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Speaker 1: If my advice was to anyone, it would be work

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Speaker 1: out kind of the things that are burning you out.

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Speaker 1: Because for us, the Facebook grip was burning us out,

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Speaker 1: and we suddenly had all this extra energy to pour

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Speaker 1: into really productive forms of social media that could actually

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Speaker 1: grow our business. And for so long we were just

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Speaker 1: juggling so many things that we kind of couldn't We

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Speaker 1: couldn't see that, we didn't have that clarity to say,

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Speaker 1: we will have far more energy and kind of far

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Speaker 1: better ideas if we delete this thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it gave us like a zest for the

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Speaker 2: podcast back, I think because we had time to relax

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Speaker 2: and time to switch off. And I know it sounds hyperbolic,

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Speaker 2: but I truly don't think Zara and I had the

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Speaker 2: ability to switch off for a year.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 3: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 3: much out of their day. I'm your host, Doctor Aman.

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Speaker 3: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 3: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. Now,

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Speaker 3: before we get into today's episode, just a few things

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Speaker 3: from me. Something I am playing around with for the

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Speaker 3: mini Tuesday episode that I release is responding to listener questions.

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Speaker 3: So if you've got a question about how you approach

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Speaker 3: work or about productivity, managing time, being happier and healthier

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Speaker 3: at work, I would love to hear from you and

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Speaker 3: maybe help you out with a hopefully intelligent answer to

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Speaker 3: your question.

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Speaker 4: So, if you've got something on your mind, I'd love

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Speaker 4: you to share it with me.

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Speaker 3: I am at Amantha at inventium dot com dot au

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Speaker 3: and my email address is always in the show notes

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Speaker 3: as well. Our second if you are enjoying How I Work,

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Speaker 3: or maybe this is the first episode that you've listened to,

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Speaker 3: and so if you get something out of this episode,

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Speaker 3: I would love it if you can spread the word

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Speaker 3: share it with someone else that.

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Speaker 4: You think could benefit from it.

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Speaker 3: And finally, I love getting feed back from listeners. It's

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Speaker 3: super easy and quick to leave a review in Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: You can do a star rating and be amongst the

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Speaker 3: four hundred. Also other people that have done that, or

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Speaker 3: even write some words or even email me your feedback.

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Speaker 3: That is also super lovely to receive. Okay, let's get

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Speaker 3: on with this episode. My guests on today's show, Michelle

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Speaker 3: Andrews and Zara McDonald. Michelle and Zara and Melbourne based

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Speaker 3: journalists and broadcasters. And they are only twenty six years old,

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Speaker 3: which will blow your mind when you hear about what

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Speaker 3: they have achieved. So they met when they were working

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Speaker 3: as writers for Mumma Mia and in March twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: they launched Australia's top pop culture podcast, which is called Shameless,

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Speaker 3: which they say is for smart women who like dumb stuff.

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Speaker 3: They now run Shameless Media and are the producers of

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Speaker 3: three other very popular podcasts. So Shameless has been downloaded

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Speaker 3: over ten million times. That is a lot in the

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Speaker 3: world of podcasts, and Shameless was crowned Australia's most Popular

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Speaker 3: Podcast of twenty nineteen at the Australian Podcast Awards. Michelle

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Speaker 3: and Zara and their podcast have been written about in

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Speaker 3: The New York Times, The Guardian, The Age and Murray Claire, among.

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Speaker 4: A whole bunch of other places.

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Speaker 3: So I was so excited to have Michelle and Zara

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Speaker 3: on the show. I've followed their work for a while

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Speaker 3: and what they have achieved.

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Speaker 2: Is just so impressive.

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Speaker 3: So in this episode we spend a lot of time

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Speaker 3: going behind the scenes of making one of Australia's most

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Speaker 3: popular and downloaded podcasts, Shameless. So we talk about where

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Speaker 3: they get their inspiration from, how they prepare for interviews,

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Speaker 3: how they keep their band afresh, all sorts of things,

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Speaker 3: and then we get into things like how they make

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Speaker 3: decisions around the podcast and their business, and how they

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Speaker 3: deal with negative feedback, because if your podcast has been

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Speaker 3: downloaded over ten million times, you've probably gotten a lot

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Speaker 3: of negative feedback as well as positive. So I just

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Speaker 3: I love this chat. So on that note, let's go

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Speaker 3: to Michelle and Zara to hear about how they work.

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Speaker 4: Michelle Zara, welcome to How I Work.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 5: We're so flattered to be here.

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited to have you both on the show.

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Speaker 3: And this is also quite novel for me. Like interviewing

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Speaker 3: two people at the one time.

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Speaker 2: It can be tricky. Zara, We're gonna have to like

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Speaker 2: figure out who speaks when. It'll be interesting. We're just

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Speaker 2: going to jump in.

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 4: Oh awesome. I'm loving the challenge.

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Speaker 2: So where I want to start.

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Speaker 3: You guys produce and star in and create and pretty

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Speaker 3: much do everything for one of the most downloaded podcasts

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Speaker 3: in Australia, which is Shameless, And I just want to

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Speaker 3: start by, particularly for listeners that are unfamiliar with Shame

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Speaker 3: and all the content that you guys produce. Can you

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Speaker 3: just kind of give an overview of, like what is

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Speaker 3: all the content.

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Speaker 4: That you are putting out into the world every week? Okay?

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Speaker 2: So Shameless is a podcast for smart people who love

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Speaker 2: dumb stuff. So it's a pop culture podcast and celebrity

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Speaker 2: podcast basically covering the issues that women mostly care about

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Speaker 2: but maybe haven't had an outlet to discuss or think

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Speaker 2: about in a way that's intelligent and meaningful and thoughtful.

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Speaker 2: So we do a Monday episode that is kind of

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Speaker 2: a rap in the week that was in pop culture.

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Speaker 2: We do a Thursday episode that is always an interview

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Speaker 2: with an influential person. Some Saturdays we do a book

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Speaker 2: club episode, which is like a roundtable discussion about a

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Speaker 2: book that we select for that month. So next month's

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Speaker 2: book is The Yield by Tara June Winch. We have

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Speaker 2: a newsletter that we drop every single Friday, and that

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Speaker 2: is a weekly recommendations newsletter, So it has a column

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Speaker 2: from someone in the show Shameless team or one of

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Speaker 2: our listeners that we've collaborated with and it then has

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Speaker 2: a read, watch listen recommendation. It also has a shameless

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Speaker 2: recipe that we've worked with a shameless chef on Jess Newan, Zora,

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Speaker 2: am I'm missing anything. We also do live shows, We

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Speaker 2: make other podcasts. We have a podcast series with Bumble

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Speaker 2: called Love Etc. That we absolutely love creating. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: we do stuff on social media, create video content. We

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Speaker 2: do a video series every fortnight called Shamelessly Stupid, which

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Speaker 2: is basically like a silly, frivolous game show with Australian

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Speaker 2: best friends that are well known. Zora, If I missed anything.

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Speaker 5: I don't think so. Maybe just the book that we've

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Speaker 5: pushed out.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, we've written a book together.

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Speaker 3: Of course, we also read a book together that side project. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like you know books right themselves and all that, don't they?

