Speaker 1: If my advice was to anyone, it would be work
Speaker 1: out kind of the things that are burning you out.
Speaker 1: Because for us, the Facebook grip was burning us out,
Speaker 1: and we suddenly had all this extra energy to pour
Speaker 1: into really productive forms of social media that could actually
Speaker 1: grow our business. And for so long we were just
Speaker 1: juggling so many things that we kind of couldn't We
Speaker 1: couldn't see that, we didn't have that clarity to say,
Speaker 1: we will have far more energy and kind of far
Speaker 1: better ideas if we delete this thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it gave us like a zest for the
Speaker 2: podcast back, I think because we had time to relax
Speaker 2: and time to switch off. And I know it sounds hyperbolic,
Speaker 2: but I truly don't think Zara and I had the
Speaker 2: ability to switch off for a year.
Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics
Speaker 3: used by the world's most successful people to get so
Speaker 3: much out of their day. I'm your host, Doctor Aman.
Speaker 3: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,
Speaker 3: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. Now,
Speaker 3: before we get into today's episode, just a few things
Speaker 3: from me. Something I am playing around with for the
Speaker 3: mini Tuesday episode that I release is responding to listener questions.
Speaker 3: So if you've got a question about how you approach
Speaker 3: work or about productivity, managing time, being happier and healthier
Speaker 3: at work, I would love to hear from you and
Speaker 3: maybe help you out with a hopefully intelligent answer to
Speaker 3: your question.
Speaker 4: So, if you've got something on your mind, I'd love
Speaker 4: you to share it with me.
Speaker 3: I am at Amantha at inventium dot com dot au
Speaker 3: and my email address is always in the show notes
Speaker 3: as well. Our second if you are enjoying How I Work,
Speaker 3: or maybe this is the first episode that you've listened to,
Speaker 3: and so if you get something out of this episode,
Speaker 3: I would love it if you can spread the word
Speaker 3: share it with someone else that.
Speaker 4: You think could benefit from it.
Speaker 3: And finally, I love getting feed back from listeners. It's
Speaker 3: super easy and quick to leave a review in Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 3: You can do a star rating and be amongst the
Speaker 3: four hundred. Also other people that have done that, or
Speaker 3: even write some words or even email me your feedback.
Speaker 3: That is also super lovely to receive. Okay, let's get
Speaker 3: on with this episode. My guests on today's show, Michelle
Speaker 3: Andrews and Zara McDonald. Michelle and Zara and Melbourne based
Speaker 3: journalists and broadcasters. And they are only twenty six years old,
Speaker 3: which will blow your mind when you hear about what
Speaker 3: they have achieved. So they met when they were working
Speaker 3: as writers for Mumma Mia and in March twenty eighteen
Speaker 3: they launched Australia's top pop culture podcast, which is called Shameless,
Speaker 3: which they say is for smart women who like dumb stuff.
Speaker 3: They now run Shameless Media and are the producers of
Speaker 3: three other very popular podcasts. So Shameless has been downloaded
Speaker 3: over ten million times. That is a lot in the
Speaker 3: world of podcasts, and Shameless was crowned Australia's most Popular
Speaker 3: Podcast of twenty nineteen at the Australian Podcast Awards. Michelle
Speaker 3: and Zara and their podcast have been written about in
Speaker 3: The New York Times, The Guardian, The Age and Murray Claire, among.
Speaker 4: A whole bunch of other places.
Speaker 3: So I was so excited to have Michelle and Zara
Speaker 3: on the show. I've followed their work for a while
Speaker 3: and what they have achieved.
Speaker 2: Is just so impressive.
Speaker 3: So in this episode we spend a lot of time
Speaker 3: going behind the scenes of making one of Australia's most
Speaker 3: popular and downloaded podcasts, Shameless. So we talk about where
Speaker 3: they get their inspiration from, how they prepare for interviews,
Speaker 3: how they keep their band afresh, all sorts of things,
Speaker 3: and then we get into things like how they make
Speaker 3: decisions around the podcast and their business, and how they
Speaker 3: deal with negative feedback, because if your podcast has been
Speaker 3: downloaded over ten million times, you've probably gotten a lot
Speaker 3: of negative feedback as well as positive. So I just
Speaker 3: I love this chat. So on that note, let's go
Speaker 3: to Michelle and Zara to hear about how they work.
Speaker 4: Michelle Zara, welcome to How I Work.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5: We're so flattered to be here.
Speaker 3: I'm very excited to have you both on the show.
Speaker 3: And this is also quite novel for me. Like interviewing
Speaker 3: two people at the one time.
Speaker 2: It can be tricky. Zara, We're gonna have to like
Speaker 2: figure out who speaks when. It'll be interesting. We're just
Speaker 2: going to jump in.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 4: Oh awesome. I'm loving the challenge.
Speaker 2: So where I want to start.
Speaker 3: You guys produce and star in and create and pretty
Speaker 3: much do everything for one of the most downloaded podcasts
Speaker 3: in Australia, which is Shameless, And I just want to
Speaker 3: start by, particularly for listeners that are unfamiliar with Shame
Speaker 3: and all the content that you guys produce. Can you
Speaker 3: just kind of give an overview of, like what is
Speaker 3: all the content.
Speaker 4: That you are putting out into the world every week? Okay?
Speaker 2: So Shameless is a podcast for smart people who love
Speaker 2: dumb stuff. So it's a pop culture podcast and celebrity
Speaker 2: podcast basically covering the issues that women mostly care about
Speaker 2: but maybe haven't had an outlet to discuss or think
Speaker 2: about in a way that's intelligent and meaningful and thoughtful.
Speaker 2: So we do a Monday episode that is kind of
Speaker 2: a rap in the week that was in pop culture.
Speaker 2: We do a Thursday episode that is always an interview
Speaker 2: with an influential person. Some Saturdays we do a book
Speaker 2: club episode, which is like a roundtable discussion about a
Speaker 2: book that we select for that month. So next month's
Speaker 2: book is The Yield by Tara June Winch. We have
Speaker 2: a newsletter that we drop every single Friday, and that
Speaker 2: is a weekly recommendations newsletter, So it has a column
Speaker 2: from someone in the show Shameless team or one of
Speaker 2: our listeners that we've collaborated with and it then has
Speaker 2: a read, watch listen recommendation. It also has a shameless
Speaker 2: recipe that we've worked with a shameless chef on Jess Newan, Zora,
Speaker 2: am I'm missing anything. We also do live shows, We
Speaker 2: make other podcasts. We have a podcast series with Bumble
Speaker 2: called Love Etc. That we absolutely love creating. And yeah,
Speaker 2: we do stuff on social media, create video content. We
Speaker 2: do a video series every fortnight called Shamelessly Stupid, which
Speaker 2: is basically like a silly, frivolous game show with Australian
Speaker 2: best friends that are well known. Zora, If I missed anything.
Speaker 5: I don't think so. Maybe just the book that we've
Speaker 5: pushed out.
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, we've written a book together.
Speaker 3: Of course, we also read a book together that side project. Yeah,
Speaker 3: like you know books right themselves and all that, don't they?
