1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast with doctor Justin Coilson, where 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Luke and Suzie parents of three little boys, and this 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: is the podcast for those of us who are time 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: poor parents, but just one answers. 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: Now, doctor Dustin Pilson's joining us in the studio and 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: as we look at this story that came out from 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 2: sixty minutes, we're talking about teenagers addiction to computers, that 8 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: it is the games and it's keeping them from school, 9 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: and parents just don't know what to do. There's two 10 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: issues I see here significantly, One of course, is the 11 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 2: addiction of these children, and the other is the parenting 12 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: in this situation, and that has been torn to shreds 13 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: in the midst of this. 14 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 3: It's been violent and viitriol. It's been awful. I think. 15 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 4: Look, regardless of whether we agree with what other parents 16 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 4: are doing, we are not in the situation. We don't 17 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 4: know what's going on, and it's so important that we 18 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 4: have some compassion for parents who are struggling. Not every 19 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 4: parent is equipped, not every parent has the knowledge that 20 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 4: you and I might have, or you know, we could 21 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 4: be so much kinder and so much more supportive parents 22 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 4: who are struggling. And the awful things that have happened 23 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 4: to this mum, in particular from sixty minutes. You know, parents, 24 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: I understand why people would say, come on, be the parent, 25 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 4: but you know, looking at the story and looking at 26 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 4: most of the families where these kinds of challenges occur, 27 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 4: there's usually other things going on, you know, And it's 28 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 4: so easy from a distance for us to stand back 29 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 4: and say, oh, come on, people, but I just think 30 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 4: we need to be a little kind or a little more compassionate. 31 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: Well you think judgment and harsh words are not going 32 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 2: to help her? 33 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, that's not the kind of thing 34 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 4: that's going to make her turn around and say, well, 35 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 4: I've been told off by everyone and now I'm going 36 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 4: to bet. 37 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 3: It doesn't seem to work. 38 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: Now, is it a case where we're almost the harsher 39 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: words are best served for those who are only going 40 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: to get a little bit wrong in a sense like 41 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: because you can be shaken into making a couple of 42 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: simple decisions different. But as you say, there's more going 43 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: on here probably, So therefore it's a big step from 44 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: from where they are to getting it right. So there's 45 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: no points sgreaming about the end result. Let's take little 46 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: steps along the way. 47 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 4: I have a friend who says, the only people who 48 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 4: should judge those who know everything and love perfectly. 49 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: That rules most of us out, So me except the 50 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: look and so again. 51 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 4: You know, we don't know what mental health challenges are 52 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 4: going on in anyone's family, or what kind of economic pressures, 53 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 4: what kind of. 54 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: You know, the children may have some learning challenge. I mean, 55 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 3: any of these things could be going on. We just 56 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 3: don't know. It's better to not judge. 57 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 4: It's better to be compassionate and sympathetic and offer our 58 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 4: support rather than tearing people down and thinking we're better because, 59 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 4: by Gollie, our kids are going to embarrass us one 60 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 4: day too. 61 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: It's almost guaranteed. 62 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: Are we able to talk solutions for Yeah, I think. 63 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 4: That's I think that's probably where we're best off focusing, 64 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 4: you know, what the parents do. 65 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 3: At the risk of sounding a little bit harsh, it's. 66 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 4: Worth reminding parents that under normal circumstances we do need 67 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 4: to actually set limits. Kids won't get addicted if we 68 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 4: set effective limits from the beginning. What often happens, though, 69 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 4: is the story about the camel in the desert that 70 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 4: wanted to get into the tent because of the sandstorm, 71 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 4: and it said to its owner, you know, the sand 72 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 4: is blowing so much out here, just I can't breathe. 73 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 4: Can I just put my nose in the tent so 74 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: I can breathe? And the owner says, well, only your nose, 75 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 4: And then he says, but the sand's biting my eyes. Now, 76 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 4: Can I just put my whole head in so that, 77 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: you know, my head feels okay? And then the camel 78 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: complains about its body And next thing you know, the 79 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 4: camel is in the tent and the owner has no 80 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 4: space and ends up getting out of the tent because 81 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 4: how do you move the camel out of the tent. 82 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 4: And it's the same sort of thing with our kids 83 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 4: and their device usage. If we don't set effective limits 84 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 4: early on, and if we don't talk through useful screen 85 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 4: time processes early on, it gets much harder once they're bigger, 86 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 4: once they're you know, I mean, in the sixty minute story, 87 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 4: we've got a child who's being physically violent towards his 88 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 4: mother when she says no. 89 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: You're talking about setting boundaries from the start, which is great, 90 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: but many of us are probably past that point. 91 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 4: Well, not just that, but our boundaries work while we 92 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 4: have the capacity to, I guess, enforce those boundaries. The 93 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 4: interesting thing about the story on sixty minutes was this 94 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 4: mum says, you know, he becomes aggressive. 95 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 3: We've had to call the police. 96 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 4: I've been headbutted, I've had concussions. He is bigger than me. 97 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 4: And so there does come a time and every parent 98 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 4: experience is it somewhere around fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, maybe seventeen 99 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 4: at the latest, where children, if they really do want 100 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: to rebel, they just will and parents do feel helpless. 101 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: And that's kind of when I turn around. 102 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 4: I say to these people saying, just be the parent, 103 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: just you know, have sanctions or whatever it is. 104 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: It's kind of like, well, have you ever been in 105 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 3: that situation? 