Speaker 1: Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands
Speaker 1: were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders
Speaker 1: past and present.
Speaker 2: Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
Speaker 2: recorded on Drug Wallamuta Land.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
Speaker 1: I'm Brittany and.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura, and this is ask gun cut where we
Speaker 2: answer you're deep, you're dark, and you're burning questions, but
Speaker 2: usually where we talk for twenty five minutes.
Speaker 1: First, well, yeah, that, I mean, that's what a podcast is,
Speaker 1: That's what I do. We talk. But you've you've come
Speaker 1: in a bit flustered this morning. No, I'm not flustered.
Speaker 2: I came in with my phone because I woke up
Speaker 2: this morning and I'd lost my laptop, couldn't find it,
Speaker 2: wasn't in my house. Spent a good three hours last
Speaker 2: night like cleaning my house because we have an inspection today.
Speaker 2: And then I realized, ah, I haven't seen it since
Speaker 2: lunchtime yesterday, when it was in my handbag under neath
Speaker 2: a table at a cafe.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you left your laptop and your bag
Speaker 1: at a cafe.
Speaker 2: Turns out no, but I thought I did, okay, so
Speaker 2: I thought I left it there. I left the house
Speaker 2: and I was like, Matt, please go and sort this out.
Speaker 2: I brought a home. It was underneath the actual dining
Speaker 2: room table.
Speaker 1: But this I'm sorry that, Laura, that story was far
Speaker 1: less dramatic. I know, much better story when I thought
Speaker 1: it was at a cafe.
Speaker 2: I know. But the part of the story that's the
Speaker 2: big part of the story is that I think my
Speaker 2: brain is actually broken down. I think I've gone into
Speaker 2: that part of my life where maybe i have some
Speaker 2: sort of like.
Speaker 1: Memory loss sat dementia.
Speaker 2: I don't know if been called that, but honestly, I
Speaker 2: have done so many things recently in the last couple
Speaker 2: of weeks where I have absolutely no recollection of doing them.
Speaker 2: And some of them are small things like I'll put
Speaker 2: my keys down and they're in.
Speaker 1: The fridge my house.
Speaker 2: Remember, It's almost like I just had these complete blackouts.
Speaker 1: Do you know. I think it's because in my expert
Speaker 1: scientific doctor her opinion, I'm going to call it. I
Speaker 1: don't think you've got early on set dementia.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm glad because I am only thirty six,
Speaker 2: I've done studies.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you can it's a thing, but it's
Speaker 1: not common. But it's a thing. But I think you
Speaker 1: just have too much on your mind and on your plate.
Speaker 1: And I correct me if I'm wrong, But I think,
Speaker 1: like me, you don't write lists. You keep it in
Speaker 1: your brain.
Speaker 2: It's not even stuff that you would write lists for.
Speaker 2: It's like, where did I put my hand back? I'm
Speaker 2: not going to put that on the to doo list.
Speaker 1: But it's because your brain isn't registering that that's so unimportant,
Speaker 1: because you've got a billion other important things to do,
Speaker 1: like feed the child, keep the child alive. Just one
Speaker 1: of them, we don't knows. We're lost her in one
Speaker 1: of the boxes. Lola's gone.
Speaker 2: Lola is the sturdier of the two. She'll be able
Speaker 2: to fend for herself for a while. Yeah, I feel
Speaker 2: like Molly get picked up by a bird or something.
Speaker 2: She lives in at the rest of her life, in
Speaker 2: a nest somewhere.
Speaker 1: Bad takes half into the train. Lola is definitely more
Speaker 1: sturdy of the two. But that's why I think it is.
Speaker 1: I think you're just too hectically busy. Maybe try, maybe
Speaker 1: try starting to do like proper lists and categorize them
Speaker 1: and see if it like subconsciously freeze up space in
Speaker 1: your brain, because.
Speaker 2: It might or maybe I need to start some mindfulness things.
Speaker 1: No, start doing meditation. Yeah, but let's be realistic. If
Speaker 1: you never yeah, you you're like, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing for me right now. You will
Speaker 1: never do that, So like, let's be realistic. Let's do
Speaker 1: things that you will actually probably do.
Speaker 2: I'm the sort of person who anytime I've tried to
Speaker 2: do meditation, after about twenty five seconds of trying to
Speaker 2: do the meditation, I kind of no, I don't forget,
Speaker 2: but I get a bit bored, and then I picked
Speaker 2: my phone up. That's what I do, which is and
Speaker 2: then I start rolling. Yeah, and then I'm like, oh shit,
Speaker 2: go back to the mindfulness. Close my eyes for another
Speaker 2: twenty seconds, and then I'm like, oh, it's happening over here.
Speaker 1: That's not it. That's not the whole point. You need
Speaker 1: to be phoned in another room. I'll go and find it.
Speaker 2: If I put another room for two long birds.
Speaker 1: I will find you. Okay, well you need to work
Speaker 1: that out.
Speaker 2: Okay, So look, if I don't know what I'm talking
Speaker 2: about today, guys, it's because I'm trying to do everything off.
Speaker 1: My phone laptop. Another thing people do for brain power
Speaker 1: is sudoku. It's actually something to keep your brain healthy.
Speaker 1: And actually, Laura, have you seen the Chris Hemsworth documentary
Speaker 1: that he did. No, it's about his life in general,
Speaker 1: but you know, I don't know if you've heard. He's
Speaker 1: lightly spoken about not giving up acting and giving up Hollywood,
Speaker 1: but way way way peeling it back and having a
Speaker 1: rest because he found out that he has all the
Speaker 1: genetic markers for like Alzheimer's young Alzheimer's too, and it
Speaker 1: is in his family apparently, so he's he's completely changed
Speaker 1: his whole life. As soon as the doctors gave him
Speaker 1: his results and said this is something that could actually
Speaker 1: be happening to you, He's like peeled back everything. He's done,
Speaker 1: all this research on what to do for your brain
Speaker 1: and about a life, but it could be something that
Speaker 1: your little frizzle brain might be interested.
Speaker 2: Well, I know we joke about this, and obviously I
Speaker 2: don't want to go from joking about having memory loss
Speaker 2: to talking about Alzheimer's. But Alzheimer's is something that's very
Speaker 2: prolific in my family. So as much as we joke
Speaker 2: about me for you getting things, then usually turns into
Speaker 2: the joke about how I'm the one who's going to
Speaker 2: get early on set Alzheimer's.
Speaker 1: That's not actually funny. It's not funny.
Speaker 2: And you know when I say this, I mean my
Speaker 2: so my great aunt, she passed away, my nan sister
Speaker 2: really young, like in her late fifties from Alzheimers. It's
Speaker 2: just seeing so young and it happens so rapidly as well.
Speaker 2: But in saying this, I would actually really be interested
Speaker 2: in doing an episode about like living alongside a parent
Speaker 2: who has Alzheimer's, because I think that so many of
Speaker 2: us are getting to an age where we do have
Speaker 2: to consider our parents' health and well being. So many
Speaker 2: of us are going to have parents who struggle with
Speaker 2: Alzheimer's or dementia, or whether it's not a parent's a grandparents.
Speaker 2: So if you think that that's an episode that you
Speaker 2: would be interested in, slide into the DMS because I mean,
Speaker 2: it's for my own therapy, but it could also be.
Speaker 1: For yours too. It is funny when you say you know,
Speaker 1: you end up being a butt of the jokes, like
Speaker 1: you forget everything, You always forget anything like, it's funny
Speaker 1: when you say that and you're actually like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes that might offend me. I remember we used to
Speaker 1: do that with my sister Sherry. We used to say
Speaker 1: it all the time because you'd talk to she wouldn't
Speaker 1: hear you, and I'd be like, what are you deaf?
Speaker 1: Like we used to be like, why are you so deaf?
Speaker 1: When she was deaf and we didn't know she ended
Speaker 1: up getting hearing aids in retrospect, And it wasn't we
Speaker 1: weren't saying it meanly, like you'd say something she was
Speaker 1: like huh, and I'd be like, are you deaf? Or
Speaker 1: something like, you know, those throwaway comments you don't think.
Speaker 2: But these are the things, and I think for people
Speaker 2: who are genuinely I mean, obviously there's a big difference
Speaker 2: between people who are you'ro divergent who have ADHD and
Speaker 2: have forgetful, and people who are just generally forgetful because
Speaker 2: they've got too much on. But it can be really
Speaker 2: embarrassing because you become and I know we were talking
Speaker 2: about this before, you become the butt of the joke.
Speaker 2: You become the like, oh, of course Laura forgot it
Speaker 2: because she always forgot it. And when you hear people
Speaker 2: say that, even if it is true, even if I
Speaker 2: do forget things a lot, it makes you feel useless.
Speaker 2: It makes you feel like you're not good at anything,
Speaker 2: and it makes you think that people think that you're unreliable,
Speaker 2: and that then can really affect your self esteem.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: As friends, we can kind of be like very critical
Speaker 2: on the things that maybe aren't perfect about our friends
Speaker 2: or the things that they do that might be a
Speaker 2: bit different. And sometimes I think we have to have
Speaker 2: the empathy to go, oh, that probably makes them feel
Speaker 2: bit shit about themselves because they already feel shit about
Speaker 2: themselves with those things.