Speaker 3: Oh wow, that is so much content. I want to
Speaker 3: know where are you getting your ideas from in terms
Speaker 3: of what to put out into the world every week.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting you ask, because I think Michelle is
Speaker 1: much better at ideas than I am. But I think
Speaker 1: when it comes to both of us looking for ideas,
Speaker 1: we're looking in our group chats with our girlfriends. We're
Speaker 1: talking to our sisters, who are hugely influential with us
Speaker 1: when it comes to kind of knowing what people are
Speaker 1: interested in, particularly young women between the ages of about
Speaker 1: twenty and thirty. So we're looking around a lot, we're
Speaker 1: looking sideways a lot. I think we found between us
Speaker 1: that the best ideas that we've created have come from
Speaker 1: conversations that we're just having with our girlfriends where we're
Speaker 1: realizing that, you know what, people aren't really having this
Speaker 1: conversation elsewhere, and maybe we've got a platform to be
Speaker 1: able to have it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And I think it's been massive for
Speaker 2: us to actually physically write down those ideas, right, Like
Speaker 2: Zara and I constantly trying to create content every week
Speaker 2: and constantly trying to hit the nail on the head
Speaker 2: with what we've talking about. So we are constantly flinging
Speaker 2: each other links to news articles or to tweets that
Speaker 2: we find interesting, or to memes on Instagram or to
Speaker 2: screenshots with our best friends. So finding the ideas is
Speaker 2: probably the trickiest part of our job because we have
Speaker 2: to be so selective with what we're talking about, not
Speaker 2: just because we want the content to be really relevant
Speaker 2: to our audience, but also as the podcasting industry has
Speaker 2: grown pretty exponentially over the last twelve months. In particular,
Speaker 2: we want to be covering content that not everyone else
Speaker 2: is talking about as well, Like we want to be
Speaker 2: able to have a fresh edge that the podcasts who
Speaker 2: might have similar audiences to ours. We don't want the
Speaker 2: listener to be fed the same kind of segment again
Speaker 2: and again. So that's presented a new challenge, but it's
Speaker 2: been one that we've really relished because it means we
Speaker 2: kind of get to sharpen our swords a bit and
Speaker 2: kind of think really deeply about what topics and what
Speaker 2: conversations we want to have on the podcast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could imagine that would be very challenging to
Speaker 3: either find unique things to talk about or unique angles
Speaker 3: into something that everyone is talking about. Do you do
Speaker 3: you guys have I don't know, like go to websites
Speaker 3: or blogs or influencers and stuff like that that you
Speaker 3: do find that you're checking on a regular basis for inspiration.
Speaker 1: I mean, before we go and record our week clean
Speaker 1: Monday episode over the Friday, Saturday Sunday, we will be
Speaker 1: scanning everything. And I think the interesting part about our
Speaker 1: podcast is that we cover really lowbrow things and we
Speaker 1: try to cover things that aren't especially stupid too, And
Speaker 1: to be honest, although the podcast is very Australian and
Speaker 1: we cover a lot of local news, we seek a
Speaker 1: lot of inspiration from stuff like the Atlantic, stuff like
Speaker 1: Man Repeller publications. I guess that write really well on
Speaker 1: culture and kind of trends and the zeitgeist, because we
Speaker 1: find that that's what our audience are talking about too.
Speaker 1: And I think, harping back to what Misch was talking
Speaker 1: about before, when we're trying to separate ourselves out from
Speaker 1: what is a really saturated landscape, going overseas and looking
Speaker 1: at kind of getting in brain from overseas can help
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 3: And so on Thursdays you release an interview. And I mean,
Speaker 3: you've had some amazing guests on the show, like ex
Speaker 3: Prime Minister Julia Gillard, And what is your process for
Speaker 3: preparing for interviews?
Speaker 4: And I partly ask so I can steal some of it.
Speaker 2: We actually go away separately from each other and we
Speaker 2: do about two hours of independent research. So often that
Speaker 2: will be reading interviews that person has done with online
Speaker 2: publications or listening to podcast interviews they've done with other podcasts,
Speaker 2: or even to be honest, trolling through their social media
Speaker 2: or reading books that they may have put out, what
Speaker 2: have you. But it's really important that Zara and I
Speaker 2: have that bit where we go away and we actually
Speaker 2: don't spend the entire time in each other's ears saying
Speaker 2: what we think is the most interesting part or what
Speaker 2: we really want to ask them about, because generally it
Speaker 2: means that we go away, we hear all the different things.
Speaker 2: We make sure that we don't listen to the same
Speaker 2: interviews or read the same interviews as each other, so
Speaker 2: there's not a heap of overlapp and then we come
Speaker 2: together and we generally tend to have like a really
Speaker 2: eclectic mix of questions and ideas and thoughts that we
Speaker 2: want to bring to the chat. And I think that's
Speaker 2: so important because Zara and I, although we're very very
Speaker 2: similar in so many ways, I think sometimes the kind
Speaker 2: of content that we lean towards is quite different. Do
Speaker 2: you agree with that, Zara?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Completely.
Speaker 1: I think for any kind of prep we do for
Speaker 1: any podcast, right, whether that is a Thursday episode which
Speaker 1: is our interview episode, or a Monday episode, which is
Speaker 1: kind of our weekly wrap in pop culture. We always
Speaker 1: prep separately and we don't kind of look at each
Speaker 1: other's notes or anything. And it's kind of funny because
Speaker 1: Nish's right, often there are different angles we want to take,
Speaker 1: but very often it's kind of funny that we've both
Speaker 1: pulled out quotes from an article that we've both read
Speaker 1: that we really love, and so that's how we know
Speaker 1: straight away that's something we have to talk about. If
Speaker 1: we're both pulling out the same quote from the same article,
Speaker 1: then clearly we're on the same page here about this idea.
Speaker 2: And do you go.
Speaker 3: Into interviews with kind of like the angle, the angle
Speaker 3: that you're going to use to promote it with, or
Speaker 3: is it much more kind of exploratory and just being
Speaker 3: open to whatever. The most interesting thing that emerges is.
Speaker 2: It's definitely more exploratory. We don't go in with an
Speaker 2: idea of what we're going to sell it on, or
Speaker 2: like the pull out quote that we're going to put
Speaker 2: at the very beginning of the episode to entice people in.
Speaker 2: I think generally we try to make our questions chronological
Speaker 2: as much as we can, like we want to explore
Speaker 2: a person's life, and we always begin our chats with
Speaker 2: childhood and kind of branch out from there. But we
Speaker 2: kind of let the interview, we take the chat wherever
Speaker 2: they want to go. Like there have been interviews we've
Speaker 2: done where we've had our full list of questions, and
Speaker 2: Zara and I are meticulous preparers for interviews, like we
Speaker 2: never go in. It baffles me how some people can
Speaker 2: do interviews without writing questions down. We always go in
Speaker 2: with a full list and like the order of which
Speaker 2: we want to ask them. But there have been interviews
Speaker 2: where we've kind of scrapped the last half of the
Speaker 2: middle section of questions entirely because the interviewee has taken
Speaker 2: the podcast episode in a completely new direction. And I
Speaker 2: really like, genuinely love when that happens because I think
Speaker 2: it shows that they're speaking authentically and they clearly want
Speaker 2: to get something off their chest. And I think those
Speaker 2: podcast interviews tend to be the best because you know
Speaker 2: that someone speaking with Canada and honesty.
Speaker 3: It's interesting that you say that I can definitely relate.
Speaker 3: I'm quite meticulous in how I prepare for interviews. I
Speaker 3: have reduced the time it takes me from got like,
Speaker 3: you know, six or seven hours I was doing in
Speaker 3: the early days two years ago and now I kind of,
Speaker 3: you know, can prep in about an hour or two,
Speaker 3: depending on how much I know about the guest. But
Speaker 3: I had I had this really interesting piece of advice
Speaker 3: from someone I had on the show a few months ago,
Speaker 3: this woman Harris Faulkner, who's a Fox News anchor over
Speaker 3: in America, and she said she'll only go into interviews
Speaker 3: with two or three questions. And she's really deliberate about
Speaker 3: that because she finds if she goes in with a
Speaker 3: whole stack of questions, then she's less open to what
Speaker 3: emerges and she doesn't listen as well. I thought, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: I'm not about to do that, But I found that
Speaker 3: really interesting.
