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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Os. Thursday, the

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Speaker 2: thirteenth of April. I'm Zara, I'm Sam, the Shadow Minister

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Speaker 2: for Indigenous Australians, has resigned over the Liberal Parties position

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Speaker 2: on the Indigenous Voice to Parliament.

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Speaker 3: The Indigenous Voice to Parliament is dividing the Liberal Party

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Speaker 3: this morning, with the Shadow Attorney General walking away from

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Speaker 3: the front bench a short time ago. I resigned as

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Speaker 3: a Shadow Attorney General and Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians

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Speaker 3: because I intend to campaign for Yes fate.

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Speaker 2: So what does this mean for the opposition and will

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Speaker 2: it have any consequences on the upcoming referendum. Tom's going

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Speaker 2: to join us to discuss it all on the Deep

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Speaker 2: divet But first Sam, let's do the headlines.

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Speaker 4: The Australian Electoral Commission has estimated that over one third

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Speaker 4: of Australian voters will be casting their vote in a

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Speaker 4: referendum for the first time this year. The last one

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Speaker 4: was in nineteen ninety nine. The AEC launched their dedicated

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Speaker 4: information hub for the Voice referendum yesterday, which includes a

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Speaker 4: disinformation register to debunk claims made during the campaign. The

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Speaker 4: referendum on the Indigenous Voice is expected to occur later

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Speaker 4: this year. We'll discuss it more in today's deep Dive.

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Speaker 2: The Bureau of Meteorology has forecast tropical cyclone Ilsa to

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Speaker 2: strengthen into a Category three system before making landfall in

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Speaker 2: Wa as early as today. It's expected to land somewhere

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Speaker 2: between Port Headland and Broom on WA's northern coast by

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Speaker 2: Friday morning, and is expected to head inland before weakening.

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Speaker 4: AFL's CEO GILLN McLaughlin has condemned the latest examples of

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Speaker 4: racist abuse directed at AFL players, saying it has to stop.

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Speaker 4: It comes after four players from three different clubs reported

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Speaker 4: being racially abused earlier this week, and follows other reports

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Speaker 4: of racist remarks at First Nations players this season. The

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Speaker 4: AFL says it is investigating the alleged attacks on the players.

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Speaker 2: And some very good news for your Thursday morning. Australian

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Speaker 2: researchers are developing a less invasive way to diagnose endometriosis,

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Speaker 2: which they say could be rolled out within the next

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Speaker 2: two years. Endometriosis occurs when tissue similar to the lining

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Speaker 2: of the uterus spreads to other parts of the body

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Speaker 2: and affects one in nine people with a uterus. The

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Speaker 2: new method would use a combination of AI and imaging

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Speaker 2: and would analyze pelvic ultrasound and MRI scans to actually

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Speaker 2: detect for that endo. Tom, Good to have you back.

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Speaker 5: Good to be here, so Tom.

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Speaker 2: Earlier this week there was what was at the time

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Speaker 2: quite a surprise announcement from Julian Lisa, who until that

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Speaker 2: point was the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians, and he

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Speaker 2: announced that he was resigning from that role because of

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Speaker 2: the Liberal Party's position on the voice. It was a

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Speaker 2: very big deal and I want to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: but I do think that there's a bit of context

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Speaker 2: to unpack. First. I think a good place to start

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Speaker 2: is just if you could explain to us what exactly

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Speaker 2: the voice of Parliament actually.

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Speaker 5: Is Yeah, so we have done this. I think you

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Speaker 5: and I have done this a few times on the Podsara,

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Speaker 5: but I'll do a quick version. The Indigenous Voice is

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Speaker 5: an idea with a long history. At its heart, it

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Speaker 5: is an advisory body for Parliament for the government to

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Speaker 5: advise on policies that affect First Nations people. And the

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Speaker 5: discussion that we are having this year is whether we

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Speaker 5: should put such a body in the Constitution, which would

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Speaker 5: make it a permanent requirement. In order to change the constitution,

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Speaker 5: we need a referendum, which needs a majority of voters

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Speaker 5: in a majority of states in order to pass. We

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Speaker 5: are expecting to have this referendum later in the year.

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Speaker 5: We now have the government's proposed wording to change the constitution,

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Speaker 5: we have the wording of the question that they will

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Speaker 5: ask us. We're really kicking into gear for this referendum campaign,

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Speaker 5: and it's definitely kind of in the news. It feels

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Speaker 5: like almost every week at the moment it is.

