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Speaker 1: Well, every Wednesday on the Happy Families podcast, I have

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Speaker 1: a conversation with somebody who has something to contribute to

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Speaker 1: the way you're bringing up your kids, a way to

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Speaker 1: make your family happier, a way to tap into the

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Speaker 1: very best in you and help you to see the

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Speaker 1: very best in your children. Today's guest is no exception.

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Speaker 1: I'm really super excited to be able to spend some

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Speaker 1: time talking today with doctor Arna Rubinstein. Now, the conversation

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Speaker 1: that we're going to have is actually part of the

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Speaker 1: Bringing Up Boys' Summit, and we had a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of experts from around the world join us for conversations

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Speaker 1: about what it is to bring up boys. But I

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Speaker 1: think that you'll find that this content is useful not

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Speaker 1: just for parents of boys, but for parents generally. My

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Speaker 1: sense is that hearing what doctor Arna Rubinstein has to

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Speaker 1: say will make a big difference in the way that

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Speaker 1: you engage with your family. Stay with us. Doctor Anna

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Speaker 1: is the CEO and founder of the Rights of Passage Institute.

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Speaker 1: He has over thirty years experience as a medical doctor, counselor, mentor,

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Speaker 1: a speaker, and a workshop facilitator. The programs, the seminars

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Speaker 1: and the camps that he's helped to develop have been

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Speaker 1: attended by more than three hundred and fifty thousand people globally,

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Speaker 1: while some of the largest schools in Australia have implemented

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Speaker 1: his framework in wonderful ways. His programs are designed to

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Speaker 1: support boys and girls to successfully transition healthy, safely into adulthood.

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Speaker 1: His goal is to make rights of passage mainstream once again.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Arna Rubinstein is the proud father of two wonderful

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Speaker 1: young men and a mentor to many others, and he

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Speaker 1: joined me for this discussion about why boys seem to

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Speaker 1: be natural risk takers.

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Speaker 2: There's a reason for it. And when I studied rights

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Speaker 2: and passage all over the world, what I discovered that extraordinarily,

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Speaker 2: despite the fact that they've never met each other, they

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Speaker 2: all did the same thing. So they all reckon. They

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Speaker 2: all did at the same age sort of when the

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Speaker 2: boys were hitting puberty, and they would always be taken away.

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Speaker 2: And then there would be four elements that always happened.

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Speaker 2: The first is that the boys get to hear the

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Speaker 2: stories of the elders. They get to hear the men

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Speaker 2: talking about their lives and the big things that had

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Speaker 2: impact in their lives. And that's how they actually received

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Speaker 2: wisdom and knowledge, not by being told how to live

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Speaker 2: their lives and what to do, but by actually hearing

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Speaker 2: the stories. So stories were an incredibly important part of

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Speaker 2: ruts of passage. That was the first element. The second

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Speaker 2: element is there's always a challenge, and there was always

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Speaker 2: a challenge that pushed a boy to his edge. And

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Speaker 2: actually it did a couple of things. It actually made

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Speaker 2: him face his own mortality and fear, and it humbled him.

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Speaker 2: It humbled him, which is very interesting because if this

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Speaker 2: is anate need inside a boy, and if we don't

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Speaker 2: create it for him, he will go and do it himself.

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Speaker 2: He will push himself to a point where his mortality

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Speaker 2: is challenged, and if there's no supervision, the danger is

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Speaker 2: that he'll actually kill himself or badly injure himself, which

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Speaker 2: you know, I know, I did emergency man, I did retrieval,

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Speaker 2: medicine and order. All the young men even make it

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Speaker 2: to the hospital. And so I actually believe that every

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Speaker 2: boy is going to go through a rite of passage.

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Speaker 2: The question is are they going to create their own

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Speaker 2: or which you know, we hope is not too disastrous,

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Speaker 2: or we're going to create something for them which is

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Speaker 2: actually appropriate. So and then the other thing is if

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Speaker 2: the humbling doesn't occur, then they end up arrogant and entitled.

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Speaker 2: And you know how many young men do we know

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Speaker 2: out there who are arrogant and entitled and think the

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Speaker 2: world is there for them and their role is to

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Speaker 2: take as much as they can. So that was the

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Speaker 2: set the first element story. The second element, there's always

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Speaker 2: a challenge. The third element is creating a vision for

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Speaker 2: how you want to be in the future. What sort

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Speaker 2: of man do you want to be, what's your role,

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Speaker 2: you know, how do you want to be in the community.