Speaker 5: It's a real skill, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I think interviewing everybody has their own way of doing it.
Speaker 1: I think for miss and I, we don't go in missions, right,
Speaker 1: We don't go in with an angle or how we know,
Speaker 1: you know, how we're going to sell it later.
Speaker 5: But we do go in knowing the kind of story.
Speaker 1: That this episode will tell, because we often organize each
Speaker 1: week or each month with a very different kind of
Speaker 1: set of stories that we can tell. So are making
Speaker 1: sure we're platforming as many different voices as we can.
Speaker 1: So that's why we go in with such meticulous prep.
Speaker 1: That said, so very often you will kind of scrap
Speaker 1: three questions in a row because you're like this just
Speaker 1: doesn't matter or they've already covered that, and you kind
Speaker 1: of We're really flexible with how the chat flows. But
Speaker 1: I guess having a structure there that you can see
Speaker 1: kind of gives the interview bones, because I really think
Speaker 1: a lot of interviews need bones, and I think, to
Speaker 1: be honest, what we're seeing with podcasting at the moment,
Speaker 1: with a completely like we say, saturated market and podcasts everywhere,
Speaker 1: is that a lot of interviews kind of you can't
Speaker 1: see those bones and you kind of don't know where
Speaker 1: it's going. And as a listener, I don't like that experience.
Speaker 1: I don't like not knowing where it's going, or thinking
Speaker 1: perhaps that the interviewer doesn't know where the interviews going.
Speaker 1: So because I'm that kind of listener, I want to
Speaker 1: be that kind of interviewer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the most important skills for
Speaker 2: us to hone has been kind of identifying where the
Speaker 2: knots are, and I mean the knots is in like
Speaker 2: you might ask someone a question, they might give you
Speaker 2: this knot of something and then completely move on. But
Speaker 2: being able to identify that and then tease that out
Speaker 2: for the next question, it can sometimes just lead you
Speaker 2: down a really great path of conversation that maybe they
Speaker 2: even didn't intend on having originally. But that's been huge
Speaker 2: for us. I think when we were perhaps more immature
Speaker 2: or a little bit younger as journalists, we didn't have
Speaker 2: that skill so much. We did fall back on the
Speaker 2: questions we had pre prepped. But I think I'm happy
Speaker 2: with where we are now as interviewers and that we
Speaker 2: can identify those spots more and really tunnel down them.
Speaker 3: I want to move on to the Monday episode, and
Speaker 3: for those that haven't listened to a Monday episode of Shameless,
Speaker 3: can you just, in a nutshell describe what is happening
Speaker 3: in that episode?
Speaker 5: Absolutely?
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: What we usually do is Mission now will kind of look, o,
Speaker 1: you know, at the week that kind of was, and
Speaker 1: we'll grab usually two big stories from the pop culture
Speaker 1: news cycle, and we can be a little bit flexible
Speaker 1: on what kind of constitutes a pop culture story. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it might be about you know, your big celebrity Beyonce,
Speaker 1: or so maybe Sometimes it might be a social media
Speaker 1: trend on Instagram this week. Gosh, I was just about
Speaker 1: to say, this is what we did this week, mes,
Speaker 1: but I've already forgotten.
Speaker 5: That's how much stuff is going on.
Speaker 1: It might be you know, a video clip we covered
Speaker 1: and what we what we intend to do with that
Speaker 1: episode is yes, talk about the top line points that
Speaker 1: are going on in the celebrity and pop culture new cycle,
Speaker 1: but also kind of tease it out to.
Speaker 5: Be like, well, what what does this story say about us?
Speaker 1: Like why are we so interested? What does it say
Speaker 1: about feminism? What does it say about culture? I think
Speaker 1: for so long and the reason that we started Shameless
Speaker 1: is that women have been shamed into thinking that their
Speaker 1: interests are dumb and stupid, that if they watch Keeping
Speaker 1: Up with the Kardashians, they must only have half a brain.
Speaker 1: And I just fundamentally reject that idea. I think we
Speaker 1: can learn so much from what people are interested in
Speaker 1: when it comes to celebrity and pop culture. I think
Speaker 1: it says so much about who we are as people
Speaker 1: and what it says about the zeitgeist and mission. And
Speaker 1: I have always joked that, like, you know, stereotypically, men
Speaker 1: can watch other men tackling each other and running around
Speaker 1: at oval, you know, chasing a leather ball, and we
Speaker 1: don't consider that stupid, but we consider watching a reality
Speaker 1: TV show quite stupid, which can tell us a lot
Speaker 1: more about the world in my opinion. So the Monday episode,
Speaker 1: I guess the intention of it is to talk about
Speaker 1: things in a way pop culture and celebrity in a
Speaker 1: way that's not stupid, and kind of in a way
Speaker 1: that allows and empowers our listeners to think really, really,
Speaker 1: really critically about the stuff they're consuming in the news.
Speaker 4: I think that's great.
Speaker 3: And for the record, I'm like, I'm a US Bachelor addict.
Speaker 4: Weah, I know, I'm dying.
Speaker 3: I mean, like, you know, really, isn't the worst thing
Speaker 3: about COVID that they've gone out of production.
Speaker 2: It's devastating a joke, Yes, the black hole of reality
Speaker 2: TV content content, in fact, any entertainment content. We're going
Speaker 2: to really feel it next year. As you said, it's
Speaker 2: far from being the worst thing about this pandemic, but
Speaker 2: we're going to be like reality TV deprived in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, we are. It's going to be as
Speaker 4: depressing a year as this one.
Speaker 3: Something I'm curious about and this is I mean, I
Speaker 3: feel like like you'd have a lot of listeners that
Speaker 3: are so curious to see how the sausage is made.
Speaker 3: But I also asked this again canmpletely selfishly because I'm
Speaker 3: in pre production for a new podcast which is completely
Speaker 3: different to.
Speaker 4: How I work.
Speaker 3: So I'm like about one year out of my marriage
Speaker 3: and I'm dating again, and I'm in my early forties,
Speaker 3: and it's this whole other world where I.
Speaker 4: Didn't think that I'd be dating again in my lifetime.
Speaker 3: So together with my closest girlfriend Monique, where we're starting
Speaker 3: this podcast about dating, I got incredible, incredible I hope
Speaker 3: it will be. So just going quite kind of like
Speaker 3: deep in in doing interviews at the moment, and something
Speaker 3: that we're trying to figure out is what is our
Speaker 3: tone of voice? How much do we script when you know,
Speaker 3: essentially there's there's sections that are simply banter between Monique
Speaker 3: and myself as distinct from guest interviews. And I want
Speaker 3: to know what would we see going on behind the
Speaker 3: scenes for you guys for the recording of the Monday episode,
Speaker 3: Like how much is scripted? How much do you discuss beforehand?
Speaker 3: You know, something I've become aware about is Monique and
Speaker 3: I talk every day anyway as girlfriends. But if we
Speaker 3: talk about something on the phone and then we sit
Speaker 3: down and record it, it's like it's not as funny
Speaker 3: as it was we talked about it on the phone.
Speaker 4: So tell me how does that work for you guys?