Speaker 1: But I say this because you found your laptop.
Speaker 2: I found my laptop, but I felt stupid. And I
Speaker 2: really remember this massive period of my twenties that I
Speaker 2: went through where I would forget things all the time.
Speaker 2: For example, this one day I put the day's takings
Speaker 2: from the shop, like my shop in the city when
Speaker 2: I used to work in Westfields. I put all the
Speaker 2: money at Christmas time on top of my car and
Speaker 2: I put all my groceries and everything, and then I
Speaker 2: drove away and my wallet was gone and all the
Speaker 2: money was gone, and I just remember thinking like what
Speaker 2: is wrong with me?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: You guys are both looking at me like what the
Speaker 2: fuck anceric was?
Speaker 1: We've been four and a half years. You've never told
Speaker 1: me that story. You've told me okay, you've told me
Speaker 1: a story where you left your wallet on there, but
Speaker 1: I can see in your face you left down the
Speaker 1: fact that you left the takings.
Speaker 2: No, because that was a separate time. These things have
Speaker 2: happened multiple times in my life.
Speaker 1: But do you not actually do you not actually want
Speaker 1: to think why and then try and figure that out.
Speaker 1: And I don't mean why he's in a bad thing,
Speaker 1: but like, have you ever tried a diary or like
Speaker 1: a points list or to do list, because you do
Speaker 1: have a lot of shit gone on in your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely have tried those things, but they don't
Speaker 2: seem to help in the same way I think that
Speaker 2: you know, people like, just do this, it's so simple,
Speaker 2: and it's not simple.
Speaker 1: Well, next time you lose your day's takings, lose them
Speaker 1: at my house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, I lost my keys in your house and
Speaker 2: also my entire wallet and my income. Mat I don't
Speaker 2: the wallet never showed up, but the keys are here,
Speaker 2: and I have a new house.
Speaker 1: It's so we So last night we all it was
Speaker 1: super cute. We had like a movie night and we
Speaker 1: all watched the documentary Ashley Madison. We didn't watch it together.
Speaker 1: We all watched it in our own homes. It wasn't
Speaker 1: that cute, but we had our own little snacks and
Speaker 1: Keisha started Actually ke Shea's like, oh my god, I've
Speaker 1: started watching this doco. It's so good. And then I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to turn it on. So this
Speaker 1: is in our group chat. So I turned it on.
Speaker 1: Then Laura's like, well, I've got fomo now, so you
Speaker 1: turn it on.
Speaker 2: So we sat there all together but independently and text
Speaker 2: each other throughout watching the same documentary.
Speaker 1: Were like, oh my god, could you believe this? We're like,
Speaker 1: I'm two minutes behind you. We can't keep anyway. It
Speaker 1: is wild. If you guys haven't seen the Ashley Madison documentary,
Speaker 1: we can't recommend it enough. But Laura, why don't you
Speaker 1: tell people what it is if they haven't heard about it?
Speaker 1: And you know why, I say, if they haven't heard
Speaker 1: about it before, I let you tell. I had this
Speaker 1: conversation with Ben last night and he's like, what are
Speaker 1: you doing. I said, I'm watching Ashley Madison, are you guys? Oh?
Speaker 1: Who's that? And I was like what. He's like, who's
Speaker 1: Ashley Madison? And I was like, don't you know what
Speaker 1: Ashley Madison is? And he's like, am I supposed to
Speaker 1: know what Ashley Madison is? And that's when I realized
Speaker 1: maybe it didn't stop the world in it's tracks like
Speaker 1: I thought it did.
Speaker 2: Well, I find it's interesting because I asked Matt and
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, yeah, I know what that is.
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, why do you know what
Speaker 2: it is? It was leaked and now you'll understand why. Okay,
Speaker 2: So for anyone who doesn't know Ashley Madison, it is.
Speaker 2: It's a site that's still around. The documentary it's on
Speaker 2: Disney Plus if you want to go watch it. It's
Speaker 2: a three part mini series. Basically, there's three episodes and
Speaker 2: it is a documentary that kind of recaps the massive scandal,
Speaker 2: the rise and then the fall and then the rise
Speaker 2: again of this dating website called Ashley Madison. Now, the
Speaker 2: reason why Ashley Madison was so hugely controversial is because
Speaker 2: it was an affairs website. So even the tagline was
Speaker 2: Ashley Madison life is short, have an affair, And I
Speaker 2: mean I remember. The reason why it kind of came
Speaker 2: into in terms of like within Australia it came into
Speaker 2: full mainstream public media was that in twenty fifteen there
Speaker 2: was a huge data league from Ashley Madison. And now
Speaker 2: you can imagine a site like this, an affairs website
Speaker 2: is based on secrecy, it's based on privacy. So many
Speaker 2: men and women had signed up to this thinking that
Speaker 2: they had anonymity to go about and have affairs without
Speaker 2: their spouse finding out. There was a hacker group called
Speaker 2: the Impact Team. They went in and they completely stripped
Speaker 2: all the data from Ashley Madison. This is globally worldwide,
Speaker 2: millions and millions and millions of users, something crazy like
Speaker 2: thirty two million users. Their information was taken put into
Speaker 2: a Torrent and Ashley Madison was given thirty days to
Speaker 2: shut down their site or all of the information of
Speaker 2: their users was going to be disseminated throughout the dark web.
Speaker 2: And basically what happened is they got to the end
Speaker 2: of that thirty days and it wasn't a hoax, and
Speaker 2: bit by bit, massive chunks of data was released and
Speaker 2: there were websites set up where you could go on
Speaker 2: and you could type in the name of a man
Speaker 2: or the name of a woman, or an email address
Speaker 2: and it would basically dos any of the users. So
Speaker 2: much so, and this is actually on the documentary. It's
Speaker 2: so interesting. Fitzy and Whipper had a segment on their
Speaker 2: radio show where you could ring up, and they've got
Speaker 2: the sound grab of it. This woman rings up and
Speaker 2: she says, I have a feeling my husband might have
Speaker 2: been on the website.
Speaker 1: And they did it live.
Speaker 2: They searched his email address and sure enough, the woman's
Speaker 2: husband was on there. This is playing out across breakfast
Speaker 2: radio in Australia, like that's how big it was. It
Speaker 2: was wide world wide. But there were so many points
Speaker 2: of this documentary I thought was so interesting, so many
Speaker 2: moral debates around obviously cheating it's a horrible thing, it's
Speaker 2: completely unethical, but whether it's better to do it on
Speaker 2: something like an affairs website where everybody there at least
Speaker 2: knows the intention of what they're doing, or the way
Speaker 2: in which they used controversy to drive marketing, and they
Speaker 2: had this incredible intense explosion.
Speaker 1: Of user subscribers.
Speaker 2: It was also the kind of debate between what was
Speaker 2: more immoral is that the people who signed up to
Speaker 2: use the website and they were having affairs on their spouses,
Speaker 2: or was it the data league itself who was doxing
Speaker 2: all these people? And you know, there was not really
Speaker 2: any differentiator. It wasn't like they were saying, oh, well,
Speaker 2: these users have had multiple affairs, and these users just
Speaker 2: signed up and never had an affair. Everyone was kind
Speaker 2: of criminalized in the same way.
Speaker 1: Everyone was lumped into the same sort of package of
Speaker 1: if your name was on there, you did the wrong thing.
Speaker 1: The reason that was sad with the leak is and
Speaker 1: I say sad because it did result in people killing themselves,
Speaker 1: resulted in suicide and depression. But there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people's names that were on there, and the point
Speaker 1: that they made on the docu series were there a
Speaker 1: lot of women's names that then became adulteresses in the
Speaker 1: public eye whence their names were released, but they only
Speaker 1: ever went on there to try and see if their
Speaker 1: husbands were on their Like there were women that were like,
Speaker 1: I'm suspicious about my husband. I'm gonna go and try
Speaker 1: and suss this out. Then their names will eat and
Speaker 1: then their quote unquote careers and lives were ruined because
Speaker 1: everyone in the world could see that they were on
Speaker 1: this site. I am on the fence with this site.
Speaker 1: And I'm saying this because it really provoked some thoughts
Speaker 1: when I was watching it that I didn't think I
Speaker 1: would ever have. So I do not condone cheating at all.
Speaker 1: I want to make that clear. I think if you're
Speaker 1: gonna cheat, don't be in the relationship.
Speaker 2: Also, we live in a world now with us, so
Speaker 2: I mean, I understand that back in say twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: it wasn't as liberal, but in this day and age,
Speaker 2: the different types of relationships that you can offer it to.
Speaker 2: You can have a polyamorous relationship, you can have an
Speaker 2: open relationship. They are not as socially frowned upon as
Speaker 2: what they used to be. People are so much more
Speaker 2: open and accepting to choose. Adultery just doesn't really, it
Speaker 2: doesn't fly anymore. It's like just fucking lib authentically.