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, that is so much content. I want to

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Speaker 3: know where are you getting your ideas from in terms

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Speaker 3: of what to put out into the world every week.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting you ask, because I think Michelle is

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Speaker 1: much better at ideas than I am. But I think

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Speaker 1: when it comes to both of us looking for ideas,

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Speaker 1: we're looking in our group chats with our girlfriends. We're

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Speaker 1: talking to our sisters, who are hugely influential with us

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Speaker 1: when it comes to kind of knowing what people are

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Speaker 1: interested in, particularly young women between the ages of about

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Speaker 1: twenty and thirty. So we're looking around a lot, we're

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Speaker 1: looking sideways a lot. I think we found between us

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Speaker 1: that the best ideas that we've created have come from

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Speaker 1: conversations that we're just having with our girlfriends where we're

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Speaker 1: realizing that, you know what, people aren't really having this

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Speaker 1: conversation elsewhere, and maybe we've got a platform to be

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Speaker 1: able to have it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And I think it's been massive for

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Speaker 2: us to actually physically write down those ideas, right, Like

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Speaker 2: Zara and I constantly trying to create content every week

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Speaker 2: and constantly trying to hit the nail on the head

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Speaker 2: with what we've talking about. So we are constantly flinging

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Speaker 2: each other links to news articles or to tweets that

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Speaker 2: we find interesting, or to memes on Instagram or to

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Speaker 2: screenshots with our best friends. So finding the ideas is

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Speaker 2: probably the trickiest part of our job because we have

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Speaker 2: to be so selective with what we're talking about, not

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Speaker 2: just because we want the content to be really relevant

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Speaker 2: to our audience, but also as the podcasting industry has

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Speaker 2: grown pretty exponentially over the last twelve months. In particular,

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Speaker 2: we want to be covering content that not everyone else

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Speaker 2: is talking about as well, Like we want to be

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Speaker 2: able to have a fresh edge that the podcasts who

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Speaker 2: might have similar audiences to ours. We don't want the

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Speaker 2: listener to be fed the same kind of segment again

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Speaker 2: and again. So that's presented a new challenge, but it's

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Speaker 2: been one that we've really relished because it means we

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Speaker 2: kind of get to sharpen our swords a bit and

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Speaker 2: kind of think really deeply about what topics and what

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Speaker 2: conversations we want to have on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I could imagine that would be very challenging to

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Speaker 3: either find unique things to talk about or unique angles

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Speaker 3: into something that everyone is talking about. Do you do

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Speaker 3: you guys have I don't know, like go to websites

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Speaker 3: or blogs or influencers and stuff like that that you

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Speaker 3: do find that you're checking on a regular basis for inspiration.

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Speaker 1: I mean, before we go and record our week clean

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Speaker 1: Monday episode over the Friday, Saturday Sunday, we will be

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Speaker 1: scanning everything. And I think the interesting part about our

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Speaker 1: podcast is that we cover really lowbrow things and we

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Speaker 1: try to cover things that aren't especially stupid too, And

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Speaker 1: to be honest, although the podcast is very Australian and

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Speaker 1: we cover a lot of local news, we seek a

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Speaker 1: lot of inspiration from stuff like the Atlantic, stuff like

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Speaker 1: Man Repeller publications. I guess that write really well on

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Speaker 1: culture and kind of trends and the zeitgeist, because we

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Speaker 1: find that that's what our audience are talking about too.

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Speaker 1: And I think, harping back to what Misch was talking

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Speaker 1: about before, when we're trying to separate ourselves out from

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Speaker 1: what is a really saturated landscape, going overseas and looking

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Speaker 1: at kind of getting in brain from overseas can help

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 3: And so on Thursdays you release an interview. And I mean,

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Speaker 3: you've had some amazing guests on the show, like ex

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister Julia Gillard, And what is your process for

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Speaker 3: preparing for interviews?

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Speaker 4: And I partly ask so I can steal some of it.

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Speaker 2: We actually go away separately from each other and we

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Speaker 2: do about two hours of independent research. So often that

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Speaker 2: will be reading interviews that person has done with online

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Speaker 2: publications or listening to podcast interviews they've done with other podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or even to be honest, trolling through their social media

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Speaker 2: or reading books that they may have put out, what

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Speaker 2: have you. But it's really important that Zara and I

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Speaker 2: have that bit where we go away and we actually

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Speaker 2: don't spend the entire time in each other's ears saying

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Speaker 2: what we think is the most interesting part or what

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Speaker 2: we really want to ask them about, because generally it

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Speaker 2: means that we go away, we hear all the different things.

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Speaker 2: We make sure that we don't listen to the same

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Speaker 2: interviews or read the same interviews as each other, so

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Speaker 2: there's not a heap of overlapp and then we come

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Speaker 2: together and we generally tend to have like a really

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Speaker 2: eclectic mix of questions and ideas and thoughts that we

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Speaker 2: want to bring to the chat. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: so important because Zara and I, although we're very very

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Speaker 2: similar in so many ways, I think sometimes the kind

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Speaker 2: of content that we lean towards is quite different. Do

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Speaker 2: you agree with that, Zara?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Completely.

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Speaker 1: I think for any kind of prep we do for

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Speaker 1: any podcast, right, whether that is a Thursday episode which

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Speaker 1: is our interview episode, or a Monday episode, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of our weekly wrap in pop culture. We always

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Speaker 1: prep separately and we don't kind of look at each

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Speaker 1: other's notes or anything. And it's kind of funny because

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Speaker 1: Nish's right, often there are different angles we want to take,

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Speaker 1: but very often it's kind of funny that we've both

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Speaker 1: pulled out quotes from an article that we've both read

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Speaker 1: that we really love, and so that's how we know

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Speaker 1: straight away that's something we have to talk about. If

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Speaker 1: we're both pulling out the same quote from the same article,

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Speaker 1: then clearly we're on the same page here about this idea.

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Speaker 2: And do you go.

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Speaker 3: Into interviews with kind of like the angle, the angle

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Speaker 3: that you're going to use to promote it with, or

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Speaker 3: is it much more kind of exploratory and just being

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Speaker 3: open to whatever. The most interesting thing that emerges is.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely more exploratory. We don't go in with an

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Speaker 2: idea of what we're going to sell it on, or

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Speaker 2: like the pull out quote that we're going to put

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Speaker 2: at the very beginning of the episode to entice people in.

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Speaker 2: I think generally we try to make our questions chronological

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Speaker 2: as much as we can, like we want to explore

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Speaker 2: a person's life, and we always begin our chats with

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Speaker 2: childhood and kind of branch out from there. But we

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Speaker 2: kind of let the interview, we take the chat wherever

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Speaker 2: they want to go. Like there have been interviews we've

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Speaker 2: done where we've had our full list of questions, and

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Speaker 2: Zara and I are meticulous preparers for interviews, like we

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Speaker 2: never go in. It baffles me how some people can

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Speaker 2: do interviews without writing questions down. We always go in

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Speaker 2: with a full list and like the order of which

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Speaker 2: we want to ask them. But there have been interviews

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Speaker 2: where we've kind of scrapped the last half of the

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Speaker 2: middle section of questions entirely because the interviewee has taken

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Speaker 2: the podcast episode in a completely new direction. And I

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Speaker 2: really like, genuinely love when that happens because I think

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Speaker 2: it shows that they're speaking authentically and they clearly want

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Speaker 2: to get something off their chest. And I think those

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Speaker 2: podcast interviews tend to be the best because you know

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Speaker 2: that someone speaking with Canada and honesty.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting that you say that I can definitely relate.

