1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: I don't like mingling. I hate mingling. I hate the 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: pressure of it. But I love interviewing. I love interviewing people. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: I love asking questions and shutting up. So if I 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: have to go to a couple of parties or meet 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: and greets and I have to do a fair bit 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: of that in my job, I just deliberately change my 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: view of it from mingling, which I hate, to interviewing, 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: and I'll just pick. If there's twenty people there, I'll 9 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: pick three of them. I'll pick them out almost before 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: I go in. I'll pick them out, and I'll deliberately 11 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: interview them. Take twenty minutes to talk to that person, 12 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 1: twenty minutes talk to that person, twenty minutes to talk 13 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: to that person, and then leave. And so I've sort 14 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: of used a strength to mitigate a weakness. 15 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat. I'm an 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of Innovation Consultancy Inventing, and I'm 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. My 20 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: guest today is Marcus Buckingham Marcus is the author of 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: a stack of best selling books, including First, Break All 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: the Rules, Now, Discover Your Strengths, The One Thing You 23 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 2: Need to Know, and stand. 24 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 3: Out, to name just a few. His latest book. 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: Nine Lives About Work, a freethinking leader's guide to the 26 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 2: real World, published by Harvard Business Publishing, takes an in 27 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 2: depth look at the lies that pervade our workplaces and 28 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: the core truths that help us change it for the better. 29 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: Marcus has appeared on a bunch of different media, ranging 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: from Larry King Live to The Today Show and The 31 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: Oprah Winfrey Show, and now leads People and Performance research 32 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: at the ADP Research Institute and remains the CEO of 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: the Marcus Buckingham Company. I was keen to get Marcus 34 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: on the show. Is here someone who challenges the status 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: quo of how organizations and people operate, and I was 36 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: really keen to see how he had applied his own 37 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: advice in his own life. I think that there are 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: some really practical takeaways from this interview, including four questions 39 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: that Marcus asks himself every single week, which I thought 40 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: were very useful. 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 3: So on that note, over to Marcus to hear about 42 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 3: how he works Marcus, welcome to. 43 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: The show, My pleasure, thank you for having me. 44 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: I want to start with asking about any daily or 45 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: weekly rituals that you have in your life that you 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: find your day or week up for success. 47 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: Well daily, which was I do a weekly check in 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: with myself where every week, and everybody in the company 49 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: does this too. But a year is fifty two little sprints. 50 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: And it's one of those weird things about human beings 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: that no matter which society you look at, wherever you go, 52 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: all the way through time, humans have had a seven 53 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: day week. And it wasn't a function of anything kind 54 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: of cosmological. It wasn't a function of the planet's moving 55 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: around the Sun or the Earth turning around every pretty 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: much every other unit of time is a function of 57 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: planetary movements, days, months, years, But a week humans made 58 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: A week like that's just created because it just seems 59 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: like it's the right time for us. And yet, no 60 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: matter which human society we've gone to and studied, everyone 61 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: has a seven day week. No one has a five 62 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: day week, no one has a fifteen day week. There's 63 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: something really beautiful and human about a seven day time period. 64 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: And so every week for us, I mean it's certainly 65 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: for me. I just spend fifteen minutes going what are 66 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 1: my priorities this week? And whose help do I need? 67 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: What are my priorities? Whose hell do I need? No 68 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: long term goal planning, none of that sort of long 69 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: term stuff. Just every week of all the things I 70 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: could be doing, what are the few things I should 71 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: be doing, and whose help do I need. It's such 72 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: a simple rhythm. The world moves really quickly. But if 73 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: you can do that for me anyway every week, it 74 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: becomes a way to be super intentional about what's important 75 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: this week, and of course the things that I thought 76 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: were important back in January, by the first week of 77 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: February it's all changed. So that kind of rhythm, it's 78 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: kind of a little every week and a lot over time. 79 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: It's super helpful. 80 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious about the second part of that, in 81 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: terms of whose help do I need? Because in terms 82 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: of like, you know, what do I want to achieve 83 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: or what do I want to get done during the week. 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: I think that's such a helpful question to ask. But 85 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: how did the second question come about? I'm curious. 