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Speaker 2: And included in that vision is what are the from

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Speaker 2: your childhood that you need to let go of if

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Speaker 2: you're going to become that man. And then the fourth

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Speaker 2: element I call it an honoring or a recognition of spirit,

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Speaker 2: and it's based on this idea that every boy is different,

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Speaker 2: and every boy is born with their own unique gifts

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Speaker 2: and talents, their own genius and spirit. And one of

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Speaker 2: the key things of a rite of passage is to

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Speaker 2: recognize and bring out those gifts, bring out that talent,

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Speaker 2: bring out that spirit. And they were things that were

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Speaker 2: done and so our challenge them to make that appropriate

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Speaker 2: for today because we don't live in you know, the

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Speaker 2: jungles of Africa or Papua New Guinea two one hundred

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Speaker 2: years ago, the deserts of Australia. It's whatever we do

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Speaker 2: has to be appropriate for now, and I can talk

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Speaker 2: about that. But if we don't do those things, we

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Speaker 2: don't create a rite of passage. The danger is the

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Speaker 2: boys do not evolve and end up becoming physically out

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Speaker 2: up men, but still with the psyche the behavior boy,

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Speaker 2: which is a disaster. So in your book The Making

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Speaker 2: of Men, you actually talk about a world that runs

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Speaker 2: on boy psychology? Correct? Can you just maybe?

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Speaker 1: Because I definitely want to get to these solutions and

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Speaker 1: these ideas about what we can do it, because we're

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Speaker 1: not going to send our kids out to hunt a

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Speaker 1: wildline in the forest just down the street here, What

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Speaker 1: does the world running on boy psychology look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So when I was doing the work, someone said, well,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to talk about boys to men, you

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Speaker 2: have to be able to define the difference. I wrote

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Speaker 2: a model boyscology, healthy man psychology, and boy psychology is

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Speaker 2: what we typically see in a six to eight year

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Speaker 2: old boy. I'm the center of the universe. It's all

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Speaker 2: about me, all about me, me, me. I want constant acknowledgment.

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Speaker 2: I can't handle my emotions if something goes wrong, I

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Speaker 2: have a temper tantrum. I want as much power as possible.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to live forever. I can never be wrong,

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Speaker 2: never wrong. And I want a mother. I want a

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Speaker 2: mother to be my surch to do everything for me,

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Speaker 2: to tell me how wonderful I am. To just be

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Speaker 2: on call twenty four to seven. Now, that's fine in

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Speaker 2: a six to eight year old, But if you imagine

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Speaker 2: a man, like a global leader, or a head of

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Speaker 2: community or ahead of a family, who still thinks he's

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Speaker 2: the center of the universe, still thinks it's all about himself,

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Speaker 2: wants as much power as possible, can never be wrong.

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Speaker 2: When he doesn't get what he wants, he has a

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Speaker 2: temper tantrum and wants a mother instead of a relationship.

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Speaker 2: That's a major problem. And I can think we live

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Speaker 2: in a world that's run by boys.

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Speaker 1: I was about to say, isn't it great that all

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Speaker 1: of the men who run various countries in our who

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Speaker 1: I have done. Isn't it wonderful that they've actually matured from

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Speaker 1: that voice like that's right.

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Speaker 2: We don't. Yeah, you know it's but it's a serious

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Speaker 2: issue when those men can push buttons that change the

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Speaker 2: lives of hundreds of thousands or millions of people, or

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Speaker 2: make decisions, you know, do we want those decisions to

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Speaker 2: be that for the best of the people or for

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Speaker 2: the best of that person. And so healthy man psychology

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Speaker 2: is I'm not the center of the universe. I'm part

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Speaker 2: of a community, and power is not just for me.

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Speaker 2: Power is so I can do more good in my community.

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Speaker 2: And if something doesn't work, I don't have a temper tantrum.

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Speaker 2: That's actually domestic violence. I have to be able to

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Speaker 2: stand with my emotions. And I'm not going to live forever.

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Speaker 2: One day I'm going to die. And I'm not always right.

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Speaker 2: I make mistakes. When I do make mistakes, I have

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Speaker 2: to be accountable. And finally, I'm not looking for a mother.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for genuine relationship. And when I give my talk,

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Speaker 2: which I do all around pain around the world, and

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Speaker 2: I talk about this model, and I say, do any

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Speaker 2: of the women in the audience know any men who

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Speaker 2: still think that the center of the universe want power, acknowledgement,

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Speaker 2: can't stand their emotions are never wrong and want a mother,

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Speaker 2: and you see the women and they sort of think

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Speaker 2: and they look at their husband and they look back,

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Speaker 2: and then there's this sort of this awkward shuffle, and

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Speaker 2: you know, we know exactly what I'm talking about here,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually not okay. And all the stuff we're

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Speaker 2: seeing in the me Too movement and toxic masculinity and

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Speaker 2: the patriarchy, and that's all inappropriate boy behavior from men,

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Speaker 2: and it's just it's not okay. It's completely not okay.