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Speaker 2: And one of the reasons it's been in the news

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Speaker 2: so much is because we finally found out what the

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Speaker 2: Liberal Party's position on the Voice would be a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago, and then there was this Julian Lisa News.

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Speaker 2: So can you take me through first what Peter Dudden

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Speaker 2: said and where the Liberal Party has landed on the Voice.

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Speaker 5: Yes, so it took a while. We had really months

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Speaker 5: of the Liberal Party saying that they needed more detail

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Speaker 5: before they made up their mind. I think it was

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Speaker 5: pretty clear to most people through a lot of that

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Speaker 5: that they were leaning towards a no and getting closer

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Speaker 5: and closer to a no. So it's not as if

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Speaker 5: this came as any great surprise. But we did last

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Speaker 5: week get this kind of official confirmation of a Liberal

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Speaker 5: Party no. So Peter Dutton called a party room meeting

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Speaker 5: of all of the Liberal politicians in Canberra last Wednesday

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Speaker 5: and he came out of that meeting and announced what

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Speaker 5: they decided.

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Speaker 6: There was a resounding no to the Prime Minister's camera voice.

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Speaker 6: It should be very clear to Australians by now that

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Speaker 6: the Prime Minister is dividing our country and the Liberal

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Speaker 6: Party seeks to unite our country.

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Speaker 2: So Dunin made it official that the Liberal Party won't

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Speaker 2: be supporting the Voice or suddenly those on the front bench.

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Speaker 2: How did they get to that position and why?

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Speaker 5: It depends on who you ask. So I mean this

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Speaker 5: is a really complicated issue. Changing the constitution's a big deal.

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Speaker 5: There are probably as many different opinions on this as

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Speaker 5: there are people in the country, and that's true within

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Speaker 5: the Liberal Party and that's part of why what they

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Speaker 5: came out of this room with. I mean, in one sense,

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Speaker 5: it's a really clear no when it comes to the referendum,

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Speaker 5: it's a firm, as you heard Peter Dutton say, a

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Speaker 5: resounding no. But there are a few asterisks here which

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Speaker 5: kind of reflect the kind of spectrum of views in

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Speaker 5: the Liberal Party. So although it's a no, Peter Dutton says,

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Speaker 5: we support legislating not in the Constitution local and regional voice.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean?

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Speaker 5: He says, you know, kind of essentially a system where

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Speaker 5: each kind of local indigenous community has some sort of

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Speaker 5: a voice to contribute, but without necessarily a focus on the.

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Speaker 2: National voice, and not in the Constitution and.

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Speaker 5: Not in the Constitution, just just sort of a normal

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Speaker 5: advisory body set up in law. So that's part of

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Speaker 5: the position. But then the Liberals also, I guess, despite

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Speaker 5: saying that they are focused on practical outcomes, the Liberals

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Speaker 5: also support recognizing First Nations people in the Constitution, just

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Speaker 5: without a voice, so I guess symbolic recognition. So there

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Speaker 5: are a few kind of, as I say, asterisks to

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Speaker 5: this position. And Susan Lee, the Deputy Liberal Leader who

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Speaker 5: stood next to Peter Dutton when this announcement was made,

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Speaker 5: put it like this.

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Speaker 2: Today is not a no from the Liberal Party.

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Speaker 1: It's a day of many yes.

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Speaker 2: Is yes to constitutional recognition of Indigenous Australians, yes to

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Speaker 2: local and regional voices, yes to better outcomes.

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Speaker 1: For Indigenous Australians.

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Speaker 6: But it's a no for dividing Australians.

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Speaker 5: Which is kind of it's a little bit confusing. I

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Speaker 5: think it's fair to say there are some mixed messages here.

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Speaker 5: So they landed on a position in some ways that

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Speaker 5: is a bit ambiguous and has a few different shades

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Speaker 5: to it, but that is fundamentally a no. And Peter

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Speaker 5: Dutton has made it very clear he intends to campaign

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Speaker 5: in a strong way for no.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the Liberal Party has come out with what

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Speaker 2: they've labeled a resounding no. Can you just talk us through?

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Speaker 2: I guess what this means in practice for the referendum

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Speaker 2: and the potential success or failure of this referendum.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so they'll let the referendum happen. They're not going

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Speaker 5: to stand in the way of that. But when it

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Speaker 5: comes to their view on the merits of the referendum,

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Speaker 5: the official Liberal Party federal position is a no. Now,

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Speaker 5: the Liberal Party likes to talk about kind of freedom

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Speaker 5: of conscience for its members and so Dutton was clear

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Speaker 5: to emphasize that backbench liberals, that is liberals in Parliament

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Speaker 5: without any kind of formal leadership positions, any shadow ministries

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Speaker 5: would be free to kind of make their own decisions.

