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Speaker 1: For some time on the Happy Families podcast, we have

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Speaker 1: been sounding the alarm, making some noise indicating that screens

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Speaker 1: are bad for your child's socio emotional health. The critics

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Speaker 1: are still out there arguing that we don't have enough

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Speaker 1: evidence and that people like me should not be saying

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Speaker 1: the things that I'm saying, But the evidence is coming in.

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Speaker 1: Every Thursday on the podcast, we do our best to

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Speaker 1: dive into recent research that helps us as parents to

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Speaker 1: understand the world that our children are navigating and moves

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Speaker 1: us closer to better parenting, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: screen time challenges. Today we look at a brand new

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Speaker 1: meta analysis involving nearly three hundred thousand children investigating the

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Speaker 1: relationship between how much your kids are on a screen

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Speaker 1: and their social and emotional challenges. You don't want to

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Speaker 1: miss these findings, stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's

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Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast. If you knew here, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining in. Every Thursday, it's the Doctor's Desk

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Speaker 1: where we have a look at recent research and what

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Speaker 1: it tells us about how to be better parents. Kylie,

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Speaker 1: are you sick of me banging the screen time drum.

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Speaker 1: Yet well, yes and no.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because we talk about it. It feels like nearly

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Speaker 2: every day. But no, because I feel like there's so

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Speaker 2: much validation coming through the research that's landing on your desk.

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Speaker 2: You've been saying this for a really long time, and

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Speaker 2: the research is now finally caught up.

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Speaker 1: So I'm following up yesterday's conversation with doctor Brad Marshall.

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Speaker 1: If you missed it, the Unplugged psychologist walked through a

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Speaker 1: brand new study that he's done in an interview with

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Speaker 1: me about internet gaming disorder and smartphone overuse and the

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Speaker 1: impact that it has in all of the key domains

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Speaker 1: of a child's well being. It was a compelling explained

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Speaker 1: the research so well, and in some ways I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm being a little bit cheeky by sneaking in

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Speaker 1: another study about screens. But when this one came across

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Speaker 1: my desk, I wanted to have it back to back

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Speaker 1: with Brad's conversation with me yesterday because it's just so important.

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Speaker 1: So can I geek out a little bit? Why don't

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Speaker 1: you ask me? Doan, do you have any questions? Or

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Speaker 1: should I just explain the study.

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Speaker 2: First up, I'm really curious what the study showed.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm very excited for this one. So here's

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Speaker 1: here's what we've got. There's been a number of studies

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Speaker 1: done over the last handful of years that longitudinal studies

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Speaker 1: looking at whether or not over time screen use increases

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Speaker 1: children's socio emotional problems, or whether or not socio emotional

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Speaker 1: problems lead children to use screens more often. So it's

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Speaker 1: a question of causality. We can't we can't ethically do

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Speaker 1: the study here in terms of randomized controlled studies. So therefore,

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Speaker 1: longer tudinal studies and meta analysis are the very best

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Speaker 1: that we've got with me so far. Okay, total, one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty two studies met the incl usion criteria

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Speaker 1: for this systematic review. From those one hundred and thirty two,

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Speaker 1: they had to throw a couple out, they didn't quite

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Speaker 1: tick every box, ended up with one hundred and seventeen studies.

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Speaker 1: That's a big This is a big meta analysis with

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Speaker 1: two hundred and ninety two thousand, seven hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: nine children.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And essentially what they're looking at is how do

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Speaker 1: we answer this question, which direction is it going. Is

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Speaker 1: it that kids that are having problems are spending more

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Speaker 1: time on their screens, or is it kids that spend

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Speaker 1: more time on their screens are having more problems.

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Speaker 2: So we have a case study of six in our home.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, add you and me and it's eight.

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Speaker 2: And I would say it goes both ways. I watch

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Speaker 2: our children. When they are happy, healthy, strong, and have

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Speaker 2: great connective relationships, they're on their phones less. But when

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Speaker 2: they don't have that, they're on their phones more. And

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Speaker 2: because they're on their phones more, they slide further and

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Speaker 2: further down the big black rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's devastating watching it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing circles with my finger. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: think of the word. It's like this reciprocal relationship where

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Speaker 1: one thing causes the other one.