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Speaker 2: And a big part of it is because we don't

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Speaker 2: have the rights of passage to create this shift from

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Speaker 2: boy to men.

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Speaker 1: You can't start raising a teenager once it becomes a

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Speaker 1: teen We shouldn't necessarily say that we can still do

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Speaker 1: some good, right, it's never actually too late. But we've

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Speaker 1: got parents of boys from eight to eighteen who are

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Speaker 1: watching as many of them are actually watching it with

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Speaker 1: their boys. In the book, you've got quite a lot

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Speaker 1: in chapter five about how you can't start raising a

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Speaker 1: teenager once it becomes one. So we need to We

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Speaker 1: need to start pairing young boys the right way to

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Speaker 1: transition them effectively from that boy psychology into what it

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Speaker 1: is to be a man.

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Speaker 2: Where do we start?

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Speaker 1: How does this does this happen? Because, by the way,

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Speaker 1: you're not sending eight year olds out for these rights

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Speaker 1: of passages opportunities as they're moving through with their adolescens.

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Speaker 2: Now, look, that's completely true, and it is one of

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Speaker 2: my saying you can't start raising you know, teenage once

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Speaker 2: they become a teener. So it does come down to parenting.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things I've discovered, despite the fact

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Speaker 2: that my main interest has been right to passage, is

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Speaker 2: there is a parenting issue and many many parents feel

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Speaker 2: very lost and feel like they don't have a basic

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Speaker 2: sort of God book and they want to be the

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Speaker 2: best parents they can, but hard because they're so busy,

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Speaker 2: their children are so busy. There's so much technology available

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Speaker 2: every moment, and there's not a lot of I have

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Speaker 2: found a lot of great guidance. So even though I

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Speaker 2: do not want to be a parenting expert, I have

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Speaker 2: found myself drawn into that sort of area. And we

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Speaker 2: developed a model and I can give you the link

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Speaker 2: to send it up if that's okay. On the thing

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Speaker 2: great and we talk about seven strategies for building healthy

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Speaker 2: relationships with our sons. And the first and it's quite basic,

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Speaker 2: but our experience has been that parents love this knowledge.

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Speaker 2: And the first is finding something that you both enjoy

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Speaker 2: doing together, turning off your mobile phone and doing it regularly.

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Speaker 2: And this is for dads and mums. And it might

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Speaker 2: be walking the dog, it might be going fishing, it

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Speaker 2: might be listening to music, it might be having a

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Speaker 2: cup of tea in the day, whatever it is. But

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Speaker 2: first of all, if you're going to have a relationship

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Speaker 2: with someone, you have to have time with them. And

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Speaker 2: extraordinarily I find a lot of especially dads, just never

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Speaker 2: have one on one time with their children. That's the

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Speaker 2: first one. I'll just name a few of them. The

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Speaker 2: second is practicing acknowledging what they do well, so you

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Speaker 2: know if you see them do something well, or their

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Speaker 2: gifts or whatever you actually name it. It's very easy

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Speaker 2: for parents just to tell their kids what they're doing wrong.

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Speaker 2: And once again especially dads, but it is a very

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Speaker 2: good name of things they do well. Teaching skills of reflection,

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Speaker 2: so when something happens, ask your child what they think

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Speaker 2: about it first, rather than just giving them the lesson

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Speaker 2: and saying if they have a problem getting them they

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Speaker 2: can come up with a possible solution or some ideas

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Speaker 2: and then working with them on that. And then the

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Speaker 2: last one I'll mention is that when something goes wrong,

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Speaker 2: when they do something wrong which will happen at some

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Speaker 2: stage separating the person from the behave so you know,

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Speaker 2: some I still love you, but you know, burning down

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Speaker 2: the house was not a k or you know, hitting

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Speaker 2: hitting your sisters not okay. We've got to talk about that,

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Speaker 2: you know, Or if they don't do well at school,

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Speaker 2: rather than shaming them, saying, hey, what's going on? You know,

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Speaker 2: because one of the things we know with boys is

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Speaker 2: when they act out often that actually means they've got

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Speaker 2: a problem going on. So their way of expressing the

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Speaker 2: problem is actually acting out. So those sorts of things,

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Speaker 2: and we have like a wheel where we have all

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Speaker 2: those things and parents can give themselves a mark out

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Speaker 2: of ten in each of those areas and then join

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Speaker 2: the dots, and you know, it's a simple thing. And

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Speaker 2: the final one, actually I will mention is sharing stories

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Speaker 2: about when you were their age, including what went well

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Speaker 2: and what didn't go well, and those sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: It's just about building out strong, healthy relationship. Actually there

