1
00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 1: That's often tweens we're looking at. And we're starting to

2
00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:10,920
Speaker 1: get into social media, which adds this additional mirror. Right,

3
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: you had the mirror in your head, and now you

4
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,280
Speaker 1: have the mirror on your phone where you're taking selfies

5
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: and you're looking at yourself constantly and you're editing them,

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: and you're scrolling through hundreds thousands of images a day

7
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 1: of other people. Right, So that's just really turning up

8
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,800
Speaker 1: the focus on appearance. So that's the first sort of

9
00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,400
Speaker 1: challenge that girls are running into at this age.

10
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,880
Speaker 2: This is the Parenting and Perspective podcast. It's a Happy

11
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,040
Speaker 2: Families podcast.

12
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:36,240
Speaker 3: Hello.

13
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 2: My name is doctor Justin Colson, dad to six daughters,

14
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 2: author of six books about raising happy families. And when

15
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,880
Speaker 2: I began researching for my book Misconnection, it became pretty clear,

16
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:51,200
Speaker 2: very quickly that body image was an enormous issue between

17
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 2: and teen girls. In fact, for women generally, the anxiety

18
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 2: the body image causes our daughters is a byproduct of

19
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 2: the world we live in where women are judged on

20
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,479
Speaker 2: their appearance in a way that men simply don't experience. Well,

21
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,559
Speaker 2: my guest today is doctor Renee Engeln. She's the author

22
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,679
Speaker 2: of one of my favorite books, Beauty Sick, How the

23
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 2: Cultural Obsession with Appearance Hurts Girls and Women. Doctor Ngeln

24
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,839
Speaker 2: is a professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Illinois,

25
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,240
Speaker 2: where she directs the Body and Media Lab. Renee's work

26
00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 2: has been published in numerous academic journals, and she's a

27
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,840
Speaker 2: regular contributor to The New York Times, the Chicago Tribune,

28
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 2: and the Huffington Post. Her ted X talk from the

29
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,320
Speaker 2: University of Connecticut has racked up almost seven hundred thousand

30
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,679
Speaker 2: views on YouTube. So when you finish this podcast, look

31
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,760
Speaker 2: up that one as well. It's so worth watching, and

32
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 2: make sure you grab a copy of Beauty Sick, How

33
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 2: the Cultural Obsession with Appearance Hurts Girls and Women. It's

34
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 2: a fabulous book when it comes to psychology and how

35
00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,960
Speaker 2: girls and women view their physical appearance. I don't think

36
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 2: that there's anyone more qualified than Professor Renee Engeln. And

37
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,920
Speaker 2: as you well, I began by asking her what work

38
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 2: in family life looks like for her.

39
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 1: Well, let's see, I'm a psychologist, I'm a body image researcher,

40
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 1: and I'm a professor at Northwestern University, which is in Evanston, Illinois,

41
00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 1: just just north of Chicago, Illinois. And what else am I?

42
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm an aunt to a wonderful niece and nephew who

43
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,680
Speaker 1: came along kind of later in my life, and that

44
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:29,120
Speaker 1: has been an absolute joy. There four and almost two.

45
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 1: They're little. Yeah, they're little, and I've never I have

46
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,240
Speaker 1: to say this is going to be a horrible thing

47
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,760
Speaker 1: to say on a podcast focused on parenting, but I've

48
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 1: never really liked babies. I find them kind of terrifying

49
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 1: and sticky, and they don't hold their heads up and

50
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,280
Speaker 1: they've always been scary. And when I knew my brother was,

51
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, he and his wife were having children, I thought,

52
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,959
Speaker 1: what if I don't love them? But no, I do.

53
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 1: I love them more than I thought it was possible

54
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 1: to love. So it's been full of joy and also

55
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,160
Speaker 1: just interesting for me to learn how to connect with

56
00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,560
Speaker 1: these these little people that have been such a good

57
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: part of my life.

58
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally with you on the floppy neck thing that, Yeah,

59
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 2: that really bothers me. But for some reason, especially when

60
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 2: they're blood, I mean, babies generally, you know, you see

61
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,799
Speaker 2: them and they are but but but when they're blood,

62
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,239
Speaker 2: when they're related to you, there's something that happens is there.

63
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: Everyone said it would feel different, and I didn't believe them,

64
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: but yeah, there's something powerful there that they're an extension

65
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: of my brother. My love so much and and you.

66
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 1: I've always been teased I like, I like tweens and teenagers.

67
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,920
Speaker 1: So about the time that children really start to drive

68
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 1: their parents crazy, I'm always like, send them to me.

69
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 1: I got them, Like, I really like that. I like

70
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,360
Speaker 1: their anger and their intensity and all that.

71
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:52,720
Speaker 3: So you can say that.

72
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,640
Speaker 2: You can say that because you're not the mom, right

73
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 2: the mom is a like, ah, that'll be the cool,

74
00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:58,119
Speaker 2: this will be fun.

75
00:03:58,240 --> 00:03:59,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, send them to me. I have a number of

76
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 1: friends who say, will you talk to my daughter? And

77
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, game on, talk about how

78
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: terrible you are.

79
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Renee, we're going to cover in this conversation

80
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,000
Speaker 2: body image because that's your area, this is your absolute fascination,

81
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,839
Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about how it affects the

82
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 2: youngest children right through to tweens, teens, and even adults.

83
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,159
Speaker 2: The mums and dads who are participating in this conversation

84
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 2: and listen.

85
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 3: To what we have to say.

86
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,280
Speaker 2: So a little over a year ago, I read a

87
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 2: book that it just absolutely captured me. I wrote it

88
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 2: on my list. I keep a spreadsheet of all the

89
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 2: books that I read each year. I'm a little bit

90
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 2: it's just because my bookshelf's kind of full of books,

91
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,159
Speaker 2: and sometimes I forget which ones that I loved and

92
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 2: which ones I didn't or what was in them. And

93
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 2: so I've got this spreadsheet where I title author, what

94
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 2: did I give it out of five and a bit

95
00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 2: of a spiel about how I enjoyed the book.

96
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,279
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you think that's funny. So anyway, my

97
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 3: dear getting.

98
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 1: A live book review, and the nerdiest way ever I

99
00:04:59,680 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: like it.

100
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 2: This is this is who I am. Your book was

101
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,600
Speaker 2: a five star book. It was pretty much my book

102
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 2: of the year. I think that one and a book

103
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 2: by Todd Rose from Harvard called The End of Average

104
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 2: was that were my two books of I think it

105
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,040
Speaker 2: was twenty eighteen. I just loved Beauty Sick, which is

106
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,839
Speaker 2: the name of your book, Beauty Sick, and I gained

107
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 2: a sense of perspective that I just can't describe. So

108
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,799
Speaker 2: I'm a male, I've never had the kinds of questions

109
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,279
Speaker 2: about my body that you describe women experiencing. Now, I

110
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,800
Speaker 2: haven't told you something about me as well, and that

111
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 2: is that my wife, Kylie, and I are the parents

112
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 2: of six daughters.

113
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:40,919
Speaker 1: Oh what are their age rangers?

114
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,760
Speaker 2: Our eldest has moved out, she's married, she's in her

115
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,920
Speaker 2: early twenties. And then we've got one who is finishing

116
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 2: her senior year of high school. She's about to be eighteen.

117
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,560
Speaker 2: We've got one who's sixteen in grade ten, and then

118
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,440
Speaker 2: we've got one in grade seven, one in grade five,

119
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 2: and our baby is in her first year of school.

120
00:05:58,680 --> 00:05:59,280
Speaker 1: Wow.

121
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,479
Speaker 3: Girls, So as I was reading your book, I saw

122
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,479
Speaker 3: things in a new light.

123
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,919
Speaker 2: I just didn't know that females felt the way you

124
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,120
Speaker 2: described when it comes to their bodies and the pressure

125
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:14,279
Speaker 2: that they fell around their bodies.

126
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 3: Even with my wife, I'd never saw that. Now.