86 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: Well, we've just I run this global institute right now 87 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: called the ADP Research Institute, and we've just finished this 88 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: nineteen country study of work around all of the different 89 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: countries of the world, different industries. And if you were 90 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: to say what characterizes work today, like what is the 91 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: most defining characteristic of work, it would be that we 92 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: work on teams. Nobody works alone. I know everyone saw 93 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: about the gig economy and so on, but that's all 94 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: actually a falsehood. No one works even if your financial 95 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: arrangements are that you're an individual contractor. We are all 96 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: connected and so work is always team work. There may 97 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: be one or two people that are sitting in a 98 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: shed at the bottom of the garden just all by themselves, 99 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: but that is by far the exception that proves the rule. 100 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: Eighty three percent of people say that they do most 101 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: of their work on teams. So in that context, yeah, 102 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there may be a little moments of flashes 103 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: of genius that you do all by yourself in the 104 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: course of the week, but almost everything that you're going 105 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: to try and do will involve leaning into, relying on 106 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: calling upon the strength of somebody else. And of course 107 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: you can do so much more together than you can 108 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: do alone. So thinking every single week about help whose 109 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: help is not only elevating in terms of thinking about 110 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: other people and how you can involve them, but it's 111 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: also just pragmatic. You're going to have to work with others, 112 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: so you might as well think intentionally about who those 113 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: others are. 114 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, fair enough. 115 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: A concept that you write about in your most recent book, 116 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: Nine Lives about Work. There's a whole chapter around work 117 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 2: life balance, which is a concept that you don't believe in. 118 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 3: And I'm curious as to what you know. You talk about. 119 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: Love in work, I guess as an alternative to work 120 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,679 Speaker 2: life balance, And I want to know what this looks 121 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: like in your life, because I think it's funny, like 122 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: you're clearly someone that loves what you do, and I 123 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: can certainly relate to that. And I was reading an 124 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: article in HBr just a couple of days ago around 125 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: how people that love what they do are actually one 126 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: of the groups that are at the biggest risk of burnout. 127 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: So I'm curious what does this look like in your life? 128 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 2: You know, loving what you do and finding that love 129 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: but also affording burning out at the same time. 130 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a super interesting one, isn't it. First 131 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: of all, the data in HBr I don't know what 132 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: data you're quoting, but that's unfortunately not true. We've got 133 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: really significant data that shows do what you love is 134 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: really not terribly helpful advice. Find love in what you 135 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: do is actually really helpful advice. We know from significant 136 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: male clinic data that if you have if you're a doctor, 137 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: and you've got less than twenty percent of your activities 138 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: in work are things that you love, with each percentage 139 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 1: point below twenty percent, there's a commensurate at one percentage 140 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: point increase in burnout risk. So we actually know causally 141 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: that there's a really strong negative relationship between doing things 142 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: that you love and burnout. If you do less and 143 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: less and less activities that you love, your burnout risk 144 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: goes up and up and up and up and up. 145 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: Now funnily enough, but beyond twenty percent you don't see 146 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: a commensurate decrease in burnout risks. So if you're twenty 147 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: five percent thirty five forty percent half of the activities 148 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: on your job with things that you love, you don't 149 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: get a commensurate increase in resilience and decrease in burner. 150 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: So it almost seems as though a little love goes 151 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: a long way. We don't need to fill our entire 152 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: week with activities that we love. But if we get 153 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: below twenty percent, we got a problem. So twenty percent 154 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: I called them in chapter eight of the book red threads. 155 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: Everybody's work life has got these different threads, some blacks 156 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: and gray, some white, whatever, Lots of different activities, lots 157 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: of different situations and contexts and people. But some of 158 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: those contexts and situations and people have a different valence 159 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: and different emotional valance to them. They're made of different material. 160 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: They lift you up, they invigorate you. You lean into them, 161 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: Time goes by faster while you're doing them. Before you 162 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: do them, you look forward to them. When you're done 163 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: with them, you kind of want to do them again. 164 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: And everyone's weirdly different. Nobody's we call them red threads. 