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Speaker 3: I'm quite meticulous in how I prepare for interviews. I

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Speaker 3: have reduced the time it takes me from got like,

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Speaker 3: you know, six or seven hours I was doing in

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Speaker 3: the early days two years ago and now I kind of,

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Speaker 3: you know, can prep in about an hour or two,

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Speaker 3: depending on how much I know about the guest. But

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Speaker 3: I had I had this really interesting piece of advice

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Speaker 3: from someone I had on the show a few months ago,

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Speaker 3: this woman Harris Faulkner, who's a Fox News anchor over

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Speaker 3: in America, and she said she'll only go into interviews

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Speaker 3: with two or three questions. And she's really deliberate about

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Speaker 3: that because she finds if she goes in with a

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Speaker 3: whole stack of questions, then she's less open to what

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Speaker 3: emerges and she doesn't listen as well. I thought, oh gosh,

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Speaker 3: I'm not about to do that, But I found that

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Speaker 3: really interesting.

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Speaker 5: It's a real skill, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: I think interviewing everybody has their own way of doing it.

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Speaker 1: I think for miss and I, we don't go in missions, right,

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Speaker 1: We don't go in with an angle or how we know,

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Speaker 1: you know, how we're going to sell it later.

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Speaker 5: But we do go in knowing the kind of story.

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Speaker 1: That this episode will tell, because we often organize each

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Speaker 1: week or each month with a very different kind of

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Speaker 1: set of stories that we can tell. So are making

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Speaker 1: sure we're platforming as many different voices as we can.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we go in with such meticulous prep.

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Speaker 1: That said, so very often you will kind of scrap

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Speaker 1: three questions in a row because you're like this just

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter or they've already covered that, and you kind

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Speaker 1: of We're really flexible with how the chat flows. But

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Speaker 1: I guess having a structure there that you can see

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Speaker 1: kind of gives the interview bones, because I really think

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Speaker 1: a lot of interviews need bones, and I think, to

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Speaker 1: be honest, what we're seeing with podcasting at the moment,

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Speaker 1: with a completely like we say, saturated market and podcasts everywhere,

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of interviews kind of you can't

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Speaker 1: see those bones and you kind of don't know where

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Speaker 1: it's going. And as a listener, I don't like that experience.

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Speaker 1: I don't like not knowing where it's going, or thinking

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Speaker 1: perhaps that the interviewer doesn't know where the interviews going.

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Speaker 1: So because I'm that kind of listener, I want to

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Speaker 1: be that kind of interviewer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the most important skills for

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Speaker 2: us to hone has been kind of identifying where the

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Speaker 2: knots are, and I mean the knots is in like

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Speaker 2: you might ask someone a question, they might give you

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Speaker 2: this knot of something and then completely move on. But

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Speaker 2: being able to identify that and then tease that out

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Speaker 2: for the next question, it can sometimes just lead you

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Speaker 2: down a really great path of conversation that maybe they

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Speaker 2: even didn't intend on having originally. But that's been huge

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Speaker 2: for us. I think when we were perhaps more immature

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Speaker 2: or a little bit younger as journalists, we didn't have

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Speaker 2: that skill so much. We did fall back on the

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Speaker 2: questions we had pre prepped. But I think I'm happy

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Speaker 2: with where we are now as interviewers and that we

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Speaker 2: can identify those spots more and really tunnel down them.

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Speaker 3: I want to move on to the Monday episode, and

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Speaker 3: for those that haven't listened to a Monday episode of Shameless,

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Speaker 3: can you just, in a nutshell describe what is happening

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Speaker 3: in that episode?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: What we usually do is Mission now will kind of look, o,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the week that kind of was, and

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Speaker 1: we'll grab usually two big stories from the pop culture

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Speaker 1: news cycle, and we can be a little bit flexible

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Speaker 1: on what kind of constitutes a pop culture story. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it might be about you know, your big celebrity Beyonce,

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Speaker 1: or so maybe Sometimes it might be a social media

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Speaker 1: trend on Instagram this week. Gosh, I was just about

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Speaker 1: to say, this is what we did this week, mes,

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Speaker 1: but I've already forgotten.

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Speaker 5: That's how much stuff is going on.

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Speaker 1: It might be you know, a video clip we covered

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Speaker 1: and what we what we intend to do with that

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Speaker 1: episode is yes, talk about the top line points that

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Speaker 1: are going on in the celebrity and pop culture new cycle,

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Speaker 1: but also kind of tease it out to.

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Speaker 5: Be like, well, what what does this story say about us?

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Speaker 1: Like why are we so interested? What does it say

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Speaker 1: about feminism? What does it say about culture? I think

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Speaker 1: for so long and the reason that we started Shameless

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Speaker 1: is that women have been shamed into thinking that their

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Speaker 1: interests are dumb and stupid, that if they watch Keeping

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Speaker 1: Up with the Kardashians, they must only have half a brain.

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Speaker 1: And I just fundamentally reject that idea. I think we

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Speaker 1: can learn so much from what people are interested in

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Speaker 1: when it comes to celebrity and pop culture. I think

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Speaker 1: it says so much about who we are as people

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Speaker 1: and what it says about the zeitgeist and mission. And

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Speaker 1: I have always joked that, like, you know, stereotypically, men

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Speaker 1: can watch other men tackling each other and running around

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Speaker 1: at oval, you know, chasing a leather ball, and we

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Speaker 1: don't consider that stupid, but we consider watching a reality

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Speaker 1: TV show quite stupid, which can tell us a lot

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Speaker 1: more about the world in my opinion. So the Monday episode,

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Speaker 1: I guess the intention of it is to talk about

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Speaker 1: things in a way pop culture and celebrity in a

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Speaker 1: way that's not stupid, and kind of in a way

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Speaker 1: that allows and empowers our listeners to think really, really,

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Speaker 1: really critically about the stuff they're consuming in the news.

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Speaker 4: I think that's great.

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Speaker 3: And for the record, I'm like, I'm a US Bachelor addict.

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Speaker 4: Weah, I know, I'm dying.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like, you know, really, isn't the worst thing

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Speaker 3: about COVID that they've gone out of production.

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Speaker 2: It's devastating a joke, Yes, the black hole of reality

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Speaker 2: TV content content, in fact, any entertainment content. We're going

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Speaker 2: to really feel it next year. As you said, it's

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Speaker 2: far from being the worst thing about this pandemic, but

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Speaker 2: we're going to be like reality TV deprived in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, we are. It's going to be as

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Speaker 4: depressing a year as this one.

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Speaker 3: Something I'm curious about and this is I mean, I

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Speaker 3: feel like like you'd have a lot of listeners that

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Speaker 3: are so curious to see how the sausage is made.

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Speaker 3: But I also asked this again canmpletely selfishly because I'm

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Speaker 3: in pre production for a new podcast which is completely

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Speaker 3: different to.

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Speaker 4: How I work.

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Speaker 3: So I'm like about one year out of my marriage

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Speaker 3: and I'm dating again, and I'm in my early forties,

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Speaker 3: and it's this whole other world where I.

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Speaker 4: Didn't think that I'd be dating again in my lifetime.

