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Speaker 1: What do those food labels mean? How can we understand

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Speaker 1: them so that we can make sure that we're nourishing

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Speaker 1: our children with the stuff they need to have the

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Speaker 1: energy and the vitality to live happy, healthy lives. Today

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Speaker 1: it's a conversation about kids, diet and what we put

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Speaker 1: in our shopping trolleys. Hello and welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most

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Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. My name is doctor Justin Couson and

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Speaker 1: today I'm joined by pediatric dietitian, TV commentator, founder of

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Speaker 1: Nourishing Kids and Nourish with Karina and mum of two

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Speaker 1: Karina Savage to talk all these things. Hey, Karina, thanks

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Speaker 1: for being on the pod today.

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Speaker 2: Hi, thanks so much for having me. It's great to

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Speaker 2: be here.

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Speaker 1: Whereabouts does this conversation find you?

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Speaker 2: Corina? I am in Sydney today, Sydney Mclinic.

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Speaker 1: Karina. When we go shopping with the kids, we're marching

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Speaker 1: up down the aisles pushing the supermarket trollie and we

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Speaker 1: pull that thing off the shelf and look at the

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Speaker 1: back of it to see the ingredients. What are we

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Speaker 1: looking for? Because this is confusing there are so many

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Speaker 1: different categories proteins, sugars, carbohydrates, per serving, per hundred grams,

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Speaker 1: what's the stuff that matters most if I want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that I'm feeding my child healthy food.

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Speaker 3: Justin I think we as parents in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 3: have it tougher than any other parent has ever had

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Speaker 3: it in terms of trying to understand what is a healthy.

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Speaker 2: Food choice for our child or for our family.

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Speaker 3: Currently, with our current food standards and food labeling laws,

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Speaker 3: manufacturers can really use a lot of deception around food labeling,

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Speaker 3: and as parents it's really tricky. Hopefully, in the future,

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Speaker 3: with a lot of you know, I guess encouragement from

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Speaker 3: people such as myself and groups lobbying for this, we

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Speaker 3: will have better food labeling laws in the future where

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Speaker 3: food manufacturers cannot be as deceptive.

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Speaker 2: But currently they.

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Speaker 3: Are able to pour as much salt and sugar into

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Speaker 3: food as they want. They are currently able to label

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Speaker 3: things organic good for us basically when they're.

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Speaker 1: Not hold the phone, hang on a sec. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know this. So they can use the word organic, yeah,

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Speaker 1: even if food is not organically grown up.

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Speaker 3: Well, sorry, they can use the word organic and it

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Speaker 3: is actually organic, but they will use the label organic

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Speaker 3: to make it sound healthy when there's a bucket load

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Speaker 3: of sugar poort into it.

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Speaker 1: So what you're saying is that it already feels overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: The information we get is contradictory, and the food industrial

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Speaker 1: complex is using deceptive marketing to make things seem better

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Speaker 1: for our kids than they actually are.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, when we've had a recent review of our foods

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Speaker 3: in Australia, ninety percent of them of baby and toddler

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Speaker 3: food did not meet international guidelines, and our food marketing

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Speaker 3: is where a lot of it came down.

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Speaker 2: Of food labeling.

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Speaker 1: Was always of the opinion that in Australia we had

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Speaker 1: really great legislation and we didn't have to worry about

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Speaker 1: the stuff that they're worried about in America because they're

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Speaker 1: a bit crazy in the US when it comes to

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Speaker 1: commercialization and big farmer and big food and big tech

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. I thought we were alway

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Speaker 1: better than that here you're suggesting.

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Speaker 2: No, no, absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: We have toddler foods marketed as ninety seven percent fruit

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Speaker 3: and yogurt that is actually worse than white chocolate when

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Speaker 3: you flip it around and you look at the ingredients list.

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Speaker 2: It's got more.

