WEBVTT - The Disappeared Project 0:00:04.071 --> 0:00:06.511 Podcast Unite Our Voices. 0:00:11.711 --> 0:00:15.311 This is Curtain, a podcast where we expose the disappearances 0:00:15.351 --> 0:00:18.831 of Aboriginal people across this country, shining a light on 0:00:18.871 --> 0:00:20.871 the darkest parts of our justice system. 0:00:21.071 --> 0:00:23.071 We ask who are the victims? 0:00:23.471 --> 0:00:28.271 I'm Anna mcquaire and I'm Martin Hodgson, Senior Advocate at 0:00:28.311 --> 0:00:31.871 the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning, this series 0:00:31.911 --> 0:00:36.471 contains the names of deceased people and includes distressing content 0:00:36.551 --> 0:00:43.631 that may upset some listeners. Welcome to Season two of 0:00:43.751 --> 0:00:48.191 Curtain the podcast. As regular listeners will know, in season two, 0:00:48.271 --> 0:00:51.511 we've taken a shift and moved our focus to the 0:00:51.551 --> 0:00:54.991 issue of missing and murdered Aboriginal women and children. And 0:00:55.071 --> 0:00:59.711 along the path of introducing this issue, we've explained the 0:00:59.831 --> 0:01:03.911 term disappearance and the disappeared and what that means to 0:01:03.951 --> 0:01:08.111 this issue and the issue of femicide that we're trying 0:01:08.151 --> 0:01:12.551 to explore and explain in the context of Australia outside 0:01:12.671 --> 0:01:16.311 of the language that tends to get used that comes 0:01:16.351 --> 0:01:21.191 from North America and other countries. But today we've got 0:01:21.231 --> 0:01:25.111 something big to announce when it comes to this issue 0:01:25.271 --> 0:01:28.111 in general. Amy, do you want to tell the listeners 0:01:28.151 --> 0:01:30.671 today what we're launching this week. 0:01:31.031 --> 0:01:33.671 Yeah, and I should also mention that we have two 0:01:33.751 --> 0:01:37.231 really special guests on the podcast today and I'll let 0:01:37.231 --> 0:01:38.551 them introduce themselves. 0:01:38.551 --> 0:01:40.591 But this week National Missing Person's Week. 0:01:40.671 --> 0:01:43.631 It's sort of a national week which is dedicated towards 0:01:43.711 --> 0:01:48.671 raising awareness around the numbers of long term missing persons 0:01:48.711 --> 0:01:51.791 cases all around the country. And obviously, if you've seen 0:01:51.831 --> 0:01:54.311 a lot of the media coverage, you'll see that not 0:01:54.351 --> 0:01:58.271 a lot of coverage is actually given to the crisis 0:01:58.391 --> 0:02:02.871 of Indigenous people who have been disappeared. Occasionally you'll see 0:02:02.871 --> 0:02:05.791 some cases that are shown. I think one year they 0:02:05.831 --> 0:02:09.111 did have their awareness campaigns around Menique Club, for example, 0:02:09.431 --> 0:02:12.871 But often in National Missing Person's Week, the parts of 0:02:12.911 --> 0:02:16.831 this crisis that directly affect our mob are silenced or 0:02:16.871 --> 0:02:19.271 just not seen as an issue at all. And so 0:02:19.391 --> 0:02:24.791 this week we're launching a new Indigenous led organization with 0:02:24.911 --> 0:02:28.831 our colleagues who will get to introduce themselves on the podcast, called. 0:02:28.671 --> 0:02:29.871 The Disappeared Project. 0:02:30.151 --> 0:02:32.871 But first I wanted to bring in our colleagues who 0:02:32.871 --> 0:02:35.871 are here on the program today. I want to introduce 0:02:35.951 --> 0:02:38.351 our listeners to Jenny. 0:02:38.111 --> 0:02:39.511 Jones and Kevin Yeah. 0:02:39.631 --> 0:02:41.591 You, Jenny, would you like to tell us a little 0:02:41.591 --> 0:02:44.351 bit about your mob and country and a little bit 0:02:44.391 --> 0:02:45.831 about how you come to this issue. 0:02:46.031 --> 0:02:49.751 Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. I'm Jinny Jones. 0:02:49.911 --> 0:02:53.071 I'm a proud Glomori and Kumer woman, and I'm one 0:02:53.071 --> 0:02:55.391 of the co founders of the Disappeared Project. 0:02:56.031 --> 0:02:56.791 I guess. 