talk? Could it work with my next book? I

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Speaker 2: don't really know, but I just have them there and

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Speaker 2: I just think about them. I tell Penny this and

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Speaker 2: I sort of gauge her reaction to see how she responds,

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Speaker 2: because she's very honest. And then if Penny laughs a lot,

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Speaker 2: what happens is they go into this part of my

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Speaker 2: brain where this is such a weird analogy. But for

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Speaker 2: people who've been to London before, you will know. If

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Speaker 2: you're anywhere near sort of Heathrow, planes will circle, They

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Speaker 2: go around and circle, and then they're called in to land,

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Speaker 2: and every I think it's every minute and a half.

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Speaker 2: I went to England to play cricket and I remember

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Speaker 2: playing a ground near near Heathrow, and for the whole

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Speaker 2: day it was like I said, yeah, every ninety seconds

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Speaker 2: a plane will land, But you can see them circling

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Speaker 2: London on a clear day and they land. That's how

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Speaker 2: I feel like when I'm on stage. I have all

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Speaker 2: these stories just circling, and when it's appropriate, I'll bring

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Speaker 2: one of them into bring one of them into Land.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know which stories I'm going to tell.

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Speaker 2: I never know. It's just looking at the audience or

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Speaker 2: trying to feel what the audience is into. I've got

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Speaker 2: three or four standard stories that I'll always open with,

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Speaker 2: and they're all very different stories, and I'll which story

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Speaker 2: resonates the most with the audience. And then let's say

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Speaker 2: it's a story about a guy. When I was doing

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Speaker 2: a guy. When I was doing a I was doing

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Speaker 2: his Zoom presentation once and a guy tried to write

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Speaker 2: a message to his mate in the Zoom prison, but

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Speaker 2: he accidentally had it on public. There was four hundred

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Speaker 2: traders in this presentation. The guy said, hey, johno, who

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Speaker 2: does this poke remind you of? And we also know

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Speaker 2: went oh shit, my look alikes are never good. And

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Speaker 2: I tried to move it so I couldn't see Jono's answer,

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Speaker 2: but John Ooh was really quick, and Jho wrote, this

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Speaker 2: guy is a dead ringer for Steve Bashemi. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you know Steve A. Shemi, but he's famous

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Speaker 2: for playing ugly people, and that's his role. That's what

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Speaker 2: it says on Wikipedia. Yeah, villains and ugly people. That's

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Speaker 2: his role. So anyway, I saw that that's one of

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Speaker 2: my opening stories, and I will if that gets a

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Speaker 2: really good response. I've got a whole lot of self

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Speaker 2: deprecating stories that I think this audience will like, there's

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Speaker 2: a story about my sister's mental illness. And if that

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Speaker 2: seems to get like because there's this there's this noise

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Speaker 2: people make when they respond to it, it's like this, oh,

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Speaker 2: when they're really feeling that part of the story, the

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Speaker 2: heart break of that story, my sister's mental illness. If

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's really resonated with that group, I've

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Speaker 2: got a whole lot of stories that a lot, a

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Speaker 2: lot deeper than a Steve mashem you look alike, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I just have these stories that are I've written

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Speaker 2: them down, I've tom of the penny and if they

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Speaker 2: pass a penny test, then they're in my brain somewhere

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Speaker 2: and I'll bring him in to land at the right time.

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Speaker 2: I guess now, that's not a very reliable example, so

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't recommend people do that. I've just had again

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Speaker 2: to use a flying reference, which I've never done ever before.

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Speaker 2: But I've had that many flying hours of being up

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Speaker 2: on stage presenting, you know, And I learned with kids,

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Speaker 2: which is which is the toughest, the toughest audience you'll

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Speaker 2: ever have. So it works with kids, and now I

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Speaker 2: can do that with adult it's a bit better. I'm

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Speaker 2: giving you a long answers today.

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Speaker 1: Hon Gosh, that's amazing though, So you're not necessarily following

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Speaker 1: a script from beginning to end.

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Speaker 2: I never never, I grew up watching I grew up

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Speaker 2: watching Billy Connolly, the Scottish comedian who Mum and dad

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Speaker 2: were obsessed with him, and I realized they used him

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Speaker 2: as a way of I mean, with so much pain

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Speaker 2: and heartache in my family, with my sister's mental illness

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Speaker 2: when she was really see in and out of hospital,

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Speaker 2: and the one thing that would make Mum and dad

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Speaker 2: smile was Billy Connolly. We had these video cassettes and

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Speaker 2: Mum and Dad woud stick him in probably once or

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Speaker 2: twice a week, and would sit on the couch and

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Speaker 2: I would watch him, and then I've watched Mom and

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Speaker 2: Dad and think, how is this possible? They were in

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Speaker 2: tears like an hour ago, now they're in tears are laughter.

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Speaker 2: This guy's unbelievable, and his format was very He would

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Speaker 2: get on stage and he just tells story after story

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Speaker 2: after story, and he often will get lost and say

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Speaker 2: what was I talking about? And they'll say, like, don't

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Speaker 2: why am I telling you this story? And They're just

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Speaker 2: things that pop into his head. So I grew up

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Speaker 2: on that, and I think, you know, from a psychologists

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Speaker 2: point of view, I just always wanted Mum and Dad

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Speaker 2: to feel happy. So I think I've mimicked his style

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Speaker 2: because I just saw what he did for Mum and Dad,

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Speaker 2: and I as a big fan of his. I love

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Speaker 2: how when I go to his shows, I think I

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Speaker 2: don't know what he's going to say. He doesn't know

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Speaker 2: what he's going to say. So this is a unique experience,

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Speaker 2: and so I've tried to mimic that it's not overly relateable.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't recommend people get out there and go, well,

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Speaker 2: let's see what stories are. I've done it for many

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Speaker 2: years with because when I started with primary school kids,

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Speaker 2: I was this story, then this story, then this story,

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Speaker 2: and I use photos as my people go how do

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Speaker 2: you remember all that stuff? I use photos in the background,

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Speaker 2: the photos of my prompts to get me through. There's

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Speaker 2: like there's a vague structure, but yeah, it's for people

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Speaker 2: who are going to spend time presenting. I'd recommend when

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Speaker 2: something happens to throughout. I mean, every day something has you.

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Speaker 2: It's you go home and you tell your partner about

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Speaker 2: something that happened. If it stands out as something that

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Speaker 2: was you know, could could somehow relate to what you

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Speaker 2: talk about, or what you're presenting about, or your work

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00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 2: or what you're interested in, just write it down the

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Speaker 2: note section on your phone and come back and visit

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Speaker 2: every now and again. Tell a story to your partner

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Speaker 2: or your housemates, or tell it to your friends and

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Speaker 2: see how it goes, and you'll get better at telling it.

