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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Studies show that the people who benefit the most from

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Speaker 2: removing the distraction of a smartphone from the school classroom

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Speaker 2: are the students who struggle at school.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Well Kylie. The topic of smartphones in schools has arisen

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Speaker 2: once again. My friend Madonna King and another one a

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Speaker 2: friend of mine, Rebecca Sparrow, have joined forces and I'm

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Speaker 2: doing some work with them on this, as well as

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Speaker 2: a couple of other people around the country who really

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Speaker 2: care about this issue a lot to discuss whether or

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Speaker 2: not Queensland should be doing what several other states have

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Speaker 2: now done and bring in a smartphone ban in schools

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Speaker 2: because smartphones calls distraction. I note that while I'm having

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Speaker 2: this conversation with you, you are staring at your screen

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Speaker 2: and not paying attention to what I'm saying. You're literally

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Speaker 2: doing that, and we did not rehearse this, and I'm

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Speaker 2: so upset at you.

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Speaker 3: I was halfway through watching a recipe.

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Speaker 2: And look, you don't even you haven't even got your

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Speaker 2: microphone in front of your face. Because you're so distracted

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Speaker 2: by your phone. You have literally just closed the argument

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Speaker 2: for me. And we haven't knew what the answer was

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Speaker 2: from the beginning, but you literally lived it for me.

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Speaker 2: Right then, folks, this is not pre arranged. That literally happened.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe you. Hello, my name's Doc Justin Coslin

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Speaker 2: here with my somewhat distracted perpetually on her phone wife Kylie.

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Speaker 2: As we can't believe you said, as we talk about

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Speaker 2: the challenge of smartphones in schools and whether or not

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Speaker 2: they should or should not be banned, I note that

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Speaker 2: you are still Oh that's right, you're turning it off now, fantastic.

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Speaker 2: Just as well. We do have some conflict in our

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Speaker 2: home about this, don't we a little? Okay? So, Rebecca

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Speaker 2: and Madonna and myself and a half of others Michelle

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Speaker 2: Mitchell are pushing really hard to ban smartphones in Queensland's

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Speaker 2: as other states have done, and I thought today it

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Speaker 2: was probably worth just unpacking this a little bit on

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Speaker 2: the podcast and talking about the reason that I'm so

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Speaker 2: against it, and I.

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Speaker 3: Don't even against spanning it.

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Speaker 2: No, no against smartphones being available in schools, but I

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Speaker 2: just realized we literally have not I've worked out what

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about. I don't even know your

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Speaker 2: position on this. I don't even know if you agree

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Speaker 2: with me should smartphones be in schools? I'd love to

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Speaker 2: get an opinion from you before I share my myriad

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Speaker 2: of reasons and all of the stuff that I want

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Speaker 2: to share here. I've got a lot to say, as

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Speaker 2: you no doubt not going to be surprised about. I'd

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Speaker 2: love to know what somebody who's a mum who doesn't

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Speaker 2: read psychological research thinks about whether or not kids should

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Speaker 2: have smartphones in schools, Like, what's your general take on this?

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Speaker 3: I think it's absolutely unnecessary and it causes so much

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Speaker 3: conflict and challenge and exposure for our kids that's completely unnecessary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. So kids are being exposed.

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Speaker 2: I mean I hear from parents constantly about how their

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Speaker 2: eight year olds, their ten year olds have been exposed

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Speaker 2: to explicit content because some kid had a smartphone at

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Speaker 2: school or an iPad at school or something like that.

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Speaker 3: You know, we had a challenging situation on our recent

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Speaker 3: crewis with one of our children, and the comment that

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Speaker 3: you made was you were so grateful that we weren't

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Speaker 3: connected and as a result, she didn't have access to

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Speaker 3: any social media or which would have had just exacerbated

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Speaker 3: the situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she had a tough time. We ended up saying, look,

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Speaker 2: don't go to the teenage hanging out kids club thing today.

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Speaker 2: You can just stay home with us, or stay in

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Speaker 2: the cabin with us, come and do our stuff, and

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Speaker 2: especially tonight you're staying in And she was really unhappy

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Speaker 2: about it. But having that distance, not having the screen

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Speaker 2: and the connection and the ongoing interaction, it made all

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Speaker 2: the difference.