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Speaker 3: So together with my closest girlfriend Monique, where we're starting

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Speaker 3: this podcast about dating, I got incredible, incredible I hope

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Speaker 3: it will be. So just going quite kind of like

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Speaker 3: deep in in doing interviews at the moment, and something

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Speaker 3: that we're trying to figure out is what is our

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Speaker 3: tone of voice? How much do we script when you know,

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Speaker 3: essentially there's there's sections that are simply banter between Monique

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Speaker 3: and myself as distinct from guest interviews. And I want

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Speaker 3: to know what would we see going on behind the

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Speaker 3: scenes for you guys for the recording of the Monday episode,

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Speaker 3: Like how much is scripted? How much do you discuss beforehand?

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Speaker 3: You know, something I've become aware about is Monique and

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Speaker 3: I talk every day anyway as girlfriends. But if we

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Speaker 3: talk about something on the phone and then we sit

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Speaker 3: down and record it, it's like it's not as funny

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Speaker 3: as it was we talked about it on the phone.

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Speaker 4: So tell me how does that work for you guys?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So we have some really strict rules. We prep

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Speaker 2: completely separately, so we decide on the topics that we

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Speaker 2: want to discuss. Obviously, it'll always be a phone call

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Speaker 2: or a video chat where we pin down exactly what

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Speaker 2: story we want to do for the first segment, the

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Speaker 2: five really quick sugary stories we want to cover in

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Speaker 2: the Quick and dirty, which is our middle segment, which

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Speaker 2: is basically just a rundown of the top headlines that week,

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Speaker 2: and then the final segment as well. So we decide

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Speaker 2: on the segments, but we have a really strict rule

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Speaker 2: with each other that we're not allowed to say anything

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Speaker 2: on them when we're on a call. We want all

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Speaker 2: of our genuine opinions and our realizations and our i

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Speaker 2: don't know, like the machinations of how we worked through

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Speaker 2: a certain topic to play out on the podcast. So

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Speaker 2: the only things we script in an episode is the

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Speaker 2: introduction to eat each section, and we'll just kind of

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Speaker 2: put a name next to each one to be like, Okay, Mish,

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Speaker 2: you're introing the episode this week, so I'll go and

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Speaker 2: write the intro paragraph. But then we just have our

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Speaker 2: own dot points for the first segment, and we don't

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Speaker 2: look at each other's dot points. We don't see them.

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Speaker 2: We have like our Google docs, and then we just

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Speaker 2: kind of jump on and flesh out what we think

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Speaker 2: and hear each other's thoughts for the very first time.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's been so important to us, not

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Speaker 2: the entire time we've done the podcast. In fact, for

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Speaker 2: the first month we did the podcast, we kind of

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Speaker 2: scripted the whole thing, I think, Zarah, but very much

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Speaker 2: so from episode three or four onwards. We knew that

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Speaker 2: for it to be good content, everything had to be authentic,

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Speaker 2: which is such an annoying buzzword, but authentic and genuine,

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Speaker 2: and our listeners I hope can pick that up that

438
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: the conversation we're having is something we've never had before,

439
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: and it's not manufactured and it's certainly not recycled from

440
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 2: a previous phone call, which.

441
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 1: Means the most annoying thing of all is Mitch will

442
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: be like the funniest thing happened to me this week,

443
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: But I actually cannot tell you until we get onto

444
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: microphone with kids again. If I rehash this story for

445
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: the second time on Mike, it's gonna kind of lose

446
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: its charm. And even still to this day, we'll find

447
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: ourselves kind of wanting to have a conversation about one

448
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: of the segments we've picked, and we'll start and someone

449
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: we just won't stop, and the other person will have

450
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 1: to be like, shut up.

451
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

452
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 3: I was having that conversation with Monique the other day,

453
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 3: like Monique stopped telling me the story. We need to

454
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 3: keep it fresh. Oh yeah, it's very encouraging to hear

455
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 3: that you guys do that. Do you sort of have

456
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 3: I guess, almost like rules for how you communicate what's

457
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 3: on the table, what's off the table, Like you know,

458
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 3: even something like you know, you guys swear a bit

459
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 3: on the podcast. Monique and I were talking, well do

460
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 3: we swear?

461
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 4: Is that okay?

462
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 3: Is that you know appropriate for our audience? So do

463
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 3: you guys have almost like a set of principles or

464
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 3: guidelines around how you communicate with each other.

465
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: That is a really interesting question, because I don't think

466
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: anybody has asked us that before. I think the thing

467
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 1: about Miss and I entering podcasting is that we started

468
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: the podcast Gosh two and a half years ago, and

469
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: at that time we were kind of throwing stuff at

470
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: a wall and seeing if it kind of stuck. If

471
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: that's the same, I think, and there wasn't much kind

472
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 1: of process around it at all. So I think over

473
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: the course of two and a half years, we've fallen

474
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: into a rhythm where we know what's on the table

475
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: and what's off the table, but not because we've had

476
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 1: a formal conversation about that, but because we fell into

477
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: that rhythm in doing it over two and a half years.

478
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 5: What do you reckon?

479
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 2: Miss, Yeah, I think so we've had conversations over the

480
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: years about the swearing thing, and to be honest, it's

481
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: probably more pragmatic than anything that we don't want. I

482
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: don't know. We don't want a mother of three to

483
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: put on the podcast and then have all these f

484
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: bombs drop around her kids, like that's not ideal. But

485
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: we also know that the average mother of three is

486
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 2: not the average listener of Shameless the average Shameless listener

487
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: is in their twenties and they're either single or in

488
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 2: a relationship, and the way we spear on the podcast

489
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: is probably how that millennial or gen zea speaks around

490
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 2: their friends. And for that reason we continue to swear.

491
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: It was a concern in the early days that maybe

492
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: advertisers wouldn't be keen on that, and that it would

493
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 2: be a struggle to turn this into a business. If

494
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: a podcast is littered with F words, then maybe a

495
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: big sponsor wouldn't want to come on board. Surprisingly, even

496
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: to me, it has never been an issue. Even with

497
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: some of the bigger, more professional brands. We have never

498
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: had someone come to us and say, can you please

499
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 2: stop saying the F word in every sentence?

500
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 4: That's encouraging.

501
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: I also was very curious around, you know, how deliberate

502
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 3: you are around choosing what to share, because you guys

503
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 3: have shared some really personal stuff, and also I imagine

504
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 3: you know are also sharing some really personal stuff in

505
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 3: your book that's coming out on September one. I think

506
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: is the release the space between So Michelle, for example,

507
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 3: you've spoken very openly about your issues and experiences around

508
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 3: anxiety and Ozari. You've spoken about your kind of journey

509
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: with Endo and a few other things as well, and

510
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: I want to know, like, how how do you guys

511
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 3: decide what you share? But then what is getting too

512
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: personal to share?

513
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 5: It's funny.

514
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: Mission and I are quite different in terms of maybe

515
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: not that different anymore, but maybe initially when we started

516
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: the show, we had pretty different personalities in terms of sharing,

517
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: Like I just was naturally not a huge sharer.

518
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 5: And we got to a point with.

519
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: The podcast and particularly with this book, where if we're

520
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 1: going to write a book about our twenties, then we're

521
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: going to have to share parts of our.

522
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 5: Own experience and in the same vein.

523
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: And if you're going to do a podcast based on

524
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: opinions about things, then people kind of have to know

525
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: where those opinions are coming from. So there has to

526
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: be some element of sharing there so they know who

527
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: you are and where this opinion is coming from. So

528
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: now it's a case of kind of I don't draw

529
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: like a set line, but I would very rarely pull

530
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: the people in my life into.