165 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: Everyone's got red threads. Activities or situations of people that 166 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: they find that actually invigorate, bring strength into you. And 167 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: everyone's just different. Not a function of gender, It's not 168 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: a function of race, certainly not a function of age. 169 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: Every one of us, just because of our own idiosyncrasy, 170 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: are drawn to certain things and repelled by others and life. 171 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: What's so beautiful about life is that life does have 172 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: so many multitudes of different activities and situations and actions 173 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: and people. It's almost it's set up to invigorate us 174 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: if we bothered to really pay attention to the particular 175 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: activities that we really love. And so when you think 176 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: about work life balance, the problem initially there, of course, 177 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: and it's not really it's not something to believe in 178 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: or not believe in. We simply have to look at 179 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: the real world. The categories of work life balance are wrong. 180 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: There is no work, there is no life on other side, 181 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: on the other end of the scale. Work is part 182 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: of life, just like family is part of life. Community 183 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: is part of life. There's life. There's not work in life. 184 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: There's life. And it's not like life is good and 185 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: work is bad and you have to balance out the 186 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: bad of the work with the good of the life. 187 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: That's just that's false categories. What we have is life 188 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: and in life, whether it's work or family or community 189 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: or wherever, there are a lot of different aspects, actions, context, people, 190 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: and some of them we lean into when some of 191 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: them we are repelled by. Whether it's being a mother, 192 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: whether it's being a friend. Everybody gets a different kick 193 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: out of different aspects of being a mother or being 194 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: a friend, being a worker, and so the categories we 195 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: should really look at aren't work and life and balancing them. 196 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: It should be love and love and deliberately imbalancing. We 197 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: should strive in life as desperately as we can for imbalance. 198 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: We should be desperately always imbalancing our life toward more 199 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: activities that we love to invigorate us and away from 200 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: those we loath. And so for me, one of the 201 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: rituals that I have we do this again. We actually 202 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: have technology tools and apps and so and to help 203 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: us do this, but we do something called love it 204 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: loath it every week when I do that check in 205 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: that was talking about, where we talk about what what 206 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: are the you know, one of my priorities for this week? 207 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: And whose help do I need? The other two questions 208 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: we ask us. And this sort of prompts us to ask. 209 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: The technology prompts us to ask this of ourselves, which 210 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: activities did you love and which did you loath? Every week? 211 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: Which you love, which your loath, which you love, which 212 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: you loath, which you love, which you loath? Fifty two 213 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: weeks a year, just so that it puts everybody in 214 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: the driving seat and myself certainly in the driving seat 215 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: for being responsible for how much love do I put 216 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: into a week? So for me, that's super helpful. I 217 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: love finding patterns in data. I love trying to make 218 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: sense of something and putting it into a presentation of 219 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: putting it into a book. I love time spent really noodling. 220 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: I love being by myself. I love being put under 221 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: pressure to have a chance to share something I loathe. 222 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: And then's a whole bunch of loads. And I don't 223 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: have to have, as I said with the Mayo Clinic data, 224 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: I don't have to have eighty percent of my week 225 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: filled with loves. But if I, boy, if I get 226 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: below twenty and some weaks I've had below twenty, and. 227 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: What do you do, Like, what do you do in 228 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 3: those weeks? 229 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: Like when you've got your load list, do you how 230 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: do you decide what to delegate and what to just 231 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: suck up? 232 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: And I guess what to just stop doing? 233 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: Well, there's some strategies that you can use that I 234 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: can use. One of the strategies for the things that 235 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: you loathe is stop doing it and see if anyone cares. 236 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just stop it. Like there's a whole 237 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: bunch of stuff that we do that we think we 238 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: should do, and you stop doing normally. Notice you know, 239 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: for me, I I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm building business, 240 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: but I don't like asking people for the clothes. I 241 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: don't like it. And what I've figured out is if 242 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: I stop asking people for the clothes, people still buy things. 243 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: They just persuade themselves. It doesn't if I don't need 244 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: to get better at closing, I actually need to get 245 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: better at doing things that make people want to close themselves. 246 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: You can actually think of the acronym stop is pretty useful. 247 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: The T the S is stopped doing it. So if 248 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: anyone cares, T stands for team up with people, Well 249 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: that the I hate. I don't like confrontation, but there's 250 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: other people on my team that do. I don't like problems, 251 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: there's other people on my team that do. There's a 252 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: bunch of activities that I love. Some of the things 253 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: I loa that I'm going to have to do, but 254 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: there are some of the things I load that other 255 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: people love, and that's kind of that's that's cool. I mean, 256 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: then the O you can think about is offer up 257 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: one of your strengths, and it might mitigate the thing 258 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: that you loathe. So I don't like mingling. I hate mingling. 