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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Dahlias.

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Speaker 2: Oh now it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the nineteenth of February. I'm Zara Seidler.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy Fitzsimon's.

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Speaker 3: Earlier this week, media outlets reported that women and children

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Speaker 3: connected to ISIS had attempted to flee a detention camp

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Speaker 3: and return to Australia. It's reignited a national conversation about

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Speaker 3: the role of the government in this specific scenario and

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Speaker 3: whether or not these citizens should be allowed to return

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Speaker 3: to Australia. In today's podcast, we're going to explain what

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Speaker 3: we know about the journey of these people, what the

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Speaker 3: arguments for and against are, and what could come next.

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Speaker 1: Zora.

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Speaker 2: When I saw this story earlier this week, I was

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Speaker 2: confused because I swear a similar thing had happened a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago. It's quite a complex story, so

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Speaker 2: I think we should by I'm sure many of our

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Speaker 2: listeners are very familiar with ISIS. They are in the

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Speaker 2: news a lot. They are a terrorist organization.

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Speaker 1: But I'd say less so than they used to make.

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Speaker 2: Yes, definitely yes, But I think we should start by

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Speaker 2: explaining what that group is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So ISIS is a group that Australia is

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Speaker 3: listed as a terrorist organization since two thousand and five.

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Speaker 3: From twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen, they controlled roughly a

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Speaker 3: third of Syria and they formed what they called a caliphate,

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Speaker 3: which is essentially a self declared state governed under a

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Speaker 3: fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic law. And it's during that time

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Speaker 3: that we heard about a number of attacks that were

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Speaker 3: carried out in the name of ISIS. You know, here

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Speaker 3: in Australia we had the Link Cafe siege that was

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Speaker 3: done in the name of ISIS.

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Speaker 1: And so during that during that.

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Speaker 3: Peak, I guess of their power, there were thousands and

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Speaker 3: thousands of citizens from countries around the world who decided

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Speaker 3: to leave their home countries to go and fight with

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Speaker 3: ISIS to establish this caliphate.

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Speaker 1: And this group.

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Speaker 3: Actually included quite a few Australians. And so there were

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Speaker 3: Australians who left this country to go over to Syria

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Speaker 3: and fight, and they were trained and recruited. Many of

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Speaker 3: those people we know have since died, but we're talking

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Speaker 3: about it today because of the families of those people.

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Speaker 2: And just to go back you were just talking about

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Speaker 2: the Link siege, and you said before that they're probably

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Speaker 2: less powerful now than they were about ten years ago.

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Speaker 2: I would say about ten years ago there were a

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Speaker 2: string of terrorist attacks and they seemed to just keep happening,

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Speaker 2: and it was a really terrifying time. But now, like

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Speaker 2: you said, they are definitely less powerful, right, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, on paper, they are definitely less powerful. So i

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Speaker 3: just lost all of its.

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Speaker 1: Land by twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 3: So when we talk about their physical presence, they had

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Speaker 3: this land in Syria and they no longer operate that land.

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Speaker 3: But it should be said that, for example, the Bundai

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Speaker 3: terrorist attack, those suspects had ISIS flags in their bags,

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Speaker 3: and so, you know, while the kind of really constant

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Speaker 3: occurrences of terrorist attacks done in the name of ISIS

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Speaker 3: have certainly diminished, there is still this ideological binding and

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Speaker 3: the power that.

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Speaker 1: This group has.

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Speaker 3: But as I said, the majority of that land was

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Speaker 3: lost by twenty nineteen, and when that happened, many of

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Speaker 3: isis's fighters and their families were put into detention camps.

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Speaker 3: So those detention camps were in Syria, Libya, and Iraq.

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Speaker 3: And just an interesting thing that I saw was that

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Speaker 3: a lot of these people were actually put in detention

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Speaker 3: centers with the victims of who they had been fighting.

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Speaker 3: It's really interesting and says a lot about some of

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Speaker 3: the tensions.

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Speaker 1: That exist there. But there were dozens and dozens of

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Speaker 1: these sorts.

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Speaker 3: Of camps, and as we said earlier, there had been

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Speaker 3: Australian citizens who had gone over to travel, and so

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Speaker 3: in Veria we have Australians in those detention camps. Some

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Speaker 3: were fighters, but then others were actually the wives and

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Speaker 3: partners of those who had traveled to join them. And

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Speaker 3: then there were the children who had either again traveled

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Speaker 3: to be with their parents or had been born during

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Speaker 3: the time where these people had been fighting for ISIS.