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is, it does fly because still there's
Speaker 1: seventy and seventy five million users on this site. Like
Speaker 1: this data League didn't crash the site. The whole all
Speaker 1: point was they wanted this site taken down. They wanted
Speaker 1: it to end. They were like, let's leak thirty two
Speaker 1: million users, They're going to have to shut the site down.
Speaker 1: All it did was give it free publicity around the
Speaker 1: world and the sign up went through the roof. So
Speaker 1: they're now it between seventy and seventy five million people
Speaker 1: on this site. So adultery still exists, cheating and these
Speaker 1: affairs is still more rife than ever. But to be clear,
Speaker 1: you didn't have to be in a marriage or a
Speaker 1: relationship to go on this site. You could be single,
Speaker 1: like the worst single people going on there that obviously
Speaker 1: just wanted to be involved in an affair or it
Speaker 1: was just another way to go and have sex the
Speaker 1: thrill of it, because it does take away from the
Speaker 1: fact people generally weren't wanting to go on there and
Speaker 1: have proper relationships, although they did. There were some people
Speaker 1: that were in relationships for like eighteen months that was
Speaker 1: sleeping with the same person, so it was a proper affair.
Speaker 1: Other people going one off hit sex and going back
Speaker 1: to their families, and I can't imagine the number of
Speaker 1: families and relationships this ruined. Once this came out, and
Speaker 1: the fact that this happened but I also had this
Speaker 1: thought where I was like, I actually won wonder how
Speaker 1: many relationships this saved? And what I mean by that is,
Speaker 1: you know, we've spoken to so many people Esther Perelli's
Speaker 1: one that comes to mind, so many specialists in this
Speaker 1: relationship field that have said it's actually quite hard to
Speaker 1: stay in a committed relationship for fifty or sixty years,
Speaker 1: and sometimes people want to go and find something outside
Speaker 1: of the relationship, but they don't want to leave the relationship.
Speaker 1: They love that person, they loved the family. And there's
Speaker 1: a part of me that thinks, I wonder how many
Speaker 1: relationships were saved because someone man or woman completely loved
Speaker 1: their life, They loved their family and their kids, but
Speaker 1: they felt like that one sex drive was missing, or
Speaker 1: they weren't getting what they needed from their partner. So
Speaker 1: instead of leaving completely the family and going starting a
Speaker 1: new life, they went got what they needed for and
Speaker 1: I came back to the family and continued. Now I'm
Speaker 1: not saying it's right, but I do wonder how many people,
Speaker 1: how many men went and did that and then stayed
Speaker 1: in the family without their partner knowing their partner thinks
Speaker 1: they're in this lovely committed relationship. Still it makes the
Speaker 1: home life better and life goes on so morally wrong,
Speaker 1: it's so moral. I mean, it's just a thought that
Speaker 1: popped in my head. I was like, fuck, this ruined people.
Speaker 1: But I wonder how many families stayed together.
Speaker 2: I think I struggle with that sentiment because I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: I mean, is a relationship that's based on one sided lies,
Speaker 2: you know, a fabrication of what the truth is? Someone
Speaker 2: who's doing one thing in their private life and another
Speaker 2: thing in their personal life, is that a relationship that's
Speaker 2: worth saving. Obviously, there's people who maintain relationships after cheating,
Speaker 2: scandals and affairs. It happens all the time, but they
Speaker 2: usually maintain relationships once there's been transparency and there's been change.
Speaker 2: I think that like, yes, you could say, oh, it
Speaker 2: saved relationships on a technicality, But if you ask the
Speaker 2: woman who was being lied to, is that a relationship
Speaker 2: that she would have wanted to stay in? I think
Speaker 2: you would get a varying number of answers. Some people
Speaker 2: would choose to stay and some people would absolutely want
Speaker 2: to leave.
Speaker 1: So no, well, this is I guess I'm saying. It's
Speaker 1: like I'm saying it's think of this, there would be
Speaker 1: and this is sad, but there would be so many
Speaker 1: people out there that don't know that their partners were
Speaker 1: on that site. They don't know that to this day,
Speaker 1: they're still in a relationship and they don't know that
Speaker 1: their partners are cheating on them, but they feel like
Speaker 1: they're in their solid relationship. It's complete manipulation. It's not
Speaker 1: healthy and it's not right. But people also staying relationships
Speaker 1: for other reasons. They want to stay because of the
Speaker 1: family unit. They want to stay for their kids. I
Speaker 1: reckon there would be loads of people out there that
Speaker 1: have gone fucked someone because that's what they felt they needed,
Speaker 1: but they didn't want to leave their family, come back
Speaker 1: had a great family. She never knows. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: it's right, it's disgusting, but I reckon there are people
Speaker 1: doing that, getting what they need elsewhere and coming back
Speaker 1: to the family.
Speaker 2: But I think that's exactly what people were doing on
Speaker 2: this site. That was the whole purpose of it. It
Speaker 2: was a site that was set up for people who
Speaker 2: didn't want to leave their marriages, but they wanted to
Speaker 2: deceive their partner and have an affair.
Speaker 1: Yes, so Did that save the relationship? Is my question.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think you can answer that question though, without
Speaker 2: saying is it a relationship that the other person in it,
Speaker 2: who the non consenting person, the person that's being deceived,
Speaker 2: would want to be in. So yes, it's saved the
Speaker 2: version of the relationship that is exist, but that relationship
Speaker 2: is not real in the essence of which both parties
Speaker 2: believe it to be. I think cheating is it's such
Speaker 2: a challenging one because we look at it in a
Speaker 2: very black and white way. We think, if someone's had
Speaker 2: an affair, of someone's cheating, then it must mean that
Speaker 2: there's no love at all. If we think that someone has,
Speaker 2: you know, stepped outside of the monogamy what you both
Speaker 2: have chosen in the relationship, then that person isn't essentially
Speaker 2: a terrible person. And I guess the part of this
Speaker 2: documentary I found so interesting is more so the debate
Speaker 2: around There's no question cheating's awful, you know, but people
Speaker 2: think it is so morally and completely bankrupt that it
Speaker 2: justified having all of these people's personal data elite and
Speaker 2: having all of their nudes leaked, having their addresses league
Speaker 2: like it was so prolific the amount of information that
Speaker 2: was leaked about these people, and it's like, does the
Speaker 2: punishment and I know we say this a lot when
Speaker 2: it comes to social media and kind of internet vigilante,
Speaker 2: but does the punishment fit the crime? And something you
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, but just briefly, like, there were people men
Speaker 2: and women who were on this site who lost their jobs. Obviously,
Speaker 2: they lost their families, they lost their relationships because their
Speaker 2: partners left them. But there were also people who suicided
Speaker 2: off the back of this because they felt as though
Speaker 2: they had completely lost any control in their lives or
Speaker 2: respecting their lives, or sense of purpose and well being.
Speaker 2: And you know the fact that everyone was painted with
Speaker 2: the same stroke, the fact that there were people who
Speaker 2: had had long term adultery and affairs, and then there
Speaker 2: were some people who had actually never ever had an
Speaker 2: affair that only just signed up to the site. Were
Speaker 2: all seen as equally as bad as each other. I
Speaker 2: think that that's where the real gray area around, like
Speaker 2: who was more in the wrong when it comes to
Speaker 2: this kind of conversation. And then the thing I thought
Speaker 2: was so interesting so that the CEO of Ashley Madison,
Speaker 2: this guy named Noel Bidterman, he was kind of at
Speaker 2: the forefront of this entire site, like it was his personality,
Speaker 2: his pizazz, his media presence. He did not shy away
Speaker 2: from the controversy of affairs even though he was supposedly
Speaker 2: in a committed relationship himself. His wife was also one
Speaker 2: of the figureheads of Ashley Madison, and they really leant
Speaker 2: into this idea of like even though he was in
Speaker 2: a monogamous relationship supposedly. He was so clever in how
Speaker 2: he really lent into this idea that all publicity is
Speaker 2: good publicities. And you know, he would be on some
Speaker 2: like religious esque talk shows whether debating whether or not
Speaker 2: that there was an ethical standpoint. He was saying, well, look,
Speaker 2: everyone cheats. I didn't create cheating. I just created a
Speaker 2: safe platform for which people could do it on anyway.
Speaker 2: During this data league, it's revealed that he was also
Speaker 2: having extramarital affairs, which his wife had no idea about.
Speaker 2: And one of the n tiles that came up because
Speaker 2: Noel Bitterman he refused and declined to comment on all
Speaker 2: of that part of it. He was stepped down as
Speaker 2: a CEO. It frames him as though he was also
Speaker 2: a victim of the data breach, So even though he
Speaker 2: was having an affair on his wife, he was also
Speaker 2: someone who was caught up in this defaming of his
Speaker 2: public figure. And I thought that that was a really
Speaker 2: interesting twist on the whole thing. It kind of packaged
Speaker 2: it up for me.
Speaker 1: Well, I think when you say like this is fine,
Speaker 1: I think this is funny. When you say who's morally
Speaker 1: at fault, Like, who's morally worse a person cheating on
Speaker 1: the person that's leaked the data? I had this same thought,
Speaker 1: but in a different sense, morally speaking. It came out
Speaker 1: that not everyone on the platform was real, right, Not
Speaker 1: all the women on there were real. They were bots.