259 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: I hate the pressure of it. But I love interviewing. 260 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: I love interviewing people. I love asking questions and shutting up. 261 00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: So if I have to go to a couple of 262 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: parties or meet and greets and I have to do 263 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: a fair bit of that in my job, I just 264 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: deliberately change my view of it from mingling, which I hate, 265 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: to interviewing, and I'll just pick. If there's twenty people there, 266 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: I'll pick three of them. I'll pick them out almost 267 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: before I go in. I'll pick them out, and I'll 268 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: deliberately interview them. Take twenty minutes, talk to that person. 269 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: Twenty minutes, talk to that person twenty minutes, talk to 270 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: that person, and then leave. And so I've sort of 271 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: used a strength to mitigate a weakness. And then lastly, 272 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: the p stands. But can you change your perspective on something? 273 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: Can you change your point of view on it so 274 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: that it doesn't And this is more mind games, But 275 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: if you, oh, I don't know. I mean I've run 276 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: a business a while, so sometimes you have to fire people. 277 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: If you have to do that in the course of 278 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: the week, and you know you're going to have to 279 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: do it with a couple of people, because folks are 280 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: complicated and sometimes you move them into a job that 281 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: they shouldn't have and so on, and that happens, and oh, 282 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: it's horrible. Rather than being myself up about it, can 283 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: I change my perspective on it to see that actually 284 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: having someone stay in a job that is not right 285 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: for them every single day and they know it and 286 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: you know it, that's not caring. So can I change 287 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: that conversation to think about moving this person out of 288 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: the job as actually genuinely, authentically a caring thing to 289 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: do for the person. So for any of your listeners 290 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: that are struggling with things that they loathe but have 291 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: to do, that acronym stop is actually kind of a 292 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: useful way of thinking about it. 293 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 3: That is really useful. 294 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: I particularly love the mingling one. I like you hate mingling. 295 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: I'm definitely more on the introverted side of the spectrum, 296 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: And I'm going to take that as a as a 297 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: good tip from this interview. Through things like an interview, 298 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: I like that a lot. You mentioned that one of 299 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: the things that you love is you know, sort of 300 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: looking at ideas and building those into books and keynotes. 301 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: And of course, when you write a book, and you've 302 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: written several, one of the process that an author goes 303 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: through is turning that book into a keynote speech. And 304 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: I'm curious as to what is your process of turning 305 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: a book into a speech. 306 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: The best guidance I ever got about giving speeches was 307 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: from a chap who was the president of Gallup, well 308 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: the chairman of Gallup when I joined. His name was 309 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: doctor Donald Doll Clifton, and he was sort of the 310 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: grandfather of positive psychology. But and he was a shy 311 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: guy too. He was introverted, but he could set up 312 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: on stage and talk for an hour on anything like 313 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: he was just unbelievable and not rah rah rah rah rah, 314 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: just super engaging and easy and natural. And I was like, 315 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: how'd you do that? How'd you do that? 316 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 3: Notes? 317 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: Is it learned? And he gave me this idea that, 318 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it's stuck in my brain and has 319 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: really helped me in doing any sort of presentation. He said, 320 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: You've got to think about a speech is really beads 321 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: be ea ds beads. A bead is a joe, or 322 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: it's a little story, or it's a little piece of data, 323 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: or it's a longer story. But a bead is a 324 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: thing that you like to tell people and that you've 325 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: tried it out on phone calls or in emails or 326 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 1: in a meeting. You've just experimented with beads. And if 327 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: it's a joke, it has to be something that you 328 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: think is funny. If it's a story that you have 329 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: to think, it's something that you are interested in. If 330 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: it's a piece of data, it's something that grabs your attention. 331 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: So you start always with beads that interested, that interests you, 332 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: And it might take two minutes to tell your bead, 333 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: it might take ten minutes. But you start off with 334 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: your little bead, and then over the course of a 335 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: few months, you polish your beads, You polish the story, 336 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: you make it a little bit longer, or you figure 337 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: out when you tried it at that meeting last week, 338 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: no one really understood what the heck you were talking about, 339 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: and so you go hmm. But you keep polishing your beads, 340 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: and then you string them when you give a speech. 