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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now today, I'm

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast answering your questions listener questions at

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Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot A. You it's a super

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Speaker 1: simple system to use. Just scroll down to see the podcasts,

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Speaker 1: press record and start talking. Today we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about sleep issues. What do you do with a

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Speaker 1: nine year old that wants to sleep in your bed?

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Speaker 1: And well, it's not quite working out the way you

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Speaker 1: thought life would. And secondly, what about those sneaky five

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Speaker 1: year olds that seem to love stealing. That's coming up

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Speaker 1: on the podcast today. Once again, the super simple system.

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Speaker 1: Ask your questions about making your family happier, making your

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Speaker 1: relationships stronger, improving you well being. In fact, you can

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Speaker 1: kind of ask me just about anything happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot AU. Just click the record button and start talking.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 1: That's literally it. Here we go. Question number one, Hi.

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Speaker 2: Justin and Kylie and Caroline from Bogbry. I'd love to

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Speaker 2: know if you have any thoughts about how we can

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Speaker 2: help our son to stay in his own medal night

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Speaker 2: so he shares a room with his two siblings. One's

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Speaker 2: older one is younger. He takes a very long time

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Speaker 2: to go to sleep every night, and my husband or

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Speaker 2: had to sit at his door until he goes to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Every night. He wakes up and comes into our bed

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Speaker 2: at some point. This is partly my fault because I

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Speaker 2: let him come into our bed quite a lot when

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Speaker 2: he was much younger and much moreer. He has just

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Speaker 2: turned nine. He doesn't like to talk about this, and

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Speaker 2: he becomes very upset whenever we try to encourage him

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Speaker 2: to stand in his own bed, and we know that

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Speaker 2: he feels very anxious, especially at nighttime. I'd love to

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Speaker 2: hear any thoughts he might have.

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Speaker 1: Caroline really appreciate the question. This is one of those

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Speaker 1: things that has bug parents for decades, maybe more. The

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Speaker 1: kids you think they've got, you've got them to sleep,

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Speaker 1: and then you hear that pit a patter of feet

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Speaker 1: on the carpet or on the floorboards, and you just think, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, I'm never going to get any time alone.

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to get the sleep that I need.

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Speaker 1: These kids starfish in the bed. It's so frustrating. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about history before we move on to solutions here,

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Speaker 1: because I think this explains why it's such an ongoing

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Speaker 1: challenge for so many families. In pre industrial societies, not all,

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Speaker 1: but in the majority, overwhelming majority across time across culture,

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Speaker 1: co sleeping has been the norm. Families would share a

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Speaker 1: single room. Once beds were invented, they would share a

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Speaker 1: single bed, mainly for warmth, also for security. It's been

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Speaker 1: prevalent across social class, across culture, with hardly any distinction

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Speaker 1: between kids and adults having their own space. As communities

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Speaker 1: became less agrarian and more industrially focused, we started to

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Speaker 1: see this. I don't know how else to describe it

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Speaker 1: other than an emergence of separate spaces. Societies have become wealthier,

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Speaker 1: families have had more income at their disposal, homes have

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Speaker 1: grown larger, and separate rooms start to emerge, mainly just

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Speaker 1: for adults. Kids often continued to share their sleeping spaces,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they even slept with the servants. But in

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Speaker 1: the eighteenth and eighteenth century nineteenth century, the concept of

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Speaker 1: childhood as being distinct from adulthood, a distinct stage of life,

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Speaker 1: starts to develop, and this shift leads to an increased

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Speaker 1: attention to children's needs, including this idea that they're going

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Speaker 1: to benefit from their own space. Once you also factor

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Speaker 1: in once we hit the twentieth century, the nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: and beyond having separate rooms, it becomes almost the normal, well, no,

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Speaker 1: it does. It becomes the Norman Western society. And a

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Speaker 1: large part of this was affluence. If you could say

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Speaker 1: that you had enough bedrooms in your home that your

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Speaker 1: children all had their own rooms, that was just a

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Speaker 1: signal that you had plenty, you were doing really well.

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Speaker 1: So we've got larger homes, we've got more affluence. But

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Speaker 1: as well as that, we start to see this really

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Speaker 1: increased emphasis on privacy and increased emphasis on individualism. And

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Speaker 1: as we continue to see this idea of kids becoming

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Speaker 1: independent and separating themselves from parents, these evolving ideas around

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Speaker 1: childhood have continued through the nineteen hundreds, that's what happens there.