0:02:56.871 --> 0:03:01.791 Yeah, unfortunately became sort of an advocate for disappeared Aboriginal 0:03:02.191 --> 0:03:06.511 people during one of them devastating times of my life, 0:03:07.111 --> 0:03:10.151 my brother Jai was murdered. I think that experience showed 0:03:10.191 --> 0:03:13.471 me firsthand how our families are fouled by systems that 0:03:13.591 --> 0:03:15.951 weren't built for us. And it also showed me the 0:03:15.991 --> 0:03:20.671 power of First Nations led advocacy, how important that is, 0:03:20.911 --> 0:03:24.391 and how that can change outcomes. And yeah, I guess 0:03:24.391 --> 0:03:28.071 the Disappeared Project exists because we don't want any other 0:03:28.551 --> 0:03:30.471 family to have to navigate. 0:03:30.031 --> 0:03:31.511 That crisis alone. 0:03:31.751 --> 0:03:33.431 Thank you so much, Ginny, and we're going to talk 0:03:33.431 --> 0:03:34.431 a little bit about some of. 0:03:34.351 --> 0:03:39.951 The issues that Ginny has raised, and Kevin about your mob, 0:03:39.991 --> 0:03:42.271 of your country and how you come to this specific 0:03:42.351 --> 0:03:43.751 issue around disappearance. 0:03:43.951 --> 0:03:47.111 Thanks for having me on, Amy and Martin, and yeah, 0:03:47.191 --> 0:03:51.271 good to listen to you, Ginny. As always, my name 0:03:51.351 --> 0:03:54.511 is Kevin Yaye. I'm a walker, walker and South Sea 0:03:54.631 --> 0:03:57.791 and a man my mobile from the Aboriginal community of Cherburg, 0:03:58.031 --> 0:04:02.831 a couple of hours northwest of mcganjin, Brisbane, and I 0:04:02.871 --> 0:04:04.231 grew up on the story on a land of the 0:04:04.271 --> 0:04:07.111 budget of people and Harvey Bay. I'm also South Islander 0:04:07.151 --> 0:04:11.471 on my mom's side, and my Yaye surname denotes that connection. 0:04:12.511 --> 0:04:17.311 I am involved in the Disappeared Project as a founder 0:04:17.591 --> 0:04:21.631 and director in that. It was last year, yeah, when 0:04:21.711 --> 0:04:26.111 I received a call from Ginny who called me early 0:04:26.191 --> 0:04:29.671 on a Sunday morning asking some questions about her her 0:04:29.711 --> 0:04:33.031 brother who had been disappeared and not seen for some time. 0:04:33.351 --> 0:04:36.111 I have a background. My professional background is as a 0:04:36.151 --> 0:04:40.791 social worker, so I find myself supporting individuals and families 0:04:41.151 --> 0:04:44.751 in a variety of different ways. But that was definitely 0:04:44.831 --> 0:04:48.351 the first time I think I've supported individuals and families 0:04:48.711 --> 0:04:52.471 around disappeared family member. So I guess that's how I've 0:04:52.471 --> 0:04:56.751 come to the project, and I guess I'm very interested 0:04:56.751 --> 0:05:00.231 in how we care and support individuals and families going 0:05:00.271 --> 0:05:03.751 through As Ginny says, you know, an incredible crises that 0:05:04.311 --> 0:05:08.511 impacts the daily lives of so many So yeah, thanks 0:05:08.511 --> 0:05:09.111 for having me on. 0:05:09.791 --> 0:05:14.071 So now that we've announced the Disappeared Project, it's time 0:05:14.111 --> 0:05:16.591 for us to explain what we hope to achieve with 0:05:16.671 --> 0:05:20.111 the project, and of course centered at the heart of 0:05:20.151 --> 0:05:23.911 the project is those who have been disappeared and their 0:05:23.991 --> 0:05:28.631 families and so advocating for them, supporting them in every 0:05:28.671 --> 0:05:31.391 way that we can is at the heart of what 0:05:31.431 --> 0:05:35.311 we do. We'll also be working with some important partners 0:05:35.351 --> 0:05:38.471 who will introduce soon who will be able to offer 0:05:38.991 --> 0:05:44.391 supports in very high level places for families in ways 0:05:44.391 --> 0:05:47.751 that can assist them that have never been offered before. 