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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Runda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty eighth of June.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara and today is an exciting day for two reasons.

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Speaker 3: The first is that Zara and I have written our

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Speaker 3: first book goes on pre sale today. It's called No

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Speaker 3: Silly Questions and it's the starter guide to reading the news,

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Speaker 3: the stuff that you weren't taught in school, all together

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Speaker 3: in one handy guide. You can head to the show

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Speaker 3: links right now to pre audio copy. They are hot

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Speaker 3: off the press and I'm so excited to see that

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Speaker 3: in the world.

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Speaker 4: So am I.

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Speaker 2: And you know, sam Our presale journey got me thinking

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Speaker 2: about somebody else's presale journey.

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Speaker 3: Well, they've been very simple this week.

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Speaker 4: They have ours and Taylor Swifts.

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Speaker 2: How could you not compare the two tickets for Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift's Australian shows went on pre sale earlier this week,

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Speaker 2: and there's another tranch of those tickets going live today.

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Speaker 2: Chaos demand for tickets on Monday led to technical difficulties

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Speaker 2: on the website, but nothing as bad as what we

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Speaker 2: saw during pre sales in the US last year.

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Speaker 5: For many fans of Taylor Swift, there is definitely some

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Speaker 5: bad blood, at least between them and Ticketmaster.

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Speaker 1: I did not get tickets to see Taylor Today.

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Speaker 5: Wasn't exactly a fairy tale for Taylor Swift fans who

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Speaker 5: were seeing red after Ticketmaster crashed multiple times when the

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Speaker 5: singer's concert tickets went on sale this morning.

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Speaker 2: As Ossie ticket By, a hopeful set out to watch

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Speaker 2: purchase pages load today, we thought it would be a

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Speaker 2: good time to chat about how these ticketing platforms work,

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Speaker 2: how you can end up charging five thousand dollars for

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Speaker 2: a ticket that goes for five hundred, and really what

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Speaker 2: happens next for this industry. TDA journal hum Crowley's going

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Speaker 2: to join us in the deep dive, but Sam, before then,

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Speaker 2: what is making headlines except for our book?

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Speaker 3: Well, engineers at Virgin Australia have begun industrial strike action.

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Speaker 3: Members of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association will strike

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Speaker 3: for the last two shifts in their roster cycle. They've

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Speaker 3: offered to work overtime to prevent disruption.

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Speaker 2: A Sydney crime figure was fatally shot in his car

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Speaker 2: in a Bondai car park on Tuesday morning. Police believe

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Speaker 2: the murder was a highly targeted organized crime shooting, describing

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Speaker 2: the victim as a quote high level criminal. Three crime

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Speaker 2: scenes believed to be linked to the shooting of being investigated.

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Speaker 3: A man has been arrested after allegedly vandalizing the office

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Speaker 3: of Federal Senator Katie Gallaha in Canberra Suburbs on Monday. Gallaha,

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Speaker 3: who represents the Act in the Senate, said her office

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Speaker 3: would remain open following the incident. The man will front

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Speaker 3: court in July.

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Speaker 2: And the good news It's A thirteen year old from

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Speaker 2: the Gold Coast has become the first female skateboarder to

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Speaker 2: land a seven to twenty in a competition. Arisa True

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Speaker 2: landed two mid air rotations in the US over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: She hopes to represent Australia and next year's Paris Olympics.

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Speaker 2: And you can watch that incredible video over on our Instagram. Tom,

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Speaker 2: your day has finally come. You are on the TDA

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Speaker 2: podcast and you are not talking about economic turmoil.

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Speaker 4: How excited are you?

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Speaker 5: I get to talk about something? Lights are I've been

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Speaker 5: asking for this for weeks, so much death and destruction

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Speaker 5: and recessions. I still think there's some interesting economic angles

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Speaker 5: in the Taylor Swift story.

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Speaker 2: Would you believe only you can find an economic angle

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Speaker 2: to a Taylor Swift concert?

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Speaker 4: But I like it.

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Speaker 2: Talk to me about this tour that was announced in Australia.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a huge deal, Zara. I'm still on my

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Speaker 5: Taylor Swift discovery journey, so I'm not queuing up for tickets,

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Speaker 5: but I mean it's massive, right. It's her first Australian

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Speaker 5: tour since twenty eighteen, and she is She's the biggest

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Speaker 5: thing in these at the moment, and so it's understandable

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Speaker 5: that there's a massive rush for tickets. And I think

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Speaker 5: we're all pretty used to online queueing processes for tickets

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Speaker 5: that everybody wants. It happens for sporting events, it happens

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Speaker 5: for festival tickets. This is a whole different category though.