Speaker 1: There were fake people with fake profiles, and they were
Speaker 1: there to lure these I'm saying men, but they were
Speaker 1: The women were fake, were there to lure the men
Speaker 1: into the site. And everything was paid on the site,
Speaker 1: so you didn't just pay your membership, but then when
Speaker 1: someone wrote to you you could see like a little bubble,
Speaker 1: and to continue the chat you had to pay more money,
Speaker 1: buy more credits, so it was always paying more and more,
Speaker 1: more and more. Once you were on there, and when
Speaker 1: I didn't know all this time, Like I've always known
Speaker 1: about Ashley Madison, but I never knew it was I
Speaker 1: never it never crossed my mind that they'd be fake
Speaker 1: profiles on there. I just thought people went on, they
Speaker 1: all fucked, they all had their affairs, and then they
Speaker 1: got on with their life. But when it came up
Speaker 1: that there were these bots on there and they were fake,
Speaker 1: I was like, that is so unfair to that person
Speaker 1: that is paying that. And then I was like, hang on,
Speaker 1: that person's paying their money to cheat on their wife.
Speaker 1: And I was like, which is morally worse the fact
Speaker 1: that someone's gone to pay money to cheat or the
Speaker 1: company that is taking the money for them to cheat
Speaker 1: and it's fake. I was like, it's which is a burse,
Speaker 1: the chicken or the egg. But I didn't know who
Speaker 1: I felt more so for. I sort of felt so
Speaker 1: for the person trying to have the affair, because I
Speaker 1: was like, they're not even on the other end, Like
Speaker 1: there's not even a woman that you're talking to.
Speaker 2: You've just been docks to the entire world for the
Speaker 2: affair that you didn't have with a bot with exactly.
Speaker 1: And the man there's this one man and I felt
Speaker 1: really sorry for him because he wasn't. He was one
Speaker 1: of the men on the documentary that was just talking.
Speaker 1: I got the impression he wasn't in a relationship. He
Speaker 1: was just a single man that wanted to go and
Speaker 1: meet a woman as a swinger. Yeah, he was a swinger.
Speaker 1: So I felt like he was you know, he wasn't
Speaker 1: doing the wrong thing. So I think I had more
Speaker 1: empathy for him. But it was really sad. He was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I was writing to all these people and
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm a lot of fun to hang around,
Speaker 1: and he was really sweet, and then he's like, no
Speaker 1: one was writing back to me and my heart program
Speaker 1: because I was like, there were all these It showed
Speaker 1: all the messages he wrote and no one responded, and
Speaker 1: just because they were all bots.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same as being on any dating site, right,
Speaker 2: like some people are going to hit home runs, some
Speaker 2: people are going to get nothing. It's you know, it's
Speaker 2: all very dependent. But the documentary is so interesting, go
Speaker 2: and watch it. I mean, no matter how morally corrupt
Speaker 2: you think cheating is, I think that that's something that
Speaker 2: pretty much everyone can agree on to some extent, that
Speaker 2: like cheating is the reason why it is so just
Speaker 2: like so hurtful and so insidious, and like it ruins
Speaker 2: relationships so much, is because of the breakage of trust, right,
Speaker 2: And it's that one person thinks they're living a certain life,
Speaker 2: one person thinks that everything is one way, and then
Speaker 2: it's almost like their entire reality was Alie and it's rediscovering, well,
Speaker 2: what is our relationship if it wasn't the version of
Speaker 2: it that I've been living, And what's the version of
Speaker 2: it that you've been living.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the last thing that I want to say
Speaker 1: that I found really fascinating, and it goes back to
Speaker 1: the point of when the founder said, you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't create cheating, I'm just giving you a space for
Speaker 1: it people who've always cheated, was when they they sort
Speaker 1: of were trying to take Ashley Madison brand global and
Speaker 1: they took it to Asia and they took it to
Speaker 1: South Korea because they were trying to take it global,
Speaker 1: and infidelity there is a crime. It is illegal, and
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, why would you take that there? They're
Speaker 1: having between twenty to forty thousand sign ups a day
Speaker 1: in South Korea, but these numbers, when they're put right
Speaker 1: in front of you on a screen, really took me back.
Speaker 1: I was like, I actually can't believe how common it is.
Speaker 1: Now when you see the numbers there in black and
Speaker 1: white in front of you, I was definitely taken back.
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, it's far more common than I thought.
Speaker 1: It was the only thing that I really thought about
Speaker 1: those you know, up to forty thousand people signing up
Speaker 1: per day. Was like, this is a company that had
Speaker 1: no issue with lying about the validity of the people
Speaker 1: on the website. It had no issue with, you know,
Speaker 1: creating a bit of a false narrative that data came
Speaker 1: from Ashley Madison. So I'm like, do we take this
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt? I even question the amount
Speaker 1: of people signed up now, I'm like, do you just
Speaker 1: want to create the kind of picture that this is
Speaker 1: a lot more normal in quotation and what it actually is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, with absolutely. We're only giving the information we're
Speaker 1: given and that's all we can talk about. But I
Speaker 1: still I don't believe that they have it, even if
Speaker 1: that's exaggerated. I don't believe they went to the country
Speaker 1: and no one signed up. I would love to know
Speaker 1: if any other third parties have had access to be
Speaker 1: able to confirm these numbers that would be really interesting.
Speaker 2: I agree with what you said, Keish in terms of
Speaker 2: like creating this illusion, but I also think then there's
Speaker 2: like another question that you compose yourself, which is like, well,
Speaker 2: what defines cheating? Because, like we said, you know, some
Speaker 2: people are using it and actually having real life meetups,
Speaker 2: some people are just using it for online validation to
Speaker 2: get text messages. People use online dating and have very
Speaker 2: varying degrees of what constitutes cheating. That I think is
Speaker 2: a whole, separate kettle of fish that we can unpack
Speaker 2: on a whole other episode.
Speaker 1: But it's definitely our reco of the week. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, when we talk about vibes and unsubscribes,
Speaker 2: the three of us sat and watched all three episodes
Speaker 2: last night independently by ourselves texting each other, and it's
Speaker 2: I just found it so interesting because it really was
Speaker 2: a cultural phenomenon between twenty fifteen and twenty twenty. In addition,
Speaker 2: I mean, I know, we kind of just did an
Speaker 2: entire vibe and unsubscribed this week. The whole episode is
Speaker 2: a vibe. But I do want to recommend Esther Perell's
Speaker 2: her podcast. I know that it's one that's been out
Speaker 2: for a little while, but that she's just brought out
Speaker 2: the new season of it, and that's where should we begin.
Speaker 2: And I was listening to one of the episodes the
Speaker 2: other day. It's called Donor Daddy. So basically this podcast
Speaker 2: is couples come in and they sit down for a
Speaker 2: one only therapy session where they unpack whatever the big
Speaker 2: issue is in their relationship. They definitely don't walk away
Speaker 2: with all the answers, but it is so voyeuristic and
Speaker 2: so interesting to hear about the issues and complexities of
Speaker 2: other people's relationships. And obviously, if you're listening to this podcast,
Speaker 2: you're probably quite interested in people's relationships. So this episode,
Speaker 2: Donor Daddy was all around a man who was in
Speaker 2: a committed relationship. He'd had an affair in the past,
Speaker 2: but they were in a really good place now, and
Speaker 2: his wife had found out that before they were married,
Speaker 2: he had actually donated his sperm to one of their
Speaker 2: mutual lesbian cup friends, and so he had a biological
Speaker 2: child to another set of parents. But he also had
Speaker 2: biological children with his wife, and so she was dealing
Speaker 2: with the betrayal. She was also dealing with the complexities
Speaker 2: around what does it mean that he has other biological children?
Speaker 2: And should their children know that they're related? It was
Speaker 2: so interesting. I was like, Wow, some people really have
Speaker 2: some things disorder out.
Speaker 1: My life's not so bad. My own relationship ain't so bad.
Speaker 2: It's not so bad that I forget things and Matt
Speaker 2: forgets to tell me that the electricity is getting cut
Speaker 2: off on a Thursday.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, my vibe is also TV show. It's on
Speaker 1: Apple TV. It is called Hi Jack. Do you know
Speaker 1: Idris Elba the actor? He's absolutely brilliant. This whole series
Speaker 1: is set on a plane. I was like, how could
Speaker 1: that possibly be good? So I kept going past o.
Speaker 2: My god, sounds like snakes on the SLA having flashbacks.
Speaker 1: That was horrible. Yeah, I'll make it end. I was
Speaker 1: like stakes on a plane, Like why am I gonna
Speaker 1: watch this? I kept going past the past it, and
Speaker 1: then I saw somebody else raving about it, and I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, maybe there's nothing else to watch. I'll
Speaker 1: give it a go. Also, it oh so hard. What's
Speaker 1: the thing of him? Just because he's soanly and who
Speaker 1: is he? Yeah, I've got a picture of him because
Speaker 1: I knew you. Ah yeah, BEAUTI yeah, you wouldn't kick
Speaker 1: you up it. He's also in Luther. Back to Hijack,
Speaker 1: it's on this plane. It's just from Jubid to London.