Speaker 2: Okay, So we have some really strict rules. We prep
Speaker 2: completely separately, so we decide on the topics that we
Speaker 2: want to discuss. Obviously, it'll always be a phone call
Speaker 2: or a video chat where we pin down exactly what
Speaker 2: story we want to do for the first segment, the
Speaker 2: five really quick sugary stories we want to cover in
Speaker 2: the Quick and dirty, which is our middle segment, which
Speaker 2: is basically just a rundown of the top headlines that week,
Speaker 2: and then the final segment as well. So we decide
Speaker 2: on the segments, but we have a really strict rule
Speaker 2: with each other that we're not allowed to say anything
Speaker 2: on them when we're on a call. We want all
Speaker 2: of our genuine opinions and our realizations and our i
Speaker 2: don't know, like the machinations of how we worked through
Speaker 2: a certain topic to play out on the podcast. So
Speaker 2: the only things we script in an episode is the
Speaker 2: introduction to eat each section, and we'll just kind of
Speaker 2: put a name next to each one to be like, Okay, Mish,
Speaker 2: you're introing the episode this week, so I'll go and
Speaker 2: write the intro paragraph. But then we just have our
Speaker 2: own dot points for the first segment, and we don't
Speaker 2: look at each other's dot points. We don't see them.
Speaker 2: We have like our Google docs, and then we just
Speaker 2: kind of jump on and flesh out what we think
Speaker 2: and hear each other's thoughts for the very first time.
Speaker 2: And I think that's been so important to us, not
Speaker 2: the entire time we've done the podcast. In fact, for
Speaker 2: the first month we did the podcast, we kind of
Speaker 2: scripted the whole thing, I think, Zarah, but very much
Speaker 2: so from episode three or four onwards. We knew that
Speaker 2: for it to be good content, everything had to be authentic,
Speaker 2: which is such an annoying buzzword, but authentic and genuine,
Speaker 2: and our listeners I hope can pick that up that
Speaker 2: the conversation we're having is something we've never had before,
Speaker 2: and it's not manufactured and it's certainly not recycled from
Speaker 2: a previous phone call, which.
Speaker 1: Means the most annoying thing of all is Mitch will
Speaker 1: be like the funniest thing happened to me this week,
Speaker 1: But I actually cannot tell you until we get onto
Speaker 1: microphone with kids again. If I rehash this story for
Speaker 1: the second time on Mike, it's gonna kind of lose
Speaker 1: its charm. And even still to this day, we'll find
Speaker 1: ourselves kind of wanting to have a conversation about one
Speaker 1: of the segments we've picked, and we'll start and someone
Speaker 1: we just won't stop, and the other person will have
Speaker 1: to be like, shut up.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: I was having that conversation with Monique the other day,
Speaker 3: like Monique stopped telling me the story. We need to
Speaker 3: keep it fresh. Oh yeah, it's very encouraging to hear
Speaker 3: that you guys do that. Do you sort of have
Speaker 3: I guess, almost like rules for how you communicate what's
Speaker 3: on the table, what's off the table, Like you know,
Speaker 3: even something like you know, you guys swear a bit
Speaker 3: on the podcast. Monique and I were talking, well do
Speaker 3: we swear?
Speaker 4: Is that okay?
Speaker 3: Is that you know appropriate for our audience? So do
Speaker 3: you guys have almost like a set of principles or
Speaker 3: guidelines around how you communicate with each other.
Speaker 1: That is a really interesting question, because I don't think
Speaker 1: anybody has asked us that before. I think the thing
Speaker 1: about Miss and I entering podcasting is that we started
Speaker 1: the podcast Gosh two and a half years ago, and
Speaker 1: at that time we were kind of throwing stuff at
Speaker 1: a wall and seeing if it kind of stuck. If
Speaker 1: that's the same, I think, and there wasn't much kind
Speaker 1: of process around it at all. So I think over
Speaker 1: the course of two and a half years, we've fallen
Speaker 1: into a rhythm where we know what's on the table
Speaker 1: and what's off the table, but not because we've had
Speaker 1: a formal conversation about that, but because we fell into
Speaker 1: that rhythm in doing it over two and a half years.
Speaker 5: What do you reckon?
Speaker 2: Miss, Yeah, I think so we've had conversations over the
Speaker 2: years about the swearing thing, and to be honest, it's
Speaker 2: probably more pragmatic than anything that we don't want. I
Speaker 2: don't know. We don't want a mother of three to
Speaker 2: put on the podcast and then have all these f
Speaker 2: bombs drop around her kids, like that's not ideal. But
Speaker 2: we also know that the average mother of three is
Speaker 2: not the average listener of Shameless the average Shameless listener
Speaker 2: is in their twenties and they're either single or in
Speaker 2: a relationship, and the way we spear on the podcast
Speaker 2: is probably how that millennial or gen zea speaks around
Speaker 2: their friends. And for that reason we continue to swear.
Speaker 2: It was a concern in the early days that maybe
Speaker 2: advertisers wouldn't be keen on that, and that it would
Speaker 2: be a struggle to turn this into a business. If
Speaker 2: a podcast is littered with F words, then maybe a
Speaker 2: big sponsor wouldn't want to come on board. Surprisingly, even
Speaker 2: to me, it has never been an issue. Even with
Speaker 2: some of the bigger, more professional brands. We have never
Speaker 2: had someone come to us and say, can you please
Speaker 2: stop saying the F word in every sentence?
Speaker 4: That's encouraging.
Speaker 3: I also was very curious around, you know, how deliberate
Speaker 3: you are around choosing what to share, because you guys
Speaker 3: have shared some really personal stuff, and also I imagine
Speaker 3: you know are also sharing some really personal stuff in
Speaker 3: your book that's coming out on September one. I think
Speaker 3: is the release the space between So Michelle, for example,
Speaker 3: you've spoken very openly about your issues and experiences around
Speaker 3: anxiety and Ozari. You've spoken about your kind of journey
Speaker 3: with Endo and a few other things as well, and
Speaker 3: I want to know, like, how how do you guys
Speaker 3: decide what you share? But then what is getting too
Speaker 3: personal to share?
Speaker 5: It's funny.
Speaker 1: Mission and I are quite different in terms of maybe
Speaker 1: not that different anymore, but maybe initially when we started
Speaker 1: the show, we had pretty different personalities in terms of sharing,
Speaker 1: Like I just was naturally not a huge sharer.
Speaker 5: And we got to a point with.
Speaker 1: The podcast and particularly with this book, where if we're
Speaker 1: going to write a book about our twenties, then we're
Speaker 1: going to have to share parts of our.
Speaker 5: Own experience and in the same vein.
Speaker 1: And if you're going to do a podcast based on
Speaker 1: opinions about things, then people kind of have to know
Speaker 1: where those opinions are coming from. So there has to
Speaker 1: be some element of sharing there so they know who
Speaker 1: you are and where this opinion is coming from. So
Speaker 1: now it's a case of kind of I don't draw
Speaker 1: like a set line, but I would very rarely pull
Speaker 1: the people in my life into.
Speaker 5: Stories, very very rarely.
Speaker 1: It would have to be a very very good story
Speaker 1: and a really important story for Miss and I. I
Speaker 1: think we have these little things like these little special
Speaker 1: moments of our lives that we always kind of keep
Speaker 1: to ourselves.
Speaker 5: But other than that, I actually don't.
Speaker 1: Think there's that much we wouldn't eventually share. I just
Speaker 1: would very rarely share something while I'm in the thick
Speaker 1: of it. I think I always want to be able
Speaker 1: to make sense of a scenario before I'm sharing it
Speaker 1: with our audience, so that there's some sort of wisdom,
Speaker 1: and also that I'm kind of comfortable and at peace
Speaker 1: with what I'm sharing. So I think that would be
Speaker 1: the line that I'm not sharing something right in the
Speaker 1: thick of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's been hugely important for both of us.