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Speaker 2: So they're not bound to how the party has formed

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Speaker 2: this position. Is that right?

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Speaker 5: That's right, So they're able to kind of campaign freely

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Speaker 5: in the referendum as they would like. But for the

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Speaker 5: shadow ministers for the Liberal leadership team, Dutton emphasized that

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Speaker 5: this was a binding decision, so that's really the main

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Speaker 5: thing that has come out of this.

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Speaker 2: So backbenches aren't bound by that position. What have we

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Speaker 2: seen so far from Liberal backbenches.

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Speaker 5: Well, straight away, one Liberal backbencher, Bridget Archer, who has

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Speaker 5: a bit of a record of making up her own

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Speaker 5: mind on a number of different issues and going against

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Speaker 5: the party position, she said pretty clearly that she would

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Speaker 5: be campaigning for Yes and she wouldn't in any way

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Speaker 5: support the nokay, so that was number one. There have

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Speaker 5: been reports of a few other backbenches, including potentially Senator

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Speaker 5: Andrew Bragg, another Liberal, who says there will be a

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Speaker 5: Liberals for Yes campaign. So there might be quite a

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Speaker 5: few back benches in the end to decide to take

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Speaker 5: Peter Dutton up on that offer and campaign for Yes.

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Speaker 5: But it's spread beyond the backbench. I mean, we're going

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Speaker 5: to come to Julian Lisa, who was literally the party's

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Speaker 5: shadow Indigenous Affairs Minister in a moment. But there were

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Speaker 5: a lot of others. So the Tasmanian Liberal government, the

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Speaker 5: only Liberal government left in the country, is a supporter

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Speaker 5: of the Voice. A number of state Liberal figures, Dominic Peretae,

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Speaker 5: former PM Malcolm Turnbull, a number of prominent Liberals have

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Speaker 5: come out in support of a Voice. One of the

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Speaker 5: big ones which is unfolded over the last week or

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Speaker 5: so has been Ken Wyatt. He was the first Indigenous

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Speaker 5: Australian to be elected to the House of Reps, first

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Speaker 5: Indigenous person to be the Minister for Indigenous Affairs. He's

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Speaker 5: a really, really significant Liberal figure. He lost his seat

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Speaker 5: at the last election. He has been a longtime supporter

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Speaker 5: of the Voice, but this week, over the Liberal decision

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Speaker 5: to oppose the Voice, he has quit as a party member.

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Speaker 5: He says he still believes in Liberal Party values, but

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Speaker 5: not what the party has become, and that he says,

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Speaker 5: you know, First Nations people are reaching out to be

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Speaker 5: heard and the Liberals have rejected their invitation.

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Speaker 2: That brings us to this week when we heard that

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Speaker 2: Julian Lisa, who you said was the Shadow Minister for

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Speaker 2: Indigenous Australians, had actually resigned from this position. Can we

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Speaker 2: talk about what led to this choice? Was it expected?

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Speaker 2: Was it unexpected?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: It was expected in part, I think. I mean, so

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Speaker 5: it's obviously a big deal. His job was Shadow Minister

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Speaker 5: for Indigenous Australians.

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Speaker 2: And he'd just done a press club speech.

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Speaker 5: He just done a press club speech, and he has

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Speaker 5: a long history of involvement in the Voice to Parliament

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Speaker 5: and that is actually why he was picked for this job.

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Speaker 5: He's got some issues about the wording of the constitutional change,

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Speaker 5: but regardless, he's a firm supporter of the Voice and

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Speaker 5: he wants to campaign for yes. So he's resigned from

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Speaker 5: his shadow ministries to allow him to do that.

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Speaker 3: A short time ago I resigned as a Shadow Attorney

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Speaker 3: General and Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians. I've had many

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Speaker 3: respectful discussions with colleagues about the Voice over the past year.

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Speaker 3: I've listened to their views and they've heard mine, but

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Speaker 3: ultimately I haven't been able to persuade them. The Liberal

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Speaker 3: Party believes in conscience and freedom. Unlike almost any other

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Speaker 3: party in the Parliament, the Liberal Party gives back benches

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Speaker 3: the freedom to champion the ideas they believe in. I

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Speaker 3: want to exercise that freedom because I intend to campaign

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Speaker 3: for Yes Fate.

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Speaker 2: Tom. There's been lots of existential musings about