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Speaker 1: From the Daily Os.

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Speaker 2: My name is Billy fit Simon's and this is no

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Speaker 2: silly questions. This is the podcast where we break down

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Speaker 2: the big issues for young people in the lead up

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Speaker 2: to the federal election, which is now less than.

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Speaker 1: A month away.

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Speaker 3: On my twenty one.

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Speaker 2: Today we're talking about vaping. Now, this is one of

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Speaker 2: the issues that matters to young people a lot, but

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Speaker 2: it isn't really spoken about by politicians very regularly. In fact,

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Speaker 2: we found it harder than you might expect to find

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Speaker 2: politicians who were willing to speak to us on the topic.

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Speaker 2: Vaping use in Australia is on the rise and it

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Speaker 2: has some experts worried. Actually, according to the Public Health

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Speaker 2: Chair of the Cancer Council, we're seeing quote a public

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Speaker 2: health crisis rapidly unfolding before our eyes.

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Speaker 4: I think because well, honestly, I'm just shamefully addicted. I

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Speaker 4: vant it's yummy and iron bored. I vote because I'm addicted.

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Speaker 1: It just tastes so good grip.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's look at what the current laws in Australia

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Speaker 2: on vapes are. So right now, it's illegal to buy, possess,

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Speaker 2: or use liquid nicotine, which is found in most vapes

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Speaker 2: in all states and territories in Australia without a prescription.

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Speaker 2: The only exception to that is in South Australia, and

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Speaker 2: since October of last year, the importation of nicotine e

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Speaker 2: cigarettes has been banned unless you have a prescription. So

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Speaker 2: what does this tell us, Well, the government is aware

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Speaker 2: that more and more people are vaping and they're grappling

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Speaker 2: with what to do about it. Today, we're looking at

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Speaker 2: what the different perspectives are on the issue. One person

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Speaker 2: I spoke to wants the laws to be stricter and

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Speaker 2: the other wants vapes to be legalized and regulated. Yes.

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Speaker 5: So the name is doctor Michelle John Janellis and I'm

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Speaker 5: a senior research fellow at the University of Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: I spoke to doctor Michelle John Janellis.

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Speaker 5: So my interest in vaping stuff guarded probably about six

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Speaker 5: or seven years ago. Now, the original research that I

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Speaker 5: did looked at sort of use in young adults, so

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Speaker 5: eighteen to twenty four year olds, what they sort of

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Speaker 5: think about in terms of vaping, their perceptions of it,

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Speaker 5: whether those who used e cigarettes were at greater risk

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Speaker 5: of potentially becoming smokers later on down the track.

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Speaker 2: Doctor John Jennellis recently wrote an article for The Sydney

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Speaker 2: Morning Herald titled Australia is failing its youth on vaping harm.

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Speaker 2: Here's what she says the government needs to do differently.

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Speaker 5: Oh gosh, there are lots of things that I would

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Speaker 5: like the government to do. We know that things like

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Speaker 5: flavorings are appealing to youth in particular, so my argument

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Speaker 5: there would be prohibiting flavors from being sold. I think

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Speaker 5: that now that the government or the TGA has allowed

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Speaker 5: people to go to their GP for a prescription of

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Speaker 5: liquid nicotine, there is no need for any re tail

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Speaker 5: store to be selling these products. So closing the retail

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Speaker 5: shop front, I think is also is also really really important.

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Speaker 5: I think we need better well, we need better enforcement

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Speaker 5: of stopping these products from entering Australia, especially the nicotine ones.

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Speaker 5: And I think we need to get rid of the

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Speaker 5: disposable ones, the disposable products which are so harmful to

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Speaker 5: the environment and can contain so much more nicotine than

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Speaker 5: your regular devices. So you know, there's lots of things

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Speaker 5: I would argue for that. I think certainly the banning

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Speaker 5: flavored non nicotine ones would be probably quite high on

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Speaker 5: my list.

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Speaker 2: She also said to me that the biggest issue here

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Speaker 2: is about how accessible vatees are to young people, especially adolescents.

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Speaker 5: The piece that I wrote for Sydney Morning, Harold was

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Speaker 5: that we do need to do a lot more in

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Speaker 5: that space to make sure that you know, children and

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Speaker 5: adolescence in particular don't have access to these chemicals from

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Speaker 5: you know, year seven eleven and any convenience store.

