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Speaker 1: You recall last year we had extensive discussions about school counselors.

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Speaker 1: Students had joined us in the studio last year to

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Speaker 1: raise concerns about a lack of counselors and the new model, which,

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Speaker 1: as I understand it sees counselors attending different schools on

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Speaker 1: a roving sort of basis. Now I've actually had some

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Speaker 1: students raised concerns with me again about this this year,

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Speaker 1: saying they need extra counselors. Now joining us on the

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Speaker 1: line is the Department of Education's Executive Director of Inclusion

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Speaker 1: and Engagement Services, A Darren Chatterton. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie. How are you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Really good Darren, thanks so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what is the current situation with the school

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Speaker 1: counselors in middle and high schools?

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie. We currently have a school counselors who

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Speaker 2: are time allocated to twelve of our middle and secondary

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Speaker 2: high schools. That's been in place for a number of

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Speaker 2: years now. There's been no changes to that model. We

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Speaker 2: currently do have a few vacancies in that team. We're

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Speaker 2: going through recruitment as we speak. Actually we've got the

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Speaker 2: positions advertised and so we continue to recruit and look

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Speaker 2: at attracting and retaining more and more of those positions

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Speaker 2: so that they continue to be supporting social students and stuff.

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Speaker 1: So, Darren, if there is no changes, why do you

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Speaker 1: think it is that students are getting in contact with

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Speaker 1: us saying that there's not enough or that the counselors

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Speaker 1: aren't based at their school anymore.

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Speaker 2: So at the moment, we're allocating those school councilors based

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Speaker 2: on the number of people that we have available, so

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Speaker 2: in some schools to ensure that we're supporting all of

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Speaker 2: our schools, there may be a reduction in the times

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Speaker 2: due to the vacancy that they are there, but we

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Speaker 2: strive to ensure they're there for three to five days

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Speaker 2: a week and wherever possible that it's the same counselor,

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Speaker 2: so they're connecting with the students and part of the stuff. Certainly,

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Speaker 2: when we're talking with our Youth Voice Peak group about

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Speaker 2: this topic, they do speak about the importance of well

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Speaker 2: being supporting their schools, but through a variety of roles

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Speaker 2: as well, not just our school counselors. So we're looking

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Speaker 2: at ways that we can diversify our workforce as well

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Speaker 2: as our school counselor positions.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm keen to find out more about that

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Speaker 1: in just a moment. But in terms of the counselors

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Speaker 1: that we do have, you'd said there that where possible,

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Speaker 1: you do try to have that consistency. I guess you'd

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Speaker 1: call it in terms of the same counselors at the

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Speaker 1: school as often as possible, so they're able to build

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Speaker 1: that rapport with students. Is that able to happen more

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Speaker 1: often than not, or are we in a bit of

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Speaker 1: a situation at the moment where some schools are experiencing

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Speaker 1: a situation where they've got different counselors there quite often.

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Speaker 2: We certainly strive for consistency whereof possible. We just provided

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Speaker 2: an upsdated timetable to our schools and it's the same

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Speaker 2: councilors in all the schools continuing. And so we have

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Speaker 2: had some long term counselors they're off on study leave

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Speaker 2: this year or maternity leave, and so that those natural

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Speaker 2: workforce changes has resulted in some change. But wherever possible,

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Speaker 2: we do ensure consistency of people.

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Speaker 1: And so, just going back to those numbers, did you

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Speaker 1: say that twelve of the schools have those counselors or

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Speaker 1: how many counselors have we got.

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Speaker 2: So we've got thirty counselor positions in our structure, which

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Speaker 2: is one part of a wider allied health team yep.

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Speaker 2: So we also have occupational therapists each therapist, yeah, inclusion advisors.

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Speaker 2: So there's almost two forms because we need to service

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Speaker 2: all of our schools in the territory. So there's those

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Speaker 2: schools that have the time allocated counselors that we've been

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Speaker 2: speaking about, and then for our other schools in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory, they there's two approach. So our school principals

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Speaker 2: meet with our team and they talk about what their

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Speaker 2: needs are for their school and the kind of support

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Speaker 2: they'd like to see happening. And there's also a request

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Speaker 2: for service that schools can do at any time that

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Speaker 2: comes into a team and then that lets us know

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Speaker 2: where the needs are. And we have also counselors that

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Speaker 2: will travel out to primary schools, our regional schools to

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Speaker 2: provide that support as well.

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Speaker 1: All right, So with those thirty positions within that structure,

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Speaker 1: are they they're all filled or did you say there

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Speaker 1: was a couple that aren't?

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Speaker 2: There are currently vacancies, yes, many, and we've got those

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Speaker 2: positions advertised. We've we've currently got sixteen of our counselor

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Speaker 2: positions filled and we've got counselor positions advertised at the moment, psychologists, positions,

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Speaker 2: speech therapists, hearing advisors or not the hearing advisors. Sorry.