Speaker 1: It's a flight that gets hijacked, and it's just the
Speaker 1: main character trying to negotiate his way out of it
Speaker 1: and calm everyone down and figure out what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: And you wouldn't think so much could happen on a plane,
Speaker 1: but it does. And I'm just I've been hooked. The
Speaker 1: only the only caveat is it's also one of those
Speaker 1: series where they've dropped like the first half and then
Speaker 1: you're up to date now, so you have to wait.
Speaker 1: So it's coming out week by week now, so the
Speaker 1: next oh my god, next episodes tonight.
Speaker 2: Can I just say, for this whole time, until you
Speaker 2: got to the end of what the plot line was,
Speaker 2: which has been like several weeks.
Speaker 1: We just talked about hot No no, no.
Speaker 2: I thought it was called Hi Jack, Like the person's
Speaker 2: name was Jack and you were saying Hi. I've just
Speaker 2: realized you put a big space when you say hi.
Speaker 2: You say hi, I can hijack, hijack, hijack, hijack.
Speaker 1: Anyway, what platform is it on Apple? Okay? My vibe
Speaker 1: for the week is actually a podcast of someone that
Speaker 1: we have had on the show, Grace Beverley. Her podcast
Speaker 1: is called Working Hard Hardly Working. She had a very
Speaker 1: controversial guest this week and I could not stop listening
Speaker 1: to it. Do you guys remember the scandal that involved
Speaker 1: Caroline at Callaway? I do yes. In twenty twelve, she
Speaker 1: kind of was one of the very initial Instagram influences,
Speaker 1: hugely famous for kind of not really being a famous
Speaker 1: person right.
Speaker 2: Her whole entire life has.
Speaker 1: Been embroiled with scandals and lies. So she even lied
Speaker 1: on her application to get into Cambridge and that was
Speaker 1: a lot of what her Instagram post was about. In
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, she secured a half a million dollar book deal,
Speaker 1: but she never had any intention of actually writing the book,
Speaker 1: and she ended up having to payback the publishers one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars that they gave her as an advance.
Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, her ex best friend, who she had
Speaker 1: employed to write captions for her, did this Tell All
Speaker 1: Peace with the Cut and basically claimed that Caroline was
Speaker 1: a liar, like a full scammer, that she was actually
Speaker 1: responsible for a lot of her writing, and in that
Speaker 1: same week, her father died by suicide. So she was
Speaker 1: kind of in this position where she was being canceled
Speaker 1: and she was actually dealing with like a lot in
Speaker 1: her personal life obviously anyway, so she kind of went
Speaker 1: into the shadows. And then she's come back this year
Speaker 1: with an actual book she's actually written.
Speaker 2: She finally did it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently it's written incredibly well. So the book is
Speaker 1: called Scammer. And so this whole podcast episode where she
Speaker 1: sits down with Grace Beverly, they have all these parallels
Speaker 1: in their life. You know, Grace went to Cambridge and sorry,
Speaker 1: Grace went to Oxford while she was at Cambridge, and
Speaker 1: they were both Instagram influencers at the same time.
Speaker 2: But they've taken these really different.
Speaker 1: Paths and one was honest, one wasn't.
Speaker 2: This is what's.
Speaker 1: Quite strange about it is that in this particular episode
Speaker 1: with Grace, she talks a lot about how she had
Speaker 1: a drug addiction and how that fueled a lot of
Speaker 1: her quite manic behavior and even now sober. My impression
Speaker 1: of her was that she is quite a manic person,
Speaker 1: but she's got this weird, quirky innocence about her, like,
Speaker 1: I actually don't even know what my personal opinion of
Speaker 1: her personality is. She's quite a complex person. But she
Speaker 1: does compare herself to other scammers that we know, like
Speaker 1: Anna Deelvi, Billymopharland, And she was like, yeah, but the
Speaker 1: difference is that I'm not in fucking federal prison, Like
Speaker 1: I didn't break the law, and yet I'm kind of
Speaker 1: held to this same social.
Speaker 2: Justice as what they were.
Speaker 1: But they scammed people out of a lot of money,
Speaker 1: whereas I paid a lot of people back. And it's
Speaker 1: just a very interesting episode, really complex kind of issues,
Speaker 1: Like you don't want to hate her even though she
Speaker 1: did the wrong thing. Yeah, I don't want to hate her,
Speaker 1: but I also don't want to support her, like I'm
Speaker 1: not like I want to go hang out with you.
Speaker 2: I didn't like her, but I didn't dislike her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it also sounds like she's on the rebrand trail.
Speaker 2: Is the PR trail when people have gone So when
Speaker 2: people have gone into the dust from being canceled for
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you know they have this not everyone,
Speaker 2: because not everyone is warranted or able to achieve one.
Speaker 2: I shouldn't say warranted, but some people are very good
Speaker 2: at the public rebrand, and it sounds like that's what
Speaker 2: this is for her.
Speaker 1: It's working because look at you. She scounted people, but
Speaker 1: she said, sorry, well she is. Really it's super strange
Speaker 1: because you know that this person has lied so much
Speaker 1: to get where they are, but this episode felt super honest.
Speaker 1: She was like, my Instagram account started because I purchased
Speaker 1: followers and I purchased Instagram likes. It's almost like she
Speaker 1: understood how these things would work before they were even things,
Speaker 1: which now you've got me thinking that she's just very,
Speaker 1: very very good at understanding pr and she this is
Speaker 1: like a whole other maneuver. But look, she has written
Speaker 1: the book now and she's kind of detailed a lot
Speaker 1: about that, and I don't know a lot about her life.
Speaker 1: I really recommend theisode Working Hard, Hardly Working by Grace Beverly.
Speaker 1: It is the most recent episode. You can listen wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Also, I just.
Speaker 1: Want to reiterate we always put the links to our
Speaker 1: vibes in the show notes. We get a message at
Speaker 1: least every day being like, what was that vibe?
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to an episode and you get to
Speaker 1: the end of the episode and you're like, oh, I
Speaker 1: can't remember what that was, and you don't want to
Speaker 1: go back and find it. It will be linked in
Speaker 1: the show notes. Question number one. I've just found out
Speaker 1: I'm pregnant. It was a big surprise. Congratulations and congratulations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been sleeping hopefully. Oh hang on, no, congrats. But
Speaker 1: the next sentence is we should have pre read this one.
Speaker 1: I've been sleeping with the same two guys for months now,
Speaker 1: and it could be either one of them as the father,
Speaker 1: as I slept with them both two days apart, and
Speaker 1: I conceived somewhere around there. Other than being super confused
Speaker 1: about what to do with the pregnancy, I am also
Speaker 1: confused about what is best to do in regards to
Speaker 1: telling these guys. Should I tell them both? Should I
Speaker 1: not tell them at all? I don't know what to
Speaker 1: do do ps. Why is the healthcare system so judgy
Speaker 1: about unplanned pregnancies. I've had so many questions already, pretty
Speaker 1: much asking me when I'm going to get an abortion,
Speaker 1: seen as it was unplanned and I'm single. How awful?
Speaker 2: Oh that's really shit, that's fuck, Like, yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: that for the second part of that, that's really right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the healthcare part.
Speaker 2: You don't need us to tell you, but if you
Speaker 2: do need it, I'll say it anyway. And for anyone
Speaker 2: else listening to this, whoever gets into this position, you
Speaker 2: can make whatever decision is right for you, because you
Speaker 2: have body autonomy. And if you feel like you're ready
Speaker 2: to be a mom and a parent and you want
Speaker 2: to do it on your own or in whatever capacity
Speaker 2: that looks like, you have every right to regardless of
Speaker 2: whether it's an accident, regardless of whether you know exactly
Speaker 2: who the parent is or the father is or not.
Speaker 2: And you know, don't be made to feel bad for this,
Speaker 2: because this could happen to so many people.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of us, we're just lucky
Speaker 2: it didn't. I think a lot of us would have
Speaker 2: had multiple sexual partners within short time of each other.
Speaker 2: And it is a matter of luck and circumstances that
Speaker 2: other people haven't been in this position. And I'm sure
Speaker 2: there's been so many women who have been in this position.
Speaker 2: You have nothing to feel shameful about. Does that make
Speaker 2: it less uncomfortable for you to have to go and
Speaker 2: have the conversation with the guys. No, of course that's
Speaker 2: going to be something that's a little bit uncomfortable, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be. You don't have to walk
Speaker 2: into that conversation with shame unless you specifically lied and
Speaker 2: said I'm not sleeping with anyone else, it's only you,
Speaker 2: then obviously that's a trickier conversation. But I think, firstly,
Speaker 2: take care of your well being, make a decision for yourself,
Speaker 2: have a chat to the people around you who love you,
Speaker 2: who support you, and make the best decision for you.
Speaker 2: Whether that is going through with this pregnancy or whether
Speaker 2: it is having a termination. But either of those decisions,
Speaker 2: it's up to.
Speaker 1: You to choose.
Speaker 2: And I also think before you do make that decision,
Speaker 2: seek out podcast episodes, seek out people who have been
Speaker 2: in a similar position, who have chosen both options. And
Speaker 2: I say this because so, for example, Booker Nile, she's
Speaker 2: just had a baby to somebody who she's co parenting with.