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Speaker 2: When I was researching this topic, one politician's name kept

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Speaker 2: coming up, Senator Matt Canavan. He's from the Coalition, so

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Speaker 2: alongside the Liberal Party, he's part of the two parties

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Speaker 2: who are currently in government. He believes that vaping should

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Speaker 2: be legalized and regulated. In other words, he essentially wants

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Speaker 2: vaping to be treated just like cigarettes and alcohol are.

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Speaker 2: Before we talked about the specific issue, I had a

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Speaker 2: bit of a left of field question for him, And

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Speaker 2: this might be a weird question. Do you vate yourself?

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Speaker 4: No, I until recently had never vaked, and then I

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Speaker 4: sort of took up the cause of faithing a little

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Speaker 4: bit unexpected.

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Speaker 3: Liam and I have tried it since.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not something I do on a regular basis.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, Senator Canavan started a petition with some

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Speaker 2: of his colleagues to over turn his own government's ban

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Speaker 2: on e cigarettes. Here's what he said about his view

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Speaker 2: on the ban.

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Speaker 4: It seems to me that the New Zealand regulations could

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Speaker 4: almost be just basically transferred over to Australia. I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: be in smoking though, like Ja Cinder Dan has more

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Speaker 4: recently done. That's only been a recent decision. But I

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Speaker 4: do think that just allowing vaping in retail outlets under

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Speaker 4: the same regulations as cigarettes, banning advertisement for vaping products,

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Speaker 4: cracking down on any provision of vaping to school children

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Speaker 4: or underaged children, and also I would also look. I

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Speaker 4: do think a serious look would have to be made

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Speaker 4: at some of the different flavors that are offered, that

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Speaker 4: some of them seemingly clearly targeted at children. Not comfortable

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Speaker 4: with that, but I think the New Zealand system is

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Speaker 4: the place to start.

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Speaker 2: So essentially, Senator Canavan and doctor John Janellis both believe

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Speaker 2: that there should be a crackdown on how accessible vaping

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Speaker 2: currently is for adolescents.

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Speaker 1: What they don't.

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Speaker 2: Agree on, though, is whether it should be legal for adults.

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Speaker 2: Senator Canavan believes vaping should be treated just like other

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Speaker 2: not so healthy things like alcohol, for example.

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Speaker 4: The science is absolutely clear that these vaping products have

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Speaker 4: helped millions of people around the world get off smokes,

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Speaker 4: and smoking is very dangerous of course, to your health.

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Speaker 4: I'm not saying I've never promoted vaping. It's certainly not

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Speaker 4: a health measure, and I don't even encourage people to

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Speaker 4: do it. But ultimately we all become adults, and lots

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Speaker 4: of us do things that aren't necessarily of the best health.

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Speaker 4: We drink, we ride in too fast cars, or do

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Speaker 4: different things that might be dam your health. But as adults,

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Speaker 4: you get to make that choice, and to me, vaping

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Speaker 4: is a lesser of two evils by fast.

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Speaker 2: Doctor John Janellis, who has studied vaping for the past

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Speaker 2: six or so years, says this isn't true.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so there was a comprehensive review that was recently

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Speaker 5: published last week from Australian National University, and that looked

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Speaker 5: at all the evidence worldwide. Actually, and you know the

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Speaker 5: various harms that ecigrets cause and the degree of certainty

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Speaker 5: around that. The I guess the biggest sort of risk

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Speaker 5: is the idea that people who use e cigarettes non

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Speaker 5: smokers who use e cigarettes are at greater risk of

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Speaker 5: them going on to use cigarettes later on down the track,

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Speaker 5: and then of course being susceptible to all the diseases

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Speaker 5: that come from that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what does doctor John Janellis say in response

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Speaker 2: to Senator Canavan's argument that we should legalize vaping because

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Speaker 2: it helps people to quit smoking.