341 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: You simply and I used to have them on two 342 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: by five cards. You know, you'd have like two hundred 343 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: and fifty two by five cards. Now today I just 344 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: keep it in my in my iPhone. But this is 345 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: like your your box of beads, and then when you 346 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: make a speech, you just string the beads. You choose 347 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: which stories, jokes, data you're going to share, and you 348 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: just ordered them into a string. And that's when I've 349 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: written a book, that's what I choose to do. I'll go, 350 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: what what are the beads from this book? Let me 351 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: try him out, try him out, try them out, try 352 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: them out for me. It ended up I actually had to. 353 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: I followed Barack Obama, of all people, last April, oh May, 354 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: and I knew I was going to have I mean, 355 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: he's amazing. I'm certainly obviously I'm not comparing myself to 356 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: Barack Obama. But he had the first morning and I 357 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: the next morning, and I was like, I'm not going 358 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: to be able to stand up in stage in front 359 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: of ten thousand people and wing this. I've got to 360 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: have my beads polished. And so that's the visual imagery 361 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: of the metaphor that I use for thinking about how 362 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: you take a ninety thousand word book and turn it 363 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: into a sixty minute speech. 364 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 3: Oh I love that metaphor. It reminds me. 365 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: I had Rachel Botsman on the show quite a few 366 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: months ago, and she described a somewhat similar process where 367 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 2: she'll almost modularize different points or stories and so forth, 368 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 2: and file them into different categories and then assemble them 369 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: in a way that makes sense depending on the context 370 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 2: and the audience and so forth. I'm curious with the beads, 371 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: how do you decide on the structure for any given presentation. 372 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: I start off with some inciting question or inciting event 373 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: that I like to think of it as if I 374 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: describe this inciting event or question, and then I say, 375 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: and I'm now going to tell you the answer. And 376 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: then if I looked at my watch, I went, oh, 377 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: my gosh, I'm tribly sorry. I have to go off 378 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: stage because I got to go pick up my kid 379 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: from school. That if I were to have set it 380 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: up right, people would tackle me before I was able 381 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: to get off stage. And so like, we've just finished, 382 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: as I said, this nineteen country study. And so for me, 383 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: I always start off by going, well, how would I 384 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: we just did a nineteen kind like who cares? About that, 385 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: what's the right way to get people's attention? And for me, 386 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: it starts with, you know, you've got to put a 387 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: couple of things in front of people that made them 388 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: go hah. 389 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 390 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: I hadn't. I hadn't thought about that, but god, now 391 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: I do. I'm like super intrigued what the answer is. 392 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: So in that case, if you put up data that 393 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: says we've looked at perposal productivity numbers in all these 394 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: large countries around the world and hasn't been any real 395 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: increase in purpose of productivity since nineteen seventy three, think 396 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: of all the time and the money and the effort 397 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: and the energy and the technology we've thrown at getting 398 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: more productivity out of people in the last fifty years, 399 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: and we haven't moved it. And then you think about 400 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: all the energy that we spent on all the books 401 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: and the training programs and everything to get people more 402 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: engaged at work, and yet engagement overall around the world 403 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: hasn't moved above sixteen percent since nineteen eighty eight. Why why, 404 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: despite all of our best efforts and intentions, have we 405 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: failed so miserably to increase either productivity or engagement around 406 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: the world. Well, We've just done this study to find 407 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: out why, and it turns out there's one thing we've 408 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: missed that it can explain almost all of the variance 409 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: and lack of improvement in productivity and engagement. Oh, I 410 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: got to go pick up my kid. Now that out 411 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: that's how I would do it, and it would. 412 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 2: That's great, and you hang on, we need closure here, macus. 