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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.

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Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now resilient people are flexible, they find pathways, they identify

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Speaker 2: alternative options.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au and the author of a

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Speaker 2: bunch of books about making your family happy. I'm here

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Speaker 2: with Kylie. This is Happy Families. Holidays are over, the

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Speaker 2: school's back. Are you like tired or something after the

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Speaker 2: school holidays?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know you saying that the school holidays

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Speaker 1: are over. Well, well they are for Queenslanders, but I

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Speaker 1: don't actually feel like I've had a holidays.

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Speaker 2: The kids had the holiday, not you, not me.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and we're in the middle of packing up house.

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Speaker 2: Oh. For those who have been following along since the

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Speaker 2: start of the year, it's been the world's longest saga.

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Speaker 2: We have some news. We sold a house and and

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Speaker 2: we brought a house. So finally, finally, I mean, we're

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Speaker 2: not there yet. We're still This week we move out

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Speaker 2: of our old house completely. You remain on the coast

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Speaker 2: in another airbnb, because how many times have we moved

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Speaker 2: in the last three months, and over the next couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks we'll be in and out of a couple

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Speaker 2: more airbnbs, and finally late May we move into our

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Speaker 2: very own new home near the coast. And I hope

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Speaker 2: it'll all have been worth it, because it's been like

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Speaker 2: five months of moving. Saga.

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Speaker 1: Well, they say that a change is as good as

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Speaker 1: a vacation. I'm a little bit nervous about this change

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Speaker 1: because we're going from a very large space into a

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Speaker 1: very small space. We're having a complete sea change in

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Speaker 1: every sense of the word.

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Speaker 2: So for anyone who's sort of been watching the housing

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Speaker 2: market lately, you will know that coastal areas are kind

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Speaker 2: of expensive. So we've been living in a really big

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Speaker 2: house that the reality is we couldn't believe how much

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Speaker 2: house you can buy in the southern suburbs of Brisbane,

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Speaker 2: and so we're moving out of a six bedroom, four

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Speaker 2: bathroom house. I mean it was it's been a massive

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Speaker 2: house to live in into a three bedroom, two bathroom house,

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Speaker 2: Like we're literally half the size and we still have

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Speaker 2: five at home and we've got two shipping containers full

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Speaker 2: of stuff that we're going to have.

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Speaker 1: To and you're going to work from home as well.

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Speaker 2: At our school. That's right, the kids one of those bedroom.

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Speaker 2: The kids are actually going to all sleep in the

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Speaker 2: rumpus room because I need one of the bedrooms for

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Speaker 2: an office because I don't even have an office there.

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Speaker 1: So keep an air out for I'll do better tomorrow's

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Speaker 1: because I am sure we're going to have some wouses

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Speaker 1: as the months go on.

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Speaker 2: Man, and I guess to tidy up the end of

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Speaker 2: this conversation, we have spent our school holidays packing up

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Speaker 2: and cleaning up and tidying up. I'm saying goodbye. I'm saying, yeah,

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Speaker 2: well that's been really nice. That's true. So anyway, today Kylie,

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Speaker 2: we have a conversation that's important that we filled everyone

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Speaker 2: in on where we're up to. And I don't know

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Speaker 2: how the podcast, by the way, is going to manage

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Speaker 2: through the next few weeks, but we will make it happen.

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Speaker 2: We're going to make it happen. But a really important

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Speaker 2: conversation to kick off term two.

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Speaker 1: You know, parents have had a really tough time over

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Speaker 1: the last few years. You think about the pandemic and

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Speaker 1: all of the things that have happened there with in iso,

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Speaker 1: the vaccination dilemma and you know, not being able to

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Speaker 1: get get food.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been coss living lately, like it's huge, lazy, expensive, And.

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Speaker 1: Then you think about, you know, kind of I guess

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Speaker 1: some of the challenges that countries are broad are experiencing

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Speaker 1: with war at the moment and the tumultuous way that

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Speaker 1: has affected us, even here in Australia, it's had such

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Speaker 1: a huge impact and just our sense of well being

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Speaker 1: and peace, yeah, has been affected. Oh gosh, don't talk

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Speaker 1: about the floods and families all around the country and

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Speaker 1: obviously throughout the world are experiencing these and it seems

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Speaker 1: like it's just we can't kind of get a break, yeah, yep.

