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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Mew, what would you do if your family was invited

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Speaker 1: to participate in a reality TV show? Is it an

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Speaker 1: easy yes? Is it a no way? Or do you deliberate?

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Speaker 1: And does conformity matter when your child doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: do what the teacher says? Is that fair enough? Or

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Speaker 1: do we need to have some level of conformity? It's

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Speaker 1: become a dirty word today. I'm the Happy Families Podcast

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Speaker 1: answering your questions. If you would like to submit a question,

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Speaker 1: just use the super simple system at happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot. You go to happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: you click the record button at the podcast section start talking.

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Speaker 1: It's literally that simple. Anything you want to know about

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Speaker 1: making your family happier, improving you, or being making a

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Speaker 1: relationship stronger. Happy families dot com dot A press record. Okay,

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Speaker 1: question number one?

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Speaker 2: Hi Kylie, Hi doctor Justin. You two are the best,

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Speaker 2: but you already know that, So here's my question. Oh

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Speaker 2: I'm Alan, Did I say that I don't know? I

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Speaker 2: have three daughters, nine year old and twin six year olds.

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Speaker 2: Your books and your podcasts have been so invaluable to me.

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Speaker 2: My ex wife and I were amicably divorced and transitioning

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Speaker 2: into new homes. A casting agency approached her about featuring

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Speaker 2: our children in a show about blended families. My gut says, no,

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Speaker 2: I worry about exploitation, but it's, you know, just a

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Speaker 2: single episode, and I don't want to be overprotective. I

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Speaker 2: respect your opinion, and I wonder your thoughts on children

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Speaker 2: in reality TV. I mean, how did you decide to

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Speaker 2: host Parental Guidance? Great show, by the way, Okay, thanks

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Speaker 2: for your time.

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Speaker 1: Alan, I mean, you did very good things for my

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Speaker 1: ego there. Thank you the best. I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Didn't know that, but you can. You can keep on

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Speaker 1: sending those sort of messages for I'll take them. Thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for that. More to the point, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this really cool opportunity you've gotten. Exploitation is

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Speaker 1: a reasonable thing to worry about. It would be my

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Speaker 1: biggest concern as well. In fact, ramifications for children when

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Speaker 1: they appear on television and everybody who's watching the show

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Speaker 1: gets to see it, or everyone finds out about it,

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Speaker 1: and then they go back and watch it, that can

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Speaker 1: be a really big thing because kids can be immature.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they don't quite know how to behave a specially

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Speaker 1: when there's a camera on them, and this can make

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Speaker 1: for some embarrassing lifelong memories of the wrong kind for them.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about me for a moment. Your question. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: not that nothing is about me, but your question was

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Speaker 1: about me and being on the TV show Parental Guidance.

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Speaker 1: So glad you liked it. It was really hard for

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Speaker 1: me to say yes to it. I didn't like the

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Speaker 1: idea of it. Initially, I was concerned that children and

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Speaker 1: families would be exploited, and unlike a show like Married

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Speaker 1: at First Sight, where you've got I don't know these

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Speaker 1: young adults or people who are perhaps in their thirties

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Speaker 1: and so on, who have I mean the mature They

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Speaker 1: can represent themselves however they want, and they know what

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Speaker 1: they're signing up for. Once you get kids in, it's different.

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Speaker 1: So I was really initially concerned. I had many, many,

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Speaker 1: many conversations with the producers when they approached me and

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Speaker 1: invited me to do Parental Guidance Do I don't? I

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Speaker 1: what with the ramifications and will anybody be exploited? Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: once I knew that the show that I was doing

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Speaker 1: was going to focus primarily on parents. It wasn't so

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Speaker 1: much about the children, and I considered the desire that

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Speaker 1: I had to make a contribution to the conversation about

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Speaker 1: parenting in this country and felt like I was the

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Speaker 1: right person to do that. I mean, look, I needed

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Speaker 1: a fair bit of coaxing. I really did need to

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Speaker 1: be convinced. But once once the assurances that I needed

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Speaker 1: were provided ongoingly, that's when I said, Yes, I'll do it.