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Speaker 2: You'll get better at telling it.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the imperfect your podcast, and

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Speaker 1: I was saying to you before we started recording. I've

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Speaker 1: known of it for a while, but I only first

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Speaker 1: listened to it a couple of months ago, which treated

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Speaker 1: me to reach out because I've just become obsessed with it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's so I'm going through the back catalog,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not actually up to date with the most

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Speaker 1: recent releases. I highly recommend it though. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things I've heard you say which I found really

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Speaker 1: unusual because I don't have this as an approach. Granted,

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Speaker 1: topics are really different. Like you're talking to your guests

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Speaker 1: about really personal personal moments, moments where they're they're sharing

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Speaker 1: things that you know, I guess you know, are quite vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: quite exposing for them things they probably haven't talked about

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Speaker 1: in many or any other places. I would imagine in

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Speaker 1: the work that they do. Where does I talk about

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Speaker 1: work and productivity? Let's less personal. But you said that

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Speaker 1: you will always meet up with a guest that you

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Speaker 1: don't know for a coffee before I can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about that and that that initial coffee where you

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Speaker 1: are I guess building that trust and report.

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Speaker 2: I can give you a great example from yesterday. So

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Speaker 2: I caught up yesterday with Libby Trickett, the full time

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Speaker 2: gold medal swimming legend, and so she came down from Brisbane,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like with the stuff we talk about,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm asking Libby to broadcast to a lot

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Speaker 2: of people her darkest moments, in her toughest and she

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Speaker 2: spoke about some really full on stuff yesterday. I feel

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Speaker 2: like she needs to know that I really care. I mean,

429
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 2: I've never met her before, but I do really care

430
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 2: about her experience on our podcast. I do care about

431
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 2: her and how she comes across and the whole experience

432
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 2: for her. So I feel like an hour we had lunch,

433
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,640
Speaker 2: No sorry, I had lunch by myself because she came

434
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 2: down from Brisbane and she's got three girls and she

435
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 2: was so excited to get away from the house for

436
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 2: the day. So she got there early, had lunch byself,

437
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,920
Speaker 2: sat there in this cafe and Melbourne and just had

438
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,160
Speaker 2: and then I turned up. She had a smoothie while

439
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 2: I had lunch, but we talked about a whole lot

440
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: of stuff that we just built. This really nice after.

441
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 2: She's got the most beautiful smile. That's sort of what

442
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,400
Speaker 2: she was famous for. Was this smile. This like quintessential Aussie,

443
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,479
Speaker 2: you know, swim my blonde hair, this lovely smile. It's

444
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 2: it's such as I describe it. It's like a very

445
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 2: there's a word I'm trying to think of. But I've

446
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 2: had four and a half hour sleep last night, come

447
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 2: to me during this podcast and coming.

448
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 1: Down, I'll just drop the.

449
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 2: Word in disarming, disarming. There you go. It's just this

450
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,119
Speaker 2: like but anyway, in that hour, I felt like we

451
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 2: built this really nice rapport that when we went and

452
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 2: sat down and recorded and I asked her about the

453
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 2: darkest moments of pairing and her parenting and her postoninal depression,

454
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 2: it wasn't like I was doing it for content. We

455
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 2: had an hour, It's not a huge amount of time,

456
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: but there was an hour of like, I get a

457
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: feel for what this person's like. He's not doing this

458
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 2: to have great content. He's doing this because he wants

459
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 2: other people to hear this story, because it will help

460
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: other people. And I think people don't sort of care,

461
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 2: I said, old saying, but as a teacher, always been

462
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: friend of mine met people don't care what you know

463
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: until they know that you care. And I feel like

464
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 2: I'm always trying to you know. The first one I

465
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: ever did it was Missy Higgins and caught up with

466
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 2: Missy Higgins, and I was so nervous because just such

467
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,879
Speaker 2: a huge Missy Higgins fan. But I was I remember

468
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 2: going there, going I just wanted to know that I'm

469
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 2: not trying to get a story. I'm not trying to

470
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 2: find I don't want to be a clickbait type interview.

471
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: I don't. I just wanted to know that this is

472
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 2: coming from a very genuine place and it's a safe

473
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 2: place for her. So and then when we caught up,

474
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 2: it was the first interview I've ever done in my life.

475
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: I just remember during the interview thinking, oh, my gosh,

476
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we caught up beforehand, because I would

477
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: feel I would feel a bit uncomfortable. She was sharing

478
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 2: the stuff around her anxiety and her depression just without

479
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 2: like completely cold, never met before. So I felt like,

480
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: I do feel like it's it's when you're having conversations

481
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 2: like that, it's nice to have.

482
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: That what are you doing though practically to elicit that

483
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: that comfort? Oh great question those people have with you.

484
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: And it's funny because like I would just sort of

485
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 1: comment because we've been in a room together now for

486
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, half an hour or something like that,

487
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 1: and you're like you come across as a very sort

488
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 1: of warm and open kind of person, very naturally, and

489
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: I imagine that a lot of it is just simply

490
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: how you are like unconscious. But if you were to

491
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: unpack it practically, what are you doing?

492
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: Okay, that's such a good question. I don't know. Let

493
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: me I want to do yesterday with Libby. So so

494
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 2: with Libby yesterday. I don't know. You'd have to ask

495
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 2: her if this is a good thing to do. But

496
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: I talked at her for the first fifteen minutes about

497
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: how disastrously bad my last two weeks have been, so

498
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: I had it as this. I went to So I

499
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: had a week with the Queens and State of Origin team.

500
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: I was on their camp for their build up for

501
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 2: State of Origin one, which was a really exciting thing

502
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 2: to do. I've been like ted Lass, so I have

503
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 2: no idea about the sport though, so that was a

504
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: bit of a strange experience. But I then went flew

505
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 2: to Newcastle and then to Woo and Gong to do

506
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 2: two shows. And I've had this assist on my eyelid

507
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 2: for about a month and I keep thinking, when I

508
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: have time, I'll go and see someone about it, but

509
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 2: I just haven't had time to go and get an appointment. Anyway.

510
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: I woke up having been away from home for a week.

511
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 2: Penny had covid Elsie, my daughter had COVID. Penny was

512
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: eight months pregnant, and I wasn't overly popular fair enough

513
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: for not being at home, and I said I'll be

514
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 2: home in a few days. Of a few days, and

515
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 2: I woke up in Sydney having done a Newcastle Sorry

516
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: the wool Ongoing show the night before, and I couldn't

517
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: open my eye. It was stuck closed. I couldn't open it.