0:05:48.751 --> 0:05:51.431 In terms of my role, I'll be taking on the 0:05:51.431 --> 0:05:55.391 position of being the sort of senior legal advocate and 0:05:55.431 --> 0:05:58.991 continuing the role that you've heard me speak about throughout 0:05:59.111 --> 0:06:03.071 kurtin the podcast, and largely that's going to be supporting 0:06:03.151 --> 0:06:08.271 family as they navigate dealing with police, the court systems, 0:06:08.511 --> 0:06:13.591 coronial inquests and really providing guidance so that we can 0:06:13.991 --> 0:06:17.551 get the best lawyers to work for people wherever they are. 0:06:17.911 --> 0:06:21.711 In Australia. Too often families are left on their own 0:06:22.431 --> 0:06:26.711 and don't have that support and no one stepping up 0:06:26.711 --> 0:06:28.991 and providing that. So part of what we're going to 0:06:29.031 --> 0:06:33.791 be doing is urging those on the ground essential workers, 0:06:33.831 --> 0:06:37.591 whether they be social workers, lawyers, and other people who 0:06:37.671 --> 0:06:44.231 can provide tracking services, search services to join families wherever 0:06:44.231 --> 0:06:47.351 they are. This is a big country and it's just 0:06:47.751 --> 0:06:50.711 not possible for us to be able to service every 0:06:50.791 --> 0:06:53.431 family wherever they are, So we're going to be bringing 0:06:53.431 --> 0:06:56.911 on as many people as we can to support families 0:06:56.911 --> 0:07:00.871 where they are locally, but also aiming part of what 0:07:00.951 --> 0:07:04.111 we're doing and have been working on for a long 0:07:04.191 --> 0:07:08.031 time is looking at both the way the media cover 0:07:08.111 --> 0:07:13.151 this issue and also issues around data collection and understanding 0:07:13.231 --> 0:07:16.751 the issue more broadly. Can you speak to where we'll 0:07:16.791 --> 0:07:17.591 be going with. 0:07:17.511 --> 0:07:20.671 That, Yeah, definitely, And I just want to add Martin. 0:07:20.911 --> 0:07:23.271 What Martin just said is that the Disappeared project has 0:07:23.271 --> 0:07:25.951 really come out organically, and when he talks about it 0:07:25.991 --> 0:07:28.671 being driven by First Nations family, it has come from 0:07:28.991 --> 0:07:31.631 the things we have seen families face continually in so 0:07:31.751 --> 0:07:34.871 many different cases. And one of those really important issues 0:07:34.951 --> 0:07:38.231 is just a lack of awareness and a continual silencing 0:07:38.351 --> 0:07:41.111 of what we're seeing around the very unique experiences and 0:07:41.151 --> 0:07:45.871 traumas that affect First Nations families and so often I've 0:07:45.911 --> 0:07:48.791 seen over the past ten or fifteen years of looking 0:07:48.791 --> 0:07:50.911 at these cases, particularly looking at the media, the way 0:07:50.911 --> 0:07:54.071 the media covers this cases. It's something that our listeners 0:07:54.111 --> 0:07:57.511 will know is that when a black fellow has disappeared, 0:07:57.551 --> 0:08:00.711 when a black fellow is seen missing, there is never 0:08:00.751 --> 0:08:04.111 the same level of attention that is garnered, you know. 0:08:04.151 --> 0:08:06.231 And we saw recently in the case of Queensland, we 0:08:06.271 --> 0:08:10.271 had a young girl tragically go missing up near Bunderberg, 0:08:10.351 --> 0:08:14.551 near Gimpei Phoebe Bishop and there was widespread coverage all 0:08:14.591 --> 0:08:17.951 around the nation and particularly in Queensland that led to 0:08:17.991 --> 0:08:19.871 the outcome. And what you'll know is when you hear 0:08:19.911 --> 0:08:23.271 from our colleague Jinny, is that there was nowhere near 0:08:23.351 --> 0:08:27.511 the level of effort applied in searching for her brother. 0:08:27.991 --> 0:08:30.511 And that's just a continual pattern that we are seeing. 0:08:30.991 --> 0:08:34.151 So it's really important. I think what happens often is 0:08:34.191 --> 0:08:37.391 that we're continually saying this, you know, black fellows know 0:08:37.551 --> 0:08:41.271 that this racism exists, that there's a racialized logic around policing. 0:08:41.311 --> 0:08:44.551 There's a racialized way that the media cover these cases. 