127
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,279
Speaker 2: What's really interesting about that is when I first went

128
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 2: on a date with her, I think it was pretty

129
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,120
Speaker 2: much our first proper date. We walked into a chicken

130
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 2: and chip shop. You don't really have them so much

131
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 2: in the United States. I've found where you buy the

132
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,440
Speaker 2: barbecued chicken and a whole lot of hot You call

133
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,120
Speaker 2: them fries, we call them chips. We've got these places everywhere.

134
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 2: We call them things. Like charcoal chicken. And so you

135
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:37,880
Speaker 2: go in and you order your chicken, your chips, and

136
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,599
Speaker 2: your salad or your chicken fries and salad, and it's

137
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 2: all really fresh, and you go out and sit on

138
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 2: the beach and eat it or whatever it might be.

139
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 3: So I've walked in and I've.

140
00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,279
Speaker 2: Ordered a chicken and a couple of dollars worth of chips,

141
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,839
Speaker 2: and then I looked at Kylie and I said, what

142
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,400
Speaker 2: do you got to order? And she thought that was

143
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:53,919
Speaker 2: funny because she thought I was going to share my

144
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 2: chicken and chips with her, and I was like, no, no, no,

145
00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,680
Speaker 2: I'm eating the chicken and the chips.

146
00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 3: What do you go to order?

147
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,279
Speaker 2: And she said, for the first time in her life,

148
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 2: she was able to relax on a date because she

149
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,599
Speaker 2: could see that I didn't care what she ate, because

150
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,160
Speaker 2: she was never going to be able to eat even

151
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 2: close to what I ate. In fact, she said it

152
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,040
Speaker 2: was the first time she'd been on a date where

153
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,280
Speaker 2: she ate more than a little bit of salad.

154
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,520
Speaker 1: I'll just have a salad, right. So many women they

155
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,760
Speaker 1: go home hungry and then they eat in private afterwards.

156
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and your book kind of opened up this world

157
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 2: of what it must be like to be female and

158
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,400
Speaker 2: to be worried about body all the time. Now, as

159
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 2: it happened as I was reading your book, I was

160
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 2: writing a book about teen girls, and it influenced the

161
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 2: questions that I asked them in the way that I

162
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,360
Speaker 2: was able to write about their answers, and I found

163
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 2: it just so helpful and so extraordinary. But in the

164
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,880
Speaker 2: introduction of your book, you state, and I quote, so

165
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,280
Speaker 2: many young women today are strikingly bold in important areas

166
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 2: of their lives, but still crumble in front of the mirror.

167
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,119
Speaker 2: They fight so hard to be treated with respect, but seem,

168
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 2: at least at times, to be willing to trade it

169
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 2: all in an instant if they could only remake their

170
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,520
Speaker 2: physical opear pearance. And then you give an answer to

171
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 2: the question of why that is, And this is an

172
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,880
Speaker 2: image for one of a better word, or maybe it's

173
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,400
Speaker 2: the perfect wood that really sticks throughout the entire book.

174
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 2: You say, quote, we may no longer play dress ups

175
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,120
Speaker 2: and pose in front of the mirror the way young

176
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 2: girls do, But I worry that's only because we've internalized

177
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 2: that mirror, we never actually left it behind.

178
00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 3: I mean, that is so powerful.

179
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 2: Can you can you talk about this idea that the

180
00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,600
Speaker 2: mirror is on the inside.

181
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a This is a big paradox, and

182
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,160
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are not sure how

183
00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 1: to wrestle with because in many ways, we've been sold

184
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 1: a bill of goods. Right. We've got these generations of

185
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: young women who are like, I can do anything and

186
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 1: I can be anything. And what we've seen is a

187
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,960
Speaker 1: co optation of that sense of power to sell them

188
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 1: on beauty products and diet plans and tutorials and this

189
00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 1: world that is completely obsessed with how they look, and

190
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,360
Speaker 1: we've sold it as empowering, right, which is insane. And

191
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,720
Speaker 1: what happens is that we've gone from having a culture

192
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 1: that's always looking at women, that's always commenting on how

193
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,559
Speaker 1: they look. We've gone from that, from that coming from

194
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 1: the outside to a point where we've internalized it and

195
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,560
Speaker 1: we do that to ourselves. So I try to stay

196
00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,080
Speaker 1: away from academic jargon, but there's a term that I

197
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,200
Speaker 1: always need to use, even though it's jargon, which is

198
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,240
Speaker 1: self objectification. Right. So the idea is if the world

199
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 1: treats you like an object long enough and with enough

200
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,840
Speaker 1: intensity that eventually you see yourself that way, Right, you

201
00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,800
Speaker 1: don't need to be looking in the mirror because it's

202
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,560
Speaker 1: in your head, and so you're always monitoring how you look.

203
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 1: You're always aware. It's distracting, it's distressing, right. It crops

204
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 1: up in inopportune times. It keeps you from living the

205
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: life that's more consistent with your values. So that's what

206
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 1: I mean when I say beauty sick, is that you've

207
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 1: got that mirror stuck in your head and it's causing

208
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,920
Speaker 1: you trouble, and it's not your fault. That's always the

209
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,720
Speaker 1: thing I want to say. This is not something wrong

210
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 1: with individual girls and women, it's something wrong with our culture.

211
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,319
Speaker 2: Well, let's start with the culture. In fact, no, we

212
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,280
Speaker 2: might come to the cultural stuff in just a few seconds.

213
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 2: I want to talk about this beauty sickness. First of all,

214
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 2: let's talk about young children, young girls, because when I

215
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 2: was reading in Beauty Sick, you set the stage by

216
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 2: starting with the youngest of our children, let's say, around

217
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,040
Speaker 2: age five, and you cite some research that talks about

218
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 2: how five year olds feel about their bodies.

219
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:39,959
Speaker 3: Five year old girls.

220
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 1: There's a pretty large survey found that about thirty five

221
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 1: percent of five year old girls are already saying that

222
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 1: they at least sometimes engage in dietary restraint. Now, I

223
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: want to be clear that five year olds don't understand

224
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,160
Speaker 1: what dieting actually is, right, So when a five year

225
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,120
Speaker 1: old tells you that she's dieting, what she's telling you

226
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,400
Speaker 1: is that she's already learned that this is what women do, right,

227
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: that this is this is part of being a grown up,

228
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 1: this is something you think about. All of these young

229
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,040
Speaker 1: girls are already telling us close to third saying that

230
00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 1: they're comparing their bodies to women and girls they see

231
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,600
Speaker 1: in cartoons and movies and television programs. Right, So they're

232
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,080
Speaker 1: at this really young age where they're just learning to

233
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 1: use their bodies. I'm not a developmental psychologist by training.

234
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,719
Speaker 1: I focus mostly on teenagers and adults. I don't I'm

235
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 1: not super expert about young children, and so when I

236
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,040
Speaker 1: started writing this book, I actually just did some basic

237
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,800
Speaker 1: research on the developmental stages for children. And one of

238
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,440
Speaker 1: the things that really threw me and I read about

239
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,480
Speaker 1: this in the book as I asked, well, okay, well,

240
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 1: what are five year olds supposed to be doing? Like

241
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,040
Speaker 1: what marks where a five year old is? And one

242
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 1: of the things that was listed was learning how to

243
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,880
Speaker 1: properly use utensils a spoon and fork, And I thought,

244
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 1: these are kids that don't even necessarily know how to

245
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 1: use a fork particularly well. And they're already worried about dieting. Right,

246
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: They've gotten great at getting the food into their mouth

247
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:08,520
Speaker 1: yet and they're already trying to keep it out. It's heartbreaking, right.

248
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,840
Speaker 1: It suggests that what's happening is that a lot of

249
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 1: families are transmitting values to their young daughters that they

250
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: don't mean to transmit. I think that's a lot of

251
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: what's happening.

252
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I appreciate what you've said there at the end,

253
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 2: that parents are well intentioned and they don't even know

254
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,439
Speaker 2: very often that these values are being passed on to

255
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 2: the next generation from that tiny, tiny age. I wonder

256
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,360
Speaker 2: how much of it is children actually being unhappy with

257
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 2: their bodies versus just doing what they're seeing happen in

258
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 2: the environm Mum's always talking about the diet or dad's

259
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 2: always talking about the diet, and so therefore I'm supposed

260
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 2: to be on a diet.

