WEBVTT - Missing While Blak 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.160 This is Curtain, a podcast where we expose the disappearances 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.680 of Aboriginal people across this country, shining a light on 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.040 the darkest parts of our justice system. We ask who 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:15.920 are the victims? 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:21.120 I'm aiming Maguire and I'm Martin Hodgson, Senior Advocate at 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.640 the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning. This series 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:29.280 contains the names of deceased people and includes distressing content 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:31.160 that may upset some listeners. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.200 Welcome to episode four of season two of Curtain the podcast. 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.400 This season, as we've told you, we've been investigating the 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:47.680 disappearances of Aboriginal women and children across the country, and 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.680 one of the questions that often comes up is would 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.120 this have happened to a white person or a white child? 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.080 And we know instinctively, as Aboriginal people that it wouldn't 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.040 have happened, and yet there is not a level of 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.880 detail given as to the differences between how the police 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.920 investigate cases. Today, we're going to break down in detail 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:17.080 exactly the police responses using comparative cases. We're going to 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.080 look at two very high profile cases, and there are 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.000 cases that you've probably heard about, one of young Cleo 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:28.160 over in Western Australia and then the devastating disappearance of 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.880 William Terrell and William Terrell is still disappeared. 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:33.360 We're going to. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.640 Compare that with the cases of Baby Charlie and Colleen Walker. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.120 These are cases involving Aboriginal children that you may have 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.240 not heard about and yet which are names that are 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.120 well known across Aboriginal Australia, and we think it's very 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.880 important as we continue these investigations that we understand clearly 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:58.440 the differences in how police respond to missing persons, and 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:02.840 by understanding those differences, we can see clearly how their 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:08.520 responses are racialized and are examples of racial violence. So Martin, 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.200 I wanted to start with you about your analysis into 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.280 one of these cases. Cleo. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:16.079 Yeah, thanks Amy. 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:16.280 So. 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.200 Cleo Smith was a four year old Australian girl at 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.160 the time when she was abducted on the sixteenth of 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.880 October twenty twenty one from a camp site in the 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:32.720 Gascoyne region of Western Australia. Her family briefly searched for 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.560 her and informed police at six twenty three am when 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.680 they realized she was not in the vicinity of the campsite. 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.040 A police car was dispatched seven minutes after the phone 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.720 call and arrived at the remote site at seven ten am. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.040 Police then conducted an air, land and sea search around 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.519 the area for the majority of the day. Task Force 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.920 Rodeo was launched by the West Australian Police with assistance 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.240 from the Australian Federal Police, involving more than one hundred 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:09.760 officers led by Superintendent Rod Wilde, and the Western Australian 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.600 Government offered a reward of a million dollars. The other 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.240 case we're going to discuss, as Amy said, is William 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.920 Tyrrel and as many might know, he disappeared at the 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.120 age of three from Kendall in New South Wales on 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:30.079 the twelfth of September twenty fourteen at ten fifty seven am. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.640 His foster mother called Triple O to report him missing 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.200 and New South Wales Police arrived at the scene at 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.480 eleven oh six am. Motorcycles and helicopters were brought into search. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.960 Two hundred volunteers were used to search overnight and hundreds 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:53.440 of people combed rugged terrain around the home. Police divers 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:58.160 searched waterways and dams. Police searched every single house in 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.800 the estate which is near eye to his location, and 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.080 they actually did this on multiple occasions. Detection dogs were 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.640 also brought in and managed to detect Williams scent, but 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.119 only within the boundaries of the backyard. Strike Force Roseanne 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.680 was established with a specially trained investigator from the State 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.520 Crime Command leading it up and again in the same 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.640 way that the West Australian government did, the new South 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.479 Wales government offered a million dollar award, but a year 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:33.520 before William disappeared. In March twenty twenty three, Tamika Malayy, 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.440 a young mother, was violently assaulted and left bleeding in 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.520 a Broome street by her ex partner Mervyn Bell. Miss 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.760 Bailey pleaded with police when they arrived to help her, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:50.000 but instead she was handcuffed and sent to hospital. Her father, 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.600 Ted Malaly, also tried to raise the alarm with the police, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.960 telling them that Tamika's baby, ten month year old Charlie 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:02.320 was in serious danger. Mervyn Bell, the ex partner, had 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:06.559 previously made violent and disgusting threats against the little boy. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.840 He urged them to bring Charlie with them, but he 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:16.080 too was ignored and would later be sentenced for obstructing police. Instead. 