0:08:44.831 --> 0:08:46.631 And yet what we need is the evidence to back 0:08:46.711 --> 0:08:50.351 up the families. So we need evidence that will support 0:08:50.431 --> 0:08:53.151 the families fight in however they want to fight, you know, 0:08:53.191 --> 0:08:55.231 if they want to go to the coronial inquest, if 0:08:55.231 --> 0:08:57.351 it's like the first twenty four hours and they need 0:08:57.391 --> 0:08:59.391 support and what they need to do, you know, what 0:08:59.511 --> 0:09:01.671 do you do first? How do you approach the police? 0:09:01.871 --> 0:09:03.831 What legal help do you need? How do well when 0:09:03.831 --> 0:09:06.711 do we approach media? What journalists do we talk to? 0:09:07.151 --> 0:09:09.031 How do we put out the stories of those so 0:09:09.031 --> 0:09:12.951 they're not the violence is not reperpetrated against it. 0:09:13.431 --> 0:09:17.031 So for us, the Disappeared Project is emerging. 0:09:16.671 --> 0:09:19.631 From what we see is necessary in the need to 0:09:19.671 --> 0:09:22.791 support families. So one of those things is actually finding 0:09:22.831 --> 0:09:26.831 out the numbers of Aboriginal men, women and children who 0:09:26.831 --> 0:09:29.351 were continually disappeared and who this is happening for you, 0:09:29.551 --> 0:09:31.911 and not just finding out the numbers, finding out their 0:09:32.031 --> 0:09:35.711 stories and uncovering the patterns, and that is something that 0:09:35.791 --> 0:09:38.711 is urgently needed and that's something that we're going to do. 0:09:39.111 --> 0:09:42.191 As we continued the Disappeared Project, and Ginny, I just 0:09:42.671 --> 0:09:45.511 mentioned your brother and I mentioned a little bit about 0:09:45.751 --> 0:09:49.751 how this has really emerged organically, I think the project 0:09:49.791 --> 0:09:52.591 and the necessity for the project. What sort of things 0:09:52.631 --> 0:09:54.671 do you would you like to see come from the project? 0:09:54.751 --> 0:09:57.471 Or why do you see it as an urgent intervention 0:09:57.791 --> 0:09:59.031 in what is currently happening? 0:09:59.351 --> 0:10:00.231 Yeah, so I guess. 0:10:00.391 --> 0:10:03.471 In May of twenty twenty four, my brother Jai disappeared 0:10:03.471 --> 0:10:07.711 from his home in moray Field in Queensland, and he 0:10:08.551 --> 0:10:13.511 was twenty five years old and a young, vulnerable Aboriginal man. 0:10:13.911 --> 0:10:16.391 Our family had reported him missing. 0:10:16.711 --> 0:10:20.711 And I think for me, I immediately and my family 0:10:20.751 --> 0:10:25.471 immediately encountered what so many First Nations families face, which 0:10:25.551 --> 0:10:31.031 is minimal urgency assumptions rather than action, and a system 0:10:31.031 --> 0:10:32.031 that seemed. 0:10:32.071 --> 0:10:35.951 Designed to forget rather than to find. And we knew 0:10:35.991 --> 0:10:36.711 something was wrong. 0:10:36.751 --> 0:10:39.431 As an Aboriginal woman, as his sister, as his family, 0:10:39.951 --> 0:10:44.191 we knew that this wasn't like Jai, and so I 0:10:44.271 --> 0:10:49.671 reached out to Kevin Yao Yi, who immediately validated my 0:10:49.791 --> 0:10:53.911 concerns rather than dismissing them. And then from there we 0:10:53.911 --> 0:10:57.711 were able to mobilize really quickly, connecting with Amy and 0:10:57.871 --> 0:11:02.271 other people who have spent years working in this space, 0:11:02.551 --> 0:11:05.791 and I think together we sort of implemented strategies drawn 0:11:05.871 --> 0:11:10.191 from their experience, you know, collective experience in pushing police 0:11:10.231 --> 0:11:14.351 for proper investigation. And they also helped me with managing 0:11:14.431 --> 0:11:19.431 media engagement and conducting community led social media strategies and 0:11:19.751 --> 0:11:24.831 also helped me with maintaining constant pressure on authorities. And 0:11:25.071 --> 0:11:28.791 you know, I think within two weeks Dry's case received 0:11:28.791 --> 0:11:31.831 the attention it deserved because of our. 0:11:31.751 --> 0:11:34.631 Community and what we were able to pull together. 