261
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 3: I don't even know what a diet is, but.

262
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 2: I remember when my little ones, and in fact, I've

263
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,880
Speaker 2: got some video footage of my sisters. I've got twin

264
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,760
Speaker 2: sisters who are a few years younger than me, and

265
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,199
Speaker 2: I've got some really great footage of them at about

266
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 2: the age of four or five, and they're running around

267
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,679
Speaker 2: the swimming pool. And the way I describe it is

268
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,920
Speaker 2: they're running aund they're not wearing any tops because.

269
00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 3: They're only four or five, you know, they're little.

270
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 2: They've got their little bikini bottoms on or the little

271
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 2: you know, the little swimwear bottoms on, and they've got

272
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,679
Speaker 2: what I would only describe as sticky addy tummies, because

273
00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 2: you know how little kids, they've got the sticky addy tummy.

274
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 2: And they're completely uninterested in what they look because they

275
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:24,280
Speaker 2: look like because they're so.

276
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 3: Absorbed in the moment.

277
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 2: They're so caught up in it, and I kind of think,

278
00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 2: isn't that what it's supposed to be?

279
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, my four year old niece loves

280
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 1: to show me. We talk only on FaceTime now because

281
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,000
Speaker 1: we are still locked down due to COVID, but she

282
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 1: loves to lift up her shirt show me her stomach

283
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,960
Speaker 1: right and kind of like grab it and move it around.

284
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,360
Speaker 1: And I get kind of sad already for the day

285
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,679
Speaker 1: that she's ashamed of her stomach. And you might think, oh,

286
00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 1: that day won't necessarily come, and I think, yeah, they will, right,

287
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 1: We haven't. We haven't really found a way to prevent

288
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,839
Speaker 1: that for our girls. Yet. It may not be all

289
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,559
Speaker 1: the time, and it may that be that it may

290
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 1: not be that bad, but you can bet there's a

291
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 1: really good shot that she's going to become a tween,

292
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 1: probably maybe not until a teen who doesn't like her

293
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: stomach anymore. And so that joy she has in her

294
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,960
Speaker 1: body now, I wish she could keep it longer. I

295
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 1: think it's it's it's amazing. It's important too in learning

296
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: how to use your body without fear, right, and in

297
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,680
Speaker 1: learning how to really inhabit your body as a doing

298
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 1: thing instead of as an object. But even parents who

299
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 1: meanwhile are already tamping this down in young girls, that

300
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 1: sort of bodily joy, how so partially with comments, right

301
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: when we say things like sit like a lady. That

302
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 1: partially And this is this is my big beef lately,

303
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 1: by dressing girls and clothing that doesn't allow them to move.

304
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: If this is a thing parents do, and I don't

305
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: think it's it's it comes from poort intensions at all, right,

306
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 1: but there's this temptation to put girls in dresses and

307
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 1: tapes and things that make it really hard to crawl

308
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,680
Speaker 1: and jump are things that you're more likely to tell

309
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 1: them to be careful, not to get dirty, to sit nicely.

310
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,160
Speaker 2: Just on that a there's a movement increasing in Australia.

311
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 2: So andlike America, all of our schools, almost all of

312
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 2: our schools insist that children wear a school uniform to school.

313
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 2: But what typically happens is that the boys are wearing

314
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 2: a shirt and shorts. The girls will in many cases

315
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,880
Speaker 2: be wearing a dress, or they'll be wearing a skirt

316
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 2: orthough be wearing some item of clothing that makes movement

317
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,960
Speaker 2: a little bit more restrictive. If they want to be

318
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 2: I feel uncomfortable even saying the word now that we're

319
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 2: having this conversation. I was going to say, if they

320
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 2: want to be more boisterous, but let's change that too.

321
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,400
Speaker 2: If they want to be more active, it's very, very

322
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 2: challenging for them to do that in a way that

323
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,000
Speaker 2: would conserve a sense of modesty, because they're wearing dresses

324
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 2: and they don't want to be flashing their undies all

325
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 2: the backside to everybody. And so we've had this conversation

326
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 2: in Australia over the last year, two, maybe even three years,

327
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 2: where schools are now starting to recognize that perhaps it's

328
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 2: okay for girls to wear whatever they want, including comfortable shorts,

329
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 2: so long as it's within the school uniform set up

330
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 2: right like this.

331
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 1: And why wouldn't it be okay right the fact that

332
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 1: we have to have.

333
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,120
Speaker 2: That conversation, but so many are still saying, no, it's

334
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:22,880
Speaker 2: not okay. This is our uniform and this is how

335
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 2: we want our girls to be. We want them to

336
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 2: be demure and lady like. Can you be lady like

337
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 2: and wear shorts? That's my question? I mean I think

338
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 2: you can.

339
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 1: What does lady like me? And I mean ladylike means

340
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 1: like a lady, and there are all kinds of ladies

341
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 1: out there, So I find I find that whole phrase

342
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 1: really problematic because what you're teaching your girls when you

343
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 1: say that is stay small, right, don't take up space,

344
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 1: don't move, don't learn to use your body, don't stretch it,

345
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 1: don't trust it. Instead, from the beginning, think of your

346
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,480
Speaker 1: body in terms of how it looks to other people.

347
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 1: Does it look appropriate, does it look modest. If you

348
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 1: want them to look modest, then put them in shorts

349
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,680
Speaker 1: so they can move however they want. Right. And when

350
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 1: you look at infants, I guess when they're a little older,

351
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 1: they start to crawl. It's actually quite hard for a

352
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 1: lot of babies to crawl in skirts and dresses. Right,

353
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: And even that is something we don't think about. I mean,

354
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: just imagine it. Imagine now trying to crawl in a

355
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,760
Speaker 1: dress versus pair pants or a pair of shorts. Right.

356
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,640
Speaker 1: So are how we dress girls in such a way

357
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 1: that requires constant fussing and monitoring. It has a real

358
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,160
Speaker 1: impact on how they grow up to feel about their bodies.

359
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:37,200
Speaker 3: I want to come back to.

360
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:38,919
Speaker 1: Me, your bodies for other people?

361
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

362
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 2: Let's go back to the conversation about children. Okay, So

363
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 2: we started with five year olds and how a third

364
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 2: of them or just over a third of them females.

365
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 2: I'm guessing it wasn't the males that wanted to change

366
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 2: their bodies, by the way, it was just the females

367
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 2: that were talking about the diet.

368
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 3: What happens as they get older.

369
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,560
Speaker 2: Can you talk me through the next sort of ten

370
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 2: to twelve years from age five through to age seventeen eighteen.

371
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 1: So I'd say there's two big changes right that happen.

372
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,640
Speaker 1: One is introduction to social media. Now, when that happens

373
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 1: depends on the kind of choices parents make and what's

374
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 1: going on with peers and things like that, but it's

375
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: often tweens we're looking at who are starting to get

376
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 1: into social media, which adds this additional mirror. Right, you

377
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 1: had the mirror in your head, and now you have

378
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,879
Speaker 1: the mirror on your phone where you're taking selfies and

379
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 1: you're looking at yourself constantly and you're editing them, and

380
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 1: you're scrolling through hundreds thousands of images a day of

381
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: other people. Right, So that's just really turning up the

382
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: focus on appearance. So that's the first sort of challenge

383
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 1: that girls are running into at this age. And then

384
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,439
Speaker 1: puberty hits, right, and the research around puberty is so

385
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 1: clear that it tends to make boys like their bodies more. Right,

386
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 1: It brings boys bodies more in line with the ideal,

387
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,400
Speaker 1: tends to make them more muscular, broad on their shoulders,

388
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,120
Speaker 1: get taller, things like that. But with girls, because puberty

389
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: tends to increase the amount of body fat you have

390
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 1: despite the fact that puberty is a sign of them

391
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 1: physically becoming adult women, it actually is moving them farther

392
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 1: from the body ideal for women, and there's something really

393
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: twisted and wrong about that. But this is the time

394
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 1: that we see a lot of girls start to have

395
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 1: very very significant struggles with body image, some of which

396
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 1: can turn into eating disorders at this age. And I

397
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 1: think one of the most important findings for me that's

398
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 1: come out of the clinical psychology literature is a study

399
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 1: that's was trying to understand why it is that we

400
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,439
Speaker 1: see the gender gap and depression show up in this

401
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,679
Speaker 1: sort of early adolescent place. You know, until that point,

402
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,400
Speaker 1: both girls and boys get depressed about the same rates,

403
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 1: but once the girls get a little older, it just

404
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 1: starts to go up and up. Right, we see this

405
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 1: big gap. And there's pretty good evidence now that part

406
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,440
Speaker 1: of where that gap comes from is girls worried. Girls

407
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: worries about their bodies right, how their bodies look to

408
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: other people, how their faces looked to other people, their appearance.