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Speaker 2: It's twenty two, Like it's just you just keep going

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Speaker 2: round in this cycle.

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Speaker 1: So here's what they found. Screens. Screen use leads to

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Speaker 1: increased behavioral and emotional difficulties, while children with existing problems

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Speaker 1: are more likely to turn to screens as a coping mechanism,

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Speaker 1: creating an endless, unhealthy, maladaptive cycle. And I want to

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Speaker 1: highlight this particular finding because this really grabbed me. The

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Speaker 1: effects were strongest for gaming, and they were also strongest

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Speaker 1: when kids exceeded recommended screen usage times. So give missus

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Speaker 1: Happy Families a PhD. I'll have to make you the

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Speaker 1: queen of the doctor's desk. That's exactly what they found.

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Speaker 1: It goes both ways. I'm just thinking of a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago. I had a particularly bad day. I was

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Speaker 1: a little bit set off. I was not using any

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Speaker 1: of the emotional regulation strategies that I teach other people

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Speaker 1: to use. I was really really struggling. And because I

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Speaker 1: was not doing well from a socio emotional perspective, I

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Speaker 1: literally said to you, I'm not doing well. I was

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Speaker 1: kind and polite about it, but I said, I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing well and I need some time out. And I

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Speaker 1: went and I silated myself in our bedroom and I

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Speaker 1: sat on my phone and I played games, which is

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Speaker 1: not what I do. Like, I'm not that guy.

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Speaker 2: And because you did that, your ability to regulate spiraled

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Speaker 2: further and further down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. When I came out of the room, I was

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Speaker 1: cranking and I'm like, right, family, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation. I'm mad the gaming didn't make me better,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't go very well. And no, it didn't.

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Speaker 1: Mind you. The kids have probably been on their phones

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Speaker 1: as well, but screens are just not associated with good outcomes.

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Speaker 1: You know. The great irony here is that I went

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Speaker 1: for a walk down at the beach earlier in the

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Speaker 1: day for about an hour, and I came back and

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Speaker 1: I felt really good, but not quite good enough. And

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Speaker 1: that's when I turned on the screen. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: played more games that day than I probably had in

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Speaker 1: the previous three months.

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Speaker 2: So here's the challenging thing. You're a highly functioning adult

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Speaker 2: who understands, recognizes, and knows the trap, and yet when

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Speaker 2: we are not at our optimal even you get caught

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Speaker 2: in it. Right, So you look at our kids who

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Speaker 2: have not had the life experience, do not understand or

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Speaker 2: recognize how enlightened the research is around this find themselves

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Speaker 2: spiraling down. But this is the hardest part of it.

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Speaker 2: How do you get out of that?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: How did these kids get out of it? Because once

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Speaker 2: you're in it, it just reminds me of that scene

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Speaker 2: from Percy Jackson when they're in the casino.

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Speaker 1: That's right, they go to the Lotus Hotel and casino.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to save the world. They get caught up

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Speaker 1: in the lobby where they've got all the games everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and it takes a long time. And then Percy is like,

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Speaker 1: hang on, this place is a trap. They lock you in,

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Speaker 1: they keep you here forever. That's exactly what they do.

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Speaker 2: And the challenge is our kids don't recognize the trap.

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Speaker 1: No no, no, no.

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Speaker 2: They get stuck in it and they just keep being

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Speaker 2: sucked in.

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Speaker 1: Immerse themselves in. After the break, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about what we can do based on this study that

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Speaker 1: was only published a couple months ago, twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: study in Psychological Ballton about electronic screen use in children's

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Speaker 1: socio emotional problems. Solutions. Next, Okay, Kylie. Three things that

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Speaker 1: I want to emphasize in terms of solutions here, critical

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Speaker 1: things that parents can do when children are struggling socially

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Speaker 1: and emotionally and they're turning to screens, or when their

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Speaker 1: usage has led to struggles socially and emotionally. The first

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Speaker 1: one is actually not about our parenting, but it's about

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Speaker 1: a conversation with our kids. And it might sound a

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Speaker 1: little bit like I'm deflecting, but it picks up on

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Speaker 1: exactly what you said just a moment ago. I think

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Speaker 1: that we, as a family with our children, need to

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Speaker 1: question the gaming industries design, not our children's character. It's

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Speaker 1: really easy to blame the kids and say you're doing

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing, you're making poor choices, you're being slack.