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Speaker 3: You know, outside of all of those things, it's just

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Speaker 3: a distraction, an unnecessary distraction in the learning environment. I

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Speaker 3: don't it's absolutely unnecessary.

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Speaker 2: Do you have anything that you'd like to add? No,

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Speaker 2: ask me what I think?

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Speaker 3: Do you think?

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you did you say what do you think? Doctor?

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Speaker 2: Justin calls, I did say, Okay, So I have put

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Speaker 2: together a long list of what's going on here. I

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Speaker 2: don't want kids to become smombies. You're looking at me

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Speaker 2: like that's a funny word smomby social media zombie is

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Speaker 2: what smomby is. You've not heard of swomby. I'm gissing,

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Speaker 2: that's so let's be really clear. As time is going

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Speaker 2: on and research evidence is accumulating, we're starting to see

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Speaker 2: that there are both positives and negatives when it comes

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Speaker 2: to children having access to screens generally, but social media specifically.

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Speaker 3: Well, most schools these days have laptops. That's the chosen

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Speaker 3: mode of.

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Speaker 2: A lot of schools are demanding that kids are on

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Speaker 2: a screen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so a phone is literally an unnecessary accessory to learning.

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Speaker 2: This raises an important point in this whole conversation. You

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Speaker 2: can ban smartphones, but kids are We've got iPads, they've

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Speaker 2: still got tablets, they've still got computers. So it doesn't

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Speaker 2: completely resolve the issue. Kids are still going to be

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Speaker 2: on screens, They're still going to have access to social

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Speaker 2: media and so on.

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Speaker 3: Most school's laptop structures are such that a lot of

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Speaker 3: those things are.

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Speaker 2: The school shuts a lot of stuff down, and they've

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Speaker 2: got the resources, the technological resources to do that or

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Speaker 2: at least to minimize the extent which kids are doing stuff.

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Speaker 2: Having said that, I remember several of our kids have

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Speaker 2: been able to work their way around this stuff pretty easily,

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Speaker 2: and the school hasn't done anything at all about it,

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Speaker 2: which has driven both you and I up the wall.

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Speaker 2: But here's what research tells us around the different way

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Speaker 2: that social media affects kids, and this is from the

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Speaker 2: kids themselves. So one of the positives is the self

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Speaker 2: expression that it facilitates and also the validation that kids get. Now,

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Speaker 2: both positive and negative, it can be really great for

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Speaker 2: self esteem and social support and identity experimentation. Negatives around

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Speaker 2: identity experimentation, social comparison, anxiety, fear of judgment, risk of behavior.

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Speaker 2: That kind of thing is challenging. We know that it's

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Speaker 2: bad when it comes to appearance comparison and body ideals.

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Speaker 2: We know that it's bad from the pressure to stay connected,

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Speaker 2: the fear of missing out. We know that that increases distraction.

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Speaker 2: We also know that it's bad from exposure to bullying

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Speaker 2: and harmful content, explicit content, that kind of thing. But

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Speaker 2: the positives around social engagement peer support are really strong.

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Speaker 2: So the argument that we need to just get rid

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Speaker 2: of it because it's bad doesn't completely stack up. There

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Speaker 2: are some positives as well as some negatives. I guess

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Speaker 2: the big question is to what extent, to what extent

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Speaker 2: are the positives and negatives affecting schooling. And that's where

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Speaker 2: I really want to go with this conversation. But you're

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Speaker 2: busting to ask me a question.

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Speaker 3: Now, I was going to ask you a question. I

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Speaker 3: was just going to say, well, there are definitely some

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Speaker 3: positives to having it. The reality is they're not big

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Speaker 3: enough to warrant having them on site.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me share with you a couple of things

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Speaker 2: that I think are fascinating from a research point of

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Speaker 2: view around why I believe that we should be Like,

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Speaker 2: my position for the last fifteen years has been as

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Speaker 2: a parent, don't ban your kids from X, Y and Z.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to screens, you can't ban them. It

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Speaker 2: won't work. I still stand by that from a parenting

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Speaker 2: point of view. So I just want to distinguish here

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Speaker 2: we're not talking about parenting. We're talking about whether mobile

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Speaker 2: phones should be allowed in schools. It's a very different

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Speaker 2: context with completely different objectives and a totally different control

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Speaker 2: structure around it compared to what happens in the family home.