409
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: So it's really this time when body image concerns that

410
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: could have been a distraction can turn into something much bigger.

411
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,199
Speaker 1: And I think it's something to really be on the

412
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: lookout for as parents.

413
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: The second most worried about issue in my study of girls,

414
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 2: and now this was not a university study. It was

415
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 2: a survey with a handful of interviews and some focus

416
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 2: groups with girls for my book Misconnection. Number one was

417
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 2: I wonder if you can guess what do you think

418
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,359
Speaker 2: teenage girls? Number one issue was.

419
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm a little biased, but right, my sense is that

420
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 1: one of the biggest issues is body.

421
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 3: So body image was number two.

422
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 1: So besides that, I would say relationships and.

423
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 2: Parenting, relationships with friends it was yeah, yeah, I'm worried

424
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 2: about my friends and how they see me in whether

425
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: I've got any And what was fascinating about that was

426
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: so many of them linked their relationships with friends to

427
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 2: issues with appearance. Well, you know, they wanted to be popular,

428
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: but to be popular, they had to be hot. You're like,

429
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 2: there's this explicit, unmissible link when you look at the

430
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 2: when you look at the comments from girls, it's it's

431
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: an undeniable link for so many of them that they

432
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,719
Speaker 2: literally tie their value as a human being to their

433
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: physical appearance. And if I look good, then I'm a

434
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 2: valuable person. But if I don't look good, I'm worthless.

435
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 2: I'm nothing, and nobody will like me.

436
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 1: It would be incredibly hard for them not to tie

437
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 1: their value to their appearance, because that's what every cultural

438
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: message they get tells them to do. Right, That's what

439
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 1: they've been sold since they were young. Right, that their prettiness,

440
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 1: and then as they get older, their sex appeal. Right,

441
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 1: that that is their source of worth. That that will

442
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: be the ticket to success in life. It will be

443
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 1: the ticket to a happy relationship, to good peer experiences. Right,

444
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: this is a lesson that we learn over and over again.

445
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: It's really hard hard not to internalize that.

446
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 2: And there's there's that halo effect where I mean, there's

447
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: so much research on there's people who are attractive get

448
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: a on average, an easier ride in life. They're more

449
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: likely to escape speeding tickets when they get pulled over

450
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: by the police, They're more likely to be marked better

451
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: in an exam, they get a better ride. There's so

452
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 2: many studies in so many different contexts now that highlight

453
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: that physical appearance actually makes life easier.

454
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,439
Speaker 1: I would never underestimate the sort of the goods you

455
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 1: get in exchange for being sort of consistent with our

456
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: culture's beauty ideals. Right, you get a lot from that.

457
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: It's not all good though, right. You also get assumptions

458
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 1: that you're arrogant or that you're dumb sometimes right, that

459
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: you can't be smart and pretty. And I've also talked

460
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: to a lot of young women who felt like, yeah,

461
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: it was great to be identified as pretty or beautiful,

462
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: but over time you start to wonder if that's not

463
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 1: all you are. And then I talked to women who

464
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: are heading into their thirties and forties who are terrified

465
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: because they are well aware of the power they got

466
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: from being beautiful, and they're also aware that it has

467
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: an expiration date on it, and they head into middle

468
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: aged thinking what's left? Right once this goes? What's left?

469
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: You should have quote from your grandpa, Oh.

470
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: Yes, I always worry about this because I don't know

471
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: if he made this up or if he got it somewhere.

472
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: I couldn't find it online. But he always used to

473
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: tell me. He called me Nane, and he would say, Nna,

474
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: never be too proud of your youth or your beauty.

475
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: You did nothing to earn them, and you can do

476
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 1: nothing to keep them. And I know it sounds sort

477
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 1: of brutal, but I never experienced it that way, right,

478
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: what I as a child growing up like that was

479
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: his way of telling us that, hey, this this this

480
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: game was rigged. Right. You might have gotten some privileges,

481
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: you might have them now, you're not going to have

482
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: them forever, and you didn't deserve them and earn them. Right,

483
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: be proud of the things that you work for, and

484
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: build foundations for your life that you can keep. Right.

485
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: That's I think the most important lesson there.

486
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of tough love advice, but it's good.

487
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really good. What's driving this though? So

488
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: can we point the finger at any one main culprit? So?

489
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: I don't think so. You know, I'm not I'm not

490
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: interested in sort of bashing any one target. Here. What

491
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: I see is this collection of forces, you know, that's

492
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 1: that's created this toxic stew that girls and women are

493
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: swimming around in. And part of those forces we help

494
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: a lot, right when we buy into the diet industry

495
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: and the beauty industry. Right when we follow people on

496
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: Instagram who do nothing but show us how beautiful they are.

497
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: Right when we encourage this kind of thing.

498
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 3: Sometimes, oh oh, you know what you've You've just reminded me.

499
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: I saw a picture of a dinner plate set for

500
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: sale in a store. I saw it was I.

501
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: Couldn't believe what I was reading on the plate.

502
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 2: There are three circles. Okay, so there's like an inner

503
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: circle drawn on the plate. Then there's a circle halfway

504
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 2: along the plate, and then there's a circle towards the

505
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: outer rim of the plate. And there was a name

506
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: for each circle. The inner circle which was you know,

507
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 2: it was representative of the smallest portion size you might

508
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 2: put on that plate. The inner circle said skinny jeans,

509
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 2: the middle one said favorite jeans. And then the largest circle,

510
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: which you know was out near the rim taking up

511
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 2: the whole plate, said mum jeans.

512
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: Oh oh, way, we treat mothers the way we treat mothers.

513
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: Right.

514
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: I watched, you know, since we've been sort of in

515
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: lockdown here, I've been watching maybe a little more Netflix

516
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: than I should. And I stumbled across the show that

517
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: it's called The Baker and the Beauty. It was just

518
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: this little like family sitcom and there's a young woman

519
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: in it who has this line because she's pressuring her

520
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: boyfriend to get married, and she said, I'm a woman,

521
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: this is what we do. We diet, we get married,

522
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: we have children, and then we diet again. And I

523
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: was just so there was just silly little show, right,

524
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: But there was something about that line. It's like, Yeah,

525
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 1: for a lot of women, that's their life, right. You

526
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: become a mom and then you diet because you're allowed

527
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: to be a mom, but you're not allowed to look

528
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: like a mom. Right. This pressure to have the body

529
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: of a twenty year old for the rest of your life,

530
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: it's it's insane, right, It's a pressure that has gotten

531
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: absolutely worse over the years. There's not great data on it,

532
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: but I've talked to a lot of practitioners who treat

533
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: women with eating disorders, and they said, there's seeing something

534
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: kind of unusual, which is like the onset of anorexia

535
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: is showing up in the thirties and forties, just not

536
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: something you typically see. Anorexia can last a very long time,

537
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: but it tends to start much earlier than that. And

538
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: some of that is tied to the sense that that

539
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: women are feeling this pressure to do everything they can right,

540
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: to not look like someone who would wear mom jeans right,

541
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: to have the skinny jeans forever, to get botox, to

542
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: get fillers, to color your hair, to go to ten

543
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: workout classes a week, to constantly watch what you eat.

