1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my favorite Tip episode where I 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. Today's extract is from my 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: chat with Michelle la Poidevin. And for those that are 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: not familiar with Michelle or Mish as I call her, 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: she is the CEO of Inventium, the behavioral science and 9 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: innovation consultancy that I founded many years ago. So she's 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: been CEO of Inventium since May twenty nineteen and Mish 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: is super passionate about creating the environment and structures for 12 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: people to do their best work. So she has led 13 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: and learned from men of Inventium's pioneering people practices such 14 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: as our move to a holocracy structure where we have 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 1: no managers, unlimited annual leave and most recently the four 16 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: day work week, and also the compilation of the Australian 17 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: Financial Reviews Best Places to Work list. She's also led 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: the strategic transformation of Inventium and the development of new 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: digital business models. She has an MBA specializing in Innovation 20 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: and Technology from UNSW and She's also been successfully working 21 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: remotely full time since twenty eighteen, long before many of 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: us were forced into doing that. So in this extract 23 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: we hear from Mish about Inventium's holocracy and why we 24 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: decided to fire all our managers. So let's head on 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: over to Mish. That might be a good note to 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about sort of a few 27 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: of the things that we do do in Inventium that 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: do make us unied in terms of how we run, 29 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: because probably about four years ago now we moved to 30 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: a holocrisy and a holocrisy, well, I might let you 31 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: describe it, Mish. Can you sort of talk about like 32 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: what a holocrasy is and how that actually works at Inventium. 33 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, really, simply, a holocracy basically means no bosses. 34 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 2: It's very much a flat structure that is directed by 35 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: self managed teams. If you want to research more about it, 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: Gary Hamill is one of the people that have written 37 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: about it the most. But essentially one of the main 38 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: reasons why we did it is that we recognize that 39 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: most senior people were spending a lot of time managing 40 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: people as opposed to making things or doing more creative 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: or strategic work for the business, and we also recognize 42 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 2: that culturally, the kinds of people that we were hiring 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: were all of these really self driven, autonomous people that 44 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: really didn't want a manager. They wanted a co which 45 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: they wanted someone that could, you know, steer them in 46 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: the right direction, but they wanted to have the scope 47 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: to be able to forge their own path. So, both 48 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: from a I guess a structural and a productivity sense, 49 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,839 Speaker 2: but also from a cultural sense, removing bosses essentially four 50 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: years ago was one of the best things that we've done. 51 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: I remember when we were sitting down and going through 52 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: all the holocrasy research and trying to make sense of 53 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: it and finding these kind of gaps and questions that 54 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: hadn't really been answered. And for you, four years on now, 55 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: what have been the biggest lessons for you in terms 56 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: of running a holocrasy. 57 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: So I think certainly it is about reinforcing the key 58 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: aspects into the culture. So one of the things we 59 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: talk about often is that we want to build this 60 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: mindset of thinking like the founder, so that means that 61 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: people are empowered to make decisions as if it was 62 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: their own business. We don't have really strict policies and 63 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: procedures around every little thing. We're just say, well, if 64 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: it was your own business, what decision would you make here? 65 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: And that's very much kind of ingrained in our culture, 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: and I think that a lot of people really enjoy 67 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: being able to think like that some of the other things. 68 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: So certainly, because we're focusing on coaching rather than managing, 69 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: we have had to upskill people in being able to 70 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: be an effective coach, and that's something that we're still 71 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: absolutely working on that. The system relies heavily on feedback, 72 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: so again, being able to really give and receive effective 73 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: feedback at any time, not just waiting for review season, 74 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: for instance, is a skill that we've had to absolutely grow. 75 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: The most difficult bit that I would say is it 76 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: is a hard system to create a clear aggression pathway 77 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 2: for people. There is still this really heavy association between 78 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: your titles equaling progress and promotions to a better title 79 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: meaning that you're good at your job. And the system 80 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: really relies on progression via learning and mastery and pay 81 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: as opposed to ticking a box to move up a 82 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,559 Speaker 2: level in a level of hierarchy. So certainly that doesn't 83 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: suit everyone. Some people definitely prefer that hierarchical approach that 84 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: certainly the mastery and learning focus I think is a 85 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: much more fulfilling process to take in the long term. 86 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: Definitely, and we think a lot about that during recruitment 87 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: as well. So there's a very specific type of person 88 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: that fits really really well at Inventium. It does tend 89 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: to be I find a bit of a dichotomy where 90 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: it's like you thrive at Inventium or it just doesn't work. 91 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: There's not much middle ground, I think is probably what 92 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: we've learned now. I want to talk about OKRs, which 93 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: stands for Objectives and Key Results, which is how the 94 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: method we've used for setting goals and for individuals within 95 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: the company setting their own goals. I think we've used 96 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: OKRs for probably about the same time as we've been 97 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: a holocracy, I think. And so OKAYRS we're championed by 98 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: Intel and then Google by John Dor And there's a 99 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: great book Measure What Matters that John dor wrote about OKRs. 100 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: Can you talk a bit about how we use OKRs? 101 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: And I think, particularly in the context of holocracy, where 102 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: you don't have managers, it can be quite hard to 103 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: determine pay rises. Something as simple as pay rises that 104 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: companies generally have systems where the manager decides on your 105 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: pay rise. Can you talk a bit about how that 106 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: works at inventing, because I think that's again like sort 107 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: of something that we've iterated a lot, and I think 108 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: we're sort of finally got it to something that works 109 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: very well and very fairly. 