Speaker 2: I think there's some stuff in this book that we
Speaker 2: each write about separately that took us years to actually
Speaker 2: process and seek therapy over raw confide in friends and
Speaker 2: family about. And I think that process of being able
Speaker 2: to look back on something with hindsight and being able
Speaker 2: to find lessons from it has been really important for
Speaker 2: us before we then take it publicly. I think sharing
Speaker 2: something with our audience, we do it because we think
Speaker 2: that hopefully it will help someone, that it will make
Speaker 2: a woman feel seen or feel heard, and that's super important.
Speaker 2: But I think at the crux of it, we as
Speaker 2: individual humans need to work through that ourselves, and otherwise
Speaker 2: we can't really tell the story in a helpful way
Speaker 2: to anyone. So it's something that we're constantly evolving on
Speaker 2: and learning more about it. I think when it comes
Speaker 2: to the line of what should and shouldn't be shared
Speaker 2: on the podcast, but as Zarah said, the main one
Speaker 2: for us is if it involves people in our lives
Speaker 2: and it's serious to them, like our siblings, our families,
Speaker 2: our partners, then we do tend to stay clear. If
Speaker 2: it's just about us, then we both feel pretty comfortable.
Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of trust between ourselves
Speaker 2: and our audience now that we know that it's a
Speaker 2: safe space. Whether it's our listener sharing something, or a
Speaker 2: podcast guest on a in conversation episode sharing something, or
Speaker 2: it's us sharing something, I think hopefully everyone feels safe
Speaker 2: to do so and knows that they'll be listened to
Speaker 2: and yeah, be treated with compassion.
Speaker 3: That's nice, And I like that idea of not sharing
Speaker 3: something when you're in the thick of it, because I
Speaker 3: imagine that there would be an impulse to do that
Speaker 3: because it's so like it's so top of mind, but
Speaker 3: then you know, being able to sort of have that
Speaker 3: discipline about going okay, no, I need to reflect.
Speaker 4: On this and draw my own insights. I like that.
Speaker 3: I want to shift gears into social media because this
Speaker 3: is a huge part of how you guys have created
Speaker 3: such a huge community, like so so quickly, really just
Speaker 3: in a couple of years. My consultancy Inventium does a
Speaker 3: lot of work around helping people be more productive and
Speaker 3: manage digital distractions. And a question I will semi regularly
Speaker 3: get asked when we talk about helping people stay off
Speaker 3: social media. You sol ask, well, what if it's.
Speaker 4: Part of my job, Like, how do I stay off it?
Speaker 4: So I want to know.
Speaker 3: How do you manage your social media and do you
Speaker 3: have any boundaries or rules in place around how you
Speaker 3: do that?
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a massive one for us. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we spend a whole bunch of time on social media
Speaker 2: and it has always been that way since we launched
Speaker 2: the podcast, because we know social media is the main
Speaker 2: way that we connect with our audience and our listeners,
Speaker 2: and so to have that relationship with them, which we
Speaker 2: value so much, we have to be present. It was
Speaker 2: a huge decision for Zara and I to actually delete
Speaker 2: our Facebook group to archive it in It might have
Speaker 2: been end of May, or it might have been beginning
Speaker 2: of June this year. That was a group that was
Speaker 2: kind of like the heartland for a time of Shameless,
Speaker 2: that had more than forty thousand listeners in there.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 2: Energized and chaotic and fun and a little bit mad sometimes,
Speaker 2: and we loved it, We really truly did love it.
Speaker 2: But it got to the point where we were two
Speaker 2: women trying to police forty thousand women and that was
Speaker 2: not doable. And of course we might be asleep for
Speaker 2: seven hours a night, but a Facebook group with people
Speaker 2: from all over the world never sleeps. And it got
Speaker 2: to the point where we were so burnt out and
Speaker 2: we were so at a loss as to how to
Speaker 2: keep this Facebook group running that we just decided. We
Speaker 2: turned to each other and said, we're so burnt out,
Speaker 2: we're exhausted, and it's not doable. It's not doable to
Speaker 2: have this Facebook group anymore. And I think getting rid
Speaker 2: of that Facebook group, although it hurt at the time
Speaker 2: and it was upsetting for the community, it was the
Speaker 2: absolute best things are and I could have done for
Speaker 2: our sanity and for our mental health and our work
Speaker 2: life balance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were really struggling, not just the Facebook group,
Speaker 1: but we were also struggling with the decision to close it.
Speaker 1: Like we just we also couldn't keep people safe anymore
Speaker 1: inside it. And I know that might sound like a
Speaker 1: strange thing to say, but when you've got really political
Speaker 1: conversations happening at all hours of the day, we don't
Speaker 1: have the power to moderate that at all hours of
Speaker 1: the day to the level that we want to. And
Speaker 1: so giving up and kind of effectively deleting what is
Speaker 1: a huge arm of your business is like an incredibly
Speaker 1: difficult decision because it was, as Mitch said, it was
Speaker 1: the heartland of Shameless, and it was kind of our
Speaker 1: entire community coming together. But as she also said, it
Speaker 1: was the best thing that we did, and we kind
Speaker 1: of put all our energy into other forms of social media,
Speaker 1: and we kind of channeled our energy. And I think
Speaker 1: if my advice was to any one, it would be
Speaker 1: work out kind of the things that are burning you out,
Speaker 1: Because for us, the Facebook group was burning us out,
Speaker 1: and we suddenly had all this extra energy to pour
Speaker 1: into really productive forms of social media that could actually
Speaker 1: grow our business, and for so long we were just
Speaker 1: juggling so many things that we kind of couldn't We
Speaker 1: couldn't see that we didn't have that clarity to say,
Speaker 1: we will have far more energy and kind of far
Speaker 1: better ideas if we delete this thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it gave us like a zest for the
Speaker 2: podcast back. I think because we had time to relax
Speaker 2: and time to switch off. And I know it sounds hyperbolic,
Speaker 2: but I truly don't think Cazara and I had the
Speaker 2: ability to switch off for a year. Like the Facebook
Speaker 2: group was the busiest on a Sunday, particularly a Sunday night,
Speaker 2: so we had to be in there and watching it
Speaker 2: like hawks in case someone said something offensive or someone
Speaker 2: upset someone else. And yeah, I think now that we've
Speaker 2: moved to a model where we focus a lot more
Speaker 2: on Instagram and other forms of social media to be
Speaker 2: really transparent about it. Yeah, we spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time on them, but we're also twenty six year olds
Speaker 2: who love social media anyway, So there is a part
Speaker 2: of it to us that does not feel like work.
Speaker 2: Like some of it's literally just finding funny memes or
Speaker 2: creating funny content that we can share with people and
Speaker 2: we get a lot of joy out of that.
Speaker 3: That decision about the Facebook group I find fascinating. Do
Speaker 3: you remember what went into making such a huge and
Speaker 3: important decision?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I think it was something that
Speaker 1: we floated three months before we did it, And I
Speaker 1: remember I was talking to Mish on the phone and
Speaker 1: we had kind of come into some issues again. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just I have these vivid memories of being like
Speaker 1: of a Tuesday evening, sitting in front of Netflix, trying
Speaker 1: to watch a series and realizing that my phone wasn't
Speaker 1: next to me, and if my phone wasn't next to me,
Speaker 1: then I couldn't see what was happening in the Facebook group.
Speaker 1: And if I couldn't see what was happening in the
Speaker 1: Facebook group, then things could be going wild. And we
Speaker 1: were having this conversation about how we were constantly very
Speaker 1: wired and very stressed, and I remember she said, have
Speaker 1: you ever thought about getting.
Speaker 5: Rid of it?
Speaker 1: And I thought, no, I didn't know that this was
Speaker 1: on the card.
Speaker 5: I didn't I didn't think that this was an option.