0:11:34.751 --> 0:11:37.191 And you know, that led to the arrest of two 0:11:37.231 --> 0:11:41.391 suspects who have been charged with his murder. And I think, obviously, 0:11:41.431 --> 0:11:44.511 while their outcome is really tragic, I think we really 0:11:44.591 --> 0:11:48.751 quickly were able to pull together this strategy and it 0:11:48.791 --> 0:11:52.391 provided our family with answers that so many Aboriginal families 0:11:52.471 --> 0:11:55.991 wait years or decades to receive, if they received them 0:11:56.031 --> 0:11:59.591 at all. And yeah, I think we'd witnessed something really 0:11:59.631 --> 0:12:04.151 powerful in that how First Nations led advocacy. 0:12:03.751 --> 0:12:05.671 Can dramatically change outcomes. 0:12:05.711 --> 0:12:08.511 And I think the other side of that is it 0:12:08.591 --> 0:12:11.951 revealed the devastating scale of this crisis. 0:12:12.311 --> 0:12:14.911 The statistics that we do have are alarming. 0:12:14.991 --> 0:12:17.871 You know, Aboriginal people make up what only three point 0:12:18.351 --> 0:12:22.831 eight percent of our population, but approximately twenty percent of 0:12:22.911 --> 0:12:25.831 our Aboriginal women are missing in this country. 0:12:26.951 --> 0:12:29.711 There's no comprehensive. 0:12:28.711 --> 0:12:33.071 National data sets specifically tracking First Nations people and the 0:12:33.111 --> 0:12:36.751 disappearance of First Nations people, and so I think it 0:12:36.791 --> 0:12:39.991 put us in a unique position to figure out what 0:12:39.991 --> 0:12:43.191 can we do to support families who experience these sorts 0:12:43.231 --> 0:12:44.391 of situations. 0:12:44.631 --> 0:12:46.311 Thank you so much for that, Jinny. I'm Kevin. 0:12:46.871 --> 0:12:51.151 Jinny mentioned as well your role when Joi disappeared. You 0:12:51.271 --> 0:12:53.751 came in and you really helped validate her concern. I 0:12:53.751 --> 0:12:56.151 wanted you to bring you in as a social worker. 0:12:56.791 --> 0:12:59.391 How do you see families being treated by police but 0:12:59.431 --> 0:13:02.311 also like the lack of help around these cases from 0:13:02.311 --> 0:13:04.911 your experience and did you want us anything you want 0:13:04.951 --> 0:13:06.871 to respond to in relation to what Ginny just said 0:13:06.871 --> 0:13:07.271 as well? 0:13:07.631 --> 0:13:11.711 Yeah, thanks Amy, and thank you Ginny for resharing that 0:13:11.871 --> 0:13:15.191 story of your brother and those tragic events that led 0:13:15.191 --> 0:13:18.671 to his murder. I think it really solidifies why this 0:13:19.071 --> 0:13:23.031 work is so important. So families and individuals can hopefully 0:13:23.111 --> 0:13:25.711 be supported by the Disappeared Project and the work that 0:13:25.991 --> 0:13:30.071 we hope to produce. Look from the outset, let me 0:13:30.111 --> 0:13:33.151 make it very clear my political understanding of race and 0:13:33.151 --> 0:13:36.231 how race operates in this place and so called Australia 0:13:36.431 --> 0:13:41.631 stems from my own family's tragic circumstances dealing with police. 0:13:42.071 --> 0:13:45.111 I am named after my grandfather, Kevin Yaye, who was 0:13:45.511 --> 0:13:50.431 murdered by police and police custody. So I've always had 0:13:50.431 --> 0:13:54.231 a kind of feeling about police from a young boy, 0:13:54.391 --> 0:13:58.351 hearing stories of these tragic events that led to my 0:13:58.351 --> 0:14:02.231 grandfather's death. So becoming a social worker and working in 0:14:02.271 --> 0:14:05.231 the youth justice space and supporting young people in their 0:14:05.271 --> 0:14:08.951 families in that space really opened my eyes to these 0:14:08.991 --> 0:14:13.471 systems and how intrinsically linked they are, from health to 0:14:13.591 --> 0:14:19.111 education to the so called justice system. And when Ginny 0:14:19.271 --> 0:14:24.031 had called me last year on a Sunday morning, I 0:14:24.071 --> 0:14:26.391 knew it was very important in those first moments to, 0:14:26.751 --> 0:14:30.351 as Genny says, validate her and her feelings and her 0:14:30.391 --> 0:14:33.991 family's feelings in that moment. Amy, you and I have 0:14:34.111 --> 0:14:37.431 worked on a coronal inquest a few