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Speaker 1: And I've not regretted it for a minute. Have there

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Speaker 1: been some tricky things as a result, Yes. Did everything

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Speaker 1: go as perfectly as we hoped?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: But overall it's a show that I'm really proud of

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Speaker 1: and I still love talking to people about it, and

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for the impact that had nationwide on

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Speaker 1: families as they got involved with the show. Now to

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Speaker 1: your question, I'd be asking why why would I put

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Speaker 1: my family out there? What would the benefit be? Who

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Speaker 1: will it help? And I'm going to focus primarily on

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Speaker 1: my children and my relationship with my ex in your case,

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Speaker 1: because this is a show about families that have split,

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Speaker 1: and I'd be looking secondarily at how it could help

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Speaker 1: other people now if the producers can provide you with

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Speaker 1: the relevant assurances. Once you've got that done, then it's

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Speaker 1: time to talk to the children. Don't talk to the

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Speaker 1: kids about it until the producers have given you what

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Speaker 1: you need to know. Get input from the children. They

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Speaker 1: are young, and that goes in their favor because nobody

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Speaker 1: is going to hold anything against a nine year old

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Speaker 1: and a six year old a couple of six year

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Speaker 1: olds for more than a few months, everybody will forget.

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Speaker 1: So that's definitely in their favor. But you want their

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Speaker 1: buy in. They've got to feel good about it. And again,

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Speaker 1: I really think you want the focus to be on

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Speaker 1: you as parents and the way that you're navigating a

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Speaker 1: challenging situation than making it about the children. Done well

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Speaker 1: and in good faith, I'd actually recommend it. I think

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Speaker 1: it's great to look back on and have that record

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Speaker 1: of the way that you were navigating a tricky time

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Speaker 1: and seeing your children on the screen, having them captured

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Speaker 1: in that setting, it's absolutely delightful. Alan whatever you decide,

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Speaker 1: good luck again, thanks for the really kind words, such

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Speaker 1: a great message to receive, and maybe we might see

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Speaker 1: you on our TV screens up next. To conversation about conformity.

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Speaker 1: Do kids need to toe the line or can they

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Speaker 1: have the autonomy that they really want. Question number two

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Speaker 1: comes from Christy, Hi.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Coulson. My son is five years old and in

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Speaker 3: four year old kinder, and we keep having concerns mentioned

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Speaker 3: from his teacher about him not conforming at kinder, for example,

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Speaker 3: not joining in too all group times and not staying

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Speaker 3: in the line when told to line up. I don't

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Speaker 3: really like the term conforming, especially when talking about four

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Speaker 3: or five year olds, but I'll love to hear advice

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Speaker 3: on how I could help my son improve in the area,

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Speaker 3: or even your thoughts if it's something that we should

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Speaker 3: be worrying about at this age. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Kirsty, this one's a tricky one. Conforming. It's become

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Speaker 1: a dirty word in twenty twenty four, in fact for

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Speaker 1: a number of years now, because we live in an

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Speaker 1: ultra individualistic society where autonomy and creativity and authenticity are prized.

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Speaker 1: So let's just talk about why conformity does matter. Conformity

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Speaker 1: is necessary because otherwise we lose social cohesion. If, for example,

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Speaker 1: you and I decided to get on the road and

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Speaker 1: we didn't want to conform to the road rules. We're

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Speaker 1: going to drive too fast, we're going to drive on

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Speaker 1: the wrong side of the road. It causes chaos. So

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Speaker 1: we need conformity just from a simple social cohesion and

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Speaker 1: order perspective as well as that conformity, especially when you're

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Speaker 1: running a family or a classroom or a business, conformity

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Speaker 1: is necessary because it makes life more efficient. People can

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Speaker 1: work cool operatively, you can build trust when you know

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Speaker 1: that people are going to act appropriately. And also safety

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Speaker 1: issues like safety matters for conformity. So they are my

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Speaker 1: big arguments for why you would want kids to conform,

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Speaker 1: why you want family members or students in a classroom

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Speaker 1: to conform. Now, there are arguments against conformity as well

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Speaker 1: as stifles individuality. It can sometimes perpetuate injustice and inequality.

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Speaker 1: Let me explain that a little bit. If you blindly

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Speaker 1: follow norms, then it means that you accept harmful practices

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Speaker 1: and discriminatory systems. One of my employees has a daughter

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Speaker 1: who is currently going through a training program. It's part

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Speaker 1: of that training program, somebody was randomly selected from the

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Speaker 1: group that she's in to have his mobile phone put

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Speaker 1: up on the screen so everybody could see what he'd

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Speaker 1: been doing, his search history, his message history over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of hours. It was sprung on him. Nobody

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Speaker 1: knew that it could happen, and this could have been absolutely,

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Speaker 1: absolutely embarrassing, and my employees thought to put off a

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Speaker 1: hand and call it out and said, this is just

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Speaker 1: this is not okay. And when the instructor asked why,

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Speaker 1: she was able to highlight a couple of reasons why