518
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: I said, what is going I literally was trying to

519
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 2: prize it open and I couldn't open it. I remember thinking,

520
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: I think this is bad and live Nation on my

521
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: touring that that look after me when I'm on tour,

522
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 2: and they have got this rock doctor who just like

523
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: he just he I didn't eve need to have appoint

524
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 2: with it. I took a photo of it like me

525
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 2: trying mine and send it to him And next minute

526
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 2: I've got an appointment with an eye specialist. Turned up

527
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 2: with his eye specialist who was on the way to

528
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: play golf. He'd like he was in his golf clothes

529
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: and he said, I'm really sorry. I'm going to have

530
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: to give you four of the most painful injections you'll

531
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: ever have in your life into your eyeland. Oh my god,

532
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm not great with pain. And I just my hands

533
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 2: started shaking straight away, and he said, and then I'm

534
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 2: going to now you might have edit this out. I

535
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: don't know, just in case we heads up. If they

536
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: haven't edited this out, and you're squirmish, squirmish is that

537
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: a word? Squamish? Squirmish? If you squirmish, don't listen to this.

538
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: He said, Then I'm going to turn your eelid inside out,

539
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: clamp it. I'm going to get a I'm going to

540
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: get a scalpel, and I'm going to cut all the

541
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 2: way along inside of your eyelid and scrape everything out fromhim. So,

542
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: because all your glands are blocked up, I'm going to

543
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: scrape out your glands. And I said, ah, that sounds awful,

544
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: and he said it's extremely uncomfortable. And I said, I'm

545
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: going to do a show tonight and he said, yeah,

546
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: I don't really care. I need to get this out now.

547
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: And so I went through the procedure. I had this.

548
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: So the first two injections into my I remember going,

549
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 2: oh gosh, that really hurt. And then he and I

550
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: was like, that's one of them. He's a right that

551
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: is one of the most and then he said, okay,

552
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 2: so this next one coming up inside your elid, this

553
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: is how this is as bad as it gets. And

554
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: it was, and I was trying to look away, but

555
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: it's like and he said, look, please look at the needle,

556
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: please look the nets. Anyway, so why am I doing

557
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: this story? So he scrapes it out and does that,

558
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: and then I had an eye patch on all that afternoon.

559
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: I was in so much pain. Got on just before

560
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 2: I go on stage, I took the I took the

561
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: eye patch off, blood went everywhere and as I go

562
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: on stage in Newcastleven cleaned my head. I'm up on

563
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: stage and I'm thinking, oh, I don't feel well. I

564
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: feel quite sick, not like nauses. I felt like aches

565
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: and pains and feverish. And I, for some reason my

566
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 2: brain was like, it's because of what you went through today.

567
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: You're a bit traumatized. As I'm talking, I'm like, no,

568
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: I feel realistic. Got off stage, went straight back to

569
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: the hotel. When wake up feeling so sick, how to

570
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: fly back to Melbourne. As I'm sitting at the airport,

571
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: I'm about to get the plane, I went, hang on

572
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: a minute, oh, no, this could be COVID. And I

573
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: hadn't thought about it because I was so traumatized. Miss

574
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: I thing, and so I was like, if I do it,

575
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: hang on flies but everyone's getting on the plane. I

576
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: was like, I don't ever, I can't. There's no tests here.

577
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: How do I do a test? Is this he responsible

578
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: to get a plane here? Now I bead I'll be fine.

579
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: It will not be COVID. Got on a plane, sneeze

580
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: the whole way like I was wearing two masks, poor lady.

581
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: I get in the car and I did a test

582
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: when I got it on the way home, and I

583
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: had COVID. So Penny had COVID, Elsie had COVID. I

584
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: think Benji had COVID. I had COVID. We had assessments

585
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: for out Sun with his all this stuff he's going through,

586
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 2: and it was like the worst. This is a long

587
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: story again, but anyway, I told Livy trigg at this

588
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: story right well, soon as we got there, she said

589
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: how I And I said, I've been better and I

590
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: told her that story. Looking back, it's not why, but

591
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: looking back on it, maybe it builds some kind of

592
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: like oh, like someone's empathy or just like I'm very

593
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: keen always when I meet people to I'm worried people

594
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: have this persona of like, oh, he's been a successful

595
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 2: public speaker. He's like a very confident and successful I

596
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 2: don't that's not me. Like, I don't want people to

597
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: ever think that. I don't want people to think I'm

598
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: want a pedestal. Ever, I don't ever think I'm you know,

599
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: I don't look at myself and go, Wow, what a

600
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: successful person. I don't think that. I don't I want

601
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: people to know that. And I think I'll tell people

602
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: about my failure's a lot of my stuff ups and

603
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: my hardships, and I think that maybe builds empathy. I

604
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: don't know. But anyway, we got on really well. She

605
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: shared some stories of stuff that she was struggling with.

606
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: So again I'm doing to make a very long story short.

607
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: I think being vulnerable with people. I'm so sorry about

608
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 2: being vulnerable with people. That's how you do it. And

609
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: I when we caught up, we talked about how hard

610
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: we find parenting, the struggles of parenting. I remember catching

611
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: up with I was on Travis Poke, the a for footballer,

612
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: and we we I mean I actually did already know him,

613
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: but we caught up just to talk about it before anyway,

614
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: and it was either zooms during lockdown, but we talked

615
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: about Travis ha dad had passed away and we just

616
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: talked about that a lot, and I just listened. Mainly,

617
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: I can't relate to that, but it's it's vulnerability is

618
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: so connecting.

619
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: It reminds me. I heard Tim Ferriss talk about how

620
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: he starts his uh his like interviews, this is like

621
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: before he hits record, and he said he'll deliberately share

622
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: something that shows vulnerability to build that instant rapport with

623
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: So that's that's interesting.

624
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: But I think it's what I've done throughout my entire life,

625
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: I think, and I don't know where I learned it,

626
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: but I feel like I've always I just feel like

627
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: it's just a deeply connecting thing. I've always shared way

628
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: too much. Whatever's in my heart. I just share with

629
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: everyone all the time. And I think that's a struggle

630
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: right now with what we're going through with our son

631
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: going through getting assessments done for what he's struggling with,

632
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: and my wife saying this is not We're not You're

633
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: not sharing this, you know, And I was like, yeah, no,

634
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: you're right, this is his story one day to tell,

635
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: but it's so and I so want to share it,

636
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: but it's not. It's his story, so I'm not going

637
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: to share it. But but I have this instinct to

638
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: want to share everything. I'm finding difficult. I don't know why,

639
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: but it's it's worked, especially with what we do professionally.

640
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: What I do professionally.