Speaker 2: I don't know the surrounding situations of their relationship, but
Speaker 2: she was on Maths a few years ago. The person
Speaker 2: that she's had the baby with, she's not in a
Speaker 2: relationship with, so now they're co parenting. We're very much
Speaker 2: being brought up on the traditional you know, you're in
Speaker 2: a relationship, you have a baby. But I think there's
Speaker 2: so much more choice now, so I think really seek
Speaker 2: out people who have done it, who have paid the way,
Speaker 2: and see if it's the life that you want. You know,
Speaker 2: if you want to be a single mum. That's the
Speaker 2: first step. The second step is do you have to
Speaker 2: have a conversation with these men. You only have to
Speaker 2: have a conversation with them if you choose to keep
Speaker 2: the baby, or if you want them to support you
Speaker 2: through a termination. If you want to have a termination yourself,
Speaker 2: you can do that and you don't have to speak
Speaker 2: to them. That's how I feel about it. I think
Speaker 2: if you are happy to have your friends or your
Speaker 2: family be or support people, then you don't necessarily owe
Speaker 2: it to them to sit down and have a conversation
Speaker 2: about your fertility, the fact that you're pregnant, and the
Speaker 2: fact that this is happening, especially if you don't know
Speaker 2: who is the biological father.
Speaker 1: I agree with everything you just said. I don't know
Speaker 1: what more I would add, other than really to reiterate
Speaker 1: that it is your body and it's your choice one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. You do need to have the conversation. I
Speaker 1: think if you choose to keep the child, because the
Speaker 1: father is entitled to know that they're a father. I
Speaker 1: really do believe that. And maybe that's just me. Maybe
Speaker 1: there's other people out there that think that they don't
Speaker 1: have to tell them that they have a kid in
Speaker 1: the world, but I'm not one of them. No, I
Speaker 1: think the man is entitled to know. He might be stoked,
Speaker 1: he might have always wanted to be a dad. He
Speaker 1: also might freak the fuck out and be like, I'm
Speaker 1: not ready for this. It's hard too, because we don't
Speaker 1: know your relationship with these men. Have you been sleeping
Speaker 1: with them both for years and you're close to them
Speaker 1: and you have a love for each other. That's you know,
Speaker 1: a friends with benefits or is it someone you just met,
Speaker 1: because that can change things in your mind about what
Speaker 1: you want to do for sure, But at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, no one can make the decision. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: accept you and that sucks because it feels like the
Speaker 1: weight of the world is probably on your shoulders. If
Speaker 1: you feel like you want to talk to these two
Speaker 1: men and gauge how they would feel, I think that
Speaker 1: that could also make a big impact on your decision, because,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, it will change things. If one
Speaker 1: of them is going to be really active in the
Speaker 1: child's life and say that they will support it financially,
Speaker 1: they will support you emotionally. There's a big difference knowing that,
Speaker 1: and that could change. They could say that now, and
Speaker 1: of course in the future it could change. No one's
Speaker 1: going to know what's going to happen in the future.
Speaker 1: But you could also go and talk to them and
Speaker 1: they could both be like, what the fuck, Like, we
Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with this, which makes it harder,
Speaker 1: and that makes it harder again. So if you think
Speaker 1: knowing how they feel about it is going to help
Speaker 1: the situation, help your decision one hundred percent, ask them.
Speaker 1: But again, it's like, all we can do is talk
Speaker 1: this out for you. It's a really hard decision that
Speaker 1: you're going to make on your own.
Speaker 2: Have you seen that episode of Bridget Jones's Diary where
Speaker 2: she's like pregnant but she doesn't know which guy is
Speaker 2: the dad and then remember that, so I think it's
Speaker 2: number two or three, I can't remember, But anyway, Bridget Jones,
Speaker 2: she's pregnant and it could be the man that she's
Speaker 2: always been in love with, or it could be the
Speaker 2: naughty boy, which was Hugh Grant, and then it turns
Speaker 2: out that it was like the lovely plucid fan that
Speaker 2: she'd always been in love with. There is a thing
Speaker 2: called amniocentisis. It's a test that can be done in eutropes.
Speaker 2: So basically, it's a needle it collects amniotic fluid and
Speaker 2: in that amniotic fluid is DNA from the baby. Often
Speaker 2: they use it to test for genetic abnormalities, but it
Speaker 2: can also be used to test for DNA. So if
Speaker 2: you've made the decision and you want to get that
Speaker 2: test done, you can also wait. So you could wait
Speaker 2: until you're past a certain point in pregnancy. You could
Speaker 2: have that test, and then you could go and ask
Speaker 2: for the two men to provide them samples because you
Speaker 2: want to do a DNA test. Obviously, hopefully one of
Speaker 2: them says yes, and then you'll, you know the rule
Speaker 2: of elimination, maybe both of them will say yes. But
Speaker 2: I think like you have many options, and you have many,
Speaker 2: I mean very very big decisions. Ultimately, whatever you choose,
Speaker 2: whether it's to have an abortion or it's to have
Speaker 2: this child. That choice is completely up to you and
Speaker 2: you should feel no shame over either of those options.
Speaker 1: I did an interview yesterday Laura actually really unwell and
Speaker 1: couldn't do it, unfortunately, but this has really reminded me
Speaker 1: of it. She's a woman in the UK. It's coming
Speaker 1: out in a few weeks, but she's a single mum
Speaker 1: and she really really really drove home an interview. You
Speaker 1: and you alone, as the individual, as the woman, need
Speaker 1: to really really want this child, and that decision shouldn't
Speaker 1: be based on somebody else in your life, like the
Speaker 1: man or the partner, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: especially in this situation, a lot of that is going
Speaker 1: to be falling on you. So as hard as it is,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have in your mind, Okay, if I go
Speaker 1: to this man and he says he's excited, I'm going
Speaker 1: to keep it, and if he says he's not excited,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to keep it. I wouldn't put it
Speaker 1: as something as simple as that, because you inside and
Speaker 1: you alone, have to really really think that this is
Speaker 1: something that you want in your life totally.
Speaker 2: Also, because it's a good chance that you barely know
Speaker 2: these people like you might not know how they're going
Speaker 2: to show up in parenting. They might say, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll be a great dad, and then they might be
Speaker 2: an absolute dropkick. So like, I think you know, like
Speaker 2: absolutely what you said, Like the decision has to be
Speaker 2: solely made by you, and if you do decide to
Speaker 2: have an abortion, you don't have to tell them to
Speaker 2: either of them.
Speaker 1: No question Number two. I'm thirty five and I've been
Speaker 1: divorced for twelve months. I met this guy at a
Speaker 1: work event three months ago and we instantly connected. Now,
Speaker 1: I had sworn off anything serious for a while as
Speaker 1: I worked through the post marriage life change, et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera. But when I met this man, I let
Speaker 1: nature take its course. It started as and.
Speaker 2: Getting down to.
Speaker 1: It started as a three day conference event, and then
Speaker 1: he flew home to London. Now we have spoken every
Speaker 1: day since. We are planning a rendezvous in two weeks
Speaker 1: in Bali. Here's the catch. As soon as he got
Speaker 1: back to London, he told me that he still lives
Speaker 1: with his ex. They broke up in November and she
Speaker 1: was going to be moving out.
Speaker 2: No. Three months later, been there, baby, it's probably the
Speaker 2: same guy I dated Three months.
Speaker 1: Later, he's still living with her, and last week she
Speaker 1: told him she wanted to get back together and can't
Speaker 1: imagine life without him. I met a loss as to
Speaker 1: what to do. He has been upfront with me, but
Speaker 1: has been struggling with the emotional toll of the whole
Speaker 1: situation right now with her, No, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: starting to back away from him, which is probably good.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be the other woman. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be the rebound he's told me that I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't want the drama. Also, the long distance thing
Speaker 1: is something I can handle. But am I being unreasonable
Speaker 1: to tell him that now he really has to stop
Speaker 1: living with her if he actually wants to be with me.
Speaker 2: I this is like igniting traum And this was my
Speaker 2: relationship in my twenties. This happened to me. Relationships that
Speaker 2: field is hard. People who are like, oh, we're still
Speaker 2: living together, but we've broken up. What to me that
Speaker 2: feels like is that having broken up, they weren't broken up.
Speaker 2: They were probably still in a relationship when you hooked up.
Speaker 2: And maybe he's trying to break up with his girlfriend,
Speaker 2: Maybe he's trying to sever the relationship. But I think
Speaker 2: you deserve somebody who's being transparent about where they're at.
Speaker 2: There is always a chance that they are broken up
Speaker 2: and he's just been trying to keep the peace. But
Speaker 2: if you want a relationship with him, and you want
Speaker 2: to do long distance, and you want to have trust,
Speaker 2: which is the most important thing to build a relationship off,
Speaker 2: he needs to show you and almost prove to you
Speaker 2: that what he's saying is actually congruent with what he's
Speaker 2: doing in his relationships. So that means either moving out
Speaker 2: or having some transparency that you're seeing each other, Like
Speaker 2: when you go to Bali, is you're going to post
Speaker 2: photos of you? Does the girlfriend know that he's going
Speaker 2: to meet you? The ex girlfriend know. It's the secrecy
Speaker 2: around it, and it's the inconsistencies with him saying, oh,
Speaker 2: I just need to take care of my ex girlfriend.