106 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 4: Because I've dealt with hundreds of families who have been 107 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 4: in that situation, and when they try to enforce sanctions, 108 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 4: the kids run away, or the kids destroy things, or 109 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 4: things get really really horrible. Now, now hopefully that doesn't 110 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 4: happen in most times, but it happens in enough for 111 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 4: me to know that just going all. 112 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 3: Hardcore on the kids is not going to fix things up. 113 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 4: Got to point out as well, I've just run a 114 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 4: survey with just under four hundred Australian kids, and the 115 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 4: research that I've done is consistent with a whole bunch 116 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 4: of other research from around the world. The more time 117 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 4: kids spend online, the more there will being drops. Yeah, right, 118 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 4: so we again, we've got to set these limits earlier. 119 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 4: We've got to have these conversations with our children from 120 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 4: the start. 121 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: So what if we need to hit the What if 122 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: I didn't understand any of that drops? 123 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're well being Sorry, mate, they're. 124 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: Being drops if that's a name of something they're doing. Okay, cool. 125 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: So if sanctions don't work and you're pass the point 126 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: of it being early on setting limits, what can you do? 127 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 4: The only thing that you can do is talk. Well, actually, 128 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 4: there's a couple of things you can do. Let's start 129 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 4: with talking. I think talking is still the best solution here. 130 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 4: When we're not in the moment. I mean, trying to 131 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 4: have any sort of a disciplinary conversation with anybody, child 132 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 4: or adult when you're in the emotion of the moment 133 00:05:58,920 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 4: is going. 134 00:05:59,200 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: To be ineffective. 135 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 4: You don't say to your kids, I'm sick of this 136 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 4: Fortnite problem, I'm sick of this Snapchat Instagram problem. 137 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 3: Get off now. That's it. I've had enough. Let's have 138 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 3: a conversation about this. Now. That just doesn't work. So 139 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 3: we need to make sure that everyone's calm. 140 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 4: Go somewhere public, sit down with a pen and paper 141 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 4: and say, we need to talk about this. 142 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: What are you noticing? And involve the kids, get their input. 143 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 4: What are you finding, what are you feeling? Why is 144 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 4: this happening? Let's discuss this. We want to explain and 145 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 4: explore and power. I talk about it with you guys 146 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: all the time. It's the best discipline strategy there is. 147 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 4: Explain our point of view, explore theirs, empower them. What 148 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 4: do we do from here? How do we come up 149 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 4: with a solution? But get really clear as well that 150 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 4: now that we've come to an agreement, if this agreement 151 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 4: is not held by you, what's going to happen. So 152 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 4: there has to be a level of agreement that the 153 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 4: gaming console will be put away, or the Wi Fi 154 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 4: will be turned off at night and hidden in the safe. 155 00:06:58,440 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: You know, we've got to come up with. 156 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 4: Appropriate limits because the reality is that these games have 157 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 4: been designed to hook our kids, and they do. 158 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: So that's the tricky thing, is you go, that's exactly 159 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: what they're achieving, in that case the extreme, but they're 160 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: achieving their actual outcome desired by the designers. 161 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: Isn't it. 162 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 4: It seems like a moral vacuum. The more successful we are, 163 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 4: the more your well being will suffer. 164 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that makes us exciting about the world justin 165 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: But that's what these people are doing, right, That's exactly 166 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do. 167 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 4: The games are designed to grab our attention, or our 168 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 4: kids attention, and keep it. So. Our job as parents 169 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 4: is pretty simple. We've got to keep our relationship strong. 170 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 4: The more we focus on being angry, the more we 171 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 4: focus on sanctions, the more we focus on punishment, the 172 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 4: more we rupture the relationship, ignore the reasons that are 173 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 4: underlying the behavior in the first place, and create increased 174 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 4: friction and selfishness our children. Our best bed is to 175 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 4: have conversations at peaceful times, with no devices around, when 176 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 4: everybody's calm. Maybe we're buying them a hot chocolate, buying 177 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 4: them a nice breakfast at a favorite cafe down the road. 178 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: These conversations always happen best in the mornings. By the way, 179 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 4: there's this thing that psychologists have discovered called morning morality. 180 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 4: When we wake up in the morning. We're just much 181 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: more moral than we are by the time we're hungry 182 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 4: and tired and it's late in the day. Yeah, wow, 183 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 4: We're more patient, we're more compassionate, we're more empathic. So 184 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 4: we have these conversations. On a Saturday morning, we go 185 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 4: down to the cafe, I go for a walk along 186 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: the beach or in the park. 187 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: Or whatever it is, and talk. 188 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 4: It's valuable to write the stuff down so that we 189 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 4: can see it clearly, and then we come up with 190 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 4: solutions together. 191 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: I would imagine that someone in the situation with this mum, 192 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: just to wrap it up, probably needs it's so far 193 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: down the track, she probably need someone to help mediate 194 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: these processes. 195 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 3: And that was the last thing I was going to say. 196 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 4: There will be some families for whom this advice is 197 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 4: just not enough. 198 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: The horse has bolted. 199 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 4: Things are so there's violence, there's aggression, there's threats, there's 200 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 4: things being broken. 201 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 3: If that is. 202 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 4: Occurring, you can try this, but I would suggest that 203 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 4: getting some professional help would be even better. 204 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: I want to give her a great big hug and 205 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,119 Speaker 2: say it's not over yet. Just hang in there, mum. 206 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Justin Kilson, the author of Happy Families. Thank you 207 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: so much for helping us try and create one or 208 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: two of those in this time. 209 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 3: Glad to be with you. 210 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to 211 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: rate it on iTunes. When you do that, it increases 212 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: the visibility of the podcast and helps more people to 213 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: find it. And if you're not a subscriber, jump onto 214 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and subscribe so that you can hear every 215 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information 216 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts, 217 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot au. Or if 218 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: you'd like to have doctor Justin Coulson speak at your 219 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: school or event, go to Justinculson dot com.