641
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can relate to that. Something I think about

642
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: quite a lot, having having been through a divorce, and

643
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: there's obviously two sides to every divorce. Is I want

644
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: to share it openly, but also I want to be

645
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: very respectful of my x and also going you know,

646
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: like one day, like Frankie has no interest in my podcast,

647
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: even though I try to tell her it's amazing and

648
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: it will help her at school in year three. But

649
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: I always I really struggle with that because I feel

650
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: like you don't hear too many people who have some

651
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: kind of a platform talking about something as horrible as

652
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: going through a divorce. And I feel like I've learned

653
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: so many lessons, but then I'm always I'm kind of

654
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: censoring myself, going what's appropriate and what's not appropriate?

655
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: How do you I've child with that quite a few

656
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: times I've been pulled up by a few people an

657
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: awful feeling. But as a couple of examples, I would

658
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: tell a story about a really well on individual who

659
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: heard me speak and had their back turned to me

660
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: for a lot of it. And I was sharing that

661
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: story and someone came up from their workplace and said,

662
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: as a sports person and said, that is someone professional

663
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: you're going to invite into our workspace and you're sharing

664
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: a story about and I get why you do it,

665
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: but it's unprofessional. And I thought, gosh, that's so true.

666
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: I used to just it was a throwaway line I

667
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: just had about an ex partner of mine about it

668
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: was just a joke I was making about how I

669
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: used to do whatever she wanted because she was the

670
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: boss and so. And someone came up to me and

671
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: they didn't know my ex. But I said, I think

672
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: that's really unfair. I think it's really unfair that you

673
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: said that, and I was I hated that feedback, and

674
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 2: I said, I was thinking, what an idiot. Look, it's

675
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: none of their business. I don't get what the point was.

676
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: It's just a joke, I'm but I stopped saying it

677
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: and I realized it's because deep down I actually realized

678
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: that were right and I agreed with them. And so

679
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: that is a delicate one for me, and that I will.

680
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: I work with a lot of sports people who'll share

681
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 2: their stories with me, and I think I can't, thinking

682
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this should help so many kids if

683
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 2: I could share this. And early on when I was

684
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: doing this stuff, I just told their stories like I

685
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: just I would say, I've they're working with this person

686
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: and they've been going through this. I wouldn't tell the

687
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: details of it, but like a very high level version

688
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: of this person struggles with depression. And then and then

689
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: someone said to me once, Oh, that's so nice to

690
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: them to give you permission to share that story, and

691
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: I thought, oh geez, and I went, yeah, it's really nice.

692
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: And I thought, nah, do you know what they never did?

693
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: And I just went and said like and again, I

694
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: didn't give way too much, and I think I I

695
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 2: didn't even say the person that I said to who

696
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: they played for, and that I really well known play

697
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: It was almost obvious who it was. And I felt

698
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: like that was me in sort of hiding your identity,

699
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: but I wasn't really so I filed at that a lot,

700
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 2: and I think, I remember I've seen a psychologist. Well,

701
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: I did a lot. I haven't for a while, but

702
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: I need to with the third child coming up that

703
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: and I spoke to her about that at length, and

704
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: I said, I'm really struggling with this. I have these

705
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: great stories that I know will help people, but there

706
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: are other people's stories. And she said, what you need

707
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: to do is imagine that person's in the audience and

708
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: how did they feel. She said, It's as simple as that.

709
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: Because some of the people I can't ask for permission

710
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: because I don't I won't ever see them. Agin yea

711
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: someone come't to me after a talk and say, share

712
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: their story, and I'll think, oh my gosh, just extraordinary,

713
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: But I don't have their details to cat say, do

714
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: you mind if I share that? And she said, well,

715
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: just picture they were there watching you. How would they

716
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: feel about it? Are they comfort with your sharing that story?

717
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what I've used and it's changed

718
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: the way I present massively because I had a lady

719
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: come up to me. That's how I opened my second

720
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: book with the story. A lady came up to me

721
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: after one of my shows at the Convention Center, which

722
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: is a bit like twenty eight hundred people. And I

723
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: was doing a book signing for my first book, and

724
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: there was a lady waiting in the queue, and she

725
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: had six young adults there with her and it was

726
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: her turn. She said, you guys wait here, and she

727
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: came up to me and she just started crying and

728
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: she said, I had my last round of chemo today.

729
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: And she said, I don't have long left. I don't

730
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: have long left. But I brought my three kids and

731
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: their partners because I want them to embrace this stuff

732
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: when I'm no longer with them. Can you please sign

733
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: these books and tell them how much I love them all?

734
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: I was a really and I gave her really. We

735
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: had a long and very silent hug. She's very frail.

736
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: There wasn't much of her and her hair was literally

737
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: falling out, you know in the book when I sign it,

738
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: I remember and I didn't get I didn't get her details.

739
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: I never she just left and I remember, I think

740
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: I don't ever know her name, And it was it

741
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: was such a vulnerable moment that so I felt so

742
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: connected to her, and it inspired me to I was

743
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: pretty good. In two thousand and nineteen, I was so

744
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 2: exhausted at that point, but it just gave me so

745
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: much energy to keep going, knowing that it reaches people

746
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: like that. Anyway, I wrote that story up for my

747
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: second book, and I had this long thing of like,

748
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: do I I don't have a mission to share the story.

749
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: It's a very moving story. Her kids might read this.

750
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: I don't know if they're going to read the book

751
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: is this? And I had this my psychologist that just

752
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: pretend she's going to read this, she might be like,

753
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: she might read it so right in a way that

754
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: she would be very proud of. And so I wrote

755
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: it that way. And then amazingly, six months later I

756
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: got a the Resilience Project and an email of the

757
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: blue from her daughter who had read it and just said,

758
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 2: I just want to let you know very tragically, Mum

759
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: passed away three months just before we book came out.

760
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: We had tickets for your Large Loaves show and Gelong

761
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: but we couldn't go. But thank you for sharing mum

762
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: story in the way that you did. And she turns

763
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: out this lady's an incredible woman, incredible She set up

764
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: life surf, life saving programs for disabled kids around Australia

765
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: and she was in a remarkable woman. But again, long story.

766
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: But I think for me, it's about pretending those people

767
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: are in the audience. And when I pretend my ex

768
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: was in the audience, I went, no, she would hate

769
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: this story. It's so unfair to her because I'm sure

770
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: there was a reason she was like that a lot

771
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: of the time. You know, I need to be I

772
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 2: needed someone to really sort of control me. So yeah, anyway,

773
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: but again long answer.

774
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: We will be back with you in a moment talking

775
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: about how he built the Resilience Project to having almost

776
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: half a million school students doing his curriculum, and we

777
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: will dig into what some of the major turning points

778
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: were on that path to growth. If you're looking for

779
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: more tips to improve the way that you work, I

780
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things

781
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from

782
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: software and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings.

783
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot com.