years ago in 0:14:37.471 --> 0:14:41.191 relation to the disappearance of an Aboriginal woman in far 0:14:41.311 --> 0:14:45.951 North Queensland, and in that work it was my responsibility 0:14:45.991 --> 0:14:49.431 to go over the police evidence and have a look 0:14:49.471 --> 0:14:53.551 at where there could be gaps or holes in their 0:14:53.591 --> 0:14:57.871 search and their evidence. And when Ginny called me last year, 0:14:58.471 --> 0:15:02.031 that come flooding back is my work on that coronal 0:15:02.071 --> 0:15:08.071 inquest and just to see how police overlooked blaringly obvious 0:15:08.711 --> 0:15:12.111 signs and so when Genny called, I knew I had 0:15:12.151 --> 0:15:15.191 to validate her in that moment, and I think Genny 0:15:15.471 --> 0:15:19.631 was Within two hours me and my partner were out 0:15:20.191 --> 0:15:24.871 searching the bushlands where JII was living at the time 0:15:25.031 --> 0:15:28.711 when he disappeared and we found out to be murdered. 0:15:29.151 --> 0:15:32.191 My work as a social worker is very much concerned 0:15:32.231 --> 0:15:36.191 with how do we support black fellows experiencing racial discrimination 0:15:36.951 --> 0:15:41.071 in all areas, And in this moment, I know that 0:15:41.111 --> 0:15:45.071 there needs to be more people talking about the disappearance 0:15:45.231 --> 0:15:49.271 of black follows across so called Australia, and I think 0:15:49.711 --> 0:15:52.511 the work that we can do with the Disappeared Project 0:15:52.551 --> 0:15:55.751 could potentially help many families. 0:16:13.831 --> 0:16:17.671 Thank you so much, Ginny and Kevin for sharing those experiences. 0:16:17.751 --> 0:16:20.271 I think one of the things for me in you know, 0:16:20.351 --> 0:16:24.391 being meeting Euginny and also being involved with Kevin was 0:16:24.871 --> 0:16:27.631 and the thing that just changed my understanding of these 0:16:27.671 --> 0:16:30.671 cases is that I was actually seeing what was happening 0:16:31.071 --> 0:16:33.631 sort of in real time and how the police, you know, 0:16:34.031 --> 0:16:37.391 could have entrenched a disappearance. And this is something that 0:16:37.471 --> 0:16:39.311 you know, Martin and I have been talking about a 0:16:39.311 --> 0:16:41.911 lot on the podcast because we've seen it in so 0:16:41.951 --> 0:16:45.071 many cases, which are long term missing persons cases in 0:16:45.111 --> 0:16:48.791 relation to you know, mostly Aboriginal women, is that when 0:16:48.831 --> 0:16:52.711 an Aboriginal woman goes missing, there's still the suggestion that 0:16:52.951 --> 0:16:54.671 she might come back or she could have done it 0:16:54.711 --> 0:16:58.711 to herself. And that's because when she has disappeared, she 0:16:58.751 --> 0:17:01.031 can't speak back, and the families are there to speak 0:17:01.071 --> 0:17:03.431 for her. And I think what we saw with Jy's 0:17:03.471 --> 0:17:07.631 came we saw immediately that the police refuse to believe. 0:17:07.471 --> 0:17:08.991 The fear of the family. 0:17:09.031 --> 0:17:11.831 You know that when we talk about validating families concerns, 0:17:12.071 --> 0:17:14.431 there's this feeling that, you know, because black flaws are 0:17:14.431 --> 0:17:18.511 always talking down to they immediately refuse to believe us. 0:17:18.551 --> 0:17:20.711 And then you sort of think, oh, well, maybe I'm 0:17:20.751 --> 0:17:23.431 being silly, like they might turn up. But obviously in 0:17:23.471 --> 0:17:26.231 so many cases that we've looked at is that the 0:17:26.271 --> 0:17:29.911 families always have a reason to be fearful and reason 0:17:29.911 --> 0:17:32.111 the families always have a reason to be concerned because 0:17:32.271 --> 0:17:34.791 they know what their loved ones, who their loved ones are, 0:17:35.071 --> 0:17:37.991 you know, and they know when they when they're higher risk. 0:17:38.111 --> 0:17:41.711 And the police often don't categorize Aboriginal people who go 0:17:41.791 --> 0:17:44.631 missing as high risk, and I've seen that so many times. 