531
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 5: Stories, very very rarely.

532
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: It would have to be a very very good story

533
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: and a really important story for Miss and I. I

534
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: think we have these little things like these little special

535
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: moments of our lives that we always kind of keep

536
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: to ourselves.

537
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 5: But other than that, I actually don't.

538
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: Think there's that much we wouldn't eventually share. I just

539
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: would very rarely share something while I'm in the thick

540
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: of it. I think I always want to be able

541
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: to make sense of a scenario before I'm sharing it

542
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 1: with our audience, so that there's some sort of wisdom,

543
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: and also that I'm kind of comfortable and at peace

544
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: with what I'm sharing. So I think that would be

545
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: the line that I'm not sharing something right in the

546
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: thick of it.

547
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's been hugely important for both of us.

548
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: I think there's some stuff in this book that we

549
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: each write about separately that took us years to actually

550
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: process and seek therapy over raw confide in friends and

551
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: family about. And I think that process of being able

552
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: to look back on something with hindsight and being able

553
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 2: to find lessons from it has been really important for

554
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: us before we then take it publicly. I think sharing

555
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: something with our audience, we do it because we think

556
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: that hopefully it will help someone, that it will make

557
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: a woman feel seen or feel heard, and that's super important.

558
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: But I think at the crux of it, we as

559
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 2: individual humans need to work through that ourselves, and otherwise

560
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: we can't really tell the story in a helpful way

561
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: to anyone. So it's something that we're constantly evolving on

562
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: and learning more about it. I think when it comes

563
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: to the line of what should and shouldn't be shared

564
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: on the podcast, but as Zarah said, the main one

565
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: for us is if it involves people in our lives

566
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: and it's serious to them, like our siblings, our families,

567
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: our partners, then we do tend to stay clear. If

568
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: it's just about us, then we both feel pretty comfortable.

569
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of trust between ourselves

570
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: and our audience now that we know that it's a

571
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 2: safe space. Whether it's our listener sharing something, or a

572
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: podcast guest on a in conversation episode sharing something, or

573
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: it's us sharing something, I think hopefully everyone feels safe

574
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: to do so and knows that they'll be listened to

575
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: and yeah, be treated with compassion.

576
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 3: That's nice, And I like that idea of not sharing

577
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: something when you're in the thick of it, because I

578
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 3: imagine that there would be an impulse to do that

579
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 3: because it's so like it's so top of mind, but

580
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 3: then you know, being able to sort of have that

581
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 3: discipline about going okay, no, I need to reflect.

582
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 4: On this and draw my own insights. I like that.

583
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 3: I want to shift gears into social media because this

584
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: is a huge part of how you guys have created

585
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: such a huge community, like so so quickly, really just

586
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 3: in a couple of years. My consultancy Inventium does a

587
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: lot of work around helping people be more productive and

588
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 3: manage digital distractions. And a question I will semi regularly

589
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 3: get asked when we talk about helping people stay off

590
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 3: social media. You sol ask, well, what if it's.

591
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 4: Part of my job, Like, how do I stay off it?

592
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 4: So I want to know.

593
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: How do you manage your social media and do you

594
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: have any boundaries or rules in place around how you

595
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: do that?

596
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a massive one for us. So yeah,

597
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: we spend a whole bunch of time on social media

598
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: and it has always been that way since we launched

599
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: the podcast, because we know social media is the main

600
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: way that we connect with our audience and our listeners,

601
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: and so to have that relationship with them, which we

602
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: value so much, we have to be present. It was

603
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: a huge decision for Zara and I to actually delete

604
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: our Facebook group to archive it in It might have

605
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 2: been end of May, or it might have been beginning

606
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: of June this year. That was a group that was

607
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: kind of like the heartland for a time of Shameless,

608
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: that had more than forty thousand listeners in there.

609
00:29:58,800 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 4: It was.

610
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: Energized and chaotic and fun and a little bit mad sometimes,

611
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: and we loved it, We really truly did love it.

612
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: But it got to the point where we were two

613
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: women trying to police forty thousand women and that was

614
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: not doable. And of course we might be asleep for

615
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: seven hours a night, but a Facebook group with people

616
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: from all over the world never sleeps. And it got

617
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: to the point where we were so burnt out and

618
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 2: we were so at a loss as to how to

619
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: keep this Facebook group running that we just decided. We

620
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: turned to each other and said, we're so burnt out,

621
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: we're exhausted, and it's not doable. It's not doable to

622
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: have this Facebook group anymore. And I think getting rid

623
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: of that Facebook group, although it hurt at the time

624
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 2: and it was upsetting for the community, it was the

625
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: absolute best things are and I could have done for

626
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: our sanity and for our mental health and our work

627
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: life balance.

628
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were really struggling, not just the Facebook group,

629
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: but we were also struggling with the decision to close it.

630
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: Like we just we also couldn't keep people safe anymore

631
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: inside it. And I know that might sound like a

632
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: strange thing to say, but when you've got really political

633
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 1: conversations happening at all hours of the day, we don't

634
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: have the power to moderate that at all hours of

635
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: the day to the level that we want to. And

636
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: so giving up and kind of effectively deleting what is

637
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: a huge arm of your business is like an incredibly

638
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: difficult decision because it was, as Mitch said, it was

639
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: the heartland of Shameless, and it was kind of our

640
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: entire community coming together. But as she also said, it

641
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: was the best thing that we did, and we kind

642
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: of put all our energy into other forms of social media,

643
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: and we kind of channeled our energy. And I think

644
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: if my advice was to any one, it would be

645
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: work out kind of the things that are burning you out,

646
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: Because for us, the Facebook group was burning us out,

647
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: and we suddenly had all this extra energy to pour

648
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: into really productive forms of social media that could actually

649
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: grow our business, and for so long we were just

650
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: juggling so many things that we kind of couldn't We

651
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: couldn't see that we didn't have that clarity to say,

652
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: we will have far more energy and kind of far

653
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: better ideas if we delete this thing.

654
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it gave us like a zest for the

655
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: podcast back. I think because we had time to relax

656
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: and time to switch off. And I know it sounds hyperbolic,

657
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: but I truly don't think Cazara and I had the

658
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: ability to switch off for a year. Like the Facebook

659
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: group was the busiest on a Sunday, particularly a Sunday night,

660
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: so we had to be in there and watching it

661
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: like hawks in case someone said something offensive or someone

662
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: upset someone else. And yeah, I think now that we've

663
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: moved to a model where we focus a lot more

664
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: on Instagram and other forms of social media to be

665
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: really transparent about it. Yeah, we spent a lot of

666
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: time on them, but we're also twenty six year olds

667
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: who love social media anyway, So there is a part

668
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: of it to us that does not feel like work.

669
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: Like some of it's literally just finding funny memes or

670
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: creating funny content that we can share with people and

671
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: we get a lot of joy out of that.

672
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 3: That decision about the Facebook group I find fascinating. Do

673
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 3: you remember what went into making such a huge and

674
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 3: important decision?