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Speaker 1: what was going on was unfair and inappropriate. So she

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Speaker 1: was non conforming, And in that context, I think she

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Speaker 1: was completely right, because conformity can lead to groupthink and complacency,

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Speaker 1: and that seems to be where a lot of people

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Speaker 1: want to hang out. Now, with all of that said,

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Speaker 1: context is everything when it comes to conformity. There are

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Speaker 1: times and places where conformity is necessary. There are times

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Speaker 1: and places where non conformity is necessary. But when I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about a four year old in that preschool class,

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Speaker 1: fundamentally nonconformity, I think is most likely to lead to

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Speaker 1: getting in trouble, and that's going to make a child

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Speaker 1: feel incompetent, and that's going to cast a long shadow

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Speaker 1: of the rest of his life as he starts to

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Speaker 1: hate going to preschool and hate going to school because

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Speaker 1: he doesn't feel competent, keeps on getting in trouble for it,

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Speaker 1: and starts to just despise the environment because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: support his needs in a helpful way. Now, as I've

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Speaker 1: listened to your message, Kirsty, I'm hearing nonconformity around lining

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Speaker 1: up with everybody else and participating in different activities with

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Speaker 1: everybody else. I'm kind of sympathetic to the lack of

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Speaker 1: necessity around lining up. It's not the military, it's preschool

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Speaker 1: and some activities frankly and not intrinsically motivating, and kids

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Speaker 1: don't want to participate in them. I'm actually really sympathetic

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Speaker 1: to that as well. However, I really think that with

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Speaker 1: young kids being in this context, we're looking for more

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Speaker 1: conformity than nonconformity. We're looking for that social cohesion and order.

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Speaker 1: We're looking for efficiency, we're looking for operation, We're looking

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Speaker 1: for kids to participate. If they're being asked to do

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Speaker 1: things that are not helpful, that are not intrinsically motivating,

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Speaker 1: then there's definitely conversations around that, But by and large,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually in favor of the conformity argument in this context.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time. So what do you do well?

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Speaker 1: First off, have a good listen to what the preschool

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Speaker 1: teachers are telling you. Why, Well, they've got a pretty

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Speaker 1: good comparison group. They see what everybody else is doing,

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Speaker 1: they see what your child's doing. They've been watching children

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Speaker 1: this age for a long time. They know what the

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Speaker 1: norms are. If there's something going on, they'll let you know.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like they have. I'd dig a little deeper.

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Speaker 1: I'd explore a bit more, and I'd want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that I understood why my child is nonconforming. Maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just pointless, like what they're being asked to

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Speaker 1: do is done boring and not motivating. Maybe there's something

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Speaker 1: else going on that you're not yet aware of relationally

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Speaker 1: or in the way that kids are being controlled. I'd

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Speaker 1: also be considering what's you like at home? Is he

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Speaker 1: willing to conform at home? What's his motivation level? Or

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Speaker 1: let me rephrase, what's the quality of his motivation? Is

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Speaker 1: it all extrinsic motivation? He only does things for prizes

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Speaker 1: and goodies, or so he doesn't get in trouble, or

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Speaker 1: does he willingly get in line so to speak, and

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Speaker 1: participate in family activities happily, I'd also be exploring with him,

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Speaker 1: what are your reckons going on? Buddy? Where we're hearing

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Speaker 1: all of these things from your preschool teacher, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like things are a bit tricky right now. What have

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Speaker 1: you noticed now? He may not verbalize this particularly well,

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Speaker 1: he's a young kid, four years old, but try to

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Speaker 1: get his take on it. His perspective is definitely going

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Speaker 1: to be helpful. If you think that there's a problem,

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Speaker 1: then you can go and resolve that. If it seems

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Speaker 1: that he just doesn't want to do it because he's

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Speaker 1: being a four year old that doesn't want to do stuff,

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Speaker 1: my sense is at that point you get to explore

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Speaker 1: ways empower him to come up with some solutions, whereby

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Speaker 1: he may be more conforming in healthy and appropriate ways

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Speaker 1: for the context. Kirsty, I hope that's helpful. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for your question. If you would like to submit

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Speaker 1: a question, go to Happy Families dot com dot AU,

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Speaker 1: start talking. It's that simple. Next week we talk about

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Speaker 1: sneaky behavior in kids and bedtime issues, and tomorrow on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast a really important conversation about phones

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Speaker 1: in schools. They've been banned, is it working? And what

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Speaker 1: about the independent and Catholic schools that are not on

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Speaker 1: board yet? What can we do there? The Happy Families

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Speaker 1: Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. For

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