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Speaker 3: Sugar in it than white chocolate. Yeah, it says on

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Speaker 3: the front of the label. They are allowed to say

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Speaker 3: ninety seven percent fruit and yogurt. It's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I asked you about the labels a second ago,

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Speaker 1: But I'm going to tell you what I do.

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Speaker 3: Yeap.

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Speaker 1: In our family, we are, I would say, far more

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Speaker 1: health conscious than most families. We try as much as

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Speaker 1: possible to just eat whole foods. We try not to

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Speaker 1: eat stuff out of packets. But if I'm going to

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Speaker 1: eat something out of a packet, I don't understand. Even

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Speaker 1: though I'm born in the nineteen seventies, I still don't

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Speaker 1: really know what I'm looking for in terms of the

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Speaker 1: nutritional information. So I tell my kids look at the

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Speaker 1: ingredients list, and if sugar or salt is in the

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Speaker 1: top five, then it's a highly processed, highly unhealthy and

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Speaker 1: probably quite an addictive food. If it's out of the

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Speaker 1: top five, I'm usually pretty blase about it and we'll

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Speaker 1: give it a go. No one can see your face,

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Speaker 1: but you're cracking up right now, like this guy has.

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Speaker 2: No idea You've got this huge you do.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking to smile on your face, and I'm interpreting.

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Speaker 1: I'm interpreting that as he's a gumby.

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Speaker 2: No, I love it. I love it. Look. A lot

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Speaker 2: of what you say is true.

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Speaker 3: I always say the shorter of the ingredients list the better.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there are ingredients in that ingredients list that you

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Speaker 3: don't know.

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Speaker 2: Carpronow's grandmother wouldn't know. You know, it's put it back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so much highly processed, refined stuff that goes

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Speaker 3: into our kid's food, ingredients and green and we don't

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Speaker 3: even know what they are, and numbers and all thoughts.

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Speaker 2: It's it's phenomenal. So yes, absolutely. If sugar is.

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Speaker 3: In the top three, definitely, you know, kick it to

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Speaker 3: the curb. Salt is quite highly concentrated, so yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 3: even not five, I would avoid it, and I would

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Speaker 3: encourage people to look to the nutrition table, and in

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Speaker 3: kids food, I will in all food, generally, it's good

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Speaker 3: to compare per hundred grams, so comparing apples with apples,

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Speaker 3: So for example, in a muslibar, you would ideally keep

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Speaker 3: the sugar less than twenty grams per hundred grams. Same

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Speaker 3: goes through breakfast cereals under twenty grams per hundred grams,

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Speaker 3: I mean the lower the better. If you can get

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Speaker 3: it under fifteen or ten, fantastic, But start with under

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Speaker 3: twenty grams one hundred grams to sugar and salt otherwise

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Speaker 3: known as sodium under three fifty per hundred grams, so

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Speaker 3: under three fifty milligrams per hundred grams for sodium.

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Speaker 2: So start with those two.

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Speaker 3: But definitely looking at the ingredients list is a really

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Speaker 3: good place to start because you can look for those

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Speaker 3: those real words.

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Speaker 2: You know, you want to be seeing real words like

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Speaker 2: apple or oats or nuts.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to be seeing things like sugar or

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Speaker 3: concentrated fruit pures or concentrated fruit pastes because that's the

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Speaker 3: way they're currently getting around a lot of these the

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Speaker 3: pouring the sugar into these toddler foods because they say

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Speaker 3: it's natural when it's a real concentrated source of fruit,

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Speaker 3: but they currently allowed to call it just a no

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Speaker 3: added sugar.