Speaker 2: That makes me go he's lying to you. If your
Speaker 2: instincts are telling you something is wrong, if your body
Speaker 2: is telling you that something doesn't align, listen to it
Speaker 2: because it is the most powerful tool in you actually
Speaker 2: figuring out when someone is lying to you.
Speaker 1: Okay, two things. The question is am I being unreasonable
Speaker 1: to tell him that he has to stop living with
Speaker 1: you if he wants to be with me, No, that
Speaker 1: is not unreasonable. Number two, some people do Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1: Some people do break up and stay living together for
Speaker 1: a long time for situational reasons, cost of living finances,
Speaker 1: maybe they've been together for a long time and they're
Speaker 1: trying to work their shit out mortgage or payments. You
Speaker 1: don't know, it does happen. I know. I have a
Speaker 1: friend who got into a relationship and he was living
Speaker 1: with his ex, and she was all very skeptical about it. Right,
Speaker 1: She's like, you can't do that and be with me.
Speaker 1: You're obviously something's going on. Long story short, they've been
Speaker 1: together for a long time and he still was living
Speaker 1: with the ex, so she would go over to her
Speaker 1: boyfriend's house and the X was there. It was two
Speaker 1: bedroom house and they lived there and that was real.
Speaker 1: Now I'm saying that that is probably a rarity and
Speaker 1: an exception to the rule, but it is out there,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to blanket this. If this is
Speaker 1: it really is this beautiful thing and it's your soulmate.
Speaker 1: Because I'm all about long distance, we know that. But
Speaker 1: it comes back to what Laura just said, If he
Speaker 1: can still me make you feel safe in that by
Speaker 1: posting you and making sure that the girlfriend that you know,
Speaker 1: the ex that he lives with now knows about you.
Speaker 1: If it's all out in the open, then it hits different,
Speaker 1: right because you're like, well, he's proud to be with me.
Speaker 1: She knows about it, so he's obviously not still in
Speaker 1: a relationship with her. But if he's making excuses as
Speaker 1: to why no one can know about you and he
Speaker 1: wants to keep your private and he.
Speaker 2: Doesn't want to hurt her feelings because she's she's not
Speaker 2: coping with the breakup, so he doesn't want to add
Speaker 2: to it, well.
Speaker 1: Then you call bullshit. And I think that is what
Speaker 1: it's going to take for you to figure out if
Speaker 1: this is the right thing or not. Is how open
Speaker 1: he is about the relationship one hundred percent because the
Speaker 1: situation could be real and he could be telling the
Speaker 1: truth and he could be amazing, but he could also
Speaker 1: be a fucking bullshitter that's just having an affair with
Speaker 1: someone on the other side of the world and he's
Speaker 1: living with his wife, like you don't know.
Speaker 2: Totally, and big questions are like, do you have plans
Speaker 2: to go over to where he lives at all. I
Speaker 2: know that you've mutually made the decision to meet in
Speaker 2: Balley because obviously it's closer, and it's cheaper, and it's
Speaker 2: beautiful summertime now, and it's certainly not in the UK.
Speaker 2: But is there any long term decisions to go over
Speaker 2: and see where he lives and be in his space,
Speaker 2: because I do think that that's a pretty big indicator
Speaker 2: as to whether he's lying or not lying. It's very
Speaker 2: easy for him to say I'm going on this work
Speaker 2: trip and come meet you in BALI I think going
Speaker 2: back to this idea of transparency and feeling as though
Speaker 2: you're not a secret, like brit said. And then the
Speaker 2: other part of your question. You said that they've been
Speaker 2: split up for several months now, they're still living together,
Speaker 2: and that his ex has recently said that she wants
Speaker 2: to get back with him, and he's obviously told you this,
Speaker 2: But what is his response to that, Because if he
Speaker 2: is set on the fact that they're not getting back together,
Speaker 2: then that's even more of an indication as to why
Speaker 2: they need to not be living together, because it's not
Speaker 2: a friendship. It's not to people who are mutually on
Speaker 2: the same page. And so he needs to really put
Speaker 2: some action into place where he's creating separation in what
Speaker 2: is his ex relationship and his current living space. And
Speaker 2: I think you're being completely reasonable to expect that, especially
Speaker 2: if you're going to commit to someone who lives in
Speaker 2: another fucking was.
Speaker 1: A part of me. There's like two hard baskets. Some
Speaker 1: people also just type his name into Ashley Madison and
Speaker 1: see if he's on there.
Speaker 2: All right, last question. I met this guy on Tinder
Speaker 2: seven weeks ago and we've been seeing each other every
Speaker 2: single weekend since we met. We've had such quality dates
Speaker 2: and they always last for more than five hours on
Speaker 2: the night. This is so specific. On the night we met,
Speaker 2: we had what are you looking for?
Speaker 1: Chats?
Speaker 2: I told him that I'm looking for someone to spend
Speaker 2: time with, hangout with, have fun with, and get to
Speaker 2: know before getting into anything serious. Good thing is that
Speaker 2: he wants the exact same thing. But then on one
Speaker 2: of the dates, he suggested we go away, and so
Speaker 2: we did. But while we were away, we didn't sleep
Speaker 2: together because I said I wasn't ready and felt like
Speaker 2: I needed more time. I'm gonna sum up the rest
Speaker 2: of it. They then went out on another date after
Speaker 2: they've come back from this little weekend away. But he
Speaker 2: had been a little bit mia the night prior to
Speaker 2: their date, so.
Speaker 1: They've been texting. Then he'd stopped he'd got a bit cold.
Speaker 2: Anyway, she finds out that he has gone back on
Speaker 2: the dating apps and he's been on a date with
Speaker 2: someone else, and that's why he wasn't texting her that night.
Speaker 2: And she's written, now, I know he's not ready for
Speaker 2: a relationship because he just came out of one. But
Speaker 2: is it right for a guy to spend so much
Speaker 2: time with me, take me away, and then decide to
Speaker 2: go back on the dating apps to match with more girls.
Speaker 2: We spoke about being friends for now, but then we
Speaker 2: caught up for dinner over the weekend and he held
Speaker 2: my hand and he kissed me. I don't know about you,
Speaker 2: but I don't usually make out with my friends or
Speaker 2: hold hands with them. What should I do? Should I
Speaker 2: end this? I have feelings, Jimmy stuff.
Speaker 1: The guy's just come out of a relationship. He wants
Speaker 1: to have sex. Yeah, I just think it's I actually
Speaker 1: don't think he's done anything wrong. To be honest, you
Speaker 1: feel like he's done something wrong because you actually took
Speaker 1: another step as opposed to a date. You went away
Speaker 1: for a weekend and you spend some quality time together,
Speaker 1: and it's hard because it makes you probably like them more,
Speaker 1: it makes you feel like you're getting those boyfriend girlfriend
Speaker 1: vibes because that is usually something that you do with
Speaker 1: a partner. But he's also been pretty clear that he
Speaker 1: doesn't want a relationship right now, so he's giving you
Speaker 1: some great time. When it sounds like when he's with you,
Speaker 1: he's actually been quite attentive, like he's holding your hand
Speaker 1: and kissing you and making you feel great, but he's
Speaker 1: not lying to you. He's always said this is what
Speaker 1: I want and I'm not ready for a relationship. But
Speaker 1: he's still making you feel good with the time he's
Speaker 1: giving you. I'm not saying it's fucking great, but he's
Speaker 1: not doing anything wrong. And if it's upsetting you that
Speaker 1: he's dating other people and then sometimes he's with you
Speaker 1: and sometimes he's not, if you're confused, if you feel shit,
Speaker 1: we can't ever say this enough. If you don't feel
Speaker 1: good in a situation, remove yourself from it. Because you
Speaker 1: do have that control tome. You can just say, you
Speaker 1: know what, let's just be friends friends don't make out well,
Speaker 1: friends with benefits do, but like, let's be friends without
Speaker 1: benefits because there's no benefits right now. You're not having sex, no,
Speaker 1: but they're hooking up, you know, so they are still
Speaker 1: semi benefits. But I think she's upset that in between
Speaker 1: you seeing other people, which is like, you know what,
Speaker 1: he's a young person that's single and doesn't want to day.
Speaker 2: It is what it is, Okay, So I agree undred percent,
Speaker 2: and I just want to reiterate in case anyone missed it.