784
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. I want to talk

785
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: about the Resilience Project, which is your business, and you

786
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: were saying before, you've got four hundred and fifty thousand

787
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: students across Australia doing the Resilience Project curriculum, and then

788
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: you've probably got an equal sized number of people working

789
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: in corporates doing the curriculum. And you started the business.

790
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: Was it twelve or thirteen years ago?

791
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 2: It's hard to answer the question because I didn't even

792
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: so I have no idea about business. I have absolutely

793
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: no idea. I'm the least business he type person to

794
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: ever come across, so I really have no idea. But

795
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: so when I started a business, I didn't even know

796
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: that's what I was doing. I said, I want to

797
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: stop teaching and I'm going to go and do talks

798
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: at schools. And people say, you're doing your own business.

799
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 2: I go, I know I'm doing that. I'm doing talks

800
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: at schools. I didn't even get I didn't even know

801
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: how to get an ABN. I didn't understand that. I

802
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: didn't so very steep learning curve. But I you're sorry,

803
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: I interrupted while you're asking the question. So what year

804
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: was that? What year did you start?

805
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: Not a business?

806
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 2: Two eleven was my Yeah, twenty eleven I started turning

807
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: up to schools and trying to do talks basically and talking.

808
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: Okay, So eleven years ago. I'm so impressed, having heard

809
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: of the Resilience Project and having read about the work

810
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: that you do, that you've grown to the scale that

811
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: you have with a relatively small team over a relatively

812
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: short period of time. And I'd love to know what

813
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: were what were the major turning points or tipping points

814
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: that you can kind of attribute back to doing something

815
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: that got to the next step for lack of growth.

816
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think a lot of people look at

817
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: it and think, gosh, it's just this huge overnight success.

818
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 2: It's just massive, and it's everywhere. But the first three

819
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: years were lonely, really lonely, and there was quite a

820
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: few times I tried to get out and tried to

821
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 2: applied for jobs elsewhere because I was just I hated

822
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: how lonely it was just me, and there were so

823
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: many no's and not many yeses, and it was just

824
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: so many setbacks after setback and stuffed up so many times.

825
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: I remember there's one point where I was thinking, I'm

826
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: pretty much done. I've been a year and a half

827
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: and I only had five schools booked for the year,

828
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: and it was just literally five presentations for the sitting

829
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: around at home in this like tiny bedroom in viz Roy,

830
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: I can't afford rent, and I'm just think, what on

831
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: earth am I doing. I was doing a lot of

832
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: emergency teaching to try and pawer bills, which is any

833
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: emergency teachers listening. It's a horrible existence, it really is.

834
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: And so I was quite down. But the biggest school

835
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: in Victoria, Hallibrey College, said would you come and speak

836
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: to all our year twelves. I said, We've got three

837
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: different campuses and you know this goes well, we might

838
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: roll out to other year levels. Huge opportunity, and I

839
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: booked it in and I spent the whole week preparing it,

840
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 2: and I was so excited about it, and I was thinking,

841
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: this is I was doing all these things I've like,

842
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: come with the hour, come of it. You know this

843
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: will be my moment, like, oh well, this will be

844
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 2: the moment that I look back on and go. I

845
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 2: really made it work from this day on, and Halo

846
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: Re signed on and all the other schools did. And

847
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: I remember sitting in my bedroom at my desk, pretending

848
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: I didn't know much to do at this point. But

849
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: the day before the talk and I got a phone

850
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: call from this guy is named Nick, I'll never forget him.

851
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: And the second I answered the phone, I knew it

852
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: was bad because I could hear hundreds of kids' voices

853
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 2: in the background. And he said, okay, he just wanted

854
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: you far off. We're just how far away are you?

855
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: And I said I'm sorry, as in for the presentation.

856
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: He said yeah, And I said so I was in tomorrow.

857
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: We're good for tomorrow and he laughed and said, no,

858
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: it's erously how far off you? And I said, I've

859
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: got in my calm. I'm not joking. I've got my

860
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: counts tomorrow. And he said, you are effing kidding me.

861
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: And he said, I've got three canvases bussed to a

862
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: location here. You telling me you're not coming And I

863
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: said I can be there in and I could get

864
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: there in an hour. And he said the bus is

865
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: leaving it now, mate, And he said, that's right. I

866
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: don't work what to do with fifteen hundred kids. Thanks mate,

867
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: and you hung up. And I'd never felt so sick

868
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: in my entire life. It is the worst. And I

869
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: was just and I looked in the emails and he

870
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: was right and stuffed up. That was with my mistake completely.

871
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: And then amazingly. He called me. He's got Nick called me,

872
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 2: and that was Nick. Franny called me later that night

873
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: to just say, look, it's fine, we got by. We're

874
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: not gonna be able to reschedule it, obviously, but but

875
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: but we did. It's okay, thank you anyway, and I'm

876
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: sorry to He was really really lovely guy. He was

877
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: very forgiving, and I just oh, I was so down,

878
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,479
Speaker 2: and I just thought, well, that's it. If I can't

879
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 2: even book in the right day, this is not for me.

880
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: And so then I tried to find other jobs, but

881
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: couldn't even get another job at the point and at

882
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: that time, and so things like that happened. But that

883
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: prompted me to find to straatewa, go, I need someone

884
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,439
Speaker 2: to organize me because this is not only got four

885
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: bloody talks for you, and I couldn't even turn up

886
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: to one of them. So as soon as I could

887
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: afford it, I found a PA person or like, they're

888
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: very hard to find, really good admin people. But I've

889
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: take me a long time. I've got the best in

890
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 2: the world now in Sarah. But all the way along,

891
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: what kept giv me going was that I loved when

892
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 2: I was up in front of people presenting, and I

893
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: knew that it was. There's a lot of things in

894
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: the world. I'm not good, so many things I'm not

895
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: good at, but I know that I'm that I can do.

896
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: And whenever I did it, I've got this feeling of like,

897
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: these people love this. It's going to work. It's going

898
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: to work. I again, I was still three years in

899
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: thinking this is probably not going to work. And I

900
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: was outside of school about to go in and do

901
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: emergency teaching. And I've been up since five in the

902
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: morning waiting for the phone for the ring to say,

903
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 2: this is the school you're going to, And I'm sitting

904
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 2: out of school that I hated going to. I just

905
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: hated it. I had that feeling like when I was

906
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: a kid not wanting to go to school. It was

907
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: like that in the car going and you get paid

908
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty dollars for the day to work

909
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: so unbelievably hard an emergency teacher. And as I'm I

910
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: was just about to turn my phone off my phone

911
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: rang I was literally getting it open to turn off,

912
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: and this lady ring, she said, Hi, I don't know

913
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: what you talk about. I'm at a conference in Ararat

914
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 2: I've got five principles here the keynotes spare gus and

915
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: turned up. My friend gave me a number. Could you

916
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: be here within an hour? And I said I can

917
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: better an hour and a half and she said no way.