0:17:44.871 --> 0:17:48.671 So the reason we picked the Disappeared Project is because 0:17:48.871 --> 0:17:51.751 disappeared comes with a different connotation. And I think we 0:17:52.071 --> 0:17:55.031 have mentioned this on the podcast before, but disappearance is 0:17:55.071 --> 0:17:58.271 more of a framework which acts to absolve, you know, 0:17:58.351 --> 0:18:01.391 like missing comes with a lot of connotations that do 0:18:01.511 --> 0:18:05.031 not reflect the reality and in fact work for police. 0:18:05.111 --> 0:18:09.031 So things like missing connotes that yeah, they might come back, 0:18:09.151 --> 0:18:12.871 or they've gone on their own accord, or there's no 0:18:12.911 --> 0:18:16.111 suggestion of foul play, even when there's evidence suggests that 0:18:16.151 --> 0:18:19.391 there are perpetrators. So disappearance is a different way of 0:18:19.431 --> 0:18:24.031 speaking about this issue that directly ties as well to 0:18:24.111 --> 0:18:26.431 the history of this country and particularly where we all 0:18:26.551 --> 0:18:29.191 the majority of us work in Queensland, a state that 0:18:29.351 --> 0:18:33.831 has a history of disappearance and actively eliminating Aboriginal people 0:18:33.831 --> 0:18:36.191 from this land. So there's a lot of different reasons 0:18:36.231 --> 0:18:37.751 why we use this word. 0:18:38.151 --> 0:18:38.431 Martin. 0:18:38.511 --> 0:18:40.151 I wanted to bring you in because I remember when 0:18:40.151 --> 0:18:43.031 I talked to you about the Disappeared Project, there was 0:18:43.111 --> 0:18:47.271 immediately this feeling that it's a bit similar to our 0:18:47.311 --> 0:18:49.711 other work around wrongful conviction, and I think a lot 0:18:49.711 --> 0:18:52.671 of our listeners would think as well about the Innocence 0:18:52.711 --> 0:18:55.351 Project networks around the world and. 0:18:55.311 --> 0:18:57.111 Even in Australia. Did you want to speak a bit 0:18:57.151 --> 0:18:57.671 about that. 0:18:58.111 --> 0:19:01.071 I think that's being born out over the eight years 0:19:01.111 --> 0:19:04.711 of the work we've done on it in the podcast 0:19:04.911 --> 0:19:08.071 and what we've tried to explain about this issue that 0:19:08.951 --> 0:19:12.951 over this period of time, there was if we look 0:19:13.031 --> 0:19:18.471 at the initial reason we started Kurt and what happens 0:19:18.551 --> 0:19:22.231 to Linda, there was no care by the police or 0:19:22.311 --> 0:19:27.431 concern about justice for Linda or her family. It quickly 0:19:27.551 --> 0:19:32.631 brought us to learning about Queenie Hart, who was disappeared 0:19:32.631 --> 0:19:37.831 and murdered in Rockhampton in a very similar manner. Again, 0:19:38.151 --> 0:19:42.311 the police completely failed and as a resultant as we've explained, 0:19:43.111 --> 0:19:47.311 went on to let a man go who would carry 0:19:47.351 --> 0:19:52.591 out more wicked crimes. We've explained about the Bauerville families 0:19:53.071 --> 0:19:57.591 and the fact that the police very bluntly said to 0:19:58.111 --> 0:20:01.911 Colleen's mother and her family that she probably had gone 0:20:01.991 --> 0:20:05.711 walk about when we now know she hadn't, and as 0:20:05.751 --> 0:20:09.231 a result of the police in action, a serial killer 0:20:09.271 --> 0:20:13.111 went on to murder two more Aboriginal children and never 0:20:13.191 --> 0:20:17.631 spent a day in jail and walks around a freeman today. 0:20:18.311 --> 0:20:22.351 So so much of what we've already done and tried 0:20:22.391 --> 0:20:26.191 to explain feeds into this very issue. And we've also 0:20:26.311 --> 0:20:31.911 discussed cases where Aboriginal mothers have called police with concerns 0:20:31.951 --> 0:20:38.431 about their children, their daughters, and they've been arrested for 0:20:38.591 --> 0:20:44.151 crimes that relate largely to poverty, such as unpaid fines. 