1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Already, and this is the daily This is the daily. 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Ohs oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Os. I'm Zara, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: and over the next little while, we're going to be 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: bringing you a bonus series featuring our favorite deep dives 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 2: from twenty twenty four. We've put together the best deep 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: dives to listen to on the beach, road, tripping when 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: you don't want to talk to the person next to you, 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: or just reflecting on the year that was. Welcome to 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: tda's summer series. Today, we're throwing it back to August 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 2: when the federal government's right to disconnect laws came into effect. 12 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: Now that means that you can legally refuse a call 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: of text from your boss once you've clocked off. So 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 2: in today's deep dive, Harry explains what changed when these 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: laws came into effect and what will mean for you 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: when you head back to work next year. We are 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: talking about the right to disconnect today because these new 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: laws have come into effect that are aimed at protecting 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: workers from being contacted by their bosses after hours. I 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: do think it would be remissive me not to acknowledge 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: that this is a funny chat for us to have. 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: I am an employer, your own employee, and so you 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: know there might be some difference of opinion when it 24 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: comes to how this might work in reality. But I'm 25 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: very keen to jump into it and hear all about it. 26 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: So where did this story all come from? 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: So I think before we get stuck into it, I 28 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: just wanted to share some results from a poll we 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: did on tda's Instagram stories because I just wanted to 30 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: get a bit of a sense of what the current 31 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: situation is for workers right around Australia. How often are 32 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: they getting contacted by their bosses? 33 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: Did you answer that question, Harry. 34 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: I did not. I decided to remain impartial being a 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: really good journalist. But we asked our followers how often 36 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: does your boss contact you out of work? And a 37 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: huge shout out if you're one of the seven thousand, 38 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: four hundred and forty people who responded in those twenty 39 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: four hours that we had our story up, so we 40 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: love hearing from you, so thank you so much. So 41 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: here's just a quick rundown of how you responded. Two 42 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: thirds of you said you're contacted by your boss outside 43 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of work at least sometimes, and within that group, sixteen 44 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: percent said it happens weekly and six percent said it 45 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: happens daily. 46 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 2: Okay, so that is, you know, fairly quantitative research. We're 47 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 2: understanding the scale of, I guess, the problem that the 48 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 2: federal government has tried to find a solution to. Did 49 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: we have any kind of anecdotal stories of people, because this, 50 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: I mean doesn't tell us those sorts of stories that 51 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: from firsthand experience what it's like to be contacted by 52 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: your boss out of ours. 53 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: We also had an option for people to share their 54 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: stories with us in the poll, and so we heard 55 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: from workers across a range of industries. We especially heard 56 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: from teachers, nurses, and hospitality stuff. Lots of nurses and 57 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: hospital workers told us that they get messages right through 58 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: the night about shift work, and teachers told us about 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,839 Speaker 1: having to be available to speak with parents outside of 60 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: their work hours or they might get a call from 61 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: the principal or the head of department, whoever it may be. 62 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: And there were so many stories to choose from when 63 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: it came to a standout, but the winner officially goes 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: to one of our audience members, Laura, a teacher, and 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: so Laura told us when she was pregnant and entering labor, 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: literally giving birth. She got a call from her boss 67 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: to ask about whether she'd marked some exams for a class, 68 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: and wait for it, it wasn't even her class. 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: Dear God, all right, that one's fairly indefensible. 70 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: I reckon that is, so thank you for sharing that 71 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: with us, Laura. 72 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, so yeah, you're right that one does take 73 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: the cake to go back to the legislation itself. So 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: it's come into effect today. But what's the background here? 75 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: When were these reforms formalized in the first place. 76 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: The way we work in twenty twenty four is such 77 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: a different environment compared to workplaces twenty years ago. So 78 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: think we didn't have smartphones at the start of this century, 79 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: but we're all online now, we're a lot more contactable. 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: In fact, in theory, we're kind of at the fingertips 81 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: of our bosses twenty four to seven. So basically, the 82 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: government tabled some workplace reforms last year, which included a 83 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: proposal to address some of the concerns about employee expectations 84 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: outside of work hours, given that we live in such 85 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: an intrusive modern technology age, and a Senate committee had 86 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: examined the draft law and found that some workers were 87 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: being driven to exhaustion from some of the pressures about 88 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: being available at all hours of the day outside there 89 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: usual hours, and the committee handed down a report in 90 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: February that said that the right to disconnect was an 91 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: aspect of work life balance that needed to be protected legally, 92 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: and so the legislation was passed in that same month. 93 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: Okay, and you said that the government worked with unions 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: on this. What did they have to say about it. 95 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: Unions in particular said there was a need to ensure 96 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: work life balance was protected for Australians. I spoke with 97 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: Michelle O'Neill, who is the president of the Australian Council 98 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: of Trade Unions, who pointed to some research from the 99 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: Australia Institute that found the average employee works two hundred 100 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: and eighty hours of unpaid over time in a single year. 101 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: You should be paid for your work. And it became 102 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 3: clear that more and more workers were being put under 103 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: pressure to work outside of hours and not get paid 104 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: for it, and that often this was really unreasonable. It 105 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: wasn't emergencies, it was in many cases just there being 106 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 3: badly organized. 