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Speaker 1: So this big shift is not consistent with how humans

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Speaker 1: have been for millennia. And I think that's a really

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Speaker 1: big driver of why you've got so many kids today

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Speaker 1: who still say I don't want to sleep on my own,

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Speaker 1: I want to be near you. We're pushing against evolution,

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Speaker 1: we're pushing against connection and belonging and all of the

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Speaker 1: things that are so important for kids well being, So

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Speaker 1: what do we do? First thing I want to emphasize,

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Speaker 1: and I've talked about this a lot on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: the average age of a child being able to regulate

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Speaker 1: their emotions reasonably well most of the time in most circumstances,

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Speaker 1: it's about nine thereabout. Sometimes usually girls get their regulation

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Speaker 1: under control a bit youngest, seven or eight, boys sometimes nine, ten,

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Speaker 1: even eleven. I've got no idea, Caroline, whether your kid

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Speaker 1: I was near adverse or not. But being that he's

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Speaker 1: a boy, and if he is near a diverse that

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Speaker 1: is going to increase the likelihood that emotion regulation will

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Speaker 1: be diminished, particularly late at night, particularly when he's tired,

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Speaker 1: throwing as well the dispositional anxiety that you've highlighted, and

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Speaker 1: you're going to get a kid who just doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to be alone, especially at night. The second thing I

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Speaker 1: want to emphasize is that location doesn't matter as much

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Speaker 1: as sleep matters. Sleep anywhere is basically my advice. Well,

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Speaker 1: maybe not always anywhere, that might not be appropriate, but

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Speaker 1: as long as he has got a mattress and a pillow,

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Speaker 1: so long as he's got it together. This is the

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Speaker 1: rule that we had in our home with our kids

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Speaker 1: when they would not stop coming into our bedroom. We

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Speaker 1: pretty much said, you know what, you can sleep in

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Speaker 1: our bed for as long as you want, but we're

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Speaker 1: not going to let you date until you have figured

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Speaker 1: out how to sleep in your own bed. Oh, and

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Speaker 1: number two also have to be sixteen or above. So

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Speaker 1: that were the two conditions for dating sixteen or above,

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Speaker 1: and we've kind of weakened that a bit and made

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Speaker 1: it fifteen and above. And you've got to be sleeping

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Speaker 1: in your own bed. You know what. The kids figured

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Speaker 1: it out. I'm kind of joking there, but also kind

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Speaker 1: of not. What I'm emphasizing is that developmentally, he will

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Speaker 1: grow through this, he will grow out of it. So

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Speaker 1: let's move on to the third thing I want to emphasize,

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Speaker 1: and that's this, if he comes to you in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night, get out of bed and go

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Speaker 1: and sleep in his bed, or send dad to go

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Speaker 1: and sleep in his bed. Nothing else is going on.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing that you want to have happen that will

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Speaker 1: interfere with your sleep at this point of the night,

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Speaker 1: So just switch beds, do whatever it takes to make

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Speaker 1: him feel comfortable. And again, let me emphasize he will

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Speaker 1: grow out of it. Sixteen year olds don't sleep with

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Speaker 1: mom under normal circumstances, so I don't think that you're

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Speaker 1: going to have any major issues there over time. It's

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Speaker 1: just an inconvenience right now, it will get better. Be patient,

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Speaker 1: let him know that eventually, you know he'll sort it out.

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Speaker 1: As confidence in him, and make the most of those

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Speaker 1: times where you do get to sleep in your own

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Speaker 1: bed without being interrupted. Okay, let's move on to question

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Speaker 1: number two. We've got a sneaky five year old with

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Speaker 1: kate h justin.