675
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I think it was something that

676
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: we floated three months before we did it, And I

677
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: remember I was talking to Mish on the phone and

678
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: we had kind of come into some issues again. I mean,

679
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: I just I have these vivid memories of being like

680
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: of a Tuesday evening, sitting in front of Netflix, trying

681
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: to watch a series and realizing that my phone wasn't

682
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: next to me, and if my phone wasn't next to me,

683
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: then I couldn't see what was happening in the Facebook group.

684
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: And if I couldn't see what was happening in the

685
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: Facebook group, then things could be going wild. And we

686
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: were having this conversation about how we were constantly very

687
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: wired and very stressed, and I remember she said, have

688
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: you ever thought about getting.

689
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 5: Rid of it?

690
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: And I thought, no, I didn't know that this was

691
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: on the card.

692
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 5: I didn't I didn't think that this was an option.

693
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: And we said let's just sit with it, like, let's

694
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: not do anything rash, Let's sit with it for about

695
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: three months.

696
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 5: And see how we go.

697
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: And we spoke to a lot of people very close

698
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: to us, and I spoke to kind of my sister,

699
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: and I even mentioned it to my parents and my friends,

700
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: and I.

701
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 5: Was like, what do you think of this?

702
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: And they were like the minute we even floated it

703
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: as an idea, They're like, that's exactly what you need

704
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: to do.

705
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 5: That is exactly what you need to do.

706
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 1: But we sat on it for such a long time

707
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: to make sure it was the right call, because I

708
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: think once you do something like that, you can't really

709
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: go back.

710
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: Definitely. Do you remember what that felt like hitting the

711
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: delete button?

712
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 2: It was quite freeing, to be honest, the day that

713
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: we we archived the group, I actually got my head

714
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: on that morning. I remember walking into the hairdresser and

715
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: she looked at me and said, you just look like

716
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: you're carrying the weight of your world, the weight of

717
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 2: the world on your shoulders, And I'm like, it feels

718
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: so ridiculous, Like we're talking about a Facebook group, and

719
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 2: if you tell the average person that, they're like, oh

720
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: my god, get over it. But it truly was something

721
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: we stressed about, like we would get messages about this

722
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 2: group at two am in the morning on a Tuesday

723
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: or eleven pm on a Friday night. So it was

724
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: something that consumed us. By the end, it was just

725
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 2: incredibly freeing, and I think my love of work came

726
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: back almost instantaneously that I felt so much freer to,

727
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: I guess, switch off but then also create again, because

728
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: I create the best content when I'm not actively trying

729
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: to come up with ideas. Ideas come to me when

730
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 2: I switch off and I spend time with my boyfriend

731
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: or go for a walk or what have you. So

732
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: it was the best decision we could have made, not

733
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: just for our listeners and keeping them safe, but for

734
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: ourselves in I guess, keeping that flame of passion for

735
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: what we do lit.

736
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 4: I find that so inspiring.

737
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 3: Listening to what you guys did with the Facebook group,

738
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 3: I think it takes like a lot of guts. I mean,

739
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 3: that's a really significant size group to do and just

740
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: hearing what happened as a result of that, it reminds

741
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 3: me of one of my favorite books that I've.

742
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 4: Read around this area. I guess, of you.

743
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 3: Know, making decisions and how do you work out your priorities?

744
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: Is this book called Essentialism by Greg mceuw and I

745
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 3: think I've pronounced his surname correctly.

746
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 4: And it's all about, like, how do you work.

747
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: Out just what are the essential things that are going

748
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: to create the most value and.

749
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: Bring you the most joy in what you're doing.

750
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 5: Yes, I think it's that idea of value.

751
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: I really really do, because your mind can get quite

752
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: muddied when you're across a million different things all the time.

753
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: And for a long time there it was just Michelle

754
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: and I running a business, running social media, doing podcasts,

755
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: making podcasts for other people. We were writing a book

756
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: all at the same time. We were doing this, and

757
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: we nearly ruined our physical and mental health at the

758
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: same time, and we weren't giving people the best value.

759
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: Like I remember certain days we'd sit in front of

760
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 1: the mics ready to record. It might be a Sunday morning,

761
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: we were just like, how have we got to a

762
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: point where the best and most kind of important part

763
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: of our business, which is this record right now, is

764
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: kind of the thing that's getting the least energy because

765
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: we're so exhausted. And I think for us, just as

766
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: what you said, it's about what value are we giving

767
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: the listeners. We can't kind of reduce the quality of

768
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: this episode. This episode is the most important thing, so

769
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: we're going to have to kind of get rid of

770
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: some other stuff to make sure that this remains the

771
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: priority and it gets the energy it deserves.

772
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: I think as well, when you get to the point

773
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 2: that you have employees and you have people relying on you,

774
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: and we work with a lot of freelancers and a

775
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: lot of contractors, you have to have the difficult conversation

776
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: with yourself that what is worth my time and what

777
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: should I be investing my time into. Because people are

778
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: relying on me. Like I rely on Zara, she relies

779
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: on me. People rely on us. We can't continue to

780
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: have these illogical priorities anymore. And we had to kind

781
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: of invest in ourselves and make sure that we were

782
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: okay before anything else. Yeah, it was just it was

783
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: a very clarifying month. Actually, once we decided that we

784
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: were going to do it and we were working on

785
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: the messaging of how to close the group, it was

786
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: very clarifying. And to look back now, I can't believe

787
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: the way we were living and the way we were working,

788
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: because it wasn't good for anyone.

789
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: I'm curious as to how doing that has changed your

790
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 3: approach to evaluating how many projects you are taking on

791
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: at the one time. Like it reminds me of another

792
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: one of my favorite books. My favorite book on decision

793
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 3: making is this book called Decisive. Good name for a

794
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: book on decision making. I like that it was a

795
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: good Decision by Chip and Dan Heath, who are two

796
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: of my favorite writers. And one of the strategies they

797
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 3: talk about in this book is the idea when you

798
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: make a decision and you know you're not one hundred

799
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 3: percent sure if it's the right decision, is to put

800
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: in place what they call trip wires, so things that

801
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: you put, like even in your diary, to go, look

802
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: if this is happening at this point in time, then

803
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: review the decision, for example. And has that changed how

804
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 3: you review your priorities and review the projects that you're

805
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: deciding to commit to at any point in time. After

806
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 3: that experience with the Facebook group.

807
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: I think we'd actually started reviewing our priorities before that,

808
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: and that's probably why we kind of landed in that

809
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: conversation to start with. At the start of last year,

810
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: So at the start of twenty nineteen, when I had

811
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: quit my job and Michelle and I were working on

812
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: Shameless full time.

813
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 5: We had a lot.

814
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: Of opportunities come to us and we said yes to

815
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: every single one, and by about June, we were producing

816
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: four or five podcast episodes a week to one for

817
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: podcast called Sches on the Money that we produced the

818
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: first season for another was a bespoke podcast for Love, etc.

819
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: We were writing our book and running our social media

820
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: channels and we looked at each.

821
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 5: Other and we said, like, why did we do this

822
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 5: to ourselves?

823
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: But I think if we went back eighteen months, we'd

824
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: probably do the same thing again, because you just want

825
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: to say yes to everything. Right now, I still feel like,

826
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 1: and I'd love to say if Mischi Gras and me,

827
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: I still feel like we have a tendency.

828
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 5: It's a tiny part of us.