544
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: It's it's brutal. It's brutal. There's got to be more

545
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: to life than diet. Do some things and then diet again. Right,

546
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: They're just has to be.

547
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm still curious.

548
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: I know that I kind of interrupted you when I

549
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: asked that initial question of what's what's creating it?

550
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 3: What is the culport?

551
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: And I say, there's no one thing. There's this toxic stew.

552
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: But I wonder if we could actually name them. So

553
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: we've got we've got dinner plates, the reinforce this, and

554
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: we've obviously got the media and the social media. And

555
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: but are they more insidious things as well? Are there

556
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 2: things that we don't even.

557
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: Know that A.

558
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: Well, there's the beauty industry and the diet industry, which

559
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: are billions of dollars to year. They're incredibly powerful, and

560
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: they only make money if you feel unattractive, right, these

561
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: are these are products like that you'll only keep buying

562
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: if they don't work. Right. The power of these industries

563
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: to capitalize on women's vulnerability is really breathtaking. I can't

564
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: tell you how many smart, educated with it. Women will

565
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: still say things like I swear for just a moment,

566
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: I thought that mascara was going to change my life, right,

567
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: Like you just really get sold this bill of goods,

568
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: that this next thing is going to make it all okay, right,

569
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: and that the only way you're ever going to feel

570
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: like enough is if you can look like a fitness

571
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: model or look like that influencer on Instagram. It's it's

572
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: hard to see several generations of women now never feeling

573
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: like they're going to be enough. Right. That's that's a

574
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: really hard thing for me to look at. And it's

575
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: really hard for me when I find out that even

576
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: some grown women who are my heroes still feel that way, right,

577
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: That's that's a really hard thing to hear. I have

578
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: people ask all the time, like where did you find

579
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: all these women with body image issues to talk to

580
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: you for your book? And I was like, I don't

581
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: understand the question, right, I just found I didn't look

582
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: for women with body issues. I just found women, and

583
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: I talked to them about their bodies. It's all you

584
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: need to do.

585
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: So young girls, between girls, teen girls, young women, mums,

586
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: adult women, retirees.

587
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that this is just a pervasive thing.

588
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: And again, just to emphasize, it's not a man thing.

589
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: In fact, let me read something.

590
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: I wish I could read your entire book to you,

591
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: so that I could say, now, tell me about this,

592
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: but let me just read this. This was in a

593
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: chapter that you titled just Like a Woman, and I've

594
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: underlined nearly the whole chapter, but I just want to

595
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: read this bit to you. You said, think about it

596
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: in this way. If I told you that someone in

597
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: the United States was about to go under the knife

598
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: in the hopes of reshaping their appearance, you could bet

599
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: it was a woman and be correct. Around ninety percent

600
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: of the time. Internationally, eighty five to ninety percent of

601
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: surgical and non surgical cosmetic procedures are performed on women.

602
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: If you heard that a.

603
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: Young person was suffering from anorexia or bolima, I guess

604
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: it was a young woman. You'd be right nine times

605
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: out of ten. Eating disorders and plastic surgery are both

606
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: complex issues, but we can't ignore gender gaps like these.

607
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: They force us to acknowledge that men's and women's experience

608
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: in this culture are vastly different.

609
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: In important ways.

610
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: Men and women are living systematically different lives when it

611
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: comes to beauty sickness. I just want to read a

612
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: couple more lines from this particular area. I know it's

613
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: probably boring to you because you wrote it, but just

614
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: it's so compelling. Women talk about how they look more

615
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: than men do. They think about how they look more

616
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: than men do, and they're more likely than men to

617
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: engage in behaviors to alter or improve their appearance. There's

618
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: a reason no one in this culture would be surprised

619
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: to overhear a woman saying I feel so fat and ugly. Today,

620
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: we accept this type of unhappiness as part of being

621
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: a woman. Over thirty years ago, researchers coined the phrase

622
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: normative discontent to describe the phenomenon. The term suggests that

623
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: we've gotten to a place where it's considered normal for

624
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: girls or women to be deeply disappointed when they look

625
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: in the mirror. It's the girl version of boys will

626
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: be boys.

627
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: This is the first question I always get, right if

628
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: I go speak to any kind of group about this topic,

629
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: Almost always, the first question I get is what about men?

630
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: What about boys? And so I always want to be

631
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: clear that boys and men can absolutely have these struggles too, Right,

632
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: they can happen to any gender. So, but that doesn't

633
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: mean that boys and girls and men and women are

634
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: living in the same world when it comes to these issues.

635
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: So it's different for me.

636
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it can happen. And I also I'm not

637
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: arguing that it's easy to be a man either, right.

638
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: I think there are pressures that hit men differentially. So

639
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: for example, the pressure to make a lot of money,

640
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: to be powerful, to have high status. Right, that is

641
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: a pressure, a burden that men bear much more than

642
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: women do. Right. I think in some ways women are

643
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: given more freedom in those respects. But I don't think

644
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: we can argue that that men and women are facing

645
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: the same reality when it comes to a parent's focus

646
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: and so, but part of the issue is I study

647
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: women and girls. That's what I do, right, so that

648
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: is my focus. There are people who focus on body

649
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: image and men and boys who are doing excellent work.

650
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: So I don't mean to imply that that's not important

651
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: and not out there. But what fascinates me is as

652
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: a culture, this set of rules that women are just

653
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: by and large expected to follow without question, that we

654
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: would never ask men to follow. Can you imagine if

655
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: we ask men to wear high heels are something equally

656
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and you know, inefficient when it came to.

657
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: Walking or even to remove the hair from their bodies.

658
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And people say, well some men wax, and I

659
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: say absolutely right. But if you look at waxing salons,

660
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: they'll say here's our waxing menu, and then there'll be

661
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: a little part that says men's services, right, So they're

662
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: even telling you there there's a differentiation there. It's not

663
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the norm for men the way it is for women,

664
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: at least not for strate guys. I do think that

665
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: sexual minority men face a greater degree of pressure on

666
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: this front. But it's everywhere built into our culture, right.

667
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: You hear it from the minute we start talking about infants,

668
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: when we say such a pretty girl, such a pretty girl.

669
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: Oh look at this strong boy. Right, it starts very

670
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: young that we think about women's bodies, about their physicality

671
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: as existing to be looked at, right, instead of as

672
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: existing to do things.

673
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: You know, I just remembered the story one of the

674
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: guys that is a TV host for one of our

675
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: major breakfast programs nationwide around Australia. His name is Karl Stefanovic,

676
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: and a few years ago, there was a big media

677
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 2: storm when he stepped forward and said, I guess what,

678
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: I haven't changed my suit for a year. I've worn

679
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: the same suit and tie every single day on the

680
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: television for an entire year, and nobody nobody's noticed. I've

681
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: not received one single email. I've not received one single

682
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: comment on social media. Nobody's said a word about the

683
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: fact that I've been wearing exactly the same suit and

684
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: tie and.

685
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 3: The white shirt for a year.

686
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: But he stepped out and said it that day because

687
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: that same day his co host too at the time,

688
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: was a lady called Lisa Wilkinson. That day, she had

689
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: been absolutely slammed with hundreds of comments because people didn't

690
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: like the clothing that she wore on the television that day.

691
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: And this was a This was a regular occurrence. This

692
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: happens all the time. Because I'm on the TV. I'm

693
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: following a bunch of Instagram accounts for the TV hosts

694
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: that I'm interviewed by or that I work with from

695
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: time to time, and whenever they post any pictures of them,

696
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: the threads are full of comment after comment after comment

697
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: of how beautiful they are. Now they're not posting anything

698
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 2: about their looks. They're not trying to look snazzy. They're

699
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: simply saying I'm here doing this gig, or I'm at

700
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: home with the kids, or here's what I cooked for dinner.

701
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 2: And nevertheless, all the comments are about their physical appearance.