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Speaker 2: I can't be explicit enough about that you cannot do

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Speaker 2: this at home. It won't work, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: that it's going to be good for your children. But

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Speaker 2: we're talking about an educational context here, and this is

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Speaker 2: why it's different. So I want to start with something

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Speaker 2: really simple. There's this thing that we call the brain

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Speaker 2: drain studies. When we're talking about social media and telephones.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole lot of studies that have been done

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Speaker 2: where literally the mere presence of a telephone on the

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Speaker 2: table distracts people, reduces the quality of interactions socially, empathically,

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Speaker 2: it's associated with decreased capacity for memory, attention, all that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing. If I'm having a conversation with you

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Speaker 2: and you're distracted, even though you're not looking at the phone,

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Speaker 2: simply the presence of the phone, what that does is

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Speaker 2: it makes the experience worse for you and it makes

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Speaker 2: it worse for me. So we've got a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of studies that show just having a phone on the table,

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Speaker 2: we'll do that keep the phones off the table that

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Speaker 2: you've literally just put your phone on the floor. So

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Speaker 2: that's the brain drain studies. Here's the next thing. A

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Speaker 2: meta analysis that was published just in the last year

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Speaker 2: or so showed that phones create distraction and with that

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Speaker 2: smartphone use. As smartphone use goes up, we see academic

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Speaker 2: performance go down. Now, the effect statistically isn't huge, but

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Speaker 2: it's there, it's present, and this is the bit that

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Speaker 2: gets really important to me. I mean, a meta analysis

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Speaker 2: is a study of all the studies. It's where we

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Speaker 2: get as many research reports as we can that are

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Speaker 2: relevant and that meet a minimal level of criteria, and

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Speaker 2: then we have a look at what their results are

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Speaker 2: and we work out overall what the results mean. The

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Speaker 2: fascinating part of this is that studies show that the

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Speaker 2: people who benefit the most from removing the distraction of

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Speaker 2: a smartphone from the school classroom are the students who

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Speaker 2: struggle at school. So if we talk about kids who

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Speaker 2: are having a hard time at school, the best thing

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Speaker 2: we can do for them is get the smartphones out

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Speaker 2: of the environment. Because a study from Spain showed the

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Speaker 2: most benefits experienced when removing smartphones go to struggling students,

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Speaker 2: and there's also a reduction in bullying plus students. Highlighted

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Speaker 2: that social interactions improved in a separate study, and fascinatingly,

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Speaker 2: in a qualitative study that I found kids actually prefer

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Speaker 2: it when phones are out of the environment, which I

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Speaker 2: find extraordinary. They're going to fight tooth and nail saying

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Speaker 2: you can't take our phones away and they're going to

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Speaker 2: do everything they can to make sure that they can

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Speaker 2: get access to their phones even when we've said no.

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Speaker 2: And yet they're actually happy when the phone's gone, which

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Speaker 2: I thought was fascinating. Now here's another study that I

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Speaker 2: think you'll love. Most of the time, when studies are done,

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Speaker 2: we say how much time are you spending on your screen?

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Speaker 2: And what are your grades? And so people have to estimate.

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Speaker 2: But if I was to literally ask you to estimate

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Speaker 2: how much time you spend on your screen each day,

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Speaker 2: could you do it? How many hours a day do

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Speaker 2: you spend on your screen?

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Speaker 3: No? I am actually surprised how much screen time I have,

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Speaker 3: Like when I get my weekly analysis.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but and you think to yourself, I can't possibly

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Speaker 2: be spending five hours a day on my screen.

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Speaker 3: But that's because I use Google Maps for everything.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it includes Google Maps, does right?

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Speaker 2: And podcasts and so. But this is the critical thing here.