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.320 Ten months your old baby Charlie was passed to friends 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.719 and Tamika was taken away by the police. Tamika and 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.800 Ted were victims. They begged the police for help, but 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.040 they are Aboriginal, so instead of help, they were arrested. 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:36.400 The police simply didn't care. They arrested an Aboriginal woman 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.800 who had just been violently assaulted and didn't listen to 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:44.440 her father that his little grandson could be next. There 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.560 was no seven minute response as there was for Cleo, 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.040 or a nine minute response as there was for William. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:56.680 That is the response time we should expect for every child. Instead, Tamika, 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.680 a victim of serious domestic violence, was taken away to 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:04.760 Joe and then hospital. In the meantime, Tamika's former partner, 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.599 the man who had just assaulted her, Mervin Bell, arrived 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.839 at the house and took ten months old baby Charlie 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.200 from friends and a warning for listeners. The next few 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:22.360 moments detail some fairly horrific violence. Over the next fifteen hours, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:28.520 Mervin Bell tortured baby Charlie, assaulted him, sexually, abused him, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.760 and finally murdered him. It would take the police twelve 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.839 hours before they started to look for baby Charlie. They'd 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.520 misplaced information that had been given to them, They passed 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.359 on an inaccurate number plate that would have led to 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.040 Mervin Bell, and they never bothered to use mobile phone 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:53.120 data to locate him, the very same thing they used 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:58.359 when Cleo went missing. The same Western Australian Police, Baby 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.360 Charlie was taken by Bell to a road house, already 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:07.479 deceeased with visible burns, broken bones, internal bleeding and severe abrasions. 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.520 The West Australian Police arrested an Aboriginal woman who had 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.120 just been violently assaulted, and they let a child murderer 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.440 run free for hours. Bell would be convicted a year later, 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.640 but he killed himself in prison. Tamika and her father 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:28.440 Ted were convicted for assaulting and obstructing police, and it 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.680 would take nearly ten years for them to be pardoned. 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.160 An investigation by the Crime and Corruption Commission found and 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.560 I quote there was a delayed and ineffective response by 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.320 individual officers on the night, but it was impossible to know, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.200 they said, whether a more rapid response could have saved 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:54.320 Baby Charlie. Saying impossible to know is beyond insulting to 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.840 Baby Charlie's memory and everything to Meeka and Ted have 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.000 been through. Had they simply a arrested Bell for his 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:05.800 violent assault on Tamika, Baby Charlie would be alive today. 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.360 Had they listened to her father, Ted's urging that Mervin 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.360 Bell had made serious threats and baby Charlie was in danger. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.440 Baby Charlie would be alive. Had they commenced a search 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.920 immediately and tracked his phone, as they'd done for others. 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:26.840 Baby Charlie would be alive. Had they been simply smart 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.320 enough to pass on a license plate correctly from one 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.960 officer to the next, or done anything that any decent 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.560 person could and would do, Baby Charlie would be alive. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.840 Quite frankly, how any of those officers aren't in jail 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:46.000 alongside Bell can only be explained by nation that reacts 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.000 in a moment's notice for some and simply lets black 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.880 women and children be bashed and killed right in front 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.440 of their very eyes. And in case you still need 0:08:55.520 --> 0:09:00.520 more convincing, even after Baby Charlie was found dead, went 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.920 to his grandpa Ted's home and racially abused him for hours. 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:11.520 In nineteen ninety, in September, an aboriginal teenager, Colleen Walker, 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:16.960 went missing from Barraville. Her sister, Paula says, and I quote, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.240 Colleen never went anywhere without letting Mum know wherever she was. 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.559 And I remember Mum coming down and asking did anyone 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.240 see Colleen? Like he was just mainly family going looking 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.760 and asking questions about where Colleen is or where she was. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.280 When people said they didn't see Colleen, I know Mum 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.200 started to panic. I'm Colleen's younger sister. I was fifteen 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.920 at the time when she went missing. I don't know 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.480 if it's sunk into myself until a while after that 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.120 she was never going to come home or we were 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.600 never going to see her again. Detective Inspector Gary Jubilin 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.120 from the New South Wales Police was brought on to 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.640 the case in the year's following and he says, I quote, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.960 at the time, there was two schools of thought. She 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.760 was a sixteen year old girl and whether a sixteen 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.960 year old girl has inadvertently decided to go to another 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:15.040 location without telling people or acting irresponsibly. I would suggest 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.920 there was that school of thought, but there was also 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.559 the concern that something had happened to her. Paula, Colleen's sister, 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.800 contradicts that she said, I remember the police not taking 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:31.400 it seriously when Colleen went missing. They were like, there 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.280 was never any search parties, no one searched for her. 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:39.080 About the family, they told mum awful things like she 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.160 probably just went walk about. In the month's following, the 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.880 same man we all know murdered Colleen would go on 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:51.360 to kill two more Aboriginal children, Colleen's little cousin, four 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.480 year old Evelyn Greener and sixteen year old Clinton Speedy Duro. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.679 But again, just like baby Charlie, these were average children. 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.160 So the police simply didn't care. There was no seven 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.000 or nine minute response. There was just no response at all. 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.760 As the Bauerville families gathered in front of police demanding answers, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:19.839 a senior officer addressed the crowd. He said, and I quote, 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.960 to do this investigation properly, we've got to have you 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.960 people on side working with us, you people. Can you 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:33.080 imagine if they'd said that to Chloe Smith's family, to 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.920 William Tyrell's family, to the family of any missing white child, 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.880 that officer would lose his job in a moment. Instead, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.679 Aboriginal children were not humane enough to be considered, and 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.199 their angry parents and relatives were more of an agitation 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.840 to police than anything else when it comes to the media. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.680 In the case of Cleo Smith, it was the police 0:11:55.720 --> 0:12:00.840 themselves that kept feeding the story post her success or rescue. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.880 They released audio of the moment of the little girl's 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:08.640 rescue and video of her a few minutes later on 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.920 the Friday night after she'd been found. It was the 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.680 police that distributed her statement from the family, who thanked 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:20.360 everyone involved in the rescue, particularly the police. So not 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.679 only had the police acted for the family in finding her, 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:27.040 they then went on to act as their own pr 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:47.839 firm and for the family. Amy, I want to ask 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.920 you how the media generally responds to these cases, Given 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.760 that we know in Cleo's case that the media was 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.560 everywhere and all over it, what do you think happens 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:01.680 when Aboriginal children go missing. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.839 I think you've raised a very important point Martin, particularly 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.400 in relation to the police feeding the story, and we 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.079 saw that also with William Terrell. So what I've found 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.600 is often the Isralian media will be led by the 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:20.240 police in determining what is a newsworthy death or what 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.000 is a newsworthy disappearance, because the media emerges as a 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.880 really important part of trying to find someone who is missing, 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.560 because obviously when you put their cases on primetime news, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.360 you're searching for leeds, you're searching for any information that 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.400 could come from there, and so the media become an 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.479 organ for the police in order to continue their investigation. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.160 But the issue there is the media having a symbiotic 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.960 relationship with police, is that then there emerges the silence 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:54.640 around children who had disappeared who are not seen as newsworthy, 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.199 and those are black children, those are Aboriginal children, as 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.960 if seen in those really horrific examples of Baby Charlie 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.360 and of Colleen Walker and the Bowable children, Clinton Speedy 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.439 Dua and Evelyn Greenup, is that they were not afforded 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.320 the police response that they should have been afforded because 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.160 their disappearance, even the disappearance of a little three year 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.440 old girl like Evelyn Greenup, was still seen as their 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.600 own responsibility. So the media did not care for them 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.240 because they didn't see this as even an issue that 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.520 these were potentially disappearances which were of their own making. 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:37.880 And you see particularly the really horrific racial violence in 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.360 the case of Baby Charlie, which is really really hard 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.560 to talk about I have trouble listening to the details 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.600 of Baby Charlie's case. And I know that if you're 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.840 here listening and you don't know about Baby Charlie, I 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.520 imagine that you would have difficulty listening too. But Baby 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.200 Charlie's case shows exactly how the police a violent towards 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.400 black women, and how they contribute and reproduce violence on 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.960 the bodies of not just black women, but black children 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.520 through their failure to care and through the racial violence 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.760 they enact on Aboriginal families who are the ones who 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.600 cared for them. And there has never been justice for 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.000 Baby Charlie, and there's never been justice for Colleen Walker, 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.680 who has still disappeared. And the media coverage that you 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.000 have seen of Baby Charlie's case and that you have 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:32.720 seen of Colleen Walker's case is because of the Aboriginal families. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.240 And they stood there and they refused to go away, 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.960 and they wanted to get the memories of their children heard, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.440 and they are wanting to fight for justice. And I 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.560 remember when Cleo Smith particularly went missing and there was 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.560 waves of coverage. It was the number one news story 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:55.480 in the country. I remember thinking there were questions that 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.880 were raised at that time coming from Aboriginal community about 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.720 the fact where is the coverage and where is the outrage, 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.800 and where is the concern for black children who go missing? 