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Speaker 1: I've been looking for additives, like for spices, like if

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have for heaters or wraps, that that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. And what I discovered even on the

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Speaker 1: very popular taco mixes for example, sugar is one of

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Speaker 1: the top ingredients in those things. I found one the

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Speaker 1: other day and it literally had three or four ingredients

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Speaker 1: and I knew every single word, and not one of

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Speaker 1: them was sugar. I was like, oh, these are actually

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Speaker 1: these are the spices. This is going to be much

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Speaker 1: healthier for me. So to restate, you're looking for words

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Speaker 1: that you understand and know, and you want to keep sugar,

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Speaker 1: particularly at least out of the top three, and preferably

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Speaker 1: the further down the list it is, the less likely

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Speaker 1: it is that that food is going to be unhealthy

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, we do need to be mindful though, of artificial sweetness,

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Speaker 3: because they're creeping in more and more and more than

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Speaker 3: more people are being health conscious around loose sugar. We're

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Speaker 3: now seeing a rise of artificial sweetness, but they have

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Speaker 3: their own health risks and change is to our gut microbiota.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, we really want to try and keep them

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Speaker 3: out as much as possible as well.

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Speaker 1: After the break, I want to throw you a curly

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Speaker 1: one about the health Star ratings they vex me Carina.

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Speaker 1: That's coming up in just a second. The podcast It's

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Speaker 1: a Happy Family's podcast. This is doctor Justin Courslom today

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Speaker 1: hanging out with pediatric dietitian and founder of Nourish with

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Speaker 1: Carina Karina Savage. We're talking about the stuff we put

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Speaker 1: on our kids plates and they put in their mouths.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about what's on the back of the label,

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Speaker 1: and I want to talk about what's in the front

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Speaker 1: of the label. Big food, the food industrial complex, loves

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Speaker 1: to trumpet their health Star rating, and yet when I

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Speaker 1: look at some of these foods that have four, four

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Speaker 1: and a half even five stars, Karina, I have to

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Speaker 1: scratch my head because on the back there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of sugar. I don't recognize a lot of the things

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Speaker 1: in the ingredients list, and yet these things are considered healthy.

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Speaker 1: Certain muslibars are a very easy example of that, as

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Speaker 1: well as some spreads that we put on sandwiches. Help

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Speaker 1: me to understand what is going on with health Star

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Speaker 1: ratings and are they believable at all? Or is the

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Speaker 1: entire system rigged a kleptocracy. Is there's some kind of

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Speaker 1: just insidious cash for health stars. Then going on with

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Speaker 1: the people who are running the bureaucracy, what's the deal.

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Speaker 3: I don't trust them, and I don't trust them for

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Speaker 3: my family. Because companies know how to work the system,

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Speaker 3: They know the loopholes to jump through to get an

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Speaker 3: just star rating. There's criteria that enabled them to get

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Speaker 3: more stars or less stars, and they know that they

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Speaker 3: may need to just nudge that fiber up a little bit,

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Speaker 3: or nudge that protein up, or nudge that salt down.

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Speaker 2: Just a fraction to get that extra star. But it

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Speaker 2: doesn't take.

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Speaker 3: Away from the fact that some of these foods that

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Speaker 3: have four four and a half stars are highly processed foods,

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Speaker 3: and they've highly processed ingredients that are so far removed

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Speaker 3: from Mother Nature and the original food that it came from.

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Speaker 3: So I find incredible that some highly processed foods that

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Speaker 3: are really poor for us and our gut health are

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Speaker 3: getting these star ratings. And there absolutely needs to be

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Speaker 3: and there is. I think it's coming a big reform

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Speaker 3: of the Health Star rating system and the criteria by

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Speaker 3: which companies are rated, because at the moment, you know,

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Speaker 3: artificial sweetness and things like that, I don't believe they're

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Speaker 3: factored into Health Star ratings when really they should be.

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Speaker 2: I think it's quite.

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Speaker 3: An archaic system and we need to be much more

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Speaker 3: forward than with how we're raiding our food created.

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Speaker 1: Back on January twenty eight, Kylie and I did a

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Speaker 1: podcast episode about a new study that was published here

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Speaker 1: in Australia looking at what goes into the average school

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Speaker 1: kids lunch box. I think it was something like one

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Speaker 1: two hundred. I might have the number wrong, but about

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Speaker 1: twelve hundred lunch boxes were photographed as kids came into school.