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Speaker 2: If you listen to podcasts, if you're using Google Maps,

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Speaker 2: if you've got Spotify playing, shouldn't that be counting towards

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Speaker 2: whether or not you're doing well on your GPA with

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Speaker 2: your school performance? Like there are all kinds of things

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Speaker 2: that we use our phones. No, no, But the point

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Speaker 2: still stands, we use our phones for a multiplicity of actions,

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Speaker 2: for our range.

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Speaker 3: During the school day, there shouldn't be any need for

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Speaker 3: a phone and for any of the things that the

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Speaker 3: phone offers.

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Speaker 2: All I was going to say is we can't even

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Speaker 2: objectively guess how much time we use per day, Like,

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Speaker 2: we have no idea how much time we spend on

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Speaker 2: We have to go on look it up to find it.

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Speaker 2: But in a lot of the studies, they say how

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Speaker 2: many hours a day you spending and then they correlate

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Speaker 2: that with GPA and they come up with their thing.

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Speaker 2: But a recent study looked at Apple screen time stats,

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Speaker 2: so we've got exact numbers correlated that with GPA. Guess what,

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Speaker 2: the research.

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Speaker 3: Show, the greater the use of the phone, the lower

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Speaker 3: their GPA.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much, that was exactly it. So we see all

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Speaker 2: of these reasons that when it comes to distraction, when

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Speaker 2: it comes to relationships, when it comes to pressure to

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Speaker 2: state it connected, when it comes to bullying, no matter

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Speaker 2: what it is, if you look at it, we see

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Speaker 2: that smartphones are not giving us great things. My argument,

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Speaker 2: this is my summary argument for a smartphone ban in

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Speaker 2: schools The research shows that when there's less distraction, you

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Speaker 2: get better academic performance. The research shows that when there's

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Speaker 2: less smartphone usage, you get more physical activity. The data

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Speaker 2: shows that you see an increase in in person social interactions,

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Speaker 2: and those social interactions are improved when smartphones aren't in

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Speaker 2: the picture.

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Speaker 3: Well, how many times have you walked into a room

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Speaker 3: of teenagers and they're all sitting together, but they're on

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Speaker 3: their phones. That's just no conversation happening.

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Speaker 2: But before I summarize my main point and really close

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Speaker 2: this argument down, I just want to acknowledge that there

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Speaker 2: are arguments against the smartphone ban, and they're good arguments,

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Speaker 2: and we need more evidence because we just don't have enough.

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Speaker 2: And those arguments include the value of children being able

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Speaker 2: to communicate with their parents. Like I've spoken to so

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Speaker 2: many parents who have said, my child has anxiety or

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Speaker 2: my child has specific health needs, and I want them

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Speaker 2: to be able to contact me. Now, I know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people say, we'll just go to the office,

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Speaker 2: and I'm kind of generally in agreement with that, but

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Speaker 2: I also understand that in some circumstances, your child being

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Speaker 2: able to access you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but having a few children with access to It

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Speaker 3: is totally different to having a classroom.

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Speaker 2: But if you have a few children who have access

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Speaker 2: to it, then all the other students and many parents

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Speaker 2: will get upset about it. So that's a challenge. Another

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Speaker 2: argument against a smartphone ban is that like kids do

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Speaker 2: need to learn how to manage themselves in a world

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Speaker 2: full of distractions, because if they go home and they've

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Speaker 2: got access to absolutely everything all the time, the benefit

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Speaker 2: does happen at school, but.

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Speaker 3: There's enough distraction at school without a phone. I was

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Speaker 3: completely distracted as a high school student.

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Speaker 2: So was I how cute?

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Speaker 3: My HPA teacher.

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Speaker 2: Was, Oh gosh, I can't wie. You just said that.

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Speaker 2: That's really like in twenty twenty three, that's a creepy

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Speaker 2: thing to say. Oh mind you, it was you saying

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Speaker 2: that about him, not him saying that about you. So

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Speaker 2: there's the cost to the school, to the and we

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Speaker 2: know that kids are going to find a way around it,

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Speaker 2: like they just do. They find a way around it.