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Speaker 3: And so we have a situation where there have been

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Speaker 3: some Australian children who have been born in these detention

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Speaker 3: centers or camps and have never been to Australia, but

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Speaker 3: actually are Australian citizens, Okay.

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Speaker 2: And so then to bring it to the news this week, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is the wives and children of these ices fighters

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Speaker 2: who are also Australian citizens that we are talking about

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Speaker 2: with the news this week.

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Speaker 1: Correct. So multiple outlets reported that a group of thirty

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Speaker 1: four Australian women and children attempted to leave a detention

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Speaker 1: camp called Al Roge in northeastern Syria.

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Speaker 3: This wee. So they've been held there for seven years

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Speaker 3: and as we understand it, they got around fifty kilometers

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Speaker 3: into their journey towards Damascus, the capital of Syria, before

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Speaker 3: they were turned around by Syrian authorities. A camp official

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Speaker 3: told the Citny Morning Herald that the group's departure had

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Speaker 3: been postponed because of something like Syrian government permissions, and

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Speaker 3: therefore they weren't successful in actually getting out. But it

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Speaker 3: has reignited this discussion of should they get out, what

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Speaker 3: happens then should they be allowed to return to Australia.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so these are Australian women and children who were

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Speaker 2: trying to leave a Syrian detention camp where they have

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Speaker 2: been for a number of years. But my understanding from

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Speaker 2: the news this week is that the Australian government said

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Speaker 2: we will not help you leave these camps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: So the federal government has said that they are not

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Speaker 3: involved in the attempted return. We had Prime Minister Anthony

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Speaker 3: Alberanezi say we have a very firm view that we

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Speaker 3: won't be providing assistance or repatriation. He added that these

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Speaker 3: people were people who went overseas supporting ISIS, and he

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Speaker 3: argues therefore that they should not be allowed to return home,

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Speaker 3: and secondly that the government should not have to play

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Speaker 3: a role in getting these people home.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to understand more the other side of

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Speaker 2: that argument. But first here is a quick message from

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Speaker 2: today's sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Okay Zara.

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Speaker 2: So we just heard the perspective of Prime Minister Anthony

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Speaker 2: Aberzi who said that the Australian government will not be

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Speaker 2: assisting in the return of these Australian women and children

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Speaker 2: who are in their camp. Are there any opinions from

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Speaker 2: other politicians who believe that they should be allowed back in.

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Speaker 3: I want to just let me go back one step,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, nothing's as neat as there being two sides.

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Speaker 3: But I want to just talk you through some of

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Speaker 3: the arguments for and against this, because yes, Anthony Abernezi

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Speaker 3: is one of the people who has said that he

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Speaker 3: doesn't think that they should be helped by the Australian government.

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Speaker 3: He said something like if you make your bed, you

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Speaker 3: lie in it. So he's saying they chose to go

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Speaker 3: over there and thus they are not allowed to come.

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Speaker 2: Back though the children didn't well.

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Speaker 3: I mean, okay, I'll skip to the other side of

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Speaker 3: the opinion, which says that and this is something that's

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Speaker 3: particularly been echoed by human rights groups who say there

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Speaker 3: have been examples of family violence and coercion where these

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Speaker 3: women were not using free will when they went over

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Speaker 3: to Syria, that perhaps there could have been instances where

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Speaker 3: they were forced by their partners to travel over, and

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Speaker 3: that they should then, as a kind of humanitarian case,

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Speaker 3: be able to return and should not be blamed for

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Speaker 3: the decisions of their partners, many of whom have since died.

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Speaker 3: Another reason why people think that these people should be

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Speaker 3: allowed to return is that children should not bear responsibility

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Speaker 3: for their parents' choices. As we just said that some

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Speaker 3: of these children were born in detention. If you are

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Speaker 3: a three, four five year old, the argument is that

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Speaker 3: you should not be held responsible for what your father,

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Speaker 3: who has since died, did, or your mother for that matter.

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Speaker 3: There have also been arguments that it is kind of

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Speaker 3: legal imperative for the Australian government to intervene, but from

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Speaker 3: both of the major parties we have heard no, we

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Speaker 3: are not going to intervene. We are not going to

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Speaker 3: help these people cannot be brought back, and most of

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Speaker 3: the underpinnings of that argument is safety, that that is

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Speaker 3: a national security threat to Australia.

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Speaker 2: Because they could have been radicalized within those camps.

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Speaker 1: Or during their time in Syria.

