WEBVTT - Why the Epstein Files split Trump's base

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<v Speaker 1>Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It is Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>the seventeenth of July. I'm Sam Kazlowski.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Lucy Tarsel.

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<v Speaker 2>Senior members of the Trump administration, including President Donald Trump himself,

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<v Speaker 2>facing growing criticism from their own supporters after the Justice

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<v Speaker 2>Department concluded that no document exists that lists every associate

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<v Speaker 2>or client of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein and that the

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<v Speaker 2>disgraced financier died by suicide in jail. The members of

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<v Speaker 2>Trump's party don't believe Attorney General Pam Bondi's findings. Instead,

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<v Speaker 2>they're calling on Trump to fulfill his campaign promise of

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<v Speaker 2>releasing as much information as possible about Epstein's alleged high

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<v Speaker 2>profile clients. It's a story that has stretched over a decade,

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<v Speaker 2>and today we're going to break down what happened this week,

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<v Speaker 2>why it's causing such a stir within Trump's own party,

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<v Speaker 2>and what this means for his administration going forward. Before

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<v Speaker 2>we get into all of that, here's a quick word

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<v Speaker 2>from our sponsor.

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<v Speaker 1>Sam, Before we get into the political fallout that you've outlined,

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<v Speaker 1>let's start with the basics. If you've come in fresh

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<v Speaker 1>to this story, who was Jeffrey Epstein and why are

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<v Speaker 1>people so interested in documents about him?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this is a banker we're talking about. Jeffrey

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<v Speaker 2>Epstein was a banker who was arrested in twenty nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>on federal sex trafficking charges. His former girlfriend, Gallaine Maxwell,

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<v Speaker 2>was charged with helping him abuse teenage girls over a

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<v Speaker 2>number of years. Now. Epstein was found dead in his

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<v Speaker 2>cell at a federal jail in New York City about

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<v Speaker 2>a month after he was arrested, and he was waiting

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<v Speaker 2>sentencing for further sex crimes, and investigators concluded he died

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<v Speaker 2>by suicide. Now, Maxwell, the former partner, was later convicted

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<v Speaker 2>that trial and sentence herself to twenty years in prison.

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<v Speaker 1>So those are the two people at the center of

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<v Speaker 1>this story. Obviously both of them had been convicted of

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<v Speaker 1>a crime at one point or another. But there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of other people associated with this story. Big famous

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<v Speaker 1>names we've not been convicted of anything, but are attached

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<v Speaker 1>to this story. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a fascinating convergence of some of the biggest names

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<v Speaker 2>in the world, not just Hollywood. A list celebrities, but

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<v Speaker 2>members of the royal family from different countries, presidents, billionaires

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<v Speaker 2>from all over the world, really people of power and

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<v Speaker 2>of particular interest to observers is which of those people

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<v Speaker 2>joined Epstein at his infamous private island where many incidents

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<v Speaker 2>of sexual exploitation are proven to have taken place. And

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<v Speaker 2>in that is you know flight files from his private

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<v Speaker 2>jet of who was accompanying him personally, It was dinner reservations,

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<v Speaker 2>it was vps to parties, and all of that makes

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<v Speaker 2>up what is referred to as the Epstein files. And

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<v Speaker 2>the theory is that within these files could be links

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<v Speaker 2>to some of the world's most prominent and powerful people

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<v Speaker 2>who could then have some serious questions to answer for.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you say theory, who's theorizing.

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<v Speaker 2>This, Well, it's kind of evolved into what can only

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<v Speaker 2>be described really as a conspiracy theory, and it is

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<v Speaker 2>mostly popular on the far right. And the theory here

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<v Speaker 2>is that Epstein was actually killed in prison as part

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<v Speaker 2>of a cover up, and they also believe in this

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<v Speaker 2>notion of the deep state, and that the deep state

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<v Speaker 2>is guarding information about Epstein's rich and powerful friends, who

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<v Speaker 2>they say could also be implicated on sex trafficking charges.

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<v Speaker 1>What do they say this the deep state is? Is

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<v Speaker 1>it like the deep web?