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Speaker 2: My biggest challenge philosophically is that a ban goes against

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Speaker 2: everything that I believe about what we should and shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be doing, and yet in this particular context, I think

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Speaker 2: that it makes sense. The last point that I'd make

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Speaker 2: is that the research evidence still isn't that strong. We

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Speaker 2: still really lack good evidence around this, but the evidence

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Speaker 2: is building, and I think that it's strong enough that

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Speaker 2: we should do it, and that the research evidence at

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Speaker 2: the moment is kind of circular. Like nobody's done an

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Speaker 2: experiment where they've gone into a handful of schools and said, guys,

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Speaker 2: we're going to ban phones in this school as part

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Speaker 2: of an experiment, but we're going to let the schools

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Speaker 2: next door, like those five schools over there, they're going

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Speaker 2: to keep their phones, and we're going to compare their

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Speaker 2: results with your results and see what happens with and

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Speaker 2: without phones at school. If we could run some experiments

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Speaker 2: like that, we'd get an answer pretty quickly about what's

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Speaker 2: going on. We'd find out academically, socially, physically, all the

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Speaker 2: ways whether it's a good or a bad thing. I

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Speaker 2: overall though, I think it's good and I think they

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Speaker 2: should be banned. And you know why. Ultimately, it's got

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with all the research evidence. It's just

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Speaker 2: personal preference. And I'll tell you when we went on

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Speaker 2: our crewise and we were away for a couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks we had no Wi Fi. I basically forgot that

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Speaker 2: I had a phone.

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Speaker 3: How good was that?

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Speaker 2: And it was so good? There was no distraction. There

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Speaker 2: was no news articles to read, no social media to

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Speaker 2: look at. There was no way for us to communicate

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Speaker 2: with anybody at all about anything. We were just in

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Speaker 2: the moment when we came home. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you've noticed. Have you noticed my screen usage since we've

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Speaker 2: gotten home? Have you noticed the way I've been interacting

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Speaker 2: with a screen, Well, since you haven't been here, Oh,

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Speaker 2: come on, I've been around a fair bit. I know

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Speaker 2: I've traveled a lot for work, But my interaction with

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Speaker 2: screens other than when I'm working.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, well, I think I at about at seven o'clock

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Speaker 3: at night. So I actually don't know what your screen

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Speaker 3: usage is. Well, actually I am going to dub you

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Speaker 3: in I wake up because you were watching a screen

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Speaker 3: in our bed.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm still glad to watch some TV now.

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Speaker 3: And then, well, you just asked me I did notice.

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Speaker 2: Can't believe you dub me in. But I've not been

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Speaker 2: on social media. I haven't been reading the news sites.

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Speaker 2: I've been really present and available, and I've been keeping

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Speaker 2: my phone away and it's made a huge difference, and that,

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Speaker 2: more than anything, is why I think that kids don't

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Speaker 2: need them, especially at school. So join the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Well, I might not be an expert, but I already

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Speaker 3: had that opinion.

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Speaker 2: Jumped over to our Facebook page and let us know

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Speaker 2: what you think. We're asking the question on the Facebook page.

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Speaker 2: We would love to get your idea based on the evidence,

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Speaker 2: based on your experience, based on your overall situation. Should

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Speaker 2: we or shouldn't we? Am I right? Is Beck right?

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Speaker 2: Is Madonna right? Is Michelle right? And we make it's

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Speaker 2: Kylie right? Is missus? Happy family is right? Jump over

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Speaker 2: and let us know your thoughts on this because it

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Speaker 2: is a complicated and nuanced issue. I've got some really

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Speaker 2: smart friends who are aware of the research evidence, and

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Speaker 2: their opinions are not nearly as strong as mine on this.

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Speaker 2: They actually disagree with me, and I think that it's

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Speaker 2: a fascinating conversation. Dr Justin Filson's Happy Families on Facebook

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Speaker 2: to join the discussion. The Happy Family's podcast is produced

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Speaker 2: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 2: executive producer. And if you'd like more information about making

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Speaker 2: your family happier visitors at happy Families dot com, dot

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Speaker 2: a