Speaker 1: And we said let's just sit with it, like, let's
Speaker 1: not do anything rash, Let's sit with it for about
Speaker 1: three months.
Speaker 5: And see how we go.
Speaker 1: And we spoke to a lot of people very close
Speaker 1: to us, and I spoke to kind of my sister,
Speaker 1: and I even mentioned it to my parents and my friends,
Speaker 1: and I.
Speaker 5: Was like, what do you think of this?
Speaker 1: And they were like the minute we even floated it
Speaker 1: as an idea, They're like, that's exactly what you need
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 5: That is exactly what you need to do.
Speaker 1: But we sat on it for such a long time
Speaker 1: to make sure it was the right call, because I
Speaker 1: think once you do something like that, you can't really
Speaker 1: go back.
Speaker 3: Definitely. Do you remember what that felt like hitting the
Speaker 3: delete button?
Speaker 2: It was quite freeing, to be honest, the day that
Speaker 2: we we archived the group, I actually got my head
Speaker 2: on that morning. I remember walking into the hairdresser and
Speaker 2: she looked at me and said, you just look like
Speaker 2: you're carrying the weight of your world, the weight of
Speaker 2: the world on your shoulders, And I'm like, it feels
Speaker 2: so ridiculous, Like we're talking about a Facebook group, and
Speaker 2: if you tell the average person that, they're like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, get over it. But it truly was something
Speaker 2: we stressed about, like we would get messages about this
Speaker 2: group at two am in the morning on a Tuesday
Speaker 2: or eleven pm on a Friday night. So it was
Speaker 2: something that consumed us. By the end, it was just
Speaker 2: incredibly freeing, and I think my love of work came
Speaker 2: back almost instantaneously that I felt so much freer to,
Speaker 2: I guess, switch off but then also create again, because
Speaker 2: I create the best content when I'm not actively trying
Speaker 2: to come up with ideas. Ideas come to me when
Speaker 2: I switch off and I spend time with my boyfriend
Speaker 2: or go for a walk or what have you. So
Speaker 2: it was the best decision we could have made, not
Speaker 2: just for our listeners and keeping them safe, but for
Speaker 2: ourselves in I guess, keeping that flame of passion for
Speaker 2: what we do lit.
Speaker 4: I find that so inspiring.
Speaker 3: Listening to what you guys did with the Facebook group,
Speaker 3: I think it takes like a lot of guts. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's a really significant size group to do and just
Speaker 3: hearing what happened as a result of that, it reminds
Speaker 3: me of one of my favorite books that I've.
Speaker 4: Read around this area. I guess, of you.
Speaker 3: Know, making decisions and how do you work out your priorities?
Speaker 3: Is this book called Essentialism by Greg mceuw and I
Speaker 3: think I've pronounced his surname correctly.
Speaker 4: And it's all about, like, how do you work.
Speaker 3: Out just what are the essential things that are going
Speaker 3: to create the most value and.
Speaker 4: Bring you the most joy in what you're doing.
Speaker 5: Yes, I think it's that idea of value.
Speaker 1: I really really do, because your mind can get quite
Speaker 1: muddied when you're across a million different things all the time.
Speaker 1: And for a long time there it was just Michelle
Speaker 1: and I running a business, running social media, doing podcasts,
Speaker 1: making podcasts for other people. We were writing a book
Speaker 1: all at the same time. We were doing this, and
Speaker 1: we nearly ruined our physical and mental health at the
Speaker 1: same time, and we weren't giving people the best value.
Speaker 1: Like I remember certain days we'd sit in front of
Speaker 1: the mics ready to record. It might be a Sunday morning,
Speaker 1: we were just like, how have we got to a
Speaker 1: point where the best and most kind of important part
Speaker 1: of our business, which is this record right now, is
Speaker 1: kind of the thing that's getting the least energy because
Speaker 1: we're so exhausted. And I think for us, just as
Speaker 1: what you said, it's about what value are we giving
Speaker 1: the listeners. We can't kind of reduce the quality of
Speaker 1: this episode. This episode is the most important thing, so
Speaker 1: we're going to have to kind of get rid of
Speaker 1: some other stuff to make sure that this remains the
Speaker 1: priority and it gets the energy it deserves.
Speaker 2: I think as well, when you get to the point
Speaker 2: that you have employees and you have people relying on you,
Speaker 2: and we work with a lot of freelancers and a
Speaker 2: lot of contractors, you have to have the difficult conversation
Speaker 2: with yourself that what is worth my time and what
Speaker 2: should I be investing my time into. Because people are
Speaker 2: relying on me. Like I rely on Zara, she relies
Speaker 2: on me. People rely on us. We can't continue to
Speaker 2: have these illogical priorities anymore. And we had to kind
Speaker 2: of invest in ourselves and make sure that we were
Speaker 2: okay before anything else. Yeah, it was just it was
Speaker 2: a very clarifying month. Actually, once we decided that we
Speaker 2: were going to do it and we were working on
Speaker 2: the messaging of how to close the group, it was
Speaker 2: very clarifying. And to look back now, I can't believe
Speaker 2: the way we were living and the way we were working,
Speaker 2: because it wasn't good for anyone.
Speaker 3: I'm curious as to how doing that has changed your
Speaker 3: approach to evaluating how many projects you are taking on
Speaker 3: at the one time. Like it reminds me of another
Speaker 3: one of my favorite books. My favorite book on decision
Speaker 3: making is this book called Decisive. Good name for a
Speaker 3: book on decision making. I like that it was a
Speaker 3: good Decision by Chip and Dan Heath, who are two
Speaker 3: of my favorite writers. And one of the strategies they
Speaker 3: talk about in this book is the idea when you
Speaker 3: make a decision and you know you're not one hundred
Speaker 3: percent sure if it's the right decision, is to put
Speaker 3: in place what they call trip wires, so things that
Speaker 3: you put, like even in your diary, to go, look
Speaker 3: if this is happening at this point in time, then
Speaker 3: review the decision, for example. And has that changed how
Speaker 3: you review your priorities and review the projects that you're
Speaker 3: deciding to commit to at any point in time. After
Speaker 3: that experience with the Facebook group.
Speaker 1: I think we'd actually started reviewing our priorities before that,
Speaker 1: and that's probably why we kind of landed in that
Speaker 1: conversation to start with. At the start of last year,
Speaker 1: So at the start of twenty nineteen, when I had
Speaker 1: quit my job and Michelle and I were working on
Speaker 1: Shameless full time.
Speaker 5: We had a lot.
Speaker 1: Of opportunities come to us and we said yes to
Speaker 1: every single one, and by about June, we were producing
Speaker 1: four or five podcast episodes a week to one for
Speaker 1: podcast called Sches on the Money that we produced the
Speaker 1: first season for another was a bespoke podcast for Love, etc.
Speaker 1: We were writing our book and running our social media
Speaker 1: channels and we looked at each.
Speaker 5: Other and we said, like, why did we do this
Speaker 5: to ourselves?
Speaker 1: But I think if we went back eighteen months, we'd
Speaker 1: probably do the same thing again, because you just want
Speaker 1: to say yes to everything. Right now, I still feel like,
Speaker 1: and I'd love to say if Mischi Gras and me,
Speaker 1: I still feel like we have a tendency.
Speaker 5: It's a tiny part of us.