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of? It's basically a level of power and a

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<v Speaker 2>level a group of people running the world and running

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<v Speaker 2>America which we as common citizens don't know about. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And it's probably one of the most well known and

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<v Speaker 2>long standing conspiracy theories associated with the MAGA movement Make

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<v Speaker 2>America Great Again. And essentially Donald Trump positioned himself, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in the lead up to his first term in office,

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<v Speaker 2>as the person to deliver the reckoning and to rid

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<v Speaker 2>America of this deep state, to expose those who abuse power,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly in the democratic side of politics.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that like the drain the swamp stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, it's drained the swamp stuff, and it's particularly targeted

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<v Speaker 2>at say Bill and Hillary Clinton. There's been lots of

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<v Speaker 2>implications that they were friends of Jeffrey Epstein, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>And so there was this sense of Donald Trump basically

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<v Speaker 2>saying to his supporter base, there's a really bad group

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<v Speaker 2>of people you don't know about, and they're all tied

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<v Speaker 2>together essentially through this one person.

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<v Speaker 1>So Bill Clinton, former US President, his wife Hillary, who

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<v Speaker 1>was Trump's rival in the twenty sixteen presidential election, and

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<v Speaker 1>then Trump is kind of feeding this idea to his

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<v Speaker 1>supporters that those people are somehow involved in a major

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<v Speaker 1>conspiracy that's also linked to this convicted sex offender.

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<v Speaker 2>And that you know, Jeffrey Epstein may have had evidence

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<v Speaker 2>he was going to deliver to incriminate the Clintons, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>was then not able to do so because he was

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<v Speaker 2>dead killed in prison.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, but based on what we've been led to

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<v Speaker 1>understand by authorities, he died by suicide in prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes. So there's been a number of reports that have

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<v Speaker 2>been released by the FBI and the Department of Justice

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<v Speaker 2>that have led to that conclusion. The gray area is

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<v Speaker 2>around whether there are still documents that are yet to

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<v Speaker 2>be declassified and that we as the publicer, yet to

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<v Speaker 2>actually get our hands on. And that really brings us

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<v Speaker 2>to this week.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot of conversation around declassifying documents. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that a specific promise that Trump has made.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was really a core part of what he's

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<v Speaker 2>promised his supporters in the last two elections, that he

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<v Speaker 2>would drain the swamp, as you said, and uncover a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of this story that would keep people accountable who

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<v Speaker 2>are in power. And Lucy The really interesting turn that

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<v Speaker 2>you need to know about to get to what we're discussing.

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<v Speaker 2>Happened in the last couple of weeks. Is late last year.

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<v Speaker 2>Trump was asked on Fox News whether he would declassify

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<v Speaker 2>documents about Epstein, presuming there are declassified documents, and he said, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I would, But then he added, I think that less

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<v Speaker 2>so now because you don't want to affect people's lives

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<v Speaker 2>if it's phony stuff in there. And that was the

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<v Speaker 2>first sense of us getting an idea that perhaps his

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<v Speaker 2>view on the release of documents is changing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean there is a reason why organizations like

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<v Speaker 1>the FBI and the CIA won't release certain documents until

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<v Speaker 1>after everyone who was involved is dead, and even then

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<v Speaker 1>they might be redacted like the JFK files, which I

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<v Speaker 1>know was another thing that Trump was kind of trying

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<v Speaker 1>to push up Hill to say, like, we should release

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<v Speaker 1>all these documents. So then we also know that there's

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<v Speaker 1>a difference between what is promised in a campaign and

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<v Speaker 1>what actually happens in government. What did the Trump administration

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<v Speaker 1>do once he actually returned to office in January this year.

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<v Speaker 2>So in February, so only a couple of weeks after

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<v Speaker 2>he got resettled back in the Oval Office. A group

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<v Speaker 2>of far right influences were invited to the White House

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<v Speaker 2>and they were given these binders marked the Epstein Files

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<v Speaker 2>Phase one and declassified, and the binders contained documents that

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<v Speaker 2>had largely already been made available to the public online.

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<v Speaker 2>And the idea was essentially to fulfill that campaign promise

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<v Speaker 2>and to ensure that he was delivering on his word.