702
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: It's almost like people feel compelled to say something, they

703
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: don't know what to say, and so they comment on

704
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 2: their looks. But I can tell you I've never posted

705
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: a picture, ever posted a picture on my Instagram or

706
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: on my Facebook where people have chosen to make the

707
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 2: majority of the commentary about my physical appearance.

708
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 3: Never happened.

709
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I know that I'm not the most attractive

710
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: guy in the world, but it's never ever happened. And

711
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: I don't care that I'm not the most attractive guy

712
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: in the world. I don't have to be brad Pit.

713
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: People don't value me for my appearance. They value me

714
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: for the work that I do.

715
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: It's a super awkward place to be. I have to

716
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: tell you, I can I can go somewhere to do

717
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: a TV segment or give a talk on this topic,

718
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: and often the first thing people will say to me

719
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: is something about how I look. Even in that moment,

720
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: right it still happens. I have an author Instagram account,

721
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: which I'm not particularly good at. I don't know how

722
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: to do stories, et cetera, et cetera. But I almost

723
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: never post a picture myself. I'm not interested. I'm not

724
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: interested in people's commentary. I'm not interested in those moments

725
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: where I have to worry about how I look as

726
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm taking that picture, and what's my hair doing, and

727
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 1: should I filter it or should I not filter it.

728
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: I just don't do it right. But that's a power

729
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: I have to be able to opt out. There are

730
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: many people in jobs that can't opt out right, like

731
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: a like a woman working in news. It's an image

732
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: focused profession. There are There's a journalist I wrote about

733
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: her a little bit in Beauty Sick, Heidi Stevens at

734
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: the Chicago Tribune locally, who's got very curly hair, Like

735
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: that's it, it's just curly hair. And she could write

736
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: a column every year with a collection of little hate

737
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: mail she gets about her hair, right, like how can

738
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: you leave your hair like that? Your hair is a

739
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: rat nest? How could you do that? That's so unprofessional?

740
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: And she's not even on TV. This is all just

741
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: based on that little thumbnail picture that you see next

742
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: to a columnist. So just imagine how that gets gets

743
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: turned up, right, And when you're a woman in the

744
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: public eye, and I have to wonder all the time,

745
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: how many women would seek out jops, careers, volunteer opportunities

746
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: in the public eye but choose not to because they

747
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: don't want that kind of scrutiny about their appearents. I

748
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: think that's happening more than we talk about.

749
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: And your research shows that the cost to women in

750
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: terms of opportunity, which is what you've just described, is huge.

751
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: But it's not just that cost. It's the cost in

752
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: terms of the time. You know, when I've got to

753
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: go and do a TV spot, I walk in. They

754
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: throw a little bit of makeup sort of stuff on

755
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: my face.

756
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 3: It takes about a minute and a half.

757
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, they go, I don't know what it is, but

758
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: they put some stuff on my face, which I remove

759
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: as soon as I'm off the TV. I get those

760
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: facial wipes and get rid of it. But I'm in

761
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: and out within about a minute and a half. They

762
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: have a look at my hair and say, oh, that's fine.

763
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: They don't even sit me in the chair. Whereas the

764
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: women who I'm often appearing on the television with, They'll

765
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: have to be there at least an hour ahead of

766
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: the segment I stroll in, fifteen minutes before the segment

767
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: I'm in, I'm out, I'm done. That there at least

768
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: an hour before they get the head on their spending.

769
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 2: All that time, that time that they could be reading

770
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: a book, or that time that they could be responding

771
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: to him, all that time that they could be building

772
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: their strategic plan for their business, and it's all of

773
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: that money that they've got to spend. I don't spend

774
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: money on my appearance, but women are expected to spend

775
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: money on the messcar that's going to change their life

776
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: that you mentioned before, just the.

777
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 1: Basics, just the basic grooming. Now you're supposed to get

778
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: eyelashes glued on to your eyelashes once a month so

779
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: that it can save you time and not having to

780
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: wear a mask. Here. I used to get my nails done,

781
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: and not only did I get my nails done, but

782
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: I got them done like clear, so it wasn't you know,

783
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,479
Speaker 1: I'm spending this time and money. It's not even a color,

784
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: so it would be pretty low maintenance then. And my

785
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: feet too and I enjoyed it. I found it. It's like,

786
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: I know, it's such a privilege, we will go do

787
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: something like that, but it's super relaxing. But I found

788
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: that it got to this point where I would think, like,

789
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: oh no, I gotta like it's been spend three weeks.

790
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: I got to get my nails done and it started

791
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: to feel like this burden, and I thought, what would

792
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: happen if I just stopped? And you know what happened.

793
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: It felt weird. For a few weeks, I learned, like

794
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: any reasonable human can how to file my own nails,

795
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: and it's one less thing I have to worry about now.

796
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 3: And typing must be so much easier.

797
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: It's just it's nice, right, It's nothing now, A pedicure

798
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: still feels good. I won't lie.

799
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: But the point is you're doing it because it feels good.

800
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: You're not doing it to impress somebody. So let's move

801
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: towards the final part of this conversation. It's been so

802
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: compelling to talk with you about this, but I really

803
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: want to talk about what we can do to help

804
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: our children, both boys and girls, to get past this

805
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: this awful belief that ties you self worth to appearance

806
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: I love.

807
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: Your suggestions in Beauty Sick.

808
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: You've got the back end of the book is full

809
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: of suggestions, And something that you did was so consistent

810
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: with what I've read in the research and what I've understood,

811
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: and that is there's very little point talking to our

812
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: kids about how everything's photoshopped and saying, you know, I

813
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 2: don't believe what you see because it's all photo shopped,

814
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: Because to them, whether it's fake or not, whether they

815
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: know it's fake or not, doesn't stop it being aspirational.

816
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: You know, you're still focusing on the appearance, even if

817
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: you're saying, look at everything and be critical of it

818
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: and highlight you know, where the air brushing has happened.

819
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: All the forty thousand dollars that have spent on camera

820
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: and lighting and equipment and people, it's still in front

821
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 2: of them, It's still being noticed. So let's start with

822
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: our little ones, you know, our three, four, five, six

823
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 2: year olds.

824
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: What can parents do to reduce the likelihood that they're

825
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: going to be beauty focused?

826
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: So the thing I love to say is that they're

827
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: actually a few pretty easy things you can do that

828
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: don't cost money, and they just take some practice. And

829
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: one of them is I encourage parents to consider making

830
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: their home and appearance commentary free zone, right where you

831
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: don't talk about the shape of other people's bodies or

832
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: who's gained our lost weight, or who's ugly or pretty.

833
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: And that means you, that means people on TV, that

834
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: means peers, That means even people you don't like, right,

835
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: even the politician you don't like. It means your body

836
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: shame that person either. And so you just give this

837
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: like continuous, gentle message that we leave space for other

838
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 1: conversations in this house. That's not how we think about people.

839
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: We don't think about them in terms of whether they're

840
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: beautiful or not. Now, I do think you need to

841
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: be careful there. You don't want to move so far

842
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: as to say how you look doesn't matter. Right. Racism

843
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: is real, anti fat bias is real. Right, Like, all

844
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: of these things can still be wrestled with, But it

845
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: means that you don't send the message to your children

846
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: that a part of what determines if they're good or

847
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: not is whether they are appealing to look at. So

848
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: just practice it, right, And if you have guests to

849
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: your home and they start saying, like, oh, did you

850
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: see so and so lost weight. Just say, oh, we're

851
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: working really hard not to talk about those things so

852
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 1: much in this house. Do you mind if we change

853
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: the subject, right, It's a pretty easy thing to do,

854
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: and I love thinking about all the conversations that are

855
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: going to happen instead. Right to me, that's so fun. Right.

856
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: So that means as a parent, you have to stop

857
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: body shaming yourself.

858
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 3: And that's that's such a big one, isn't it.

859
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: As a parent, how do we make sure that the

860
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: comments that we make about our own bodies, if we

861
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: go to make them at all, which so many of

862
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: us do, how do we make sure that those comments

863
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 2: are either positive or uplifting or focused. Something that you

864
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: emphasized in your book that I've adopted immediately I thought,

865
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: this is so perfect is when we're going to talk

866
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: about our bodies, we don't talk about how they look.