918
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: And I went into the school and said, sorry, I

919
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: can't make it today even though I'm here right now.

920
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: And they said you are never welcome back again. And

921
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: I said, that's fairy. I totally understand that, but I

922
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: need to do this. And I went to this and

923
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: I went to this conference and I was fifty principles

924
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: and I got up there and thought, well, this is it,

925
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: like this is this is quite literally make or break

926
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: for me. This doesn't work. I'm never going to this

927
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: will never work. And it was. I had my phone

928
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: in my back pocket and it was buzzing the whole

929
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: way through, and it was people sending me emails from

930
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,479
Speaker 2: the audience booking in for me to come and speak

931
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: at the school. And we booked in forty eight out

932
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: of the fifty schools. In the next In the next week,

933
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: forty eight out of fifty Principles booked their schools in.

934
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: So then from a school point of view, it was

935
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: on and it was it was hectic, and it was

936
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: very stressful and it was all of a sudden, but

937
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to complain because I had this other problem,

938
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: which was I'm too busy all of a sudden. Three

939
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: years in and then about probably two years later, I

940
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 2: remember a guy I was at cricket when I was

941
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: playing cricket and a guy I come up to me

942
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: and he was my one of the dads from from

943
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: the team I'm playing, and he introduced himself and he's

944
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: a lovely guy and he said I was Brian feeling

945
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: where that's what I did, And I said, I trained

946
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: people in resilience. He said you should come to a

947
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: workplace and I'd love it. And I said, I it's

948
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: not really for adults, it's for kids. I said where

949
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: you work and he said, oh, the Melbourne Storm And

950
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: I thought he meant the staff there, and he said, no, no,

951
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 2: the players. I said, oh, I don't watch rugby league.

952
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 2: I'm an AFL person and he said it doesn't matter.

953
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: And I said, I'm not really sure this is going

954
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 2: to work. And he said, well, if it doesn't work,

955
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't work, just try it at least. And I

956
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: remember getting there about a week later and I'm the

957
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: biggest men I've ever seen in my entire life turn

958
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: up and they sit there in five minutes in Billy

959
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: slide up, who's one of the grast pies of all time.

960
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: Stopped me. He said, mate, this is fucking amazing. Keep

961
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 2: going And I said I wasn't going to stop, but

962
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: they getting itay, And I remember that point going, this

963
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: is interesting, like these boys are loving this. And the

964
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: next week I went back. They said come back next

965
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: week to another presentation and the head of well being

966
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: for the NRL was there and he was in the

967
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: background I didn't know who was introduced himself at the

968
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 2: end and he said, can you do this at every

969
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: single club? I want a talk for all the staff,

970
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 2: all the players, the under twenties on the right ends

971
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: under sixties so and all the partners. Only five percent

972
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: of six presentations at every club in the next six months,

973
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: can you do it? That was a turning point. That's

974
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 2: where all of a sudden it became elite. S board

975
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: is five percent of what I do, but it's one

976
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: hundred percent of the publicity that I get. So you know,

977
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: the start of I did hundreds of interviews about state

978
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: of origin and it's a week of my year. That's it.

979
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: So that was a big turning point. And then when

980
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: I have enough. What I found was whenever I all

981
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I went from having no money to

982
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: all of a sudden's a feud bit of money in

983
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 2: the business account, and I thought, wow, this is good,

984
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: this is I need this. I haven't earned money in

985
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 2: a couple of years. And it was instant because I

986
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: don't have a business brain, but I thought, I think

987
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: I need to put this back into the business to

988
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: take the next step. And that's why I started employing people.

989
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: And I always thought to myself, get people who heaps

990
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: better than you, like just and not having an ego.

991
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: It was like putting parking your ego. I found a

992
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: CEO whose name is ben Wardman, and he's extraordin and

993
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: his I mean I basically gave the control over to him.

994
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 2: I said, do what do what you other it to you?

995
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: You run this business, told me where to go and talk.

996
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 2: I'll go and talk there. Call me when you want

997
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: support with stuff, but this is your business effectively, and

998
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: I handed over to him because he's much better at

999
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: running businesses than I am. And he's done and he's

1000
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: the reason that when COVID happened, we didn't struggle. We

1001
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: actually went to the whole new level because we were

1002
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: such a diverse business that all we could We had

1003
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: digital presentations for schools, we had journals, we had you know,

1004
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: because when he started, he said, it's if you get sick,

1005
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: we don't have a business, so we need to diversify.

1006
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: And I'd never thought of that. I just thought, I'll

1007
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: never get sick. What are you talking about? And there'll

1008
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: never be a situation where I can't just turn up

1009
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: and present to people, and I'll never be too tired

1010
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: from doing that. But he diversified us. I've got another

1011
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: speaker who's much better presenter than I am for kids.

1012
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 2: He's just extraordinary. Na's Martin Hepple. So I think not

1013
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: having an ego is I mean, we've all got an ego, sorry,

1014
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: but being able to park your ego and just hand

1015
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: over control. I think a lot of people struggle with

1016
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 2: that when it's their own thing. But I just the

1017
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: second I'll hand that I've been going and it'll be different,

1018
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: It'll look different to what you probably deep down feel

1019
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: like it should, and we disagree better and I disagree

1020
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: on a lot of stuff all the time. But I

1021
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: heard the episode you had with was it David Siegel?

1022
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: He was saying how important that is that you disagree,

1023
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: and it was interesting listening to actual. I was thinking, Yeah,

1024
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: that is one of our strengths. We disagree, and often

1025
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 2: we find this middle ground, which is probably the best

1026
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: place to be, you know, the best place to come to,

1027
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: rather than it being strongly based a decision based on

1028
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: what my gut feelers, what his gut feelers, you know.

1029
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 2: So again, there's a long answer, but I think the

1030
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 2: turning points for me have been those little key moments

1031
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: where all of a sudden I've opened up to a

1032
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: different audience. But also when I've found people who are

1033
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: much better at may at certain things. I mean, the

1034
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: finance person, my gosh, Helen, their accountant, I mean, I

1035
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: don't know, I have any idea about this stuff, and

1036
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: I just completely trust her to do it all and

1037
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: she's unbelievable. And yeah, So just just finding people who

1038
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: are better than you basically and letting them go and

1039
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: giving them full autonomy to do their job, controlling them.

1040
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: I think that's an ego thing I really do. If

1041
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: you're going to expand your business. It's going to look

1042
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: a bit different. It just will, and it's going to

1043
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: feel different. And it may not have your Dean I

1044
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: will have your DNA al over it, but it's going

1045
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: to start to present publicly a little bit differently at

1046
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: some point. And that's if you want to grow. That's

1047
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: just going to happen. So find good people that you

1048
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 2: trust and give them control, give them autonomy, and let

1049
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: them go for it. And that's been really powerful for me.