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Speaker 2: And so there's been calls. In fact, the O Chilren's

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Speaker 2: Research Institute recently published a study where clinicians, psychologists, people

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Speaker 2: who work in mental health fields are calling for resilience

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Speaker 2: training in schools to help prevent mental health disorders because

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Speaker 2: we're seeing an increase in anxiety, we're seeing an increase

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Speaker 2: in depression, we're seeing an increase in mental health issues

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Speaker 2: and decreased resilience in our kids.

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Speaker 1: So surely, well, I would suggest that it's across the board.

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Speaker 1: We're not just talking about kids who are dealing with this.

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Speaker 1: I would assume that adults are dealing with anxiety and

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Speaker 1: depression just at an alarming rate.

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Speaker 2: The world is it has to impact our kids, right,

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Speaker 2: and our lives are more challenging. So yeah, of course

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Speaker 2: it's affecting all of us. But when we're not well,

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Speaker 2: it certainly affects them. And so people are saying, let's

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Speaker 2: get resilience training happening in schools, and that's what we

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Speaker 2: want to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm really curious is this actually a teacher's job,

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Speaker 1: Like should this stop be taught in schools?

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Speaker 2: I want to answer that in a fairly sort of

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Speaker 2: nuanced way. We've got research evidence that can guide our

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Speaker 2: instruction here, that can guide our conversation. Your first question

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Speaker 2: was should teachers be responsible for teaching resilience in schools?

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Speaker 2: So teachers already teach a number of ours. They teach writing, reading,

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Speaker 2: and arithmetic. Should we add resilience to it? I don't

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Speaker 2: actually think so. And there's a couple of reasons. Number One,

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Speaker 2: teachers aren't trained to teach this stuff like well being, psychology,

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Speaker 2: mental health. These are not specifically things that teachers are

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Speaker 2: trained to teach in and they do require a certain

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Speaker 2: level of expertise and expert knowledge, and I just think

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Speaker 2: that that's asking. Oh, teachers already do so much and

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Speaker 2: so many things have been crammed into the curriculum. And

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Speaker 2: that's probably not a very popular thing for me to

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Speaker 2: be saying, because most people think that we do need

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Speaker 2: to be teaching resilience at schools. I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: the reality. I think what needs to be taught in

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Speaker 2: the home. So that's the first thing. The second thing

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Speaker 2: is that some of the world's best researchers have tried

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Speaker 2: to get resilience programmed running in schools. The very best

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Speaker 2: known one was put together by a guy called Martin Seligman.

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Speaker 2: He is the founder of the positive psychology movement over

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Speaker 2: the last twenty years, which has swept the world by storm,

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Speaker 2: and he put together a program called the Penn Resiliency

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Speaker 2: Project the PERP. We've got schools here in Australia like

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Speaker 2: Knox Grammar in Sydney and Geelong Grammar in obviously in

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Speaker 2: Geelong who have literally spent millions of dollars implementing well

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Speaker 2: being and what the research seems to be indicating is

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Speaker 2: that it doesn't really have a huge impact. It has

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Speaker 2: a marginal effect. There are some children that have really

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Speaker 2: benefited from it, but many that have not. And there's

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Speaker 2: a number of reasons for it. When you try to

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Speaker 2: teach it in a school, you've got to have the

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Speaker 2: entire school culture embracing it and living it. The worry

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Speaker 2: that it can veer into toxic positivity, and everything's always

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Speaker 2: got to be great, fine and wonderful, happy, and ultimately

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Speaker 2: the results just don't stand up. They can't get good

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Speaker 2: long judinal studies showing that teaching this stuff in schools

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Speaker 2: is having a long term impact on the well being

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Speaker 2: and the resilience of our kids. So I wish that

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Speaker 2: I could say, yes, let's do it, and here's a solution,

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Speaker 2: and let's roll this out, but it doesn't seem to

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Speaker 2: actually work.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting when you talk about the things that teachers

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Speaker 1: generally are trained to teach, every time there seems to

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Speaker 1: be a lack in our children's lives, it almost feels

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Speaker 1: like teachers are the ones who get lumped with the

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Speaker 1: responsibility of taking care of that, of feeling that need.