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<v Speaker 2>But then in May there was a key moment that

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<v Speaker 2>grabbed people's attention and Attorney General Pam Bondi, so the

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<v Speaker 2>Attorney General, the key lawmaker in Trump's administration. She said

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<v Speaker 2>there were quote tens of thousands of videos of Epstein

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<v Speaker 2>with children or child porn.

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<v Speaker 1>Whoa.

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<v Speaker 2>She even claims that the Epstein client list was quote

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<v Speaker 2>sitting on her desk. The White House then quickly denied

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<v Speaker 2>this and said everything that they had on Epstein had

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<v Speaker 2>already been released to the public and there was nothing more.

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<v Speaker 1>To be revealed. Okay, wow, that's a pretty big admission.

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<v Speaker 1>The Attorney General, who's the top legal official in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>says I have this stuff, and then her boss effectively says, no,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have anything.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and then her boss's ex best friend Elon Musk

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<v Speaker 2>after they go through a bit of a bromance breakup. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>he takes to X formerly Twitter his app, and Musk tweeted,

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<v Speaker 2>time to drop the really big bomb. Donald Trump is

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<v Speaker 2>in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they

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<v Speaker 2>have not been made public. Have a nice day, DJT.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was really starting to be more of a

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<v Speaker 2>sense of more to this story than initially thought. And

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<v Speaker 2>then last week the Justice Department stated that Epstein did

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<v Speaker 2>not have a list of clients and said no more

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<v Speaker 2>files related to Epstein's case would be made public. There

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<v Speaker 2>was this memo that was released by the FBI and

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<v Speaker 2>the Justice Department together and it made clear that no

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<v Speaker 2>further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted.

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<v Speaker 1>And the Justice Department is the department that Bondie heads

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<v Speaker 1>up as the attorney General exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have really a lack of essential message here

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<v Speaker 2>across an administration, which and you have to give credit

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<v Speaker 2>to the Trump administration, they've been relatively solid this term

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<v Speaker 2>on staying on message across key leaders of the administration. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this was one of the really big moments where someone

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<v Speaker 2>in Trump's inner circle has really deviated on quite a

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<v Speaker 2>big issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, I mean, the attorney general's a very important job.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's very interesting. How did Trump's supporters react to

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of flip backflip, flip backflip.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is where this story really does get

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<v Speaker 2>even more interesting than it was a couple of weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 2>because we are seeing some cracks in the make America

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<v Speaker 2>Great Again movement in the conservative side of the Republican Party.

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<v Speaker 2>Some key Trump allies are very unhappy, and the focus

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<v Speaker 2>has shifted to whether Trump is blocking the release of

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<v Speaker 2>the files because it is indeed incriminating for him. So

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<v Speaker 2>there's one side of the Republican and conservative ecosystem that

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<v Speaker 2>is basically saying that something sus is going on here

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<v Speaker 2>and that Panmbondi's files that she's talking about need to

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<v Speaker 2>be produced to the public. But there's a whole other

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<v Speaker 2>side of the Maga ecosystem that's saying that Pambondi should

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<v Speaker 2>lose her job because she's spoken out of turn, she's

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<v Speaker 2>thrown her boss potentially under the bus, or she's just

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<v Speaker 2>fabricating the entire thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah wow, But it's not just kind of media and

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<v Speaker 1>the broader Maga ecosystem. What have we heard from inside

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<v Speaker 1>the White House.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, a lot of the blow ups that we've heard

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<v Speaker 2>about from inside the White House over the last couple

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<v Speaker 2>of days are in relation to Pambondi's handling of this case.

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<v Speaker 2>So FBI director Cash Patel and his deputy Dan Bongino

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<v Speaker 2>have apparently had this quote furious conversation. Dan Bongino hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>gone back to work since that conversation about whether Pambondi

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<v Speaker 2>should have released the files or not. Cash Patel has

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<v Speaker 2>said on x the conspiracy theories just aren't true, never

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<v Speaker 2>have been, So he's remaining extremely loyal to the president,

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<v Speaker 2>whilst clearly there's some splintering going on as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the one whose reaction I don't yet know

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<v Speaker 1>is Trump himself. What's he said, Oh.

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<v Speaker 2>He's never short of a reaction. So firstly, it's important

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<v Speaker 2>to say that Trump denies any wrongdoing at all, and

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<v Speaker 2>he has consistently downplayed any relationship he had with Epstein.