Speaker 1: We keep doing that, like the most natural instinct is
Speaker 1: for us to be like yes, yes, yes, yes yes,
Speaker 1: and we have to actively pull ourselves back. But I
Speaker 1: think having deleted the Facebook group and understanding that the
Speaker 1: Shameless Monday Thursday episodes are our absolute priority has influenced
Speaker 1: now how we make decisions a little bit, because we
Speaker 1: always come back to that tea that is, is this
Speaker 1: going to impact the quality of Monday and Thursday, and
Speaker 1: if this is going to impact the quality and our
Speaker 1: energy levels and our time management, then we're not going
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think I must be the least woo
Speaker 2: woo person in the world. And yet I think the
Speaker 2: universe has had our back on a couple of occasions,
Speaker 2: because even after that horrific June period where we were
Speaker 2: so burnt out and so overworked last year, we then
Speaker 2: in the following months proceeded to say yes to a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of opportunities that at the time we're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: well this will be great, like let's do this, And
Speaker 2: if they had eventuated, we would have been in such
Speaker 2: a heap, like we would have been at our absolute
Speaker 2: lowest EBB if that at all eventuated, because we would
Speaker 2: have just been run off our feet. I don't know
Speaker 2: what's happened. We've been very, very lucky, and that things
Speaker 2: we've kind of leapt towards and be like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: what an incredible opportunity, let's do it. They fell through,
Speaker 2: And now that I look back, I'm like, thank god
Speaker 2: those things didn't happen. Otherwise I don't even know how
Speaker 2: I'd be able to function right now. And I think
Speaker 2: having those near misses has been very important for us
Speaker 2: because now Zara and I are very clear on what
Speaker 2: we think is worth our energy and what we want
Speaker 2: to align with. And I think the Shameless brand is
Speaker 2: something that is trusted by young women. That's something that
Speaker 2: we take incredibly seriously, and we also know that media
Speaker 2: brands can lose that trust so quickly. I think it's
Speaker 2: been something that has kind of torched part of the
Speaker 2: media industry here in Australia that there's not a huge
Speaker 2: amount of trust in journalists or in particular publications. So
Speaker 2: Zara and I now are very particular about what we
Speaker 2: want to do, and we already have a lot of
Speaker 2: work on our plate and we have an incredible team
Speaker 2: around us getting that work done. But to kind of
Speaker 2: bite off anything more, it has to make sense. And
Speaker 2: I think we've kind of come up with this vernacular
Speaker 2: to be like is it us? Like is it shameless?
Speaker 2: Because if it's not shameless and it doesn't make sense,
Speaker 2: then we're not going to touch it.
Speaker 3: So I would imagine with that, like with the discipline
Speaker 3: and not saying yes to everything means that you're saying
Speaker 3: no to things every single day, I would imagine, Yeah,
Speaker 3: what are your strategies for saying no and making it
Speaker 3: easier to say no?
Speaker 4: Because I think it's something that a lot of people
Speaker 4: struggle with.
Speaker 3: And I mean I've heard people say the best productivity
Speaker 3: tip in the world just say no to lots of things.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think we're perfect at it yet,
Speaker 1: but I think we're getting better. And I think it's
Speaker 1: having those examples of being like, is this that's another
Speaker 1: example of that project that we said yes to that
Speaker 1: we were so grateful that we that fell through? Because
Speaker 1: if it's another example of that, then then we're good.
Speaker 1: Let's just say no. We are saying not to stuff
Speaker 1: every single day. And I think the best part about
Speaker 1: the way we work, particularly at the moment, is we
Speaker 1: make decisions very very quickly, because the minute I think
Speaker 1: we're on the same page about something, it's almost always
Speaker 1: the right call for us.
Speaker 5: We make decisions really quickly, and we don't dwell. We
Speaker 5: will never dwell.
Speaker 1: I don't think we've ever looked back on anything we've
Speaker 1: said no to and thought, damn, we should have done that.
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably the biggest tip in productivity too,
Speaker 1: because dwelling can take up so much energy, Miish, what
Speaker 1: do you think?
Speaker 2: Well, one of our mentors, we had a coffee meeting
Speaker 2: last year and one of our mentors said to us,
Speaker 2: you need to write down your company values. You need
Speaker 2: to have very clearly defined values that you both agree on.
Speaker 2: And we went away from that meeting and this mentor
Speaker 2: has been so great to us and so generous, and
Speaker 2: we thought, okay, we have to do that, Like we
Speaker 2: have to get these framed and put them up all
Speaker 2: around our office and shamelessly, core value is content over money.
Speaker 2: That the content has to be there, the idea has
Speaker 2: to be there before any discussion of money comes into play.
Speaker 2: And I think that's where some people tend to get
Speaker 2: themselves into trouble that they see a figure and they go,
Speaker 2: that's really great, Like maybe that could get me a
Speaker 2: new car, or maybe I would feel a little bit
Speaker 2: more comfortable financially right now if I had this paycheck
Speaker 2: come through. But Fizara and I what we've learned, hopefully,
Speaker 2: I think, is that if the idea isn't great, even
Speaker 2: if the money is amazing, it will burn you in
Speaker 2: the long run. And anything that we put our names
Speaker 2: to it has to be something that we see longevity
Speaker 2: in something that we think will work and entertain and
Speaker 2: empower and educate our listeners. And if we don't think
Speaker 2: it's going to do that, there is not a figure
Speaker 2: big enough to make us leap at it. Because building
Speaker 2: trust is the absolute most important thing to us. So
Speaker 2: that content over money principle is something that we come
Speaker 2: back to again and again and again, and then, to
Speaker 2: be blunt, the value after that is just to work
Speaker 2: with people that we genuinely like, Like when we come
Speaker 2: across people who present us with ideas, we want to
Speaker 2: be working with good people that we trust and that
Speaker 2: we value. And I think that has also led us
Speaker 2: in a really brilliant direction, and that I think we're
Speaker 2: now surrounded by a team and by contractors and by
Speaker 2: people at other companies like Bumble who we absolutely adore,
Speaker 2: and we think we're all very much on the same page.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that's really interesting what you're saying around your
Speaker 3: content over money and also making quick decisions. I've got
Speaker 3: to say that really resonates something I think about a
Speaker 3: lot for how I work is that every day I'll
Speaker 3: get pitched to you by someone to get a guest
Speaker 3: on the show, and often I can make a quick decision,
Speaker 3: and I find that the quick decisions are the best decisions.
Speaker 3: But sometimes I'll find that I'll sit on something and
Speaker 3: if I end up going in the.
Speaker 4: Yes direction, I often regret it.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And then I also think, for me, what's
Speaker 3: been quite a good rule of when I'm making decisions
Speaker 3: about who to have on the show is do I care? Like,
Speaker 3: am I interested in how this person or how these
Speaker 3: people work? And I think I've got myself into trouble
Speaker 3: where on a couple of occasions I've.
Speaker 4: Gone, oh, yeah, I think I'll do it, and then
Speaker 4: I'm in.
Speaker 3: The research process for the episode and I'm like, I
Speaker 3: just don't really care. So I can completely relate to that.
Speaker 2: It's like that feeling of excitement, right, you need to
Speaker 2: be excited by something. I think Zara and I very
Speaker 2: heavily lean on that. If we're not excited by a
Speaker 2: prospect or an opportunity, then it's probably just not right
Speaker 2: for us.
Speaker 3: Now. On the topic of research, when I was researching
Speaker 3: for this interview Zarah, I read that you said in
Speaker 3: response to a question that was something like, what have
Speaker 3: you had to be honest with yourself about? And you
Speaker 3: said that people will genuinely dislike what we do, and
Speaker 3: I found that really interesting.
Speaker 4: Could you expand on that.
Speaker 5: I mean, very easily, mat No.
Speaker 1: I mean we started this when we were twenty three, right,
Speaker 1: and your ego is still very much in flux.
Speaker 5: At twenty three.
Speaker 1: You're sort of working out who you are, what you believe,
Speaker 1: how confident you feel in yourself and your own abilities.