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Speaker 5: We get five Tailor Swift shows in Australia, three in

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Speaker 5: Sydney and two in Melbourne, and there's heaps of tickets.

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Speaker 5: So we're at the MCG in Melbourne where you get

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Speaker 5: more than one hundred thousand people in similar numbers that

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Speaker 5: are Course Stadium in Sydney, but still nowhere near as

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Speaker 5: many tickets available as there are people who want them.

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Speaker 2: And so what actually goes into buying a Tailor Swift ticket.

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Speaker 2: I've watched a lot of our colleagues standing around a

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Speaker 2: computer waiting for something to load.

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Speaker 4: How do they actually get one?

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Speaker 5: So the process is all run through Ticketech, the ticket

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Speaker 5: sales company, and it's staggered into three intervals. So on

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Speaker 5: Monday there was the first of what they call the

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Speaker 5: pre sales, and that was for American Express card holders only.

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Speaker 5: I'd be fascinated to know whether anyone took out an

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Speaker 5: American Express cards specifically so they could join that presale.

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Speaker 5: Those were tickets really at the very luxury end, so

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Speaker 5: they were kind of I think they call them unforgettable

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Speaker 5: flaw tickets and they're from you know, nine hundred to

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Speaker 5: twelve hundred and fifty dollars apiece. So that was the

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Speaker 5: sort of most expensive first release, huge demand. The American

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Speaker 5: Express website I think struggled to meet that demand, but

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Speaker 5: more or less, I mean they sold all the tickets

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Speaker 5: that they wanted to sell. Today, there's going to be

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Speaker 5: another pre sale, and that one is for anyone who's

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Speaker 5: signed up to the company Frontier Touring, that's the tour

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Speaker 5: company that's managing this tour. It's free to sign up,

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Speaker 5: so expect there will be a whole lot of people

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Speaker 5: trying to get their tickets in that pre sale today,

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Speaker 5: and then finally all the remaining tickets go for a

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Speaker 5: general sale on Friday. They stagger the times for Melbourne

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Speaker 5: and Sydney. They do what they can to try and

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Speaker 5: distribute the demand across the website. But basically the idea

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Speaker 5: is you go on, you're told, don't refresh your browser,

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Speaker 5: sit in this waiting room, and just hope that you

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Speaker 5: got in there in time you'll get the opportunity to

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Speaker 5: buy a ticket. That's the effect shill process. But of course,

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Speaker 5: as I said before, we know they're way, way, way

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Speaker 5: more people who want to go than there are tickets,

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Speaker 5: and so once all those official tickets are sold, we

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Speaker 5: get into the slightly murkier territory of reselling and tickets scalping,

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Speaker 5: and you know, a whole bunch of more complicated questions

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Speaker 5: to ask at that point.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is where the newsworthiness of this

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Speaker 2: story comes in. We've already seen some precedent. When Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swiss Tour went on presale in the US, demand was

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Speaker 2: so high that tickets never even made it to general sales.

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Speaker 2: Is there a risk of that sort of thing happening here?

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Speaker 5: Look, it's certainly unlikely that we're going to have anything

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Speaker 5: near the level of disaster that happened in America. It

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Speaker 5: was absolute chaos. We wrote about it at the time

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Speaker 5: and people may remember it. It was just a nightmare.

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Speaker 5: There was a pre sale that sort of broke records

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Speaker 5: for most sales for an artist in a day. I

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Speaker 5: think it was two million tickets were sold in a

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Speaker 5: pre sale, and it was just absolute chaos. You had

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Speaker 5: fans who were missing out because the website was struggling

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Speaker 5: to accommodate traffic. You had people who thought that they

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Speaker 5: had guaranteed access who didn't get tickets. The general sale

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Speaker 5: was eventually canceled, and there were devastated fans who missed out, the.

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Speaker 6: Tickets you have selected have been released, the line has supped,

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Speaker 6: coving the website fully grass no line, and it became

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Speaker 6: a political issue.