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Speaker 2: When we look at the national trends, it's certainly, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's certainly a field that we're seeing in education right

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Speaker 2: across Australia that we need to be continuing to diversify

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Speaker 2: our workforce. You look at different approaches.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Look, I mean sixteen filled out of thirty,

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Speaker 1: it does seem like there is a big shortfall there

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Speaker 1: that must be making it hard on the you know,

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Speaker 1: on the whole structure.

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Speaker 2: Well, it certainly provides opportunity for innovation. We've been working

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Speaker 2: with our schools in Central Australia, so with the on

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Speaker 2: country Learning initiative that's been secured down there, we've speaking

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Speaker 2: to the principles. We've created new position descriptions around, like

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Speaker 2: the concept of a youth worker or a wellbeing officer

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Speaker 2: to say to our schools, you know, if you'd like

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Speaker 2: to look at these kind of roles we can also

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Speaker 2: support those those new roles and we can look at

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Speaker 2: providing quality professional learning, making them part of our broader network,

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Speaker 2: and just continuing to build build our workforce in this space.

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Speaker 1: There's obviously plans underway to try and recruit more. I

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Speaker 1: think you said that you are advertising as well for

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Speaker 1: those other positions.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we know. Starting last year we brought in

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Speaker 2: some new approaches to the way that we're attracting and

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Speaker 2: retaining all of our Allied Health professionals and we've certainly

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Speaker 2: seen while we've got counselor vacancies, we started the year

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Speaker 2: with more of our Allied Health team positions filled than

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Speaker 2: we did last year. For certainly our investment, the work

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Speaker 2: we're doing with profiling the roles of the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 2: working with professional organizations at Charles Darwin University, meeting our

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Speaker 2: up and coming Allied Health professionals and talking to them

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Speaker 2: about what it means to work in the education. So

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Speaker 2: we're out and about their and we're doing some exciting

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Speaker 2: work at the moment around looking at more pathways and

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Speaker 2: so what are.

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Speaker 1: Some of those Allied Health sort of roles Because I

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Speaker 1: suppose for some parents listening this morning, when they're when

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Speaker 1: they're looking more at that mental health side of things

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Speaker 1: for their kids and that support that you know that

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Speaker 1: they may feel that a counselor is able to give.

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Speaker 1: Are there other allied health professionals in the system at

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Speaker 1: the moment that are supporting.

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Speaker 2: We've recently brought in some new positions as well, some

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Speaker 2: positive behavior implementation coaches. So that's also looking at how

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Speaker 2: do we support schools with whole school approaches to support

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Speaker 2: safe and supportive learning environments. And a really exciting piece

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Speaker 2: that we're doing is our partnership with Beyond Blue with

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Speaker 2: the BU program. So it was optional. We said to

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Speaker 2: our schools, you know, this is a way we can

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Speaker 2: work together to strengthen whole school approaches to mental health

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Speaker 2: and wellbeing. And twenty one of our schools have elected

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Speaker 2: to be part of that program, and so they'll actually

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Speaker 2: have a BU consultant as well as one of our

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Speaker 2: team members that are walking alongside that school and helping

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Speaker 2: them to continue to build their practices in this space,

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Speaker 2: support their all educators, all staff around us supporting children's

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Speaker 2: mental health and wellbeing. But we definitely know too the

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Speaker 2: importance of us working with families and our school counselors.

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Speaker 2: They play a vital role too. So you know, our

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Speaker 2: family inclusive approach us talking to families and saying, look,

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Speaker 2: we need you to know that you're a young person

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Speaker 2: has reached out for some support. We can do that

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Speaker 2: in a way that still respects the young person's confidentiality,

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Speaker 2: but it's also about saying to families, this is how

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Speaker 2: we're supporting your child. Here's some ideas, here's some other

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Speaker 2: services available. Because we know it can be overwhelming for

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Speaker 2: people sometimes to navigate what is out there, so we

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Speaker 2: understand education plays a role in that, and also supporting

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Speaker 2: our school leaders to understand what is out there as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and look, I guess you know. The point

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Speaker 1: that's being made to me, or certainly the concern I

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Speaker 1: suppose that's been raised with me by a few different students,

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Speaker 1: is that they don't feel that there is enough when

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Speaker 1: it comes to those counselors. They are feeling as though

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Speaker 1: there's not a situation where they're able to build that

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Speaker 1: rapport with those counselors in the way that they may

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Speaker 1: have previously been able to. And I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: it's a situation where because we are sort of a

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Speaker 1: number of those positions down or whether it is the

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Speaker 1: changing of the model, But you know, what advice would

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Speaker 1: you give to those students that are feeling that way.

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Speaker 2: I think we had a really great conversation with the

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Speaker 2: Youth Voice crew last week and they actually they wrote

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Speaker 2: down on a piece of paper and they said, you know,

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Speaker 2: we want to be able to have these conversations in

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Speaker 2: lots of places, not just in one room. And I

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Speaker 2: would say to the students that there are many of

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Speaker 2: us that are here to listen for you to reach

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Speaker 2: out to and we can support you and even for

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Speaker 2: you know, I just want to reassure all of your

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Speaker 2: listeners to Kadie. While we have those vacancies at the moment,

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Speaker 2: we also have a service. It's called a duty worker role.