Speaker 1: And for your job to accidentally become kind of public
Speaker 1: and to build this audience as you're kind of building
Speaker 1: your skills is a really intimidating thing. And suddenly some
Speaker 1: of the feedback is going to be hard, absolutely, some
Speaker 1: of it's going to be great, and some of it's
Speaker 1: going to be hard, and some of it will be
Speaker 1: personal too. And so for us, it's been an absolute
Speaker 1: process of getting to a point where we cannot possibly
Speaker 1: put out a show two times a week that every
Speaker 1: single person in the country will like, because if we
Speaker 1: pulled out a show that every single person liked, then
Speaker 1: it would be boring and it wouldn't say anything.
Speaker 5: It wouldn't exist, exactly, it wouldn't exist.
Speaker 1: And it's such a sort of it's such an obvious
Speaker 1: thing to reconcile and to reckon with. But it's the
Speaker 1: idea that a good show will still be hated by
Speaker 1: a lot of people, because if you're not putting out
Speaker 1: a really I guess, passionate, decisive, opinionated show, then everybody
Speaker 1: will like it or not even then actually true.
Speaker 5: So it's just been a.
Speaker 1: Time of process because we're still on the twenty six now,
Speaker 1: and I think you are still coming into your own
Speaker 1: and then for other opinions or external opinions to create
Speaker 1: noise around your work can be really, really intimidating. But
Speaker 1: I think we're at a point now where we're much
Speaker 1: stronger for having done this job and much more sure
Speaker 1: of ourselves in the content we want to put out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we I think the way we measure successes
Speaker 2: changed it a little bit as the podcast has gotten bigger,
Speaker 2: in that we know that the types of things we
Speaker 2: talk about and the political leaning we take, which is
Speaker 2: left leaning, won't appeal to everyone. And that's okay. I'm
Speaker 2: not trying to appeal to every single person who come
Speaker 2: across an episode. I'm trying to appeal to the women
Speaker 2: who are like my sisters and my friends and me,
Speaker 2: And so as long as we feel like we're doing
Speaker 2: a good job by young women, then that's what we
Speaker 2: care the most about, and they're the people we really
Speaker 2: look to when the feedback does come. If we're kind
Speaker 2: of veering off our team, we're not doing our job
Speaker 2: by young women, then we will absolutely listen to it.
Speaker 2: But as far as what I don't know, maybe an
Speaker 2: older man in his fifties thinks of Shameless, I'm not
Speaker 2: particularly concerned. Like he can have his opinions. I probably
Speaker 2: don't enjoy the radio shows or the podcast that he loves.
Speaker 2: So it's been a big lesson that you're not going
Speaker 2: to be liked by everyone, particularly when you say political
Speaker 2: divisive things. And that's more than okay.
Speaker 1: I remember calling a mentor when miss and I were
Speaker 1: kind of like in the middle of a bit of
Speaker 1: a crisis about what Shameless was, and you know, how
Speaker 1: do we deal with all this feedback? And we called
Speaker 1: him and we said, we're struggling with feedback. Some people
Speaker 1: don't like the show. And he had said, yeah, like,
Speaker 1: is that it? And I was like, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, he was like, of course this
Speaker 1: is going to happen. That's the most obvious thing to
Speaker 1: me in the world. And He's like, keep doing what
Speaker 1: you're doing, put your head down and do the work,
Speaker 1: and some people won't like it, and I don't care
Speaker 1: about that. And his kind of complete confusion as to
Speaker 1: why we thought this was a big deal was kind
Speaker 1: of very clarifying for us because we were like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's worked with some of the biggest duos and some
Speaker 1: of the biggest shows in the country, and if he's
Speaker 1: surprised that we're feeling like this, then maybe it's an
Speaker 1: actual thing that everybody has to deal with.
Speaker 3: I love that piece of advice. I'm going to take
Speaker 3: that on board for myself as well. Now I have
Speaker 3: a couple of final questions, because we're nearly at a time.
Speaker 3: I want to know, podcasts, what are you guys both
Speaker 3: consuming and loving at the moment?
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I mean it changes every week. The
Speaker 2: standout podcast for me in twenty twenty is Dying for Sex,
Speaker 2: which is a story between two best friends, one of
Speaker 2: them is dying with terminal cancer and kind of it
Speaker 2: explores abuse, but it also explores female sexual expression and
Speaker 2: it's incredibly life affirming and it's probably one of the
Speaker 2: best podcast series I've ever listened to. It's one that
Speaker 2: I've continually come back to throughout the year that I
Speaker 2: think is just so brilliant. Zara, on the other hand,
Speaker 2: is more high brow than I am and absolutely loves
Speaker 2: The Daily.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I'm not more high ro than you
Speaker 1: at all, but I love I think for me when
Speaker 1: I consue my news, I'm starting to consume it more
Speaker 1: and more through podcasts, so I am a religious listener
Speaker 1: of The Daily and this American life.
Speaker 5: I love Desert Island Discs.
Speaker 1: I find a lot of comfort in that podcast, I
Speaker 1: think because I've listen.
Speaker 5: To it for such a long time.
Speaker 1: If I'm feeling a bit lost or stressed or overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: I always find myself gravitating to an old episode of
Speaker 1: Desert Island Discs. I love long Form, I think because
Speaker 1: miss and I long Form's brilliant writers at heart. I
Speaker 1: love hearing how other writers write and what their process
Speaker 1: is and their careers. And another good one, I get
Speaker 1: How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I really love, I
Speaker 1: really love that podcast.
Speaker 3: Awesome, that's a great list. I think we have some
Speaker 3: crossover in our taste there.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: My final question is how can people consume more of
Speaker 3: what you're doing and get their hands on a copy
Speaker 3: of the space between as well.
Speaker 2: Well, it depends where you live. If you're in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: I'm guessing the best way to go about it is online,
Speaker 2: probably through Pootopia or I know that we're going to
Speaker 2: be on audible. We're doing an audiobook ebook the whole thing,
Speaker 2: So online bookstores. What else is area? On social media?
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, we're at Shameless Podcast on social media,
Speaker 1: and I guess that's the centerpiece of kind of where
Speaker 1: everything is. So if you want to come to there,
Speaker 1: I can say, Hi, that's where we usually are. But yeah,
Speaker 1: as you say, if you're in Melbourne, don't go out
Speaker 1: to a book store.
Speaker 5: I don't think they'll be open at the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you like book in general, join our
Speaker 2: book club. We have a Facebook group. I mean, we
Speaker 2: spoke so much about deleting our Facebook group we had two.
Speaker 2: We failed to mention that we've got another Facebook group
Speaker 2: that has twenty six thousand people in it. That's our
Speaker 2: book club. But it's a much easier, more gentle place
Speaker 2: to moderate than the original Shameless Facebook group. So Shameless
Speaker 2: Podcast book Club on Facebook.
Speaker 3: If you love reading, Michelle Zara, I've loved having you
Speaker 3: guys on the show. Fascinating to hear about how one
Speaker 3: of the most popular podcasts in Australia is made and
Speaker 3: just about how you guys do it all. It's just
Speaker 3: so impressive. I can't believe you're twenty six. Surely you're lying.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I am Zara. You're still
Speaker 2: the juries out on you.
Speaker 5: I'm going to say, I can I expect for myself here.
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, guys, Thank you. That is it for
Speaker 4: today's show.
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with
Speaker 3: someone else that you think would all also like it
Speaker 3: and get something from it. And if you're feeling in
Speaker 3: the mood, maybe leave a review for how I work
Speaker 3: in Apple Podcasts. I'm super grateful for the hundreds of
Speaker 3: people that have done just that. So that's ittport today
Speaker 3: and I will see you next time.