413 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: Well, I can give you the speech well for me 414 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 1: like that if that's your setup, and you go, because 415 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: we've missed the elephant in the room people, then people 416 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: will go, Okay, what's the elephant in the room? Is 417 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: there any And then they'll start thinking for themselves, right, like, huh, 418 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: what is the elephant in the room. It's got to 419 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: be a pretty big elephant. But what's and then you 420 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: better have a payoff. So in this case, as it 421 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: turns out, when you look at levels of engagement and 422 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: you look at what drives levels of engagement, and another 423 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: good tip, I think what you're doing presentations is is 424 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: just play out for people what they're already thinking. So 425 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: if you do what I just did, and you say, 426 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, why haven't we seen increases in productivity or 427 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: engagement around the world? And you do this research study 428 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: and it turns out there's one fact that explains almost 429 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: all of the variants. The moment you say that, people 430 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: in their head and you're audience is starting to go, 431 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: I wonder what that is? And then they're running through 432 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: a list. Is it industry, maybe it's geography, maybe it's age, 433 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's the generations, maybe it's gender, maybe it's education level, 434 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: maybe it's length of service. You know, they'll start asking 435 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: themselves that those questions, and so it's always good, I 436 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: think anyway doing a presentation to say that, to say 437 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: what they're thinking. And so you're you're now on their side. 438 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: You know, you're you're with them, and so that's what 439 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: I would do. In that case, I would go, is it? 440 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: This is it? This is it? This is it? That 441 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: is it? This that's interesting? 442 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: Is it? 443 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: And then you can land whatever you want to land. 444 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: And in this case, what I had to land was 445 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: when you run the analysis. By far, the strongest driver 446 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: of whether or not you feel engaged in productive at 447 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: work is whether you say you work on a team. 448 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: That if you say you work on a team and 449 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: you deeply trust the team leader of the team, you're 450 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: fourteen times more likely to be fully engaged at work, 451 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: two and a half times more likely if you're just 452 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: on a team. And then if you deeply trust the 453 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: team leader, which means you say five on a scol 454 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: on one to five, then you're twelve times more likely 455 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: to be fully engaged at work. So we have missed 456 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: that all work is team work. We don't organize our 457 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: hospitals that way, we don't organize our schools that way, 458 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: we don't organize our factories that way. And even really 459 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: sophisticated companies like at Lassion and Google have no idea 460 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: how many teams they have, who's on those teams, which 461 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: are their best teams, how to build more teams like 462 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: the best teams. They don't have any idea about any 463 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: of that. Because the way that we organize everything we 464 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: do at work, from goals to leadership development to performance 465 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: to succession planning, everything at work is organized and arranged 466 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: through what are called human capital management systems, which are 467 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: the HR systems and the HR systems because they are 468 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: extensions of financial systems. Simply tell you the boxes on 469 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: the ORG chart, who reports to who reports to who, 470 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: and which salary is in which box on the ORG chart, 471 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: and yet if you ask people where they work, they'll 472 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: say eighty three percent of them say they work on teams. 473 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: But sixty five percent of those people so they will 474 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: work on more than one team, and more than three 475 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: quarters of those people say that those extra teams are 476 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: not reflected on the ORG chart. So there is a 477 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: huge swath at work that is invisible to even the 478 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: most like Google has not as face but I mean 479 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: pick up sort of whatever you think as a sophisticated company, 480 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: they don't know where the work is because they can't 481 00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: see teams. 482 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely fascinating. 483 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: And one of the other things that you talk about 484 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 2: being broken in Nine Lies is around the planning process, 485 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: which I found really interesting, and you talk about how 486 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: we need an intelligence system, and when I was reading 487 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: that part of the book, I was curious, how have 488 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: you applied that in your own working life, And maybe 489 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 2: if you could just give listeners that haven't read Nine 490 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: Lies just sort of like a snapshot of what you 491 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: mean around you know, this annual planning process that businesses 492 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 2: go on, you know, perhaps not being the best use 493 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: of their time. 494 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: I know what it's late in Australia, but certainly in 495 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: the US have a we build planning systems. Everybody's forever planning. 496 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: We put a lot of stock on plans, and plans 497 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: are defined this way. The frontline people provide data information. 