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Speaker 5: You had US politicians speaking out and criticizing Ticketmaster for

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Speaker 5: its monopoly status, and there was an investigation from a

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Speaker 5: US Senate committee into what went wrong. It was unmitigated

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Speaker 5: chaos in America. I think that Ticketech will be hoping

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Speaker 5: to avoid that same situation in Australia and certainly seems

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Speaker 5: to have put a lot of planning into the staggering

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Speaker 5: of its sales. But again, what I keep coming back

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Speaker 5: to is even a really smooth process, even if it

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Speaker 5: all goes really well today and people kind of process

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Speaker 5: through this waiting room efficiently, still going to be disappointed

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Speaker 5: people who miss out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I mean the number of Taelsoft fans does not match

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Speaker 2: the number of tickets the number of shows that she's

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Speaker 2: putting on. Here, what happens if someone does miss out

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Speaker 2: on a ticket?

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Speaker 4: What then? What can you know? What are their options?

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a really complicated question. So ticketech is the

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Speaker 5: only authorized seller, That's how they describe it on their website.

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Speaker 5: But reselling is a thing, or at least resales do occur,

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Speaker 5: and as I say, this is where we get into

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Speaker 5: some murky territory and the words scalping comes up. So scalping,

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Speaker 5: broadly speaking, it's the practice of deliberately buying up a

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Speaker 5: ticket so you can then profit off selling it at

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Speaker 5: an exorbitant price to other people. Now ticketech is trying

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Speaker 5: to put some strategies in place to limit this. They're

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Speaker 5: only going to give the barcodes out closer to the

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Speaker 5: event date. But already on some of the ticket resale

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Speaker 5: websites like via go go, there have been tickets from

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Speaker 5: the American Express pre sale available. I went on yesterday,

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Speaker 5: I wrote a piece about this and I found a

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Speaker 5: ticket on via co go for a Melbourne show advertised

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Speaker 5: at five eight hundred and ninety dollars. I didn't buy it, obviously,

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Speaker 5: that's almost five times the official highest price for the

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Speaker 5: very best sets in the house. So that's what that's creat.

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Speaker 4: That has to be illegal, surely.

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Speaker 5: So it is illegal. In New South Wales and Victoria,

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Speaker 5: there are laws against reselling a ticket for anything more

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Speaker 5: than ten percent above the original price, So that's essentially

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Speaker 5: a limit on scalping, which means that eight hundred and

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Speaker 5: ninety dollars ticket is effectively illegal. The rules are slightly

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Speaker 5: different in the different states. So in Victoria something has

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Speaker 5: to be officially designated as a major event, but that

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Speaker 5: designation was given today, so in both states a ten

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Speaker 5: percent rule will apply. And that means that these websites

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Speaker 5: like via go go ticket merchant Tixel, which puts its

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Speaker 5: own limits on prices, but all of these websites will

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Speaker 5: have to obey the legal limits. So those sort of

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Speaker 5: six thousand dollars price tags shouldn't go through and people

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Speaker 5: should get refunded if ever that happens. But that I

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Speaker 5: guess that the second complicated question is, even if you

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Speaker 5: are reselling within the legitimate price, is the ticket a

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Speaker 5: legitimate ticket? And that's where these different websites have different policies.

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Speaker 5: So Tixel says that they check all the tickets to

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Speaker 5: make sure that they're legit, whereas via go Goo on

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Speaker 5: its website it says, you know, basically just warning, any

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Speaker 5: tickets we sell you may not be valid, and we'll

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Speaker 5: refund you if you get there on the day and

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Speaker 5: you can't get into the venue. But you know, there's

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Speaker 5: not such any promise that they're going to check before

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Speaker 5: the day that your ticket is legit. So there are

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Speaker 5: huge risks for consumers there, and it's one of the

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Speaker 5: reasons why the A Triple see that Australian Consumer Authority

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Speaker 5: has been particularly concerned and watched closely the business models

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Speaker 5: of these ticket reselling companies. Via go Go was ordered

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Speaker 5: to pay a seven million dollar fine after the A

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Speaker 5: Triple C took them to court in twenty twenty for

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Speaker 5: misleading customers sort of Essentially, the argument was they were

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Speaker 5: mask is the official seller of tickets to events when

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Speaker 5: they were not. So it is an interesting world out there,

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Speaker 5: and you know, I think ticke Tech certainly wants people

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Speaker 5: to focus on buying through the legitimate platform, buying through

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Speaker 5: their platform.

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Speaker 2: Every time I hear stories of these sites crashing and

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Speaker 2: people having to go through you know, third party cells,

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Speaker 2: it just strikes me that we really should have better

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Speaker 2: options available, and like we have technology modernizing before our

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Speaker 2: eyes in so many different elements, and yet when it

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Speaker 2: comes to live music and big shows, that just doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem to be the case.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And there's two layers to it, right, There's like

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Speaker 5: the way that you design the system. So ticketech thinks

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Speaker 5: its website is going to hold up today. We'll see

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Speaker 5: whether it's got the kind of technical firepower to do that.