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Speaker 3: Like these people were, some of them married to ISIS fighters,

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Speaker 3: Perhaps they were radicalized even before they left. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to go into individual cases, but there

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Speaker 3: is an argument to be made about the level of

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Speaker 3: radicalization that some of these people might have had.

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Speaker 2: Is there any precedent for the Australian government helping people

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Speaker 2: like this, people like the wives of ISIS fighters, allowing

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Speaker 2: them back into Australia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is really challenging because they're okay. So there

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Speaker 3: are two cases where women and children from these ISIS

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Speaker 3: camps have been brought back to Australia. However, the role

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Speaker 3: of the government and the role that the government played

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Speaker 3: in bringing them home hasn't been entirely clear. So there

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Speaker 3: are two examples, one under Scott Morrison and one under

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Speaker 3: Anthony Albanezi. So under Scott Morrison in twenty nineteen eight,

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Speaker 3: Australian children from Syria were assisted to leave a camp

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Speaker 3: and return back to Australia. I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: remember this. There was a Four Corners episode about it

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Speaker 3: of a grandmother going to get her grandchildren back. These

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Speaker 3: were the children of Colored Sharoof and Tara Nettleton. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if listeners will be familiar with Colored Sharoof,

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Speaker 3: but his children were pictured holding a beheaded or a

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Speaker 3: severed head in one photograph, and he was often deemed

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Speaker 3: kind of the worst of Australia's exports to Isis. So

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Speaker 3: under the Morrison gu government, the children were brought home

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Speaker 3: by their grandmother. We don't know what role Scott Morrison's

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Speaker 3: government actually played in getting them out, whether they assisted

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Speaker 3: or whether they were instrumental in bringing them home. And

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Speaker 3: then in twenty twenty two, under Anthony Alberenzi, four Australian

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Speaker 3: women and their thirteen children returned to Australia. At the time,

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Speaker 3: Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke said, if any of those

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Speaker 3: people find their own way to return, our security agencies

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Speaker 3: are satisfied that they are prepared and will be able

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Speaker 3: to act in interests of community safety. So he's kind

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Speaker 3: of using language there that suggests that the Albanese government

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Speaker 3: didn't repatriate them, but that they won't stop them when

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Speaker 3: they get to Australia.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense, Yes, that doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 3: It's a bit finicky because it's happened and then governments

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Speaker 3: have backtracked and said no, no, no, we didn't actually

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Speaker 3: play a role in this, we just didn't stop.

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Speaker 2: It, right, And so basically it's up to individual governments

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Speaker 2: as opposed to there being one law that deals with this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's been tested in a court. So I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you've heard of a charity called Save

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Speaker 3: the Children. Yes, yes, So they took the federal government,

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Speaker 3: the Albanese government to court and said that the Home

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Speaker 3: Affairs Minster needed to repatriate Australian women and children. Repatriate

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Speaker 3: just means bring home. And ultimately they lost this case

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Speaker 3: because the court found Australia does not have a legal

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Speaker 3: obligation to repatriate the women and children because it does

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Speaker 3: not control the circumstances of their detention. So that's what

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Speaker 3: the court says. And so yeah, you're right, like there

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Speaker 3: can be a decision to more actively or more passively help,

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Speaker 3: but the courts have found that it is not a

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Speaker 3: requirement per se.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so where does this leave us? The brides and

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Speaker 2: children will just stay in the Syrian camp.

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Speaker 3: Well, we understand that there is an effort for the

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Speaker 3: people who at the beginning of the week tried to flee,

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Speaker 3: that they might do it again later this week. There's

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Speaker 3: not been any confirmation, so I'll have to wait and

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Speaker 3: see what happens there.

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Speaker 1: But it does look like.

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Speaker 3: Neither Labor nor the Coalition are particularly keen to play

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Speaker 3: any role in getting these people out of that Syrian

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Speaker 3: detention camp, and so it is likely that unless there

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Speaker 3: is something that happens outside of the government realm, these

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Speaker 3: people will remain in these detention camps and not back

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Speaker 3: in Australia.

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Speaker 2: A very complicated case. Zara, thank you for taking us

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Speaker 2: through that. Thank you, Billy, and thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for listening to this episode of The Daily os. We'll

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Speaker 2: be back this afternoon with your evening headlines, but until then,

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Speaker 2: we hope you have a lovely day. My name is

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Speaker 2: Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda bunjelung Kalkutin woman

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Speaker 2: from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast

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Speaker 2: is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and

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Speaker 2: pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

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Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 2: both past and present,