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.920 And there are many black children who go missing every 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.360 single year, And so there was this small conversation that 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.360 was happening around the same time, but Aboriginal people who 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.600 were talking about this were told to shut up and 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.160 to concentrate instead on the issue of getting Cleo home. 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.080 But there were really important conversations that had to be had, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.520 and it comes down to the very idea of newsworthiness 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:34.640 and how we construct newsworthiness. So Cleosmith's case and William 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:39.480 Tyrell's case became widespread news stories because they had these 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:44.520 common elements of newsworthiness. In relation to the rarity of 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.080 the cases. It's incredibly rare for a child to be 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.200 abducted by a stranger in Australia. In William's Tyrrel's case, 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.080 we still don't know what happened, but the circumstances of 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.560 his case was he was at home and suddenly disappeared 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.360 from his front yard. And similarly, in Cleo's case, it 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.080 was always going to be a big newsworthy case because 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.359 of the rarity because of the idea of a stranger 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.119 and the images and the fear that that conjure us. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.920 And it was really good that Cleo and William both 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.359 had that coverage, even though in one case where still 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.520 police are still searching for William. But what happens is 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.240 that the cases of Aboriginal children, they are cases that 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.440 are newsworthy. So you look at Baby Charlie and you 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.840 look at the circumstances of Colin Walker, They're not seen 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.639 as that because other things are constructed around them to 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.840 make them seen as unnewsworthier, as unworthy of attention. And 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.359 that goes directly to Colleen Walker's case being framed as 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.080 a case of her going walk about. The other Barville 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.719 children being framed as cases of their own responsibility. You know, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.920 they've just disappeared. There's no one who has caused their disappearance. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.720 And the case of baby Charlie where I think the 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.800 police are made absent in this story where there is 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.920 a perpetrate who is the man who took baby Charlie's life, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.080 who perpetrated violence upon him and who perpetrated violence against 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:10.800 his mother. But the violence of the police in refusing 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:15.679 to take refusing to first take the mother seriously and 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.960 to incarcerate her, to treat her so appallingly, and also 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.640 the racial violence towards her grandfather and the way he 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.400 was seen, and I know that they were talking about 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.040 him being potentially a drunk Aboriginal person, which is totally untrue. 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.480 He cared for his grandson and he was deeply fearful 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:36.840 for his grandson, and that is shown in a lot 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.840 of text messages that came out in the CCC investigation. 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.239 And so even if stories like Colleen Walker, even if 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.960 stories like Baby Charlie have all of the usual elements 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.280 of newsworthy and as according to standard journalistic practice, they 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.440 are still not seen as newsworthy. They're still not seen 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.080 as life's worthy of being found and of lives worthy 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.239 of being mourned, and of lives worthy of justice. And 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.919 that is the issue. And I think the importance of 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:08.600 Martin's analysis there is that you can't deny it because 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.800 it's as clear as day when you look at the 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.280 details of the differences between the police and the media response. 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.480 Aboriginal people aren't making it up when we say this 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.680 wouldn't have happened to a white child, So why does 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.440 it keep happening to our black women and our black children. 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.120 And I should also say Aboriginal men as well, because 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.960 there have been cases where Aboriginal men have disappeared and 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.200 we hear nothing of them until the families rise up 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.800 and make people know about this. Martin, did you want 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:40.880 to reflect on anything I just said there? What came 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.600 out for you when you were looking at this analysis. 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.159 One thing is I was listening to what you were explaining, Ami, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.879 is that this is not the first time on this podcast, 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.439 which has been going for more than six years, that 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.600 we've raised this issue. In fact, quite a number of 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.520 years ago we brought up a case again in Western 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.880 Australia where the West Australian police were called by an 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:11.199 Aboriginal grandmother whose daughter had just been violently assaulted. And 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:15.200 when the police turned up, they didn't assist the grandmother, 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:21.120 they didn't assist her daughter. They arrested both, just as 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:25.720 they'd done in the case of Baby Charlie's mum and grandfather. 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.199 And this story prompted a chapter in the stellar prize 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.480 winning book by Jess Hill See What You Made Me Do, 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.720 about domestic violence, and Jess talks about in the book 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.159 how shocked she was to hear of such a case. 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.800 And you have to remember that she's a very senior 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.719 leading journalist in this country who's won many prizes. And 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:52.919 yet despite the hours I spent discussing this issue with 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:58.320 Jess and in many radio interviews and TV interviews, and 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.879 I know Amy did the same, the response from everyone 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:07.720 who supposedly wanted the right thing was to call for 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:14.040 more laws, for more police action. Nobody had actually listened 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:18.520 to what we said, which was the police were the problem. 