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Speaker 2: It's because it's a community wide. It's a society wide issue,

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Speaker 2: and the best way to get information to the whole

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Speaker 2: society is run it through the curriculum because that's where

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Speaker 2: everybody is. But it doesn't work. The research just isn't

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Speaker 2: there to support it. There's been plenty of research done,

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Speaker 2: and some research is positive. I'm not throwing the whole

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Speaker 2: field out and saying this is a waste of time.

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Speaker 2: Suggesting is that overall, over time, we're not seeing the

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Speaker 2: kind of improvements that would justify running this stuff through

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Speaker 2: the school curriculum. And that's cause resilience starts at home.

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Speaker 2: After the break, we're going to talk about what we

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Speaker 2: can do to build our kids' resilience. Your daughter just

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Speaker 2: walked by, eyes glued to her phone, expression unreadable. You

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Speaker 2: ask her to put it down, but she balks. You

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Speaker 2: know it's not good for her, but you're not sure

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Speaker 2: why or how to support better choices. In the webinar,

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Speaker 2: pixel perfect I joined with psychologist and team tech expert

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Speaker 2: Jocelyn Brewer to discuss how to set screen boundaries that

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Speaker 2: work for you and your daughter. Check out pixel perfect

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Speaker 2: now on the Happy Families webshop.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time,

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Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers now. Resilience. It's a catchphrase.

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Speaker 1: We talk about it all the time, and this study

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Speaker 1: has obviously reignited the conversation around whether or not resilience

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Speaker 1: should actually be taught in schools. You're suggesting no. So

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Speaker 1: if that's the case, how do we as parents who

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Speaker 1: are tired? We're tired.

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Speaker 2: You're saying we're not resilient ourselves. Is that what he's saying?

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Speaker 1: No, But I am saying that the last few years

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Speaker 1: has thrown some major curve balls, and for parents who

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Speaker 1: are just getting through day to day, the last few

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Speaker 1: years have really really affected our capacity tiring.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And so how do we teach resilience to our kids?

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to share three ideas here that I

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Speaker 2: think will be helpful, and we're going to do it

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Speaker 2: in about four minutes, so we've got to move fairly

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Speaker 2: quickly because time is going to run against us. The

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Speaker 2: first one, and I was thinking about this the other

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Speaker 2: day when I was on my bicycle. I was thinking

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Speaker 2: about people who are resilient. So you can be resilient

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Speaker 2: and still have something horrible happen to you and you

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Speaker 2: end up laying underneath the blankets and needing ice cream,

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Speaker 2: watching Netflix and crying because sometimes life is really hard.

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Speaker 2: Resilient people still feel all of the same emotions. We

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Speaker 2: don't have to impose this, like I said before, toxic

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Speaker 2: positivity on people so that they feel like they can

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Speaker 2: be resilient. You should be allowed to have the full

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Speaker 2: range of emotions. But resilient people are flexible. They find pathways,

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Speaker 2: they identify alternative options. So when something happens that's not good,

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Speaker 2: when something happens that hammers them into the ground, when

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Speaker 2: something happens that's unexpected, random, volatile, difficult to deal with.

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Speaker 2: What they do is they find a way forward or

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Speaker 2: they find a different way forward.

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Speaker 1: So I had a conversation with one of our daughters

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Speaker 1: just the other day in relation to moving. She's been

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Speaker 1: so supportive of our move and has been really really

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Speaker 1: excited about it, and there is so much about our

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Speaker 1: new life on the coast that she loves. But being

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Speaker 1: back in Brisbane and spending time with her friends has

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Speaker 1: left her really really sad, and she's trying, really you know.

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Speaker 1: She tried really hard through the holidays to put a big,

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Speaker 1: brave face on and one day she was really cranky.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what is going on, you know? And

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Speaker 1: I finally I sat down with her and she just

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Speaker 1: burst into tears. She said, I don't want to move.