1050
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: I was saying before we started recording, I'm a little

1051
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: bit obsessed with forming friendships as an adult, and friendship

1052
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: is something that I take very, very seriously. And I've

1053
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: even developed frameworks in my own personal life that are

1054
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: very geeky about how I categorize friendships.

1055
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: Which which helps me awesome.

1056
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: It's awesome, It's very geeky for a lot of it.

1057
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: It helps me make sure I'm investing enough time in

1058
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: the friendships that matter, which I think can be easy

1059
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: to let slip when you're a parent, you know you're working,

1060
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: you've got other stuff going on.

1061
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: Totally.

1062
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: I've loved the episodes of The Imperfect where you've talked

1063
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: about male friendship, which I find comes up as a

1064
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: bit of a theme in some of.

1065
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: Your absolutely does.

1066
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: Yeah again, I'm sure this happens very naturally for you,

1067
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: although you do talk about the awkwardness as well of

1068
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: forming new friendships, particularly with men. I feel like maybe

1069
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: it happens more easily for women forming new friendships with women.

1070
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: But if you were to unpack it, like what were

1071
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: the deliberate things that you were doing with some of

1072
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: the newer friendships that you formed, Like with your co

1073
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: host Ryan, you have a lovely friendship.

1074
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have an He's a way and I missed

1075
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: him last sight and said, I really miss having you around,

1076
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: and I miss the comfort I have of knowing I'm

1077
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: going to see you tomorrow nexty. I really miss that.

1078
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: So that's one thing, like telling people how do you

1079
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: feel about him? Is really powerful. I took for granted

1080
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 2: I played sport for I played cricket from the age

1081
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: of I could walk till I was thirty six. And

1082
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: when you played a sporting club, you have automatically have

1083
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: forty friends. You see him three times a week, you

1084
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: love being around me a very similar interest, and you

1085
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: just have those friends and then there's their partners. All

1086
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 2: of a sudden you've got like you know, when I

1087
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: went to England, it was an incredible experience. I went

1088
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 2: to play cricket. There was forty people at the club,

1089
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: half of them had partners. All of a sudden, I've

1090
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: got sixty friends. Amazing and I always looked out for Granted,

1091
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: now I don't play cricket and I yes. So it's

1092
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: like you now exactly what you said before. It's like, oh,

1093
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: if I want to make friends, there's no where, there's

1094
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: no place that I'm obliged to be three times a

1095
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: week and spend time with him getting to know them.

1096
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: So you actually have to make the time, which is

1097
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 2: a weird thing when you don't really have much time

1098
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: as an adult. So Ryan Shelton, I've always looked up

1099
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: to him, admired so much. I think he's one of

1100
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: the funniest people in Australia. And I would see him

1101
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: around the place because we lived used to live pretty close.

1102
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: And one day I went up to him and just

1103
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 2: said I he was in a cafe and I went

1104
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: sat way too close to him to try and make

1105
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: it look like but there's no one else out there

1106
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: like it was just so silly, and I pretended I

1107
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 2: turned and I said, oh god, I just want to

1108
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: let you know that. And this is true. I said,

1109
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: when I'm not feeling good, it's very hard for me

1110
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: to do. For me to do my job, I have

1111
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: to feel happy to do my job. And I will

1112
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: often sit in the car and watch your Instagram videos

1113
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: to cheer me up. And then, which is a true story.

1114
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: And I told him that, which I think is a

1115
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 2: very again in vulnerability, like it's a pretty vulnerable thing

1116
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: to another man, like you really have a big impact

1117
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: on my life, and I want to let you know

1118
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: that as opposed to I'm a really big fan of

1119
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: what you do. I guess I think that's still a

1120
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,760
Speaker 2: vulnerable thing to do. But anyway, I was very nervous

1121
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: when I do. He could tell I was very nervous,

1122
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 2: and he said, oh, what do you do? And I

1123
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 2: didn't want to make it sound like I was trying

1124
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: to talk about myself, so I said, I'd go to

1125
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: schools and do talks. But anyway, I love what you do.

1126
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: And he said, wow, what do you talk about? And

1127
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: we was a five minute conversation, and I posted I

1128
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: took a phoight out with him, and I said to him,

1129
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: my wife would love it. I took a photo with you.

1130
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 2: It was for me and I put on Instagram and

1131
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 2: I tagged him out and he followed me. And I

1132
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: didn't hear from him for three years, and out of

1133
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: nowhere three years, that message out the blue and said,

1134
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: would you like to have coffee tomorrow? I just want

1135
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 2: to pick your brain on something. He was going through

1136
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: some stuff in his own life which we talked about

1137
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: in our podcast, which was a bit of jealous jealousy

1138
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: stuff around his best mate, Homish Blake, who is Australia's

1139
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: most popular man, and we talked about that and we

1140
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: just had this from It was the most vulnerable conversation

1141
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: I've had from the standing start in my life. Like

1142
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: he just sat down and I was ready to exchange

1143
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: pleasantries and I wasn't even gonna do my thinking of

1144
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: being like self deprecating and vulnerable. I was just I

1145
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: was just in awe of this person. And he said,

1146
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: I'm just struggling with this, this and this, and we

1147
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: talked about it and after we caught up, he gave

1148
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: me a hug and I'm sporting clubs is like shake

1149
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 2: the hand or a fist pump and then you go

1150
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: on your mate good stuff. It was a hug and

1151
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: I was like, gosh, that was I didn't say that

1152
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: coming and that was really nice. And then we're just

1153
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: catching up and catching up, and every conversation we had

1154
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: there were quite vulnerable conversations about Then I started sharing stuff,

1155
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: and then the podcasts come about, which is a long

1156
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 2: story which I won't today Sou've already told you enough

1157
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 2: long stories. But then what emerged the podcast is meant

1158
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 2: to be about sharing well really famous people's struggle so

1159
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 2: we can all feel like we relate, and it happens

1160
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 2: to that person that I'm okay, I'm not alone. I've

1161
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 2: had a few people message me and say what I'm

1162
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: taking from your podcast. It's more about friendship. And I'm

1163
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: watching this this because my brother's now involved in the podcast.

1164
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: Who's my best mate? But our friendship is Our relationship

1165
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: has become so much stronger. Ryan and Josh have become

1166
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: extremely close. Ryan and I become even closer, and it's

1167
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: because we just have this space where we just talk

1168
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: really honestly about how we're going with stuff. And if

1169
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: ever someone and it's it's a weird. It wasn't with

1170
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: the podcast, we wouldn't do it like we're sort of,

1171
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: which is where Ryan said to me the other day, said,

1172
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: I feel really sorry for people wo don't have podcasts

1173
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 2: where they can't talk openly with their friends about stuff.