107 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: The government drafted a law to give work is the 108 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: legal power to quote, refuse to monitor, to read, or 109 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: respond to work related stuff once they've clocked off? 110 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: Okay, And I mean I feel like it's sometimes being 111 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: positioned as a fairly black and white issue, and that like, 112 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: you should never contact your colleagues or your employees outside 113 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: of work hours. But what about, say the scenario when 114 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: someone calls in sick at a cafe and the manager 115 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: has to call around to fill that shift, Like, is 116 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: that sort of thing covered by the law. 117 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: It's a really good question and definitely one that's worth asking, 118 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 1: because you're right, it's not necessarily black and white. Things 119 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: do change, and so the law states there needs to 120 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: be this common sense test of whether contact is reasonable. Okay, 121 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: but what does that mean? Will a cafe owner get 122 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: sued for just asking some of their staff to backfill 123 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: a shift? Or will I get sued because I forgot 124 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: my loggie in over the weekend and I need to 125 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: ask one of my coworkers for it and I might 126 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: be interrupting their time at the beach, Or will use 127 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: Zara again in trouble for sending me an email on 128 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: a Sunday night. It's all very valid to us, so 129 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: I asked the Workplace Relations Minister Murray Watt, what that 130 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: could mean in these types of scenarios. 131 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 4: Most people would say that it's reasonable for an employer 132 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 4: to call someone to see if they're available for a 133 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 4: shift when someone has just called in sick or something 134 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 4: like that. But it's not reasonable for someone to be 135 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 4: contacting someone when they're about to give birth and they 136 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 4: know that. And equally it's not reasonable I think for 137 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 4: an employer to be bombarding people with text messages and 138 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 4: emails well after their hours when they're not being paid. 139 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 4: That's what this comes down to, is that people work 140 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 4: when they're paid to work. I think everyone's prepared to 141 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 4: accept the odd phone call outside of working hours, but 142 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 4: if it becomes a pattern, and if it becomes really intrusive, 143 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: we say that people shouldn't be expected to put up 144 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 4: with that when they're not being paid. 145 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: And so I guess the other part part of this 146 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: is the enforcement that so often this communication is happening 147 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: between an employer and an employee and it can be 148 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: very difficult to have the transparency or for the employee 149 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: to understand what avenues are available to them. If this 150 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: does become an issue, so does the law actually set 151 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: out what to do if someone wants to make a 152 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: complaint about being contacted outside of work hours. 153 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: Yes it does so if someone feels like they're being 154 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: unnecessarily asked to do extra work and field calls from 155 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: their bosses, they can bring a complaint to the Fair 156 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: Work Commission. So that's basically the one stop shop for 157 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: workplace disputes around the country. The law can also work 158 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: in the opposite direction. If a boss thinks their employee 159 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: is refusing to answer reasonable calls or take requests, they 160 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: can also take that matter to Fair Work. 161 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: We've spoken a lot about the government and unions and 162 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: their view on this matter. What about the other side 163 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: of the coin. How have business industry groups for example, 164 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: responded to this new legislation that is in effect from today. 165 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: Some business groups, the Australian Industry Group for example, have 166 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: warned there could be some unintended consequences as a result 167 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: of this law. Basically they're worried about bosses being overburdened 168 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: with more work or who are going to be too 169 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: scared to call their employees because of this new legislated right. 170 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: Innis willis the CEO of the Australian Industry Group told 171 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: TDA in a statement, there's no clear guidance around how 172 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: the law will potentially be interpreted by regulators and courts, 173 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: and the Coalition aren't exactly cheerleaders for the right to 174 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 1: disconnect either. In fact, Peter Dutton, the leader of the Opposition, 175 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: promised to get rid of it altogether if he wins 176 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: the next federal election. 177 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 2: I mean that would be a bit of a confusing 178 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: situation to be in for both the boss and the employee. 179 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 2: If the election changes and that legislation is appealed, it 180 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: would be fairly difficult to navigate. 181 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: I think so. And also what's worth noting is that 182 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: small businesses won't be affected until this time next year, 183 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: so anyone the lead there, Harry, so anyone who employees 184 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: fifteen or fewer people won't be impacted until August twenty 185 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: twenty five. But if the Coalition does win government at 186 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: the next federal election, which is due by May next year, 187 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: then we could see a complete reshuffle. We could see 188 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: them not have to even consider this new law altogether. 189 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: It depends how the cards fall at the election, and 190 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: it depends how people vote at the ballot box. 191 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's just a fascinating story. I'm really 192 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: keen to understand the enforcement mechanism and how it will 193 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: actually work in practice, because I think many people agree 194 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: with the notion of it that there needs to be 195 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: this work life balance, but understanding and seeing over time 196 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: how it plays out and certainly how many of these 197 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: cases actually do end up with a fair work commission, 198 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 2: I think we'll be interesting to see, and. 199 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: These employee groups will definitely be keeping it close eye 200 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: on that as well to see what happens on a 201 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: case by case basis when these different matters go into 202 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: fair work and what fair work does have to say. 203 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, it'll kind of be 204 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: up to them. 205 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to today's episode of tda's summer series. 206 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: We'll be back again tomorrow with another of our favorite 207 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: deep dives, but until then, have a wonderfully warm day. 208 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda 209 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 210 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 211 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 212 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 213 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.