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Speaker 1: I miss my friends. And so we were abred to

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Speaker 1: talk about that and talk about the fact that I

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Speaker 1: would love for her to have grown up in the

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Speaker 1: same family home her whole life and to have had

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Speaker 1: the same friends her whole life. And yet I feel

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Speaker 1: like our lives are richer because of all of the

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Speaker 1: experiences we've had and all of the different people that

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Speaker 1: have come into our lives as a result of our moves.

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Speaker 1: But I also acknowledged to her that it was okay

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Speaker 1: for her to be sad, and she could be sad

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Speaker 1: for as long as she needed to be, and she

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Speaker 1: could cry, and she could come and get a hug

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Speaker 1: from me whenever she needed it too, But as soon

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Speaker 1: as it went from being sad to wallowing in it,

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Speaker 1: that that in and of itself would be detrimental to her.

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Speaker 1: That feeling sad and acknowledging that sadness was okay, but

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Speaker 1: that then she needed to take opportunities. It's not about

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Speaker 1: being that toxic positivity that you're talking about, but acknowledging

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Speaker 1: the things that are good in her life. Finding opportunity

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Speaker 1: is to be grateful for the beautiful friendships she has

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Speaker 1: and the opportunity she has to continue those relationships in

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Speaker 1: spite of the fact that she's not in them. And

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Speaker 1: what are some of the things that she loves about

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Speaker 1: her new life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, adolescent girls in particular are really prone to rumination,

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Speaker 2: which is exactly the opposite of finding pathways forward. I

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Speaker 2: love the word that you use. It's wallowing. It's sitting

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Speaker 2: there and saying woe is me, this isn't working, I'm unhappy,

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Speaker 2: And instead of finding pathways or options a different way forward,

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Speaker 2: they don't. They just sit there and stagnate. That's the

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Speaker 2: very essence of a non resilient response. So by talking

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Speaker 2: with our children about being fine to be unhappy, to

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Speaker 2: even grieve, but then saying what pathways do we have

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Speaker 2: to get to where we want to go? Now, that

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Speaker 2: is a resilience building conversation. The second idea that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to share was just the idea of being flexible,

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Speaker 2: which kind of it's aligned with what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 2: but flexibility is a bit more than that. It's essentially

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Speaker 2: saying I'm in a situation that's not ideal, a situation

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Speaker 2: that's bringing me down. How can I adapt to this

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Speaker 2: particular situation so that I can feel okay about being here,

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Speaker 2: or so that I can respond to it in an

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Speaker 2: effective way even though I'm not okay being here, because

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Speaker 2: I am here regardless. So again, it's not about toxic

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Speaker 2: positivity and smile your frowns away and let's make everything

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Speaker 2: turn that frown upside down kind of thing, but rather

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Speaker 2: being flexible in the way we respond to a situation

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Speaker 2: that we find challenging.

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Speaker 1: So can you give us an example of what it

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Speaker 1: means to be flexible? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I write about this in my book Nine Ways to

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Speaker 2: a Resilient Child, and this story really strikes me as

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Speaker 2: being a good one. There's a boy's name is Noah.

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Speaker 2: He's about I think he's in like grade ten, grade eleven,

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Speaker 2: and he's at a school sports carnival day and they're

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Speaker 2: doing do you remember those games like tunnel ball and

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Speaker 2: captain Ball. So they've got a full age range from

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Speaker 2: grade seven through to grade twelve playing this game, and

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Speaker 2: they're doing tunnel ball and one of the grade seven

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Speaker 2: kids completely fumbles the ball loses the ball, it goes

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Speaker 2: off completely the wrong way and they're going to lose.

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Speaker 2: About ten or twelve seconds while his grade seven boy

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Speaker 2: runs to pick up the ball that he's fumbled and

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Speaker 2: throw it back so that it can be done again.