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Speaker 2: The other day, my five year old snuck into my

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Speaker 2: handbag to take a piece of chewing gum purpose value

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Speaker 2: while I wasn't looking, and then tube the gum, which

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Speaker 2: she knows I don't want her do it. Should I

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Speaker 2: be worried about this sneaky behavior? The same five year

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Speaker 2: old bites her neils and constantly has a finger in

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Speaker 2: her mouth. She cannot be holding a soft toy or

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Speaker 2: blank chewing or sucking a piece of it. What is

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Speaker 2: this about? Is it a man behavior my husband buys

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Speaker 2: his nails or is it psychological? It was a struggle

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Speaker 2: to stuck to pacify it as four years old or

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Speaker 2: is she missing something connection? Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go through this. I want to start with

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Speaker 1: the sucking fingers. Some people will encourage you to get

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Speaker 1: psychological or medical help for this. Often it involves some cruelty,

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Speaker 1: like some gross stuff on their fingers. I'm just not

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Speaker 1: a big fan of it. Most of the time, kids

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Speaker 1: will grow out of it, have a soft conversation about it,

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Speaker 1: Remind them every now and again, ask them if it's

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Speaker 1: bothering them, ask them what you can do to support them.

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Speaker 1: I think that with a five year old, they're typically

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Speaker 1: going to grow out of it. If she doesn't, then

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Speaker 1: go and have a chat with the doctor about some ideas,

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Speaker 1: maybe booking with a psychologist down the track and see

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Speaker 1: what happens there. But most of the time kids do

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Speaker 1: grow through this reasonably, safely, and reasonably well. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the stealing. I don't know what it is about

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Speaker 1: five year olds. It seems like this is the age

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Speaker 1: where kids start to really get their head around HM.

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Speaker 1: I can have something I'm not supposed to have it.

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Speaker 1: It's not mine, but it looks good. And it's really

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Speaker 1: important to emphasize this because of limited self regulation and

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Speaker 1: his life for gratification. This is a pretty typical stage

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Speaker 1: where kids do steal stuff. I remember our eldest when

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Speaker 1: she was five, she pinched a Mars bar from the

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Speaker 1: shops and so much to back into the shops and

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Speaker 1: we made a hand it over to the man behind

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Speaker 1: the counter, and she had to apologize and he was

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Speaker 1: good about it. He said, well, make sure you don't

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Speaker 1: do it again, and thanks for coming in and dropping

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Speaker 1: it off. But underneath, I think he was seeding because

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Speaker 1: so many people steal stuff. But he was very nice

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Speaker 1: about it. But it was a really, really difficult situation

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Speaker 1: for my five year old, and I'm not quite sure

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Speaker 1: that the message got through anyway. Let's talk about this.

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Speaker 1: Stealing is normal, it is annoying. It is developmentally appropriate.

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Speaker 1: Sense of ownership, that is, it's mine or it's yours

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Speaker 1: starts to kick in somewhere around two to three years

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Speaker 1: of age. Property rights, though property rights don't kick in

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Speaker 1: until maybe four or five years of age. That is,

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Speaker 1: I own this, and I understand that taking something from

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Speaker 1: somebody else is wrong. Why do they do it, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a lack of executive function. They don't know how

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Speaker 1: to delay gratification. They see something, they feel frustrated that

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Speaker 1: they can't have it. They've got an inability to tolerate

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Speaker 1: that frustration, so they decide to grab it. They have

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Speaker 1: low impulse control. Sometimes they're bored, Sometimes they just want

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Speaker 1: our attention. Think there's also another thing, especially at this age,

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Speaker 1: and that's this thing called theory of mind, the ability

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Speaker 1: to see inside somebody else's head and take their perspective.

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Speaker 1: All of these things combined add up to a perfect

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Speaker 1: storm for why four, five and six year olds are

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Speaker 1: pretty likely to pinch stuff if they get the chance,

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Speaker 1: and they lack that impulse control. So what do we

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Speaker 1: do about it? Kate? What do we do with our kiddo? Is?

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Speaker 1: I don't know? Has what do you call it? Sticky fingers?

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Speaker 1: When when they pinch stuff? A number one, stay calm.

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Speaker 1: Big reactions are really unlikely to help here. Children do

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Speaker 1: not respond well to harshness. They just get sneaky and

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Speaker 1: next time they decide that they don't want to get caught.

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Speaker 1: There's no internalization of the behavior that we're trying to promote. Instead,

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Speaker 1: children just think I got caught, I got in trouble.

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Speaker 1: I've got to be better next time. What we're really

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Speaker 1: looking for instead is an explore explain in power methodology.