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Speaker 1: And it's true that there's a bit of that going on,

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Speaker 1: but I've been captured by it myself from time to time.

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Speaker 1: The gaming industry and the social media platforms, they have

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Speaker 1: never in history done anything in the best interests of

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Speaker 1: our children, and they're not doing anything in the best

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Speaker 1: interests of our children right now.

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Speaker 2: How to give them fun, honey.

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Speaker 1: The research clearly shows that gaming has uniquely harmful effects

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Speaker 1: compared to other screen activities.

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Speaker 2: Just to be clear, I was joking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know. But rather than blaming kids

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Speaker 1: for being addicted, I think we need to recognize that

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Speaker 1: the games are deliberately engineered to be compelling, and they're

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Speaker 1: just so hard to resist, and the gaming companies profit

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Speaker 1: from keeping kids engaged. They exploit our children, so they

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Speaker 1: exploit my psychological vulnerabilities. So we don't want to step

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Speaker 1: in with shame based restrictions. It's so important. We don't

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Speaker 1: step in and threaten to take phones off our kids

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Speaker 1: or anything like that if they're on the phones too much.

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Speaker 1: We've got to come up with better ways forward. Want

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Speaker 1: to have honest conversations with the children about how the

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Speaker 1: systems work and help kids to develop critical thinking about

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Speaker 1: the forces that are effectively capturing their attention. So how

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Speaker 1: do we do that? Number One, we need to collaborate

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Speaker 1: on guidelines rather than imposing limits. The more that we

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Speaker 1: impose limits force creates resistance. It just doesn't work. Research

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Speaker 1: is really clear there are benefits to staying within screen

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Speaker 1: time guidelines and recommendations. But if you turn this into

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Speaker 1: a power struggle about compliance, you are going to have

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Speaker 1: World War III in your kitchen. There's going to be

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Speaker 1: slam doors. Kids are going to get sneaky. They're going

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Speaker 1: to borrow their friends devices. Old devices still connect to

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Speaker 1: the Wi Fi. You need to learn what devices are

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Speaker 1: hooked up to your router. If you're taking device off kids,

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Speaker 1: because they will find ways around it. It just doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: We needed to do the three e'es. Explore, explain in power,

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Speaker 1: help them to understand why the limits going to be helpful,

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Speaker 1: involve them in creating family screen time agreements, focus on

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Speaker 1: what they're gaining by being off the screen, so better

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Speaker 1: quality sleep time with friends, more physical activity, more family time,

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Speaker 1: improved mood, rather than focusing on what they're losing. Kids

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Speaker 1: are just more likely to internalize healthy habits when we

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Speaker 1: go through processes like the three ease and they feel

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Speaker 1: heard and involved in the process and develop solutions themselves.

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Speaker 2: I know you touched on it, but I actually really

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Speaker 2: want to emphasize the more involved we are in our kids' lives,

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Speaker 2: the more time we spend with them in recreational pursuits

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Speaker 2: and hobbies, the less likely they're going to be caught

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Speaker 2: up in.

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Speaker 1: This yeah massive track, and more socially and emotionally healthy

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Speaker 1: they will be. Of course, it's really hard when you're

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Speaker 1: both working full time and the weather's bad and you've

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Speaker 1: got limited time and limited space, and there's all the

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Speaker 1: other things that are going on in your life as well.