Speaker 2: They spoke and the thing that they said that they're
Speaker 2: looking for and they mutually agreed is they want to
Speaker 2: spend time with, hang out, have fun, and get to
Speaker 2: know someone before anything serious. So you guys are still
Speaker 2: in there before anything serious phase.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The only other part of this I think is important
Speaker 2: is he's just come out of a relationship where he's
Speaker 2: been a boyfriend. It's so easy to do that. Like
Speaker 2: all the nice things they're cuddling, the kissing, the going
Speaker 2: away for weekends, the spending long days together. That's like
Speaker 2: full on boyfriend mode. And sometimes even though people are
Speaker 2: not looking for relationships and even though they just want
Speaker 2: something casual and they want sex because they're so conditioned
Speaker 2: to be in the comfort of a relationship, they slip
Speaker 2: into boyfriend or girlfriend mode, right, Like we can slip
Speaker 2: into that and use someone almost like as an emotional
Speaker 2: support blanket because we are so used to having that
Speaker 2: person around, and so his kind of transferred girlfriend tendencies
Speaker 2: onto you, but without any of the commitment. I think,
Speaker 2: like in terms of like going away for the weekend
Speaker 2: and spending really long time periods of time together, because
Speaker 2: if you were just going to be fuck buddies, you
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have a weekend away together.
Speaker 1: So that's where you're confused.
Speaker 2: You're like, hey, but you're doing all these things, you're
Speaker 2: planning all these things which might pertain to it turning
Speaker 2: into something more serious, but then you're also still seeing
Speaker 2: other people.
Speaker 1: I actually think it's what he's doing is nice. If
Speaker 1: I was going to casually see someone, literally, you know
Speaker 1: it's not going anywhere. You want your time together to
Speaker 1: still be good. You want to be having fun, doing
Speaker 1: fun things, laughing. You want to be getting the intimacy
Speaker 1: that you need because that's what we do, right, We
Speaker 1: want to go and get an intimacy. Hit doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you have to go and get married. I think I
Speaker 1: would rather be treated like a million dollars in the
Speaker 1: time that we are together, then traded like walk in,
Speaker 1: have sex, put some pad tie on the table, don't
Speaker 1: even get out of the container, and put a bullied
Speaker 1: it straight out of the plastic and then leave. Like
Speaker 1: for me, I think it sounds like he's doing actually
Speaker 1: all the right thing.
Speaker 2: No, I think the reason why it's confusing, And I
Speaker 2: do agree with the person who wrote this in if
Speaker 2: a guy that I was just seeing who i'd said like,
Speaker 2: let's hang out and then it might build into something serious.
Speaker 2: If he was taking me away for weekends away, I
Speaker 2: would assume that it would be turning into something serious.
Speaker 2: I would have assumed that we were heading towards something.
Speaker 2: I think the weekend of way thing is where it
Speaker 2: becomes a little bit of a that's above and beyond
Speaker 2: the necessity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it comes back to listen to what they says,
Speaker 1: like what he's telling exactly.
Speaker 2: It absolutely comes back to listen to what they say.
Speaker 2: And then also I do think the sex part of
Speaker 2: it is a big thing, Like if he's looking for
Speaker 2: something more casual, if he was expecting that, you know,
Speaker 2: a weekend away would probably mean so that he would
Speaker 2: have some sex. Then I think there is probably a
Speaker 2: part of him that's like, Okay, you're great. We obviously
Speaker 2: like hanging out with each other and we're having a
Speaker 2: lot of fun. But like the other needs that he has,
Speaker 2: which is sex, he's looking, Yeah, it's sex after he's
Speaker 2: been you know, in a long term relationship and he
Speaker 2: wants to have a bit of fun. Those needs are
Speaker 2: not being met and with you, he's not getting the
Speaker 2: sex and it's kind of just, you know, it's friends.
Speaker 2: That's then maybe going to head into a pretty much
Speaker 2: serious relationship and maybe he's not ready for that commitment yet.
Speaker 2: So ultimately, has he done anything wrong, No, not at all.
Speaker 2: Are you feeling a bit betrayed? And are you not
Speaker 2: going to get what you want out of this relationship?
Speaker 2: Who knows, but I agree with you, Britt. I think
Speaker 2: if you're not happy, then it's totally up to you
Speaker 2: to end it or I think have a few more
Speaker 2: personal sort of boundaries in place where you're like, cool,
Speaker 2: I know that you're seeing other people, So I'm not
Speaker 2: going to put all my eggs in your basket. I'm
Speaker 2: not going to take this too seriously, I'm going to
Speaker 2: decide whether I do want to have sex with you
Speaker 2: or not have sex with you, but you can determine
Speaker 2: the friendship slash relationship as well.
Speaker 1: Also, just to really drive home, don't feel bad that
Speaker 1: you didn't have sex with him or you don't want
Speaker 1: to have sex with you, because that's You're both on
Speaker 1: your separate journeys, right. He's looking for someone to sleep with.
Speaker 1: You're looking for someone to probably sleep with, but maybe
Speaker 1: take your time with the develop something more. Both are fine.
Speaker 1: It just means you probably aren't the match at this
Speaker 1: point in time because you want different things. It's totally fine.
Speaker 1: But also ask him.
Speaker 2: Like, ask him what he wants. I know he said
Speaker 2: he want someone to hang out with, and you had
Speaker 2: that conversation on date one, but you're not at date
Speaker 2: one anymore, and you've just had nice weekends away together
Speaker 2: and stuff, and maybe had the conversation of like, hey,
Speaker 2: I know we haven't slept with.
Speaker 1: Each other yet.
Speaker 2: I do feel like it's heading in that direction, but
Speaker 2: I just want to I just want to get a
Speaker 2: better gauge from you because I don't want to get
Speaker 2: myself hurt. So like, are you at all interested? In
Speaker 2: a relationship anytime soon. And if the answer is no,
Speaker 2: which I think he would be honest with you, then
Speaker 2: that kind of your cards are on the table. But
Speaker 2: I really think if you had those conversations on date one,
Speaker 2: it's absolutely okay to reassess them at date ten or
Speaker 2: whatever it's been, to kind of get a bit of
Speaker 2: a better indication, because it's clear that your feelings have changed.
Speaker 1: I was with this guy, and I say with this guy,
Speaker 1: and I've spoken about him over the years. It went
Speaker 1: for a few years, and I was in my head.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, we're obviously together because he treated
Speaker 1: me like that all the time. We did the families,
Speaker 1: we went away, we did all the stuff. But he
Speaker 1: always the whole time was consistent. He said I'm not
Speaker 1: looking for a relationship, I don't want a relationship, but
Speaker 1: his actions different. So I hung on exactly like this situation.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, human, we went away together, like
Speaker 1: what pradasarahs. But he always was like, I don't want that.
Speaker 1: And I could never get my head around and it
Speaker 1: took me years to come to this realization of fucking
Speaker 1: listen to what they say, like someone is going to
Speaker 1: tell you what they want it doesn't necessarily and you know,
Speaker 1: we do also say actions speak louder than words, and
Speaker 1: they're different things. But if someone is physically saying to
Speaker 1: you like I do not want a relationship, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to hang out with you for a while, but just
Speaker 1: so you know we're on the same page, you have
Speaker 1: to listen to that.
Speaker 2: Well, when we had Matthew Hussey on the podcast, I
Speaker 2: think this is such an important thing to reiterate if
Speaker 2: you listen to that episode, he had the most incredible
Speaker 2: advice surrounding this. Often we say listen to what they say,
Speaker 2: but it's very easy for people to say I love you,
Speaker 2: you mean everything to me, and then cheat on you,
Speaker 2: treat you badly, be toxic and abusive. He was like,
Speaker 2: it's not so easy as to say listen to what
Speaker 2: people say, right because people can lie. But you should
Speaker 2: listen to what people say when what they say is
Speaker 2: inconvenient to them. What I mean by that is he
Speaker 2: might be treating you as though you're his girlfriend. But
Speaker 2: if what he's saying to you is you are not
Speaker 2: my girlfriend and I do not want to be in
Speaker 2: a relationship, then in those instances you should not pay
Speaker 2: attention to his actions. You should pay attention to what
Speaker 2: he's saying because it is not convenient for him to
Speaker 2: say that it doesn't feel good for him, and it
Speaker 2: could actually mean that you take away the thing that
Speaker 2: he wants, which is the physical, the affirmation, the comfort
Speaker 2: of the relationship. I think when they say listen to
Speaker 2: what people say, you can only listen to what people
Speaker 2: say if their actions and words are in alignment.
Speaker 1: Also, Matthew Hussy is a god, so like he said it,
Speaker 1: so it has to be real totally.
Speaker 2: Can you just go back and listen to that episode
Speaker 2: if you need a little more clarity, we'll put it
Speaker 2: in the show notes.
Speaker 1: We'll link it anyway. Guys.
Speaker 2: That is it from us today. You can go and
Speaker 2: follow us a Life on Cut podcast on Instagram, on
Speaker 2: TikTok go follow bringing out a Score Hockey Britt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, lady, my follow has been pretty stagnant for a while,
Speaker 1: so droppin' not dropping does know, they're just just chilling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like up thirty down thirty people Okay, And also
Speaker 2: lady and cant and also if you have any ask
Speaker 2: Guncut questions, slide into the DMS and also tell us
Speaker 2: your aftermaths so we can do an aftermath episode.
Speaker 1: Don't be lazy, give us your aftermaths.
Speaker 2: You want to know if you advise and kills them.
Speaker 1: Lou sleep at night, don't forget toy Mum told you Dad.
Speaker 1: Toty dot toty. Friends and share the love because we
Speaker 1: love that. I have said that sign off four hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy times. Can you sleep that