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Speaker 2: And as this happens, a grade nine boy starts to

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Speaker 2: rip into this kid. Oh man, I can't believe you

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Speaker 2: just did that. You're so clumsy, calling him names while

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Speaker 2: he's chasing after the ball. But this grade eleven boy,

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Speaker 2: Noah or grade ten boy or whatever he was, he

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Speaker 2: calls out to this grade nine boy and says, hey,

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Speaker 2: it's just a game. It's not going to change the

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Speaker 2: world whether we win or lose. Just be nice. He's

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Speaker 2: only in grade seven. And so what's happened here is

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Speaker 2: Noah wants to win, just like every other boy in

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Speaker 2: that competition, but he knows what his values are, he

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Speaker 2: knows what matters most. He's got his priorities in order,

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Speaker 2: and he's able to be flexible around his end goal

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Speaker 2: based on what's happening in the context. He knows that

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Speaker 2: it's more important to be kind, that value matters more

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Speaker 2: than the value of winning. And so when the year

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Speaker 2: nine boy starts yelling at the year seven, boy Noah

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Speaker 2: steps in and says, hey, you know what, in terms

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Speaker 2: of priority, being kind mat as much more than winning.

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Speaker 2: Don't give the kid a hard time. Let's just work

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Speaker 2: together as a team. From here, we'll do the best

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Speaker 2: we can. That's what it is to be flexible. You've

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Speaker 2: got a goal, but even if you're not going to

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Speaker 2: hit your goal, you remember what your values are and

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Speaker 2: you change your goal based on your values and based

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Speaker 2: on the circumstances. Now, that's a really resilient mindset.

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Speaker 1: So in a parental context, as parents, we want obedience, right,

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Speaker 1: we want our kids to do what we've asked them

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: A lot of parents do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But at the end of the day, what we

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Speaker 1: want more, or I hope we want more, is to

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Speaker 1: have a good, solid, strong relationship with our kids. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes that means letting go of that obedience model to

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Speaker 1: have the relationship.

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Speaker 2: That's a really nice idea. Yeah, that works really really well.

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Speaker 2: Third idea, to build our kids' resilience. And we'll have

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Speaker 2: to do this one fairly quickly because we're kind of

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Speaker 2: out of time. It's just giving them something to hope for,

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Speaker 2: like building hope as parents, and you've heard me say

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Speaker 2: this before. We are hope builders. We cannot expect teachers

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Speaker 2: to be responsible for helping kids to discover new pathways

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Speaker 2: to everything in life, be flexible and have something to

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Speaker 2: hope for. As parents, this is our job. This is

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Speaker 2: how we build our kids' resilience. What are your kids

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Speaker 2: hoping for? What are they looking forward to? How are

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Speaker 2: they going to get there? How can they be flexible

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Speaker 2: in their approaches? How can they adapt or change their

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Speaker 2: goals based on their values as things do or don't

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Speaker 2: measure up. If they can do these sorts of things,

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Speaker 2: they're going to be resilient and they're going to be

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Speaker 2: just fine. Like if we go back highly to the

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Speaker 2: initial list of challenges and difficulties that the world is

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Speaker 2: facing and that families are facing, that our children are facing,

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Speaker 2: that we're facing, the one thing that stands out to

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Speaker 2: me more than anything is that adversity doesn't discriminate. We

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Speaker 2: all have hard times. But if we can have options

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Speaker 2: and teach our kids that there are always options, there's

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Speaker 2: always another way forward, they can be flexible. Maybe what

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Speaker 2: they're moving towards actually isn't what they need to, but

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Speaker 2: perhaps there's a different goal. And if we can help

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Speaker 2: them build hope they're going to be resilient.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you

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Speaker 2: like what we had to talk about, I ran a

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Speaker 2: webinar last night that you might really love. It's called

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Speaker 2: the Toolbox for Tremendously Tough and Terrible Times or something

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Speaker 2: like that. It's in that Happy Family's webshop right now,

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Speaker 2: and I reckon you might really enjoy it. There's a

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Speaker 2: list of ten things that you can do to keep

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Speaker 2: your cool when times are tough, and a list of

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Speaker 2: ten things that you can do to help your kids

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Speaker 2: keep their cool when times are tough. It's a really

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Speaker 2: great webinar. We had a great conversation about it last night,

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Speaker 2: and it might just help if resilience is on the

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Speaker 2: wane in your home. Please check it out at the

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Speaker 2: Happy Family's webshop. You can find all the info at

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Speaker 2: happyfamilies dot com, dot a