1174
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: Because so we invited ham Spake on the podcast Who's

1175
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: his best friend? And we're having a conversation about self

1176
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: doubt and how much you're talking about how he still

1177
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 2: self doubt, And I thought, gosh, that's really interesting. But

1178
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: then I asked him about I asked him about how

1179
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: when we'd met many years back, how it was a

1180
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: very I tried to talk to him in a cafe

1181
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: and I got so nervous. I completely stuffed it up

1182
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: and it was so embarrassing, and he actually remembered it.

1183
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 2: And then we had through Ryan had just become friends.

1184
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: And Ryan said, I'm just gonna say something. I feel

1185
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: a little bit funny about this friendship between you two.

1186
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: I'm feeling weird about it because you both love cricket,

1187
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: you both love exercise, you messaging each other all the

1188
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 2: time about your exercise. I feel a little bit left

1189
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 2: out of this and I can't offer anything on that topic.

1190
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 2: And hamish or it straightaway said to him, like, when

1191
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 2: you have a second child, it doesn't mean you have

1192
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 2: less child less love for the first child. You find

1193
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: this new love. He said, no one can have my

1194
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 2: Ryan love. No one can have that human and I

1195
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: got something different, exercise and talk about him. There's things

1196
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 2: that I can't talk to you about that I talk

1197
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 2: to you about. And Ryan's went, it's just so true.

1198
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: What Ryan did, which I've learned about with friendships, is

1199
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,479
Speaker 2: that he spoke his truth. There's this thing called truth

1200
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: verse harmony, which you obviously you probably know about, but

1201
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 2: if you choose. So often we choose harmony in relationships

1202
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: because friendship relationships, because we want it just to be harmonious.

1203
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: But whenever we choose harmony, there's a little bit of

1204
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 2: resentment that builds with that. When we speak our truth,

1205
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: there's no resentment the bills up. So the example I

1206
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 2: gave just there is that on the topic of male friendships,

1207
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: was that if Ryan didn't say anything every time Hamishnaber

1208
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 2: catching up or we knew we were catch up, there'd

1209
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 2: be a little bit of resentment there and we would

1210
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: have this sort of sour taste around our friendship. It

1211
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: would it just wouldn't be good for any of us.

1212
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 2: But he spoke his truth, and all of a sudden

1213
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 2: we were able to speak our truth about it, and

1214
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: it was gone and our friendships had gone to the

1215
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: next level again. I think we speak our truth a

1216
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 2: lot of the time. Were at a work disagreement the

1217
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: other day, the first tie we've ever had. It was

1218
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 2: Josh and Ryan versus me, and it was the most

1219
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 2: honest conversation about like how we were, like, I feel

1220
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable with disagree because we've never disagreed before, but

1221
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: it was a strong disagreement we had very but it

1222
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: was just such a We talked about how it made

1223
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 2: us feel as well. Like Ryan said, I'm feelingly uncomfortable

1224
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 2: because it just worries me that we've got never disagreed

1225
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: on stuff like this, and I was like, yeah, it

1226
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: does worry me, but I think that like I say

1227
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: all the positive about like, but I trust you so

1228
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 2: much that I know it's not coming from a wrong place.

1229
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: And it was just really nice. So I think it's

1230
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: hard for men to be really honest about how we

1231
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: feel because growing up as kids that was not encouraged.

1232
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 2: If we're crying, don't be a girl. Grow up be

1233
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: a man. So we go, oh, okay, I'm not going

1234
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: to have those those kind of conversations all that's not

1235
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: a manly thing to do. But what I've learned in

1236
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: my forties is that the more open you are, the

1237
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 2: more vulnerable you are with other males, the more it

1238
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: connects you. And sport is a very vulnerable thing to do,

1239
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: and you have those moments through sport. They appear all

1240
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: the time where you're making yourself very vulnerable just by

1241
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 2: you know, being in a close contest or the stuff

1242
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 2: you're going out of football field or it's a kind

1243
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 2: of vulnerable thing to do and can be quite scary.

1244
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 2: Well what's the times And that's that it connects you.

1245
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: But when that's gone, what's going to connect you? And

1246
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 2: I think it's shared vulnerability. Hugh.

1247
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: My final question for you is for people that have

1248
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: listened to this chat and they're like, I need more

1249
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: huge in my life, what.

1250
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: Is the best.

1251
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 1: Be able to do that?

1252
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 2: Well, I should probably plug my talks. I've got I'm

1253
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 2: doing my show. Basically, I've got one in Adelaide, two

1254
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 2: in Perth. This is one of the remaining ones for

1255
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: the year. One outlaid too in Perth, Canberra, and when

1256
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 2: it's Sydney in the Opera House, I'm doing the Opera House,

1257
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 2: which is terrifying but should be good. And then five

1258
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 2: in New Zealand come out late in a year. So

1259
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 2: you can go to the Resilience Project dot com. But

1260
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: are you go to events? You can find them there.

1261
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: But if you want to a great free resource I

1262
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: think is the podcast. It's so cool that you can

1263
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 2: it always blows. I was listening to your podcast yesterday,

1264
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 2: just going it's pretty cool. This is free, like you

1265
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: get this is the stuff. It's amazing. Podcasts are incredibles

1266
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 2: such a whoever invented it, amazing invention, whoever you are.

1267
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: I hope you're getting a lot of money from it.

1268
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 2: You're probably not, but yeah, so and then yeah, I

1269
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 2: guess there's books as well, but yeah, if you just google,

1270
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: I don't know Resilience Project's there's a lot of We've

1271
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 2: tried to create a lot of products so that we

1272
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: can reach as many people as possible the way that

1273
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 2: people will like to be reached. I guess reach a word.

1274
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 2: Yes it is y Yes, I believe it is reached. Hugh.

1275
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed this chat so too much has just been

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Speaker 1: such a delight. I could just listen to Hugh tell

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Speaker 1: stories for hours, and for me, the biggest thing I

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Speaker 1: got from this.

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Speaker 2: Chat is I was reminded of the power of stories.

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Speaker 1: I loved how you thought about storytelling and you're really

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Speaker 1: thought about collecting stories from his day and how he

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Speaker 1: thinks about sharing those with the people that he connects with.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I've definitely started being more diligent and

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Speaker 1: just mindful of the things that happened to me in

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Speaker 1: my day that might be worth sharing. How I Work

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Speaker 1: is produced by Inventing with production support from Dead Set Studios.

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Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank

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Speaker 1: you to Matt Nimba, who does the audio mix for

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Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sounds so much better than

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Speaker 1: it would have otherwise. See you next time.