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Speaker 1: So exploring with a five year old why did you

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Speaker 1: take it? It's unlikely that they're going to have sufficient

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Speaker 1: insight to say, well, I'm young, I don't have full

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Speaker 1: theory of mind development yet I was a little bit bored,

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Speaker 1: and my capacity to control my impulses and tolerate frustrations

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Speaker 1: is quite low at my age, so developmentally, I'm just

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Speaker 1: not where you want me to be. They won't say

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Speaker 1: that sounded so funny, So they're not going to say

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Speaker 1: that to you in response to your explorations. But they

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Speaker 1: might say because I wanted it, or because my friends

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Speaker 1: had one, or because I was hungry. I mean, they

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Speaker 1: may have some basic responses when you explore what made

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Speaker 1: you think it was okay to take something that didn't

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Speaker 1: belong to you. The critical thing here, though, is explanation,

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Speaker 1: And with an explanation, you can give them a lecture

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Speaker 1: and say, well, it's wrong to steal on his why,

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Speaker 1: or alternatively, you can say to your five year old,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me why you think it's wrong to

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Speaker 1: take things that don't belong to you. They're much more

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Speaker 1: likely to internalize during the explained phase if they're answering

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Speaker 1: the questions rather than rather than you giving them a lecture.

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Speaker 1: And then when it comes to empowering, this is a

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Speaker 1: tricky one. So for a five year old, how do

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Speaker 1: you empower them? The conversation goes like this, what do

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Speaker 1: you think we should do about what's been stolen? But

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Speaker 1: then there's a part b, what do you think we

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Speaker 1: should do so this doesn't happen next time. What you're

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Speaker 1: ideally looking for is some sort of restitution, some sort

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Speaker 1: of return. If they've stolen a Mars bar from the shop,

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Speaker 1: for example, there's a willingness to take it back, and

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Speaker 1: it will be hard for them, But if they can

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Speaker 1: agree and determine that it is worthwhile, you can support

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Speaker 1: them all the way. You're not going to march them

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Speaker 1: in there and leave them to apologize on their own.

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Speaker 1: You're going to carry them in and give them a

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Speaker 1: hug and say to the store owner, we need to

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Speaker 1: have a chat with you. There's been a bit of

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Speaker 1: an issue, and you will help them through that. So

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Speaker 1: long as they're on board with it, that's going to

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Speaker 1: be the best way to do it. I still think

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Speaker 1: there's some value in taking them in any way and

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Speaker 1: teaching them the lesson they do need to learn not

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Speaker 1: to steal, but the more non punitive you can be,

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Speaker 1: the better in terms of what do we do next time.

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Speaker 1: This is where they come up with solutions like I

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Speaker 1: ask for help, I ask if I can have it,

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Speaker 1: I save up my pocket money. We find a way

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Speaker 1: parent supportively can help their children get through that. Explore, explain,

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Speaker 1: and empower. There are two other things that I want

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Speaker 1: to mention briefly. Number one, avoid scare tactics. Don't bring

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Speaker 1: the police in, don't monster them, don't come down heavy handed.

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Speaker 1: You're dealing with a five year old. Now, if you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with a fifteen or a sixteen or a seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old, I think that it's appropriate you get a

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Speaker 1: bit more heavy handed. Again, you're not going to try

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Speaker 1: and scare them. You want to internalize them here, but

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Speaker 1: they're old enough at that point to know better and

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Speaker 1: they should recognize the significant ramifications associated with their behavior.

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Speaker 1: And lastly, the final thing that I would say is monitor,

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Speaker 1: like when you're going into a situation where those sticky

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Speaker 1: fingers might come out and they might have an inclination

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Speaker 1: to snabble something and stick it in their pocket and

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Speaker 1: run away with it. Just keep an eye on them.

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Speaker 1: Let them know that you're going to keep an eye

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Speaker 1: on them because you want them to make safe, healthy,

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Speaker 1: wise decisions. Ultimately, teaching values takes a really long time,

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Speaker 1: takes a lot of effort, but internalization is what matters most,

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Speaker 1: and these ideas should get you there. Absolutely love answering

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Speaker 1: your questions about making your family happier, improving relationships, boosting

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Speaker 1: well being. You can submit your questions via the super

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Speaker 1: simple system at happyfamilies dot com dot au. Just go

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Speaker 1: to the homepage, click on the record button at the

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Speaker 1: podcast section. Start talking. Let me know how it can

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Speaker 1: help a love being of service. That's literally all you've

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Speaker 1: got to do. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: the wonderful Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: more information about making your family happier, you can find

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Speaker 1: us on all of the socials at doctor Justin Colson's

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Speaker 1: Happy Families