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Speaker 2: is one more which I do need to mention keep

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Speaker 2: going connecting privileges with responsibility. I can't not name that

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Speaker 2: because when we just give our boys everything regardless of

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Speaker 2: how they behave, regardless of how they are, and they

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Speaker 2: become entitled, that's a problem. And from quite an early age, yes,

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Speaker 2: we give them things, but if there's an agreement, like

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Speaker 2: you know, you'll take your dishes into the kitchen, or

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Speaker 2: you'll tidy your room, or you'll you know, be home

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Speaker 2: when you say you're going to be home, and the

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Speaker 2: privileges come together with that, that's a very important lesson

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Speaker 2: because if we don't teach it to young as teenagers,

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Speaker 2: when they're you know, six inches taller than us and

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Speaker 2: big and strong and grumpy, that's not the time to

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Speaker 2: be trying to sort of put in the boundaries. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: I get a lot of phone calls from pants who say,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened to my twelve thirteen year

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Speaker 2: old son overnight. They won't talk to me, they won't

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Speaker 2: cuddle me. They just go in their room and lock

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Speaker 2: the door, you know, and there's a war going on

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Speaker 2: in the house. So, you know, I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot we can do around our sort of early stage parenting.

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Speaker 1: Throughout those ideas you've just shared, you've used dads and

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Speaker 1: the importance of his role multiple times. Can you just

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about I mean, you've talked about

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Speaker 1: rights of passage and the elders, the men go away,

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Speaker 1: the elders spend time talking with the youngsters, and once

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Speaker 1: again you've brought you brought the dads in the male

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Speaker 1: role model. Yes, there's two parts to this question, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not supposed to ask two questions at once, but

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Speaker 1: they flow together. The first that can you just talk

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Speaker 1: about why dads are so important? But the follow up

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Speaker 1: is there's going to be a whole bunch of single

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Speaker 1: mums who are watching this. There's going to be a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of families where dad is either not safe

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Speaker 1: or not present, or for whatever reason, wants to be

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Speaker 1: but maybe even can't be. We want to give dads

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Speaker 1: a benefit of dad as often as we can as well.

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Speaker 1: What are parents do in that situation?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, yes, thank you for bringing that up. Equally

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Speaker 2: important dads and mums for sure, But the thing that

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Speaker 2: we often find is that mums are so much more present.

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Speaker 2: And these are generalizations, but you know, very often the

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Speaker 2: mums have, you know, so much more to do, especially

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Speaker 2: in the early years with boys, and and we do

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Speaker 2: have a lot of single moms who are trying to

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Speaker 2: be mum and dad, which is very difficult. And one

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Speaker 2: of our big recommendations there is to bring for the mums,

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Speaker 2: to bring other meaning, whether it's uncles, friends, grandfathers, are

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Speaker 2: brilliant to bring that influence in. And what I also

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Speaker 2: say to mums, there's new really key things here, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, not to put up with inappropriate behavior from

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Speaker 2: your boys. They've got to learn early that swearing at you,

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Speaker 2: trying to hit you, you know, any of that stuff

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Speaker 2: is just not okay, and they need to learn that

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Speaker 2: while they're with you in the house. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a tricky one because you're right, something like a third

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Speaker 2: of boys are now being brought up by single mums

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Speaker 2: and not having contact with their fathers. So anything we

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Speaker 2: can do to support mums is really important. And I've

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Speaker 2: actually got a captor about that in my book. So

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Speaker 2: and those same principles with the mums are finding something

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Speaker 2: you can do with your son one on one, sharing stories,

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Speaker 2: separating the person from the behavior. All of those things

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Speaker 2: are as important as well as doing whatever you can

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Speaker 2: to have good men in the life of your boys.

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Speaker 2: And we look at it as a community thing. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I say, dads whenever I work with them,

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Speaker 2: you know, keep an eye out not only on your boy,

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Speaker 2: but all the boy. The ideas are sort of trying

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Speaker 2: to create an umbrella where the whole community is looking

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Speaker 2: after all the children. And that's part of our work

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Speaker 2: that we do in schools is trying to create community

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Speaker 2: so that those who are on their own actually do

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Speaker 2: have support.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like more of that conversation, you can find

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Speaker 1: it in the Bringing Up Boys Summit. It's available in

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families webshop. That's doctor Arna Rubenstein. Arna Rubinstein

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Speaker 1: is from the Rights of Passage Institute. You can find

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Speaker 1: him at Rightsofpassage Institute dot org. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. If you'd

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Speaker 1: like more information about making your family happier, you can

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Speaker 1: find it all at Happy Families dot com dot au,

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Speaker 1: including the Bringing Up Boys Summer