867
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 3: We talk about what they do, right.

868
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: I think especially for young children, because they're learning to

869
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: use their bodies. Right, So encourage them to think about

870
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: their bodies not from this objectified perspective, not from how

871
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: do they look to other people, but from the perspective

872
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: of what do they do for you? What do they

873
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: allow you? To experience. What do they allow you to feel.

874
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: I've had some people say to me, oh, that's ablest straight,

875
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: because what if you're disabled? But that's I don't mean

876
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: that you have to be a marathon runner to appreciate

877
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 1: what your body does.

878
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 3: Like.

879
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: Our bodies do all kinds of things. Right. They allow

880
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: for creativity and communication, you know, they allow us to

881
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: connect with other people. If you have children who are

882
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: into athletics of any kind, right, they allowed that sort

883
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: of thing. Bodies are super cool, right, So teach your

884
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: children about how cool they are, like all the amazing

885
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: things they can do, and how they can care for

886
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: their bodies so that they can keep doing cool things,

887
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: but not so that they can look good to other people. Right.

888
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: The best advice is to just keep those conversations off

889
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: the table. I just don't have them.

890
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: If you were to extend that developmental trajectory from our

891
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: younger children into the older children, everything that you've just

892
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: said would obviously apply. Is there anything additional that you

893
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: would add to what parents can be doing to reduce

894
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: the focus on appearance with the tweens and teens.

895
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: It's going to get really hard in those tween years, right,

896
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: And I think you have to be very careful as

897
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: a parent not to Here's a psychological term you've probably

898
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: come across a lot in your work on parenting is reactants. Right, Like,

899
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: the minute you tell a child don't do that thing,

900
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: they're gonna want it more. And so I think you

901
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: have to step away from that temptation to say, like

902
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: you're being vain, you're being superficial, don't follow that Instagram account,

903
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: don't post selfies, don't do that. Right, you can't really

904
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: do that. You have to give children some space to experiment.

905
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: But I think one of the best gifts you can

906
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: give your child as they move into those years, no

907
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: matter what their gender is, is room to explore all

908
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: the different parts of themselves. Right, So ask them questions

909
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: about what matters to them, what's inspiring to them, what

910
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 1: they're worried about lately, what they're thinking about. I don't

911
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: think we ask our children enough questions as they get

912
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: to that age. A lot of children that age are

913
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: quite willing to talk if you ask the right question,

914
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: and if you show that you're willing to listen right

915
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: and not butt in and tell them they're wrong and

916
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: try to redirect them. And I think Giving tween girls

917
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: space to be something other than beauty queens or other

918
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: than people who are constant worried about the fact that

919
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: they're not beauty queens is one of the best things

920
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: you can do. So help them develop their interests, help

921
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: them develop their passions, and then when they move into

922
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: the teeniers here is maybe And it sound like insane

923
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: advice that I told you I love teenagers, and I do.

924
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: If your daughters in particular are struggling with these issues,

925
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: it's time to get them angry. Right. It's time to

926
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 1: talk with them about what a sick injustice this world

927
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: does to girls and women when it makes girls and

928
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: women hate their bodies. Right, It's time to ask them

929
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: questions about who benefits from that hatred, who's making money

930
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: off of it? Right? Whose life gets better when you

931
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: don't like your body, and whose life gets worse? And

932
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: what does that mean? Right? Teenagers, as you know, are

933
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: quite angry sometimes, so to me, that's an opportunity, right,

934
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: Harness that anger. Right, let them see the ways that

935
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 1: they don't like what the world is doing and set

936
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: them on the paths to make in a better world.

937
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: Teenagers are ready to make a difference. I think we

938
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: see this all around us right now. We see teenagers

939
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: doing amazing work, work quite frankly, that we should have

940
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: done right, and now they're taking it upon themselves. And

941
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: so I think you can really give space for your

942
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: teenagers to turn some of that sadness and that despondency

943
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: into appropriately targeted anger. Right, Give them a passion, give

944
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: them a cause, let them make their mark on the world.

945
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 1: I think they're way more ready to do that than

946
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 1: we give them credit for great answers.

947
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 2: Something that stands out to me from the earlier part

948
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 2: of what you were saying is just if I was

949
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: to restate it, I guess and reemphasize a little bit

950
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 2: of it. What I'm actually hearing you say is make

951
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: their world and their lives so full that they don't

952
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: have the time or the space to be worried about

953
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 2: how they look. And that doesn't mean overcram their curriculum

954
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: and show give them, give them the capacity to be

955
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: developing other things, other talents, how the strengths, other capacities,

956
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: so that they're not sitting there staring at their image

957
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: in Instagram and trying to make it look that little

958
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: bit better.

959
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: Many years ago, I am so sorry I interrupted you there.

960
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: But many years ago I tried to do a study

961
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: of young women who weren't hurting in this way, like

962
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: who felt pretty good about their bodies and weren't engaging

963
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: and eating disordered behaviors. And we found this very tiny

964
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: group of them and we just did this basic interview

965
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: about like what did your parents do growing up and

966
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: how did this happen? And what they told us is

967
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: that it was nothing magic, right, Like, yeah, they were

968
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: probably a little more likely to have these sort of

969
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: like feminist leaning parents who were like trying to do

970
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: some of this deliberately, but mostly what they said is

971
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: it's just not something we focused on in my family.

972
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: We focused on other things. Yeah, Yeah, And I think

973
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: that's the key.

974
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 2: A friend of mine, Rebecca Sparrow, she has a great

975
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: following here in Australia and one of the things that

976
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: she emphasizes is with your twein and teen girls, go

977
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 2: through their Instagram accounts with them, go through the people

978
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: that they're following and get rid of all of the

979
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: people who are focused on fashion and appearance and instead

980
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: fill up your feed with artists and poets and influencers

981
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: and people who can offer something other than a viewer appearance.

982
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 2: And it's such a simple thing to do, and I

983
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 2: wonder how often we've done it. Okay, the big question.

984
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 2: We've talked about little ones. We've talked about a tweens

985
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: and teens, But what about the mum who's listening right now,

986
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: or her husband or partner who is saying this has

987
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 2: been my wife?

988
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: How does she get past this?

989
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 2: And how does she make sure that she doesn't pass

990
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: it on to her kids, and how does a husband

991
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: or partner support her as she tries to get past it.

992
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: So I've talked to so many women who they kind

993
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: of come to this topic a little late, and they

994
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: realize I've struggled with this my whole life and I

995
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: didn't mean to, but I passed these struggles on to

996
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: my daughter, and it's too late, and I blew it.

997
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: And my message is always like, it is not too late.

998
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: Right if you have a tween or a teen, or

999
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: a young adult or even an adult daughter, it is not

1000
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: too late. And there is something I think just really

1001
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: beautiful about sitting down with your daughter and saying, I

1002
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: realize that these are the messages I've been sending to you,

1003
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: right that I haven't been happy with my body, and

1004
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: these are the ways it came out, and these are

1005
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: the ways it might have affected you. And I wonder

1006
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: if you want to work together with me to change that, Like,

1007
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: here's some things I'm going to try to do differently now,

1008
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: I wonder what you would think about that. A lot

1009
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: of the daughters I know would just start sobbing with relief, right,

1010
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: They would so appreciate that kind of raw honesty. It's

1011
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: not too late, right, It's never too late. And if

1012
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: your concerns are severe, right, if they're really affecting your

1013
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: well being, your mental health, then I would also say

1014
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: seek some help. Right. If part of how they're influencing

1015
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: your children is because the intensity of those negative emotions

1016
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: is so big that it's leaking out, right, then get

1017
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 1: some professional support in there, right, so that you can

1018
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: learn how to heal yourself up a little and then

1019
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: create a better world for your children too. But it's

1020
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: not too late, right, even if you have adult children,

1021
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: it's not too late, And it's not too late to

1022
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: call your friends out either, to say, like, I want

1023
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,760
Speaker 1: to do things differently. I don't want the first twenty

1024
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: minutes of every conversation we have to be about weight

1025
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: gain or loss. I just don't want to do that anymore.