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Speaker 1: But the more you can say, hey, kids, let's go

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Speaker 1: for a bike ride, let's go for a walk, and

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Speaker 1: encourage them to do it in whatever way is necessary,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes kids looking nonfun, I don't want to go anywhere,

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Speaker 1: but getting them out and doing things with them, or

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Speaker 1: sitting down and playing some games at the table. I

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Speaker 1: hate games. I just don't like them at all, but

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Speaker 1: I will play them, not often, but often enough because

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Speaker 1: I know that it's incompatible with scrolling. Right, if you're

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Speaker 1: playing a game at the table, there's no phones because

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Speaker 1: you're playing a game, you're having family time. Get them

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Speaker 1: involved with friends, that kind of stuff. And my last

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Speaker 1: idea coming out of the back of this doctor's desk

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Speaker 1: research is fundamentally we need to address the underlying needs,

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Speaker 1: not just the screen behavior. So basically, when children with

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Speaker 1: emotional difficulties are turning to screens for comfort, we have

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Speaker 1: to ask ourselves what why? Yet, what needs being met

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Speaker 1: on the screen that aren't being met in real life?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think any needs being met. The only

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Speaker 2: need that's being met is they actually don't get to

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Speaker 2: think about they get to have OO. So it's a

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Speaker 2: strategfication from their thoughts. But the reality is it's a

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Speaker 2: false sense of security because you're always thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: It's hollow and it's shallow. But I will push back

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Speaker 1: a little bit on that because the other week when

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Speaker 1: I was having that really horrible day, basically I was

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Speaker 1: having some conflict with one of the kids, and it

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Speaker 1: was blowing up. It was really ugly, and I was

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Speaker 1: feeling completely incompetent, and I turned on the game and

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Speaker 1: I got on a roll. I started to absolutely blitz,

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Speaker 1: and I just I was undefeatable, indefeatable, I could not

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Speaker 1: be beaten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I felt this false sense because as soon

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Speaker 2: as you weren't playing that game.

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Speaker 1: I felt incompetent again.

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Speaker 2: Back out the door, and you felt incompetent, right.

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Speaker 1: But I felt like I was competent, and I felt

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Speaker 1: like I was choosing, and it gave me the false

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Speaker 1: illusion of need satisfaction.

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Speaker 2: So I guess gaming and social media are very different, right,

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Speaker 2: because you can have this connection competence there. But I

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Speaker 2: think too often what happens when our kids are struggling

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Speaker 2: is they get on social media and they actually reinforce

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Speaker 2: all the messages that they've got inside their head. I'm

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Speaker 2: not good, I'm not worthy, yes, all that, because they're

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Speaker 2: watching everybody else live these amazing lives and they don't

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Speaker 2: feel like they're part of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. So we need to understand those underlying needs

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Speaker 1: and address those more than addressing the screen behavior. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The risks are real, and just like there were people

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Speaker 1: who said, oh, no, smoking is not bad for you,

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Speaker 1: even though the research was coming out by bit trickling through,

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Speaker 1: the risks are real and we're seeing more and more

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Speaker 1: research arrive that tells us that screens are than new smoking.

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Speaker 1: They're a really, really big challenge and we need to

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Speaker 1: address it. Our goal is to help our children to

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Speaker 1: develop a diverse toolkit for managing life's difficulties. The screen,

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Speaker 1: frankly should not be in the toolkit. I just don't

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Speaker 1: think that it's an effective tool for addressing any of

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Speaker 1: the challenges that life throws at us adaptively. And this

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Speaker 1: brand new research published in Psychological Bulletin is some more

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Speaker 1: evidence of that. We will link to the study in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. It's actually really compelling. The whole study

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Speaker 1: is available for anybody to read. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: subscribe or pay or download anything. It's all there. You

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Speaker 1: can get access to it. If you think that this

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Speaker 1: podcast will make your family happier or could help somebody

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Speaker 1: who's going through some screen time challenges, we'd love for

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Speaker 1: you to share this episode, share the podcast, share yesterday's

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Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Brad Marshall, just click those share buttons,

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Speaker 1: takes about ten or fifteen seconds. Pass it along and

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Speaker 1: make somebody's family happier. The Happy Family's podcast is produced

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Speaker 1: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides admin,

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Speaker 1: research and other support, and more information and more resources

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Speaker 1: are available at happyfamilies dot com, dot a u