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Speaker 5: So I'd argue that these products have not been approved

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Speaker 5: by the Therapeutic Goods Administration. So if you're going to

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Speaker 5: argue that these products are therapeutic and can help people quit,

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Speaker 5: then you And when I say you, I mean that

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Speaker 5: the industry should submit a product to the Therapeutic Goods at Administration,

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Speaker 5: just like every other therapeutic product has to get approved. Vaccines,

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Speaker 5: you know your panetol. Absolutely, any medication that you take

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Speaker 5: for a particular reason must get approved. So my argument

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Speaker 5: is that these products should also be approved. Why are

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Speaker 5: we allowing them to be sold at a convenience store

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Speaker 5: without that approval? And I guess my second point as

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Speaker 5: well outside of that, is if someone is genuinely using

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Speaker 5: these products to quit smoking, they can. You know, the

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Speaker 5: TGA has allowed this pathway where you can go to

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Speaker 5: your GP. You can talk to them about quitting smoking.

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Speaker 5: The GP can prescribe you nicotine, and you can go

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Speaker 5: to your pharmacy and you can access that to quit smoking.

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Speaker 5: That doesn't mean that we now need to allow liquid

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Speaker 5: nicotine to be sold at your local convenience store.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting point. Doctor John Jennellis brings up the

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Speaker 2: fact that you can currently legally access a vate with

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Speaker 2: a prescription if you are using it to quit smoking.

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Speaker 2: I asked Senator Canavan about this, So why is it

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Speaker 2: necessary to extend who can legally access spapes if people

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Speaker 2: who do need it for that reason can already get it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Look, I think there's been a lot of problems with

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Speaker 4: the prescriptions in the past. The anecdotal evidence I received

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Speaker 4: recently is it's a little more readily available.

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Speaker 3: There are people doing it online and what have you.

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Speaker 4: We did have a situation companies ago, I think, I

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Speaker 4: mean about eight doctors could provide prescriptions or were a

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Speaker 4: credit to do so. That seems to have changed, and

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Speaker 4: so I think we're in a better position that we

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Speaker 4: were facing year and a half ago, where it would

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Speaker 4: have just been almost impossible, very very difficult, Whereas now,

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Speaker 4: if you want legalid nagotine. There is a legal means

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Speaker 4: and way to do that, and albeit with a little

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Speaker 4: bit of paperwork. Look, I just still think though, notwithstanding that,

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Speaker 4: I still think I don't see the rationale to require

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Speaker 4: a prescription here. I mean, if we allow people to

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Speaker 4: go and buy a cigarette at a petrol station without

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Speaker 4: any you don't have to go see a doctor, certainly

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Speaker 4: don't get a prescription for it, and you go get it.

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Speaker 4: I don't understand why vaping shouldn't be similarly treated, because

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Speaker 4: my concern here is that, look, if you need a

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Speaker 4: prescription every time to go and buy it, Obviously, smoking

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Speaker 4: and nicotine is an addictive, somewhat impulsive decision, and it's

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Speaker 4: clear it would be clear to me that some people

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Speaker 4: may may revert back to smoking when and if they

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Speaker 4: haven't got the right paperwork or as I say, they

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Speaker 4: just say I need needs of nigotine.

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Speaker 2: Now, so true, that's also true for vaping that it's

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Speaker 2: quite read.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't think so.

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Speaker 4: Look, I'm not a vapor but there I haven't seen,

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Speaker 4: well actually noticed that we still have a situation where

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Speaker 4: vaping products are only allowed in pharmacies out of retail,

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Speaker 4: so you cannot service stations, supermarkets cannot sell vaping products.

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Speaker 3: It's illegal in austrangth them to do so.

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Speaker 2: Amidst this discussion, I also asked Senator Canavan if he's

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Speaker 2: concerned that he's pushing to legalize a product that could

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Speaker 2: potentially be extremely damaging to people's health. Here's what he said, So,

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Speaker 2: if we were to legalize it would be not then

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Speaker 2: be ignoring the evidence found by some scientists that vapes

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Speaker 2: could be just as dangerous as tobacco.

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Speaker 3: Well, I haven't seen that evidence.

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Speaker 4: We had a number of scientists provide evidence to our

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Speaker 4: Senate inquiry, and there were a couple in Australia who

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Speaker 4: tried to suggest mostly government funded or government certainly government

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Speaker 4: funded or government employed scientists who seem to be trying

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Speaker 4: to back up the zekest here in Australia. All of

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Speaker 4: the international experts overseas he's had the very opposite view

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Speaker 4: that came to the Senate inquiry. Vaping products are clearly

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Speaker 4: less harmful than cigarettes. There's a study widely quoted that

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Speaker 4: they're ninety five percent less harmful. And look, when looking

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Speaker 4: at these studies, I think the figures are not as

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Speaker 4: precise as some might suggest, but they're clearly a lot less,

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Speaker 4: a lot less harmful.