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<v Speaker 2>One thing I should also mention, though, is that there

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<v Speaker 2>are these photographs. There are these photographs of Epstein and

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<v Speaker 2>Trump together, and these have been around for many years,

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<v Speaker 2>and Trump has always said that his photographed alongside thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of people all the time, and he has business associates

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<v Speaker 2>going back, you know, four or five decades. He can't

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<v Speaker 2>recall every person he's had an interaction with.

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<v Speaker 1>And Trump was a New York real estate guy to

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<v Speaker 1>begin with.

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<v Speaker 2>It was his job to network. It was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the lifestyle of the rich and famous, a powerful group

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<v Speaker 2>of people. Of course they would have crossed paths. Is

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<v Speaker 2>the Trump narrative, and so Trump has he has defended

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<v Speaker 2>his attorney general. It's been a little unusual. He said

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<v Speaker 2>at a cabinet meeting, it was unbelievable and a desecration

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<v Speaker 2>that people were still talking about this creep being Epstein.

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<v Speaker 2>And he basically said, we should be talking about much

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<v Speaker 2>more important things. He referenced the Texas flash flooding, the

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<v Speaker 2>ongoing conflicts in Ukraine and across the Middle East as

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<v Speaker 2>the more important issues to be talking about. And then

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<v Speaker 2>he talked to Truth Social, his social media platform. On Saturday,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, what's going on with my boys and in

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<v Speaker 2>some cases gals. They're all going after Attorney General Pam Bondi,

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<v Speaker 2>who is doing a fantastic job. We're on one team MAGA,

0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.840
<v Speaker 2>and I don't like what's happening. So defending his attorney

0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 2>general but clearly recognizing there's a bit of a splinter

0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:33.240
<v Speaker 2>in the party.

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, criticizing his own base.

0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's kind of the first time he's really

0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.400
<v Speaker 2>been frustrated with his own supporters. And it's a very

0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.440
<v Speaker 2>divisive topic because it was a major campaign promise that

0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.880
<v Speaker 2>helped mobilize the base, and it's led to a bit

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.440
<v Speaker 2>of a fixation by a lot of Make America Great

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Again influences over this deep state theory that we talked about,

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.719
<v Speaker 2>that there's this hidden list and now that Trump may

0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.520
<v Speaker 2>be on the list, or the theory is that he

0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.559
<v Speaker 2>might be on that list. He's gotten a bit of

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.240
<v Speaker 2>a trap here. He promised to expose corruption and is

0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.840
<v Speaker 2>now saying the evidence doesn't exist. And for those parts

0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.720
<v Speaker 2>who are genuinely interested in the conspiracy theory, and we

0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.079
<v Speaker 2>know how much of a whold conspiracy theories can have

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 2>on political followers and observers, it's caused a bit of

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 2>a credibility issue.

0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.320
<v Speaker 1>So what do we think will be the long term

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 1>effects of this? Do we think people will just move

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.880
<v Speaker 1>on or will it kind of continue to expand.

0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.960
<v Speaker 2>It's early days in this one, but one thing I

0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.160
<v Speaker 2>took note of yesterday was the Speaker of the House,

0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Mike Johnson. So this is one of the most senior

0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.400
<v Speaker 2>members of the Republican Party. He broke with the Trump

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:43.520
<v Speaker 2>administration's decision to keep the files secret. Slash say that

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.120
<v Speaker 2>there aren't files to look at, and he called on

0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.439
<v Speaker 2>the DOJ to release the materials. Now, this is the

0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.280
<v Speaker 2>first time that Mike Johnson has spoken out publicly in

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.000
<v Speaker 2>opposition to the president. So there are some signs, Lucy

0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.439
<v Speaker 2>that this story could be different to other chapters of

0:13:58.480 --> 0:13:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration.

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.280
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for explaining that for us. Sam, all good and

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.360
<v Speaker 1>thank you for joining us today. That's all for today's

0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Deep Dive. We'll be back again this afternoon with the headlines.

0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Until then, have a great day. My name is Lily

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Kalkutin woman from

0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 1>Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays

0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.600
<v Speaker 1>respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.840
<v Speaker 1>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.160
<v Speaker 1>both past and present.