829
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: We keep doing that, like the most natural instinct is

830
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: for us to be like yes, yes, yes, yes yes,

831
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: and we have to actively pull ourselves back. But I

832
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: think having deleted the Facebook group and understanding that the

833
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: Shameless Monday Thursday episodes are our absolute priority has influenced

834
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: now how we make decisions a little bit, because we

835
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: always come back to that tea that is, is this

836
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: going to impact the quality of Monday and Thursday, and

837
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: if this is going to impact the quality and our

838
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: energy levels and our time management, then we're not going

839
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: to do it.

840
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think I must be the least woo

841
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: woo person in the world. And yet I think the

842
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: universe has had our back on a couple of occasions,

843
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 2: because even after that horrific June period where we were

844
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 2: so burnt out and so overworked last year, we then

845
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: in the following months proceeded to say yes to a

846
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: whole bunch of opportunities that at the time we're like, Okay,

847
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: well this will be great, like let's do this, And

848
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 2: if they had eventuated, we would have been in such

849
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: a heap, like we would have been at our absolute

850
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 2: lowest EBB if that at all eventuated, because we would

851
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: have just been run off our feet. I don't know

852
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: what's happened. We've been very, very lucky, and that things

853
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: we've kind of leapt towards and be like, oh my god,

854
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: what an incredible opportunity, let's do it. They fell through,

855
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: And now that I look back, I'm like, thank god

856
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: those things didn't happen. Otherwise I don't even know how

857
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: I'd be able to function right now. And I think

858
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: having those near misses has been very important for us

859
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: because now Zara and I are very clear on what

860
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: we think is worth our energy and what we want

861
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 2: to align with. And I think the Shameless brand is

862
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: something that is trusted by young women. That's something that

863
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: we take incredibly seriously, and we also know that media

864
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 2: brands can lose that trust so quickly. I think it's

865
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 2: been something that has kind of torched part of the

866
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 2: media industry here in Australia that there's not a huge

867
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: amount of trust in journalists or in particular publications. So

868
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: Zara and I now are very particular about what we

869
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: want to do, and we already have a lot of

870
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: work on our plate and we have an incredible team

871
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: around us getting that work done. But to kind of

872
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: bite off anything more, it has to make sense. And

873
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: I think we've kind of come up with this vernacular

874
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: to be like is it us? Like is it shameless?

875
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: Because if it's not shameless and it doesn't make sense,

876
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 2: then we're not going to touch it.

877
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 3: So I would imagine with that, like with the discipline

878
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 3: and not saying yes to everything means that you're saying

879
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 3: no to things every single day, I would imagine, Yeah,

880
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 3: what are your strategies for saying no and making it

881
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 3: easier to say no?

882
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 4: Because I think it's something that a lot of people

883
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 4: struggle with.

884
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: And I mean I've heard people say the best productivity

885
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: tip in the world just say no to lots of things.

886
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think we're perfect at it yet,

887
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: but I think we're getting better. And I think it's

888
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: having those examples of being like, is this that's another

889
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: example of that project that we said yes to that

890
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: we were so grateful that we that fell through? Because

891
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: if it's another example of that, then then we're good.

892
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: Let's just say no. We are saying not to stuff

893
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: every single day. And I think the best part about

894
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: the way we work, particularly at the moment, is we

895
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: make decisions very very quickly, because the minute I think

896
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: we're on the same page about something, it's almost always

897
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: the right call for us.

898
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 5: We make decisions really quickly, and we don't dwell. We

899
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 5: will never dwell.

900
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: I don't think we've ever looked back on anything we've

901
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: said no to and thought, damn, we should have done that.

902
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably the biggest tip in productivity too,

903
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: because dwelling can take up so much energy, Miish, what

904
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: do you think?

905
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 2: Well, one of our mentors, we had a coffee meeting

906
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 2: last year and one of our mentors said to us,

907
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: you need to write down your company values. You need

908
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 2: to have very clearly defined values that you both agree on.

909
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 2: And we went away from that meeting and this mentor

910
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 2: has been so great to us and so generous, and

911
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: we thought, okay, we have to do that, Like we

912
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: have to get these framed and put them up all

913
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: around our office and shamelessly, core value is content over money.

914
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: That the content has to be there, the idea has

915
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: to be there before any discussion of money comes into play.

916
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 2: And I think that's where some people tend to get

917
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: themselves into trouble that they see a figure and they go,

918
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: that's really great, Like maybe that could get me a

919
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: new car, or maybe I would feel a little bit

920
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: more comfortable financially right now if I had this paycheck

921
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: come through. But Fizara and I what we've learned, hopefully,

922
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: I think, is that if the idea isn't great, even

923
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: if the money is amazing, it will burn you in

924
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: the long run. And anything that we put our names

925
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: to it has to be something that we see longevity

926
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: in something that we think will work and entertain and

927
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: empower and educate our listeners. And if we don't think

928
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: it's going to do that, there is not a figure

929
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 2: big enough to make us leap at it. Because building

930
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: trust is the absolute most important thing to us. So

931
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: that content over money principle is something that we come

932
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 2: back to again and again and again, and then, to

933
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: be blunt, the value after that is just to work

934
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: with people that we genuinely like, Like when we come

935
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: across people who present us with ideas, we want to

936
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: be working with good people that we trust and that

937
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: we value. And I think that has also led us

938
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: in a really brilliant direction, and that I think we're

939
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: now surrounded by a team and by contractors and by

940
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: people at other companies like Bumble who we absolutely adore,

941
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 2: and we think we're all very much on the same page.

942
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 4: Yeah.

943
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: I think that's really interesting what you're saying around your

944
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 3: content over money and also making quick decisions. I've got

945
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 3: to say that really resonates something I think about a

946
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 3: lot for how I work is that every day I'll

947
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 3: get pitched to you by someone to get a guest

948
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 3: on the show, and often I can make a quick decision,

949
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: and I find that the quick decisions are the best decisions.

950
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 3: But sometimes I'll find that I'll sit on something and

951
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 3: if I end up going in the.

952
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 4: Yes direction, I often regret it.

953
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And then I also think, for me, what's

954
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 3: been quite a good rule of when I'm making decisions

955
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 3: about who to have on the show is do I care? Like,

956
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 3: am I interested in how this person or how these

957
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: people work? And I think I've got myself into trouble

958
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 3: where on a couple of occasions I've.

959
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 4: Gone, oh, yeah, I think I'll do it, and then

960
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 4: I'm in.

961
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: The research process for the episode and I'm like, I

962
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 3: just don't really care. So I can completely relate to that.

963
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: It's like that feeling of excitement, right, you need to

964
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 2: be excited by something. I think Zara and I very

965
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: heavily lean on that. If we're not excited by a

966
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: prospect or an opportunity, then it's probably just not right

967
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: for us.

968
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: Now. On the topic of research, when I was researching

969
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 3: for this interview Zarah, I read that you said in

970
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 3: response to a question that was something like, what have

971
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 3: you had to be honest with yourself about? And you

972
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: said that people will genuinely dislike what we do, and

973
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: I found that really interesting.

974
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 4: Could you expand on that.

975
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 5: I mean, very easily, mat No.

976
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: I mean we started this when we were twenty three, right,

977
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: and your ego is still very much in flux.

978
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 5: At twenty three.

979
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: You're sort of working out who you are, what you believe,

980
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: how confident you feel in yourself and your own abilities.