0:20:44.711 --> 0:20:47.751 We've seen the stories like these that we've told end 0:20:47.871 --> 0:20:53.631 up in Meteor articles, in books and journals, but the 0:20:53.711 --> 0:20:58.071 people writing those are completely missing the point about the 0:20:58.231 --> 0:21:03.111 race based issue, the systemic race based issue that is 0:21:03.911 --> 0:21:09.351 leading to this issue where we have such disparate reactions. 0:21:09.591 --> 0:21:13.431 As Amy said, a young woman went missing in Queensland 0:21:13.631 --> 0:21:17.711 and the police had a huge response, as did the media. 0:21:18.431 --> 0:21:22.551 We've often referenced cases in Western Australia where the same 0:21:22.631 --> 0:21:25.511 thing happened, and yet we know at the same time 0:21:25.591 --> 0:21:30.231 in Western Australia that a number of young Aboriginal men 0:21:30.351 --> 0:21:34.351 are missing and next to nothing has been done. So 0:21:34.711 --> 0:21:38.991 that's why the Disappeared project resonated with us so much, 0:21:39.791 --> 0:21:44.191 because it already reflects what we're seeing on the ground 0:21:44.231 --> 0:21:49.111 and the suffering we're seeing families go through. So part 0:21:49.111 --> 0:21:53.911 of what we also aim to do is bringing experts 0:21:54.271 --> 0:21:59.431 and one of those experts who has already partnered with 0:21:59.591 --> 0:22:04.191 us and will help us to help families is doctor 0:22:04.271 --> 0:22:08.311 Jodie Ward of Forensic HID and she's the pre eminent 0:22:08.951 --> 0:22:13.711 DNA expert in Australia. And instantly that opens up a 0:22:13.751 --> 0:22:18.751 lot of opportunities to help us get answers for families 0:22:18.871 --> 0:22:24.271 and hopefully solve some of the unanswered questions that families have. 0:22:25.031 --> 0:22:30.191 We're also working with an enormous organization that will help 0:22:30.271 --> 0:22:33.631 us build a database so that we can understand and 0:22:33.751 --> 0:22:36.991 track this issue more broadly, and we'll have more to 0:22:37.031 --> 0:22:40.751 say about that soon. So a lot of this is 0:22:40.831 --> 0:22:45.671 about addressing the need where it is at every turn, 0:22:46.271 --> 0:22:51.551 from providing resources and tools for families to providing the 0:22:52.351 --> 0:22:58.591 strategic legal advice, media advice, search advice. And then there's 0:22:58.631 --> 0:23:02.951 the other side, which tells the family's stories, because as 0:23:02.991 --> 0:23:05.751 we've seen, the media just can't be trusted to do 0:23:05.831 --> 0:23:09.031 that in a way that has any humanity at all. 0:23:09.871 --> 0:23:13.071 And then more broadly is the collecting of the data, 0:23:13.471 --> 0:23:18.471 building the database and beginning to understand this issue. As 0:23:18.511 --> 0:23:21.671 I opened with, we often talk about the way that 0:23:22.551 --> 0:23:27.871 those who Disappeared in North America become the framework for 0:23:27.951 --> 0:23:31.391 the way the media speaks about this issue in Australia. 0:23:31.431 --> 0:23:35.751 But it's just very different, and we know that the 0:23:35.871 --> 0:23:38.111 data will bear that out, and we know that the 0:23:38.151 --> 0:23:42.031 stories of families will bear that out. And that's what 0:23:42.071 --> 0:23:46.031 you'll start to see coming from us at the Disappeared 0:23:46.071 --> 0:23:49.391 Project in the next weeks, months and years to come. 0:23:50.151 --> 0:23:53.551 Given then everything we've discussed, Ginny, I was just wondering, 0:23:54.351 --> 0:23:57.311 as a final question, if we sort of reflect on 0:23:57.391 --> 0:24:00.911 what happened to yourself and your family and your brother Jai, 0:24:01.471 --> 0:24:05.791 how things might have been different the Disappeared Project existed 0:24:06.311 --> 0:24:08.511 when the tragedy struck your family. 0:24:09.231 --> 0:24:13.231 Yeah, I think that. I guess the most important thing 0:24:13.711 --> 0:24:16.591 to mention is that I think the Disappeared Project we 0:24:16.671 --> 0:24:20.951 exist because we want Aberginal and to Austraight Islander communities 0:24:20.991 --> 0:24:23.831 and families that may be listening to this to know 0:24:23.911 --> 0:24:26.151 that you know they have a right to be taken 0:24:26.271 --> 0:24:30.631