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Speaker 5: But there's the broader question as well, And I guess

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Speaker 5: this is where our shoehorns some economics in which is,

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Speaker 5: you know, obviously this is a bit of a chaotic process,

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Speaker 5: but what is the best process? What is the fairest way?

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Speaker 5: If we sit back and ask again, we have a

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Speaker 5: limited number of Tailor Swift tickets, a whole lot of

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Speaker 5: Taylor Swift fans, what is the fairest way for us

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Speaker 5: to decide to allocate those tickets? And is our current

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Speaker 5: system the fairest way? And it's a really interesting question,

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Speaker 5: how do you design the ticket market? So I'll kind

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Speaker 5: of give you two hypothetical extremes AARA just to kind

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Speaker 5: of get you thinking about this. One way of answering

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Speaker 5: the question of how do we allocate the tickets is

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Speaker 5: let's give them to the highest bidder. The people who

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Speaker 5: are willing to pay the most for Taylor Swift tickets,

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Speaker 5: they're the ones who get the tickets. You let people

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Speaker 5: basically participate in a bidding war. You probably would at

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Speaker 5: that point sell a bunch of tickets for six seven

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Speaker 5: who knows how many thousand dollars. That's certainly one way

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Speaker 5: of allocating the tickets, but I guess we would question

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Speaker 5: whether that's a fair way because it ends up being

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Speaker 5: the richest people, the people with the most money, who

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Speaker 5: get the tickets, and certainly we often hear from the

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Speaker 5: artists themselves they don't want it that way. They don't

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Speaker 5: want it to just be a luxury item for extremely

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Speaker 5: rich people to come and see them live. I think

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Speaker 5: Ed Sheeran and Coleplay put pretty strict limits on their

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Speaker 5: tickets for their concerts because they don't want it to

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Speaker 5: be inaccessible for all of their fans on the other

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Speaker 5: end of the spectrum, I guess the other hypothetical for

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Speaker 5: how you could allocate these things is to say, let's

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Speaker 5: allocate them totally at random. Let's have a lottery, which

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Speaker 5: might sound like kind of a crazy way to do it,

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Speaker 5: but it is actually something that we use for all

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Speaker 5: sorts of things. So AFL fans might know that the

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Speaker 5: mcg's Members section allocates Grand Final tickets based on a lottery.

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Speaker 5: They draw it once a year, and if you get

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Speaker 5: pulled out in the lottery, you get to go. In

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Speaker 5: a sense, you could argue that that's kind of a

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Speaker 5: fair way to allocate places in a circumstance where a

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Speaker 5: whole lot of people are going to miss out. Neither

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Speaker 5: of those systems are perfect, but the system that we

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Speaker 5: have at the moment is this kind of weird in

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Speaker 5: between where essentially the people who get the tickets I guess,

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Speaker 5: are the ones with the fastest finger on the web page. Like,

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Speaker 5: there is an element of chaos in this system that

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Speaker 5: we have. Now, there's no perfect way to design these things,

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Speaker 5: but I think it is really interesting exercise to ask

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Speaker 5: that question and to focus on the question of allocation.

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Speaker 5: How do we allocate this scarce resource to the many,

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Speaker 5: many people who want it? And that's a question that

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Speaker 5: matters not just for Taylor Swift tickets. That's a question

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Speaker 5: we ask ourselves for all sorts of things that we

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Speaker 5: need to allocate in society when they are finite.

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Speaker 2: Well, good luck to those who are what I would say,

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Speaker 2: entering the Hunger Games today and trying.

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Speaker 4: To get Taylor Swift tickets.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when you lay out the economics of it,

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Speaker 2: it is truly just a sensational thing. And I always

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Speaker 2: think about imagine being Taylor Swift, like imagine knowing that

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Speaker 2: you are crashing sites, that you are contributing single handedly

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Speaker 2: to economies.

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Speaker 4: I think it's just an insane story.

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Speaker 5: It's a terrifying amount of power, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 4: It's like world leaders have nothing on Taylor Swift. But

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Speaker 4: there you go. Tom, thanks so much for jumping on chat.

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Speaker 4: To you later.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Sarah, Thank you for us on the Daily OS

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Speaker 3: this morning. If you learn something from today's episode, don't

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Speaker 3: forget to hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting

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Speaker 3: for you every morning. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then,

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Speaker 3: have a great day.