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.560 And so all these years later, we're back having the 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:29.359 same conversation. So I wonder, Amy, given that we have 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.080 been involved in this discussion, given that we've laid out 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:37.840 the facts, given that they just simply can't be disputed 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.600 that the reaction of police to white and black is 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:47.080 so starkly different, is there any way that things can change? 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:51.280 And what role does the media have in if they 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:55.280 hear these stories and then simply fail to report the 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.720 truth that the police are the problem. 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.600 As you were talking, I was reminded of a lot 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.520 of the because I think it is a similar violence 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:08.320 the cases and stories I've done and also read about 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.359 deaths in the health system, particularly deaths of Aboriginal children 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.080 and the health system. And I know there are cases 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:19.800 where Aboriginal mothers bring their children to the hospitals very 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:24.399 very concerned about their well being, they're in such ill health. 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.920 What happens is that often, and this emerges from coronial inquests, 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.119 is that the doctors and the nurses don't take the 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.640 concerns of the mothers seriously and they don't actually look 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.480 at the underlying issue of why these children are coming 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:42.800 to the emergency. Often they're left and sent home with 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.399 things like pendole and they later pass away of things 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:51.480 like sepsis or infections that avoidable deaths, of infections that 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.520 could have been treated very early on, but are totally ignored. 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.920 And that comes down to the callous response shown from 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.760 doctors and nurses to the mothers and to the families. 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.280 And when you think of things like sepsis, one of 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.280 the things that from what I understand, that doctors and 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:10.400 nurses have to look at is how concerned the parents 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.280 are about what is going through, what is happening to 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.600 their child. That's one of the warning signs for things 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.359 like sepsis. And there have been cases where Aboriginal children 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.240 have guided sepsis because they have been turned away from hospitals, 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:25.760 And I think of it similarly in the cases of 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:31.119 disappeared Aboriginal children and women and men. Often the families 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.440 will know something is wrong and that they're not taken seriously. 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:36.800 So we know, I think we've talked about it in 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:39.439 this podcast that there are many missing persons who go 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:43.320 missing every single year Acrostus country, and the vast majority 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:45.840 of them will be missing for a day and then 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:48.720 they will be found. So often this means that it 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.639 might just be a usalert that the police release on 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:56.040 social media, and often there's no further coverage than that. 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.040 But what a journalist can do is talk to the 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:04.199 family and find out why this is so out of character, 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.440 why you are so concerned, Because Aboriginal women and children 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.679 just don't go missing, you know what I mean. So 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:14.760 there are ways that you can make sure that you 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:18.760 elevate the concerns of the families. And even if it's 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:21.720 not a continuing news story, the fact a child has 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:25.160 disappeared or gone missing should be concerned enough because they're 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:27.840 in an unsafe environment. No child should be out there 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:31.000 missing on the streets. That is the first thing you 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.640 should worry about. There should be concern amongst the community 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:39.640 about finding that child. Even if something hasn't happened to them, 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.119 the fact that they are out there and not at 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:46.119 home should be a concern straight away. And so I 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:50.360 think it starts from taking these disappearances seriously and from 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:53.480 acknowledging the concerns of the families, because in every case 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.800 that I've looked at, the families are the ones who 0:24:56.880 --> 0:25:00.720 are so concerned and report their loved one missing, and 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:02.840 so often they are turned away. And the thing you 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:06.720 have to know about these stories we talk about is 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.359 that they're not aberrations. They are happening to what we 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.560 consider to be a crisis level. But you don't hear 0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:16.800 about them because if the media wait for the police 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:20.160 to lead, then you're not you're not going to get 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:23.760 the coverage that every one of these disappearances deserve. And 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:26.480 so you actually have to do journalistic work. You can't 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:30.439 be beholden to a police pr department, and there are 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:33.080 ways you can talk about that by talking to the 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.679 families and being of service to the families and finding 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:36.520 their loved ones. 0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:39.280 And so I think the message there is really clear 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:43.320 in terms of the evidence we've presented and then, as 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:46.800 Ami has explined as both an experienced journalist and a 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:50.960 scholar in this area, journalists simply have to do their jobs. 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:57.119 Stop copying and pasting pr press releases from the police. Instead, 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:01.520 do what you would do in any other case, listen 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:05.200