498 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: That information is pushed up, up and back away from 499 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: the front line to the people who are five miles 500 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: behind the front line. Once a year, maybe twice a year. 501 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: They take all the information and they put it together 502 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: in the there's always some sort of executive summary. In fact, 503 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good definition is it's a summary for 504 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: an executive of pieces of information from the front line. 505 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 1: Those executives take the executive summary, which is summarized, and 506 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: then they'll use that summary to try and put together 507 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: plans about what we're going to go do and what 508 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: we're going to go spend and how we're going to 509 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: allocate our assets. And then the plan is put together, normally, 510 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: it's presented to the board in some way. It's then 511 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: called a strategic plan, and then that gets passed down 512 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: and passed down and passed down. And so while the plan, 513 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: the strategic plan might have been put together in October 514 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: and then approved in November, it starts to get implemented 515 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: in April, maybe March, and of course, by that time, 516 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: it's worse than useless. It's worse than useless because it 517 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: seems like it's really well put together and functional, but 518 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: it's falsely precise because the world has moved on by 519 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: the time that the plan was put together in October, yeah, 520 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: but by the time you bump into April next April, 521 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: the world's moved So your plan was put together to 522 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: engage with one set of circumstances that it's no longer real. 523 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: The plan helps you engage with the recent past. The 524 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: example we quoted in the book was General Stanley McCrystal, 525 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: who was the General charge of the Joint Special Operations 526 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: Command in Afghanistan at the end of the or maybe 527 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: it was in Iraq, I think in after the Roight War, 528 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: and he had a planning system to help him find 529 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: the bad guys, the terrorists in their cells and attack them, 530 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: kill them. And no matter how fast you run the 531 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: planning process, he kept missing. They were gone. They had 532 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: cell phones, they had small dynamic cells of people that 533 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: broke apart and moved quickly. So there's no point having 534 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: an executive summary when you're trying to find that team, 535 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: that terrorist cell hiding in that hideout on that day 536 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: in that town. Well, that's a whole bunch of specific detail. 537 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: Executive summaries don't help there. So no matter how fast 538 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: they ran their planning system, get they were always late. 539 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: They couldn't find anybody. And so what he did, it's 540 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: super smart. He flipped it around. He flipped the whole 541 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: model around, and he built an intelligence system. And the 542 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 1: characteristics of an intelligence system are that the people that 543 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: are five miles behind the front line, their entire job 544 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: really is to develop systems and rituals that enable the 545 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: people on the front line to have as much real 546 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: world information as possible. And then the people on the 547 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: front lines are the ones who take that real world 548 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: information and try and make sense of it together so 549 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: they can decide what to do. And it's the people 550 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: on the front line that take the real world, reliable 551 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: information and then make the decisions on what to do. 552 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: That's an intelligence system. And the intelligence that we're talking 553 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: about is on the front lines, in the classrooms with 554 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: the patient writing the software code. That's where the real 555 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: world is. And if you're going to engage with the 556 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: real world, you can't build a planning system. It's too slow. 557 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: Planning isn't useless because it helps you sort of scope 558 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: the problem, but it doesn't help you at all with 559 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: the solution. And that's something you know, the federal government 560 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 1: here in the US has got to figure out. I'm 561 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: sure the Australian government is a planning system. You know, 562 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: some of your big banks, I've worked with them, they're 563 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: planning systems. And it all means that they're too slow 564 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: and they're too late and through some of the certainly 565 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: some of the financial brew ha ha that's gone on 566 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: with your financial system in Australia lately. It's all the 567 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: decisions were being made in the wrong place long time. 568 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I'm sure that there are a lot 569 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: of listeners that can that are nodding their heads and 570 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: relating to this. 571 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 3: And I want to know how how does this work? 572 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: Like in your consultancy and like are there are there 573 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: still annual goals that you're aiming for? Like what what 574 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: does that look like? In your working life? 575 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: There are certainly things that are longer than a week 576 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: for us. I think I like to think of them 577 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: as as as projects. Everything's a project, so you start 578 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: with the and I like Simon Sinek stuff on this 579 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, you start with the why, what, why are 580 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: we doing what we're doing? What's the thing that gets 581 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: out of bed? I don't mean in terms of a 582 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: general mission. I mean like I run a research institute. Why, 583 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: why what are we trying to do here? Who's it for? 584 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: And so just talk a lot about In this case, 585 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: for me, oh my word, we're living in a world 586 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: of content marketing where seemingly everyone's figured out that if 587 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: you just throw a bit of a statistic here and 588 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: a bit of statistic there, we are running into a 589 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: world in which people aren't data fluent, as in, no 590 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: one knows what's true anymore. Everyone's just putting fake research 591 