981
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: And for your job to accidentally become kind of public

982
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: and to build this audience as you're kind of building

983
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 1: your skills is a really intimidating thing. And suddenly some

984
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: of the feedback is going to be hard, absolutely, some

985
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: of it's going to be great, and some of it's

986
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: going to be hard, and some of it will be

987
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: personal too. And so for us, it's been an absolute

988
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: process of getting to a point where we cannot possibly

989
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: put out a show two times a week that every

990
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: single person in the country will like, because if we

991
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 1: pulled out a show that every single person liked, then

992
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: it would be boring and it wouldn't say anything.

993
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 5: It wouldn't exist, exactly, it wouldn't exist.

994
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: And it's such a sort of it's such an obvious

995
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: thing to reconcile and to reckon with. But it's the

996
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: idea that a good show will still be hated by

997
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: a lot of people, because if you're not putting out

998
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: a really I guess, passionate, decisive, opinionated show, then everybody

999
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: will like it or not even then actually true.

1000
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 5: So it's just been a.

1001
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: Time of process because we're still on the twenty six now,

1002
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: and I think you are still coming into your own

1003
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: and then for other opinions or external opinions to create

1004
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: noise around your work can be really, really intimidating. But

1005
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 1: I think we're at a point now where we're much

1006
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,959
Speaker 1: stronger for having done this job and much more sure

1007
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,959
Speaker 1: of ourselves in the content we want to put out.

1008
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we I think the way we measure successes

1009
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: changed it a little bit as the podcast has gotten bigger,

1010
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: in that we know that the types of things we

1011
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: talk about and the political leaning we take, which is

1012
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: left leaning, won't appeal to everyone. And that's okay. I'm

1013
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: not trying to appeal to every single person who come

1014
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: across an episode. I'm trying to appeal to the women

1015
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: who are like my sisters and my friends and me,

1016
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 2: And so as long as we feel like we're doing

1017
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: a good job by young women, then that's what we

1018
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: care the most about, and they're the people we really

1019
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: look to when the feedback does come. If we're kind

1020
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: of veering off our team, we're not doing our job

1021
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: by young women, then we will absolutely listen to it.

1022
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: But as far as what I don't know, maybe an

1023
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: older man in his fifties thinks of Shameless, I'm not

1024
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: particularly concerned. Like he can have his opinions. I probably

1025
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 2: don't enjoy the radio shows or the podcast that he loves.

1026
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: So it's been a big lesson that you're not going

1027
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: to be liked by everyone, particularly when you say political

1028
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 2: divisive things. And that's more than okay.

1029
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: I remember calling a mentor when miss and I were

1030
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: kind of like in the middle of a bit of

1031
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: a crisis about what Shameless was, and you know, how

1032
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: do we deal with all this feedback? And we called

1033
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: him and we said, we're struggling with feedback. Some people

1034
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: don't like the show. And he had said, yeah, like,

1035
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 1: is that it? And I was like, yeah, that's it.

1036
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: And I was like, he was like, of course this

1037
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: is going to happen. That's the most obvious thing to

1038
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: me in the world. And He's like, keep doing what

1039
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: you're doing, put your head down and do the work,

1040
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: and some people won't like it, and I don't care

1041
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: about that. And his kind of complete confusion as to

1042
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: why we thought this was a big deal was kind

1043
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: of very clarifying for us because we were like, oh,

1044
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: he's worked with some of the biggest duos and some

1045
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: of the biggest shows in the country, and if he's

1046
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: surprised that we're feeling like this, then maybe it's an

1047
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: actual thing that everybody has to deal with.

1048
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 3: I love that piece of advice. I'm going to take

1049
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: that on board for myself as well. Now I have

1050
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 3: a couple of final questions, because we're nearly at a time.

1051
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 3: I want to know, podcasts, what are you guys both

1052
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: consuming and loving at the moment?

1053
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I mean it changes every week. The

1054
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: standout podcast for me in twenty twenty is Dying for Sex,

1055
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: which is a story between two best friends, one of

1056
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: them is dying with terminal cancer and kind of it

1057
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: explores abuse, but it also explores female sexual expression and

1058
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: it's incredibly life affirming and it's probably one of the

1059
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: best podcast series I've ever listened to. It's one that

1060
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 2: I've continually come back to throughout the year that I

1061
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: think is just so brilliant. Zara, on the other hand,

1062
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: is more high brow than I am and absolutely loves

1063
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 2: The Daily.

1064
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I'm not more high ro than you

1065
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: at all, but I love I think for me when

1066
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: I consue my news, I'm starting to consume it more

1067
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: and more through podcasts, so I am a religious listener

1068
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: of The Daily and this American life.

1069
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 5: I love Desert Island Discs.

1070
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: I find a lot of comfort in that podcast, I

1071
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: think because I've listen.

1072
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 5: To it for such a long time.

1073
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: If I'm feeling a bit lost or stressed or overwhelmed,

1074
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: I always find myself gravitating to an old episode of

1075
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: Desert Island Discs. I love long Form, I think because

1076
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 1: miss and I long Form's brilliant writers at heart. I

1077
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: love hearing how other writers write and what their process

1078
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: is and their careers. And another good one, I get

1079
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I really love, I

1080
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: really love that podcast.

1081
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 3: Awesome, that's a great list. I think we have some

1082
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 3: crossover in our taste there.

1083
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:15,439
Speaker 4: Now.

1084
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: My final question is how can people consume more of

1085
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 3: what you're doing and get their hands on a copy

1086
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 3: of the space between as well.

1087
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: Well, it depends where you live. If you're in Melbourne,

1088
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: I'm guessing the best way to go about it is online,

1089
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: probably through Pootopia or I know that we're going to

1090
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: be on audible. We're doing an audiobook ebook the whole thing,

1091
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: So online bookstores. What else is area? On social media?

1092
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, we're at Shameless Podcast on social media,

1093
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: and I guess that's the centerpiece of kind of where

1094
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: everything is. So if you want to come to there,

1095
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: I can say, Hi, that's where we usually are. But yeah,

1096
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: as you say, if you're in Melbourne, don't go out

1097
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 1: to a book store.

1098
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 5: I don't think they'll be open at the moment.

1099
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you like book in general, join our

1100
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: book club. We have a Facebook group. I mean, we

1101
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: spoke so much about deleting our Facebook group we had two.

1102
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: We failed to mention that we've got another Facebook group

1103
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 2: that has twenty six thousand people in it. That's our

1104
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 2: book club. But it's a much easier, more gentle place

1105
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 2: to moderate than the original Shameless Facebook group. So Shameless

1106
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 2: Podcast book Club on Facebook.

1107
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 3: If you love reading, Michelle Zara, I've loved having you

1108
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 3: guys on the show. Fascinating to hear about how one

1109
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 3: of the most popular podcasts in Australia is made and

1110
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 3: just about how you guys do it all. It's just

1111
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 3: so impressive. I can't believe you're twenty six. Surely you're lying.

1112
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I am Zara. You're still

1113
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 2: the juries out on you.

1114
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 5: I'm going to say, I can I expect for myself here.

1115
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, guys, Thank you. That is it for

1116
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 4: today's show.

1117
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with

1118
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 3: someone else that you think would all also like it

1119
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: and get something from it. And if you're feeling in

1120
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 3: the mood, maybe leave a review for how I work

1121
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 3: in Apple Podcasts. I'm super grateful for the hundreds of

1122
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 3: people that have done just that. So that's ittport today

1123
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 3: and I will see you next time.