1026
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: I have a friend who she's a junior high teacher,

1027
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: and she said she'll have these meetings with other teachers

1028
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: on zoom like we're doing now, and that the first

1029
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: few minutes they all fuss with like, oh do I

1030
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: have a double chin, showing I haven't been able to

1031
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: call her my gray that it's like this intro to

1032
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: their meeting. It's okay to just say no to that,

1033
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: to say like no, I decided I want a different

1034
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: psychological climate for myself, and it's going to start with

1035
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: me creating it and with me inviting the people I

1036
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: love to create it with me, where we're just not

1037
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: going to spend so much time on this. There's so

1038
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 1: many other cool things to spend your time on and

1039
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: your energy on, Renee.

1040
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 3: This has just been such a brilliant conversation.

1041
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: I've been fear I've gone into lecture mode, my number

1042
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: one mode.

1043
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 2: I've been as absorbed in this conversation as I was

1044
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 2: with your book. The book is called Beauty Sick, How

1045
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: the cultural obsession with appearance hurts girls and women. It

1046
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: is literally one of the best books I've read in years.

1047
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 2: It's definitely in my top five over the last handful

1048
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 2: of years, and I just loved it.

1049
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 3: I can't recommend it enough.

1050
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: Before we wrap up, can I ask you a couple

1051
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: of quick questions about those that Nissan nephew of yours?

1052
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 3: Okay?

1053
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 2: Because I always love to ask a handful of questions

1054
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: at the end of every podcast, everyone gets the same ones,

1055
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 2: rapid fire questions just about what it's like to little

1056
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 2: ones in our midst So if we asked your niece

1057
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 2: and nephew their favorite thing to do with the coolest

1058
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: auntie ever, what would they say?

1059
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: Ooh, So my niece who's around four, she's super into

1060
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: crafts and so actually for Christmas, I got her this

1061
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: giant bin full of craft supplies and that is something

1062
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: she loves right now. And I can't wait till our

1063
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: pandemic lockdown is over and she and I can make

1064
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: some mess with paints and then I really miss my

1065
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: he's just underto my nephew. I miss him so much

1066
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: because one of my favorite things to do with him

1067
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: is have him cuddle up next to me on the

1068
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: couch and read a book to him. And then when

1069
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: you finish the book, he scooches down, goes and gets

1070
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: another book, brings it back, gets back up, and I

1071
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: miss that. I miss those moments with him, So I

1072
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:46,959
Speaker 1: can't wait to do those things again.

1073
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 3: Beautiful. Thank you.

1074
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: What's been your trickiest And I don't know if you

1075
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: would have had too many with the kids being so young,

1076
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: but what's been your trickiest auntie moment?

1077
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: Oh? I will say that I made a pledge never

1078
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: to talk to my niece about her appearance, that I'm

1079
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: just not going to do it. Figure I'll leave that

1080
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: to other people in her life, and I'll be a

1081
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: different place for her. But she is into Disney princess culture,

1082
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: and it is very hard for me to sort of

1083
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: maintain an openness around that when I really don't like it.

1084
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: I really don't like those elements of the culture. And

1085
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: when she's very excited and wants to talk to me

1086
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: about her new princess thing and her pink tiara and

1087
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: all of those things, I really struggle with that.

1088
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 3: Okay, last question for you.

1089
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: If you could spend an hour with this little niece

1090
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 2: and nephew at any age at all, Let's say that

1091
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 2: isolation finishes and tomorrow afternoon at three o'clock, they're coming

1092
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: over to spend some time with you, and they're walking

1093
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 2: into the living room at whatever age you.

1094
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 3: Can choose, what age would you pick? And why?

1095
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: Oh, I can't wait until they're you know, like twelve thirteen.

1096
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: I know this sounds bizarre, but I love kids once

1097
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 1: they get some angst right once there. Once they're a

1098
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: little angry and have that intensity, and it me that's

1099
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: such a cool window into the adults they're going to

1100
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: be calm and into what they're going to care about

1101
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: and what their passions are. I can't I can't wait

1102
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: until until they get a little little adolescent moody. That's

1103
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: the age I'm interested in, and.

1104
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: That's when parents say, auntieu are the best, Please take

1105
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 2: them for a week, two weeks a year.

1106
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: Yes, my brother jokes that I will be able to

1107
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 1: adopt them at that at that time.

1108
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely perfect.

1109
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 2: Well, Renee, if people want to know more about you

1110
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: and your book, Beauty Sick, where can they go to

1111
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 2: get more information about this incredibly important and really really

1112
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:38,919
Speaker 2: smart work that you've been doing.

1113
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the kind words. People can

1114
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: go to beautysick dot com or if you're interested more

1115
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: in the academic research side of things. My lab has

1116
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: a website as well, which is Bodyanmedia dot com. And

1117
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: if you're into Instagram, it's Beauty Underscore Sick fantastic.

1118
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing this time with me

1119
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: and with our audience.

1120
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 3: Give him wonderfully generous and shared so much.

1121
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

1122
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 2: I hope you've gotten some insight into doctor Renee Engeln

1123
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 2: as a result of this Parenting in Perspective podcast. I

1124
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: love the quote from Renee's grandfather that you mentioned earlier

1125
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 2: in the podcast. Here it is again, don't be too

1126
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 2: proud of your youth or your beauty. You did nothing

1127
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: to earn them, and you can do nothing to keep them.

1128
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 3: Isn't that great?

1129
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: Well, join me next time as I talk with Ethan Cross.

1130
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 2: He's a professor at the University of Michigan, and we're going.

1131
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 3: To talk about controlling our emotions and self control.

1132
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: When I use the term self control, I mean how

1133
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: can people align their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors with their goals.

1134
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: So it's really broad. It's really like, if you want

1135
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: to act or think or feel a particular way in

1136
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: this world, how can you do that? What are the

1137
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: psychological tools that allow you to fulfill those goals?

1138
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: As professor Ethan Cross, he's a professor at psychology at

1139
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 2: the University of Michigan. He was actually involved in the

1140
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 2: Marshmallow experience. Well actually not not those ones, but his

1141
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: PhD supervisor was the guy Walter Michelle and he'll be

1142
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 2: my next guest on the Parenting in Perspective podcast as well.

1143
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 2: Just before we wrap this up, I really want to

1144
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: say thank you so very much to d Stewart who

1145
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: left a five star review at Apple Podcasts about the podcast.

1146
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: D Stewart said, fantastic parenting perspective. As the father of

1147
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 2: five young children, this podcast is fast becoming one of my.

1148
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 3: Top played podcasts.

1149
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: Very insightful, entertaining and helpful in parenting perspectives. Highly recommend

1150
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: So thank you very much D Stewart for diving in

1151
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 2: there and leaving that review. For me, it's those reviews

1152
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: that help other people to find out all about the

1153
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 2: podcast and build their families into happier families where their

1154
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: kids can thrive and flourish.

1155
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 3: And please make sure that you're too, your friends. We

1156
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 3: want to get the word out.

1157
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: If you'd like more info about how I can help

1158
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 2: your family to thrive and flourish, especially if you'd like

1159
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: to have that ongoing monthly support for as little as

1160
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: two dollars fifty a week via our amazing Happy Families memberships.

1161
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: Please visit Happyfamilies dot com dot you. We're having more

1162
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,479
Speaker 2: and more people join the family every day. It's getting

1163
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: bigger and more exciting, and we're just doing so many

1164
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 2: great things in that membership.

1165
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 3: It would be great to have you there.

1166
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 2: If you want more info, visit my Facebook page, doctor

1167
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 2: Justin Colson's Happy Families or happy Families dot com dot

1168
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 2: A you, and as always, thank you very much to

1169
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 2: Justin Royland for his work in producing the podcast making

1170
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 2: it sound absolutely fabulous, and thank you for listening to

1171
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 2: Parenting in Perspective a Happy Families podcast