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: out that they don't even know it's fake. But it's 592 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: really just content marketing. So where's the source of truth 593 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: about what we know, what we provably, humbly reliably know 594 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: about the world of work? 595 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 3: Where's that? 596 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: Well that doesn't exist. So for me in the institute, 597 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: it's like, all right, let's go find some things that 598 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: we can know for sure. We don't have to overclaim, 599 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: we can underclaim actually, and then just say well, this 600 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: is what we know for sure. And then from that 601 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: point comes projects, Okay, what should we go and try 602 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: and do. What are the specific things that clearly are 603 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: going to take longer than a week that we think 604 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: are important in making that why become real? 605 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, like in terms of defining the project, 606 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: like how how tightly or loosely is a project defined 607 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: for you and your world? 608 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: Before we did this global study of engagement? We had 609 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: to define I said, we ought to. This is about 610 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: a year ago. It's like we ought to find out 611 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: we are. There is no global calibrated measure of engagement 612 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: around the world. We don't know how engaged the Japanese 613 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: are versus the people who work in the United Arab 614 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: Emirates versus the people who work in Brazil, there's no calibrated. 615 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: By calibrated, I mean the Japanese respond to scales in 616 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: a way that's meaningfully and measurably different than the way 617 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: the Brazilians do. So you can't compare data from Brazil 618 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: data to japan survey data because we know that the 619 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: Japanese respond differently in different uses of scales. 620 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 3: So where's the. 621 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: Where's that? Where's the global study of engagement that takes 622 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: into account the different nationalities and how they respond to scales, 623 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: but there isn't any So I'm like, well, we should 624 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: do that, And so then it's a function of going 625 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: on or what would that look like? How would we 626 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: get the sample, how many countries, how many people? So 627 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: then you start just breaking it down into how would 628 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: we make this real? At least that's how I work. 629 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 3: M I like that. 630 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 2: That's very cool, and now we somehow the time has 631 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: flown by and that we are now out of time. 632 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 2: So my last question for you, Macus is if people 633 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: want to consume more of what you're doing and more 634 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: of your research and thinking, how can. 635 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 3: They do that. 636 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: Obviously we put a lot of this thinking into Nine 637 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: Lives About Work, which is the book, but we also 638 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: wanted to work with Harvard to create a place where 639 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: anybody that is interested in taking these knowable truths and 640 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: apply them in the real world of work. We wanted 641 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: a place whe people could go to engage with that. 642 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: So we created a Freethinking Leader coalition. So if you 643 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: go to free thinking Leader dot org Freethinking Leader dot org, 644 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of ours. And have a business reviews 645 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: place where any leader of a small team or a 646 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: big company, a team of teams who thinks, you know what, 647 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: an awful lot of what we currently do to get 648 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: the best out of ourselves and our people is clearly 649 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: not working. What are the lies that I need to 650 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: pull back? And then what are the truths that will 651 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: uncover behind provable, measurable, tangible truths, no matter how messy 652 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: the truths are. Anybody who wants to really engage with 653 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: those tooths and make change in the world so that 654 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: we don't have another fifty years of super low engagement 655 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: and low productivity, or just maybe because of the moral 656 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: reason that you've got kids and you don't want to 657 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: go to work and feel alienated, go to freethinking Leader 658 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 1: dot org and you'll find a lot of people like you. 659 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 3: Fantastic, that's alsothing. 660 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: I will link to that in the show notes as well. Well. Marcus, 661 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: I've love chatting to you. I love nine Lies, and 662 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: I recommend it for anyone that is kind of feeling like, 663 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 2: hang on, surely there's a better way than this about 664 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 2: their organization. 665 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 3: So thank you, Marcus. It's just been an absolute pleasure, 666 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 3: my pleasure. So that is it for today's show. 667 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Marcus, and if 668 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 2: you know someone else that would enjoy it, why not 669 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: share this episode with them? And if you're enjoying how 670 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 2: I work, I would love it if you could take 671 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 2: like two or three seconds to leave a review in 672 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. And 673 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 2: thank you to all the lovely people who have left reviews. 674 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: You're wonderful and it brings a huge smile to my 675 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: face whenever I read a new review. 676 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 3: So thank you. And that is it for today and 677 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 3: I'll see you next time.