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Speaker 2: Here are some facts from the a U study that

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Speaker 2: doctor John Jannellis spoke about before. It's not only nicotine

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Speaker 2: that scientists are worried about. A study of the contents

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Speaker 2: of the smoke from a non nicotine bait found two

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty three unique chemicals, of which thirty eight

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Speaker 2: were listed poisons. Also found direct evidence that vaping can

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Speaker 2: lead to addiction, poisoning, seizures.

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Speaker 1: And lung injury.

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Speaker 2: It also found some less direct evidence that indicated vaping

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Speaker 2: could affect blood pressure and heart rate, lung function, and

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Speaker 2: adolescent brain development. Now, doctor John Denellis did point out

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Speaker 2: that the truth is the evidence is still unfolding. The

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Speaker 2: true impact of vapes on our health is not yet clear.

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Speaker 5: What the report also concluded was, we actually don't have

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Speaker 5: a lot of evidence at the moment. It is still

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Speaker 5: coming out. Even though ecigarettes have been around for about

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Speaker 5: ten fifteen years, you know, we still don't know that

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Speaker 5: much about them, and it took decades for us to

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Speaker 5: realize that tobacco cigarettes caused cancer. So we certainly don't

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Speaker 5: want to be letting these products out into the open

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Speaker 5: when we don't know what's happening with them yet.

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Speaker 2: She worries that we're right now in a similar position

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Speaker 2: to where we were with tobacco a few decades ago,

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Speaker 2: where it was widely used before the true health impacts

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Speaker 2: were known.

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Speaker 5: So I think we are at that critical juncture where

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Speaker 5: if we do open up and allow these products to

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Speaker 5: be widely available, we definitely could end up in the

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Speaker 5: same position that we were in with smoking, or that

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Speaker 5: we're currently in with smoking. So allowing cigarettes to be

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Speaker 5: consumer products was a historical mistake, and we are trying

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Speaker 5: really hard not to make that same mistake with these cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: All right, So we know that Senator Canavan has been

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Speaker 2: trying to convince his own party room to change the law.

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Speaker 2: So how successful has he been.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, I think it's a common knowledge that across

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Speaker 4: the level of national parties there's a common view that

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Speaker 4: there should be.

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Speaker 3: An easy up of the regulations here.

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Speaker 4: I can't speak for everybody, but there's a common view

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Speaker 4: that it's far too strict and, as I said, out

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Speaker 4: of step with the rest of the world. I believe

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Speaker 4: from memory it was about twenty eight my colleagues who

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Speaker 4: signed that letter to the Minister for health of that

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Speaker 4: that was only backbenches. I didn't ask ministers because they

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Speaker 4: are bound like cabinet solidarity. Obviously the Health Minute the time.

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Speaker 4: Greg Hunters had a different view.

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Speaker 2: Where does that leave us, Well, there's one thing we

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Speaker 2: know for sure. Vaping use has increased in Australia in

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Speaker 2: recent years and it's readily available too, and that's despite

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Speaker 2: the fact that you're not permitted to sell, import.

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Speaker 1: Or possess them without a prescription.

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Speaker 2: It seems there is widespread agreement that there should be

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Speaker 2: a crackdown on vaping use of school age children, but

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Speaker 2: there are differing opinions on whether it should be legal

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Speaker 2: for adults. Doctor Michelle john Janellis, a senior research fellow

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Speaker 2: at the University of Melbourne, says the government is currently

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Speaker 2: failing young people by its lack of action on the matter,

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Speaker 2: and she points to the research that has come out

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Speaker 2: which tells us that there are adverse health impacts. Matt Canavan,

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Speaker 2: a senator from Queensland who's from the National Party, says

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Speaker 2: he hasn't seen the evidence that vaping is bad for you,

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Speaker 2: and therefore he believes it should be legalized. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for listening to this episode of No Silly Questions.

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Speaker 2: If you liked this episode, I would love if you

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Speaker 2: could give us a five star review on Spotify or Apple.

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Speaker 1: The Daily Oz is a really.

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Speaker 2: Small independent media company, and it's the best way you

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Speaker 2: can help us grow. We'll see you next week.