110 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: There is lots written about why you've should not link 111 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: okeras to pay, So that's the. 112 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: First thing to call and I should, And we call 113 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: them okras because we have an A for activities, So 114 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: okay a's, but well os or okays the same thing 115 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: when we're talking about it. 116 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I guess there's a lot of reasons why 117 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: people say not to most common ones you'll read are 118 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: that if it's linked to pay, people won't set challenging 119 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: enough goals. The other thing that they'll say is that 120 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: people will overinflate their results, or another common one is 121 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: that people don't collaborate as much because essentially they're so 122 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: focused on their own goals and getting a pay rise 123 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: that they don't want to help anyone else. Now, when 124 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: we were looking at this, we we really wanted an 125 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: objective pay rise measure. We really didn't want it coming 126 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: down to a subjective opinion. There are all sorts of 127 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: issues with that and biases and recency effects and stuff 128 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: that goes on there. We also didn't want to set 129 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: up some kind of separate goals for pay because everything 130 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: that people were doing were so centered around their okayr 131 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: is that, you know, what was the point of having 132 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: a separate goal sheet in addition to that that designates pay. 133 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: So we went about basically challenging all those assumptions that 134 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: were presented out there of why you shouldn't link them 135 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: to pay and working out how to essentially reverse that 136 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: and make it work. So some of the things that 137 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: we did, I'd say one of the biggest ones is 138 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: that we obsess over ensuring that the key results that 139 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: people set are value based, not activity based. And by 140 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 2: value based, I mean the goal that your activities ladder 141 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 2: up to that connect with kind of the bigger company goals. So, 142 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: for example, a lot of people used to fall into 143 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: the trap of setting a goal such as do ten 144 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: business development calls every week. Now, the value of doing 145 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: those calls is to essentially generate x amount of revenue 146 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: for the business, because if you go and do ten 147 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: business development calls a week and don't make a sale, 148 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 2: then that's not actually a great result, is it. So 149 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: we obsess over making sure that the goals are absolutely 150 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: value based and then that therefore reduces the ability for 151 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: people to overinflate their results because they're very set value 152 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 2: metrics and people know that by achieving them it's a 153 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: good thing because essentially they are connecting in with the 154 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: bigger company. 155 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: Goals and just to point out there, So with objectives 156 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: and key results, if you've never come across this concept, 157 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: how it works is that the objective is the broader 158 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: objective in the case of business development, to drive sales 159 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: for the business, and then the key results are where 160 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: it's quantitative, so it's very objective so to deliverlex number 161 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: of dollars in sales over this time period. So that's 162 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: how that works if you've never come across our cars before. 163 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: The other thing that we did was we set up 164 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: a scoring system which is very unique to invent him 165 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: and it is finally tuned and probably difficult to explain 166 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 2: quickly on a podcast, but essentially we enable people to 167 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: self score their operas based on a criteria and then 168 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: essentially their pay rise at the end of the period 169 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: links to their score, so very very objective, and we 170 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: do have a midway check in as well, and what 171 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: the purpose of the midway check in is to make 172 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 2: sure that people's goals are right and that when it 173 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: comes to the pay review at the end of the 174 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: six month period, which is how long our operas run, 175 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 2: that they feel like it will be a fair assessment. So, 176 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: for instance, at the midway check in, if someone's already 177 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: smashed a goal, it suggests probably that they set it 178 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: too easy, so we need to kind of change it 179 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: at that point. Likewise, if someone's priorities have changed or 180 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: something's just completely unrealistic for whatever reason, we can change 181 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: it at that midway check in so that that end 182 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: of end of review score they feel like is an 183 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: accurate representation and then therefore equates to their pay rise. 184 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: It's taken so much work over the years. I think 185 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: having a system where pay feels fair given promotions not 186 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: really a thing an inventium because we're so flat. So 187 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: it's almost like you know, as you talked about before, 188 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 1: it's like pay is that extrinsic way that people recognize 189 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: for top performance, for lack of getting a better title, 190 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: which is what would happen if you, I don't know, 191 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: worked in a bank or something like that. That, yes, 192 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: it feels like it's at a good place. That is 193 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: it for today's show. If you want to listen to 194 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: the full episode, I linked to that in the show notes, 195 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: so you might want to check that out. And if 196 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: you are enjoying how I work, I would be so 197 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: deeply grateful if you just take five seconds out of 198 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: your day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. It 199 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: might be a star rating or a few were, and 200 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: by doing so, it helps other people find the show 201 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: and it also brings a huge smile to my face. 202 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have 203 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is 204 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: it for today's show and I will see you next time.