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Speaker 2: So there's a either a social worker or a trained

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Speaker 2: psychologist that's in our department every day, and any school

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Speaker 2: can ring us, can email us and say I've had

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Speaker 2: this young person reach out to us for some help.

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Speaker 2: What do I do? And we guide them through that

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Speaker 2: and we support them and if required, we will deploy

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Speaker 2: our resources to that school. And so we have agility

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Speaker 2: and we always have one someone there that can listen.

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Speaker 2: So what we all need to do is in the

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Speaker 2: first instance, just support our students to know, reach out,

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Speaker 2: speak up, and then we'll do what we can together

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Speaker 2: with your family to support you.

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Speaker 1: Has there been incidents where young people are in distress

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Speaker 1: at school and isn't someone who's able to see them?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I mean young people. It's a changing world around

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Speaker 2: what our young people face, and certainly our measure of

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Speaker 2: that would be around schools reaching out to our duty

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Speaker 2: worker if they need some advice and guidance. Also, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's examples. I just heard of another local school the

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Speaker 2: other day where a teacher had undertaken some of the

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Speaker 2: BU training and just had a really open conversation with

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Speaker 2: the students and said, if there's anyone who wants to

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Speaker 2: have a chat, here's where I am, and you come

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Speaker 2: and reach out. And one young person did and shared

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Speaker 2: some really important information and then we should get the

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Speaker 2: support around them. So I think it's just always about

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Speaker 2: those conversations and supporting everyone to feel confident to just

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Speaker 2: initiate them, but to know there are then a team

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Speaker 2: that can come in and can support We're not expecting

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Speaker 2: everyone to turn into counselors. These are qualified social workers

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Speaker 2: and psychologists. We just need to support everyone to feel comfortable,

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Speaker 2: to listen.

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Speaker 1: Well and look out. You know, our teachers have already

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Speaker 1: got so much on their plates as well, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: I've no doubt that it's a really difficult juggle. I

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Speaker 1: know that the department has also made some changes as

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Speaker 1: I understand it, following the inquest that was underway just

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago. There has been a series

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Speaker 1: of changes to student wellbeing policies in the wake of

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Speaker 1: the death of a thirteen year old Darwin girl. The

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Speaker 1: suicide of a thirteen year old Darwin girl. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us what some of those changes have been, Thanks Katie.

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Speaker 2: That was very important work that we undertook and we're

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Speaker 2: continuing to evolve and improve. So post the tragic loss

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Speaker 2: of the young lady you refer to, we started reviewing

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Speaker 2: as a department then, and so one thing we brought

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Speaker 2: in was a new document called a practice Directive and

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Speaker 2: it speaks to all of our team, all of our

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Speaker 2: Allied health team, but also to schools. It's almost like

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Speaker 2: a flow chart and it talks about if a young

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Speaker 2: person is talking about self harm or suicidal ideation or risk,

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Speaker 2: here's the steps you follow and here's the numbers you contact,

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Speaker 2: and it has a really strong emphasis on ensuring school

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Speaker 2: principles are aware and most importantly, families are aware so

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Speaker 2: that we can work together to support the young person.

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Speaker 2: So that's one example of something we've brought in. Another

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Speaker 2: new piece that we've brought in over the past year

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Speaker 2: and a half is the introduction of a professional practice unit,

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Speaker 2: and so that's about recognizing all of our important Allied

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Speaker 2: health roles are disciplines and they have standards that they

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Speaker 2: need to meet, and there's strong evidence base and so

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Speaker 2: there's a consistent approach to how we are doing this

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Speaker 2: work in our schools as supporting the growth of our

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Speaker 2: people and supporting them in their ongoing workforce development aspirations.

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Speaker 1: It is such important work and I know you know,

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Speaker 1: I know it can be such a difficult conversation as

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Speaker 1: well for some of our kids to have. But look,

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Speaker 1: if there is anybody out there listening this morning, and

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Speaker 1: if the discussion that we are having has raised anything

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Speaker 1: for you, you can indeed get in contact with Lifeline.

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Speaker 1: On thirteen eleven fourteen, Adarren, before I let you go,

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Speaker 1: we have had a call. Just call through and ask

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Speaker 1: is it apartment paying counselors enough to attract them here

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Speaker 1: and is it competitive enough to keep them in schools

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Speaker 1: versus other positions.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie. We have done a scan of every

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Speaker 2: jurisdiction and I can confirm we are competitive as a jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: and certainly when we look at the fact that it's

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Speaker 2: a pure model and there's not a lot of leadership

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Speaker 2: opportunity leadership obligations put on the role. However, we've also

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Speaker 2: created leadership positions, so not just about attracting our people,

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Speaker 2: but we may have really experienced counselors, psychologists and social

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Speaker 2: workers who are looking for leadership opportunities, so we now

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Speaker 2: them in the territory which will help with retention as well.

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Speaker 1: Well. I really appreciate your time this morning. A Darren Chatterton,

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Speaker 1: who is indeed the Department of Education Executive Director of

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Speaker 1: Inclusion and Engagement Services. Thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for your time, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Thank you