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Speaker 1: The researchers had permission to take a photo of what's

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Speaker 1: in the lunch box, and what they found was that

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Speaker 1: the average lunchbox has about four dollars fifty worth of

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Speaker 1: food in it, and the more food in packaging, the

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Speaker 1: more expensive the lunchbox would be. But also the more

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Speaker 1: food in packaging, the less healthy the lunchbox would be.

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Speaker 1: I took that to indicate that we are paying more

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Speaker 1: for a worse outcome, and that if we use and

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Speaker 1: eat whole foods as much as possible, our kids are

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Speaker 1: going to be healthier and we're actually going to be

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Speaker 1: financially better off. But of course the kids will then

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Speaker 1: swap lunch or throw it in the bin because they

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Speaker 1: like the stuff that comes into packets. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: a little bit stuck here, and I was wondering as

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Speaker 1: we as we discussed this highly processed food food industrial

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Speaker 1: complex dilemma, what rules do you have to live by

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Speaker 1: when it comes to putting together an economic but tasty

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Speaker 1: lunch box that the kids will eat.

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Speaker 3: Number One, buying bulk and have bulk amounts of packet

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Speaker 3: foods or bulk amounts of cheese and crackers. So that

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Speaker 3: actually reduced the daily cost of crackers or cheese or

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Speaker 3: whatever you might be putting in the lunch box. So

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Speaker 3: buying bulk, buying in bulk can help to reduce the

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Speaker 3: daily cost of the lunch box.

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Speaker 2: Same if you're buying bags.

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Speaker 3: Of popcorn or newsleibars, trying to buy them in bulk

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Speaker 3: when they're on special and then storing them.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think we still need to consider.

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Speaker 3: Though, the frequency and the number of packet lunch the

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Speaker 3: number of packaged processed foods that go into lunchbox.

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Speaker 2: Because you're right, kids love them.

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Speaker 3: Anything that's white and salty and crunchy or sweet, they

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Speaker 3: love them. And it's PESTI power. You know, parents are

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Speaker 3: time poor. These foods are quick, convenient, tasty, kids love them.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a win wind from that perspective. But

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Speaker 3: it's very much a lose lose from a you know,

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Speaker 3: hitting the hip pocket like they're expensive, and from a

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Speaker 3: nutritional perspective, they're often very low in fiber and nutrition.

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Speaker 3: They're very high in processed ingredients, and so really for parents,

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Speaker 3: I think if you can give them maybe one package

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Speaker 3: processing and their lunchbox too maximum, but really trying to

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Speaker 3: limit the number.

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Speaker 2: Of packaged foods each day.

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Speaker 3: So it's just not a free for all because often

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Speaker 3: kids have your free range to the pantry and they

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Speaker 3: will literally go and just grab another packet of oreos

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Speaker 3: or another packet of crackers, or another packet.

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Speaker 2: Of chicken crimpiece.

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Speaker 3: So it's setting clear boundaries for your family around what's

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Speaker 3: except maybe they have one packet in their lunch box

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Speaker 3: and one packet after school and that's it.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe you have none.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you just have bulk rice, crackers and cheese and

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Speaker 3: chop thedgees, or maybe you do toasted peanut butter after

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Speaker 3: school and there are no crackers. So it's trying to

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Speaker 3: set some clear boundaries for your family, buying in bulk

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Speaker 3: where possible, and really trying to limit these process foods

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Speaker 3: because at the end of the day, it is a

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Speaker 3: lose lose, even though kids love them, it's not good

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Speaker 3: for finances and that's not good for their nutrition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it hits your hip pocket, but it also hits

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Speaker 1: your hips absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It drives into it drives obesity.

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Speaker 2: These white fast sugars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that one. I made that up right there.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 1: So I'm as guilty as anyone on this. And this

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Speaker 1: is the last question, because we're out of time, and

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Speaker 1: I know the answer, which is why I make a

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Speaker 1: big deal about it, And yet I'm inclined to ask

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Speaker 1: are we making too much of a big deal about this?

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Speaker 1: I mean, when we were kids growing up, our parents

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Speaker 1: just gave us heaps of junk. We're eating fairy bread

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Speaker 1: and taking cupcakes to school, hands that cookies and whatever

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Speaker 1: else Mum through in the oven the night before on

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Speaker 1: the weekend, and we were pretty happy to eat all

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Speaker 1: the sugary junkie stuff. It just was it was coming

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Speaker 1: out of our ovens and our fridge and pantries rather

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Speaker 1: than coming off the supermarket shelves.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. It's coming out of mum's oven.

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Speaker 3: It's using ingredients that your mum knew that you know,

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Speaker 3: she made it out of you know, ingredients in her

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Speaker 3: fridge and her pantry. It's not highly processed foods. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: I should say highly processed ingredients. And this is the

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Speaker 3: difference I think. You know, back in the day, it

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Speaker 3: was a sandwich and apple a cookie. I don't think

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Speaker 3: there was as much packet fits. I think today it's

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Speaker 3: so accepted. It's like that herd like mentality. Everyone has it,

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Speaker 3: everyone's doing it. It's fine, it's normal, it's okay. But

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Speaker 3: it's actually not okay on so many levels. But yet

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Speaker 3: it happens to all of us, you know, my kids included,

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Speaker 3: because they love that stuff, because it's tasty, it's sugary.

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Speaker 3: Where possible, though, I will try and bake a few

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Speaker 3: things when I make time, when I carve out, you know,

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Speaker 3: thirty forty minutes on the weekend to make a batch

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Speaker 3: of cookies or make a batch of you know, black

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Speaker 3: being brownie, which is one of my favorite recipes. I

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Speaker 3: don't have to rely on the packet food as much.

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Speaker 3: So if we can try and be a little organized

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Speaker 3: on the weekend just to batch cook some foods, then

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Speaker 3: we won't have to rely on these, you know, the

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Speaker 3: oreos and the diny teddies as much.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying, though, that a home cooked anzect cookie

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Speaker 1: or a home baked cupcake is going to be I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's still still chunk food, but you're saying it's not

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Speaker 1: as bad as the holy process stuff that comes off

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Speaker 1: the supermarket shelf.

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Speaker 3: Correct because you can add in an extra egg, you

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Speaker 3: can use homewheel flour, you can throw in a bit

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Speaker 3: of chea, you know, all of these little tweaks that

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Speaker 3: I often talk to parents about. You can make it

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Speaker 3: more nutritious but still tasty, and that's going to That's

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Speaker 3: where the beauty is because they're still getting a so

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Speaker 3: called treat, but it's going to be a lot healthier

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Speaker 3: and a lot more wholesome with real food ingredients.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we just have the sugar or or drop it

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Speaker 1: bay more than that and the kids don't notice.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right, Karina.

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Speaker 1: I love this conversation. They're never long enough. If if

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Speaker 1: people want to want to hear more from you, because

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Speaker 1: you've got so much to offer, where should they go

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Speaker 1: and what can they get?

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Speaker 3: So head to my website, Nourished with Karina dot com.

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Speaker 3: I've got lots of free information, free recipes there I've

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Speaker 3: also got my flagship Nourishing Kids support program, so you

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Speaker 3: can click on the link to find out more about that.

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Speaker 2: There to help parents.

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Speaker 3: Busy parents who are filling overwhelmed with feeding set up

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Speaker 3: a really healthy feeding plan for their family, so you

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Speaker 3: can find all of that on my website Nourish.

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Speaker 1: With Karina dot com. We will link to that in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. Really appreciate your time and I love

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Speaker 1: these chats. Thanks so much, Thanks Justin. The Happy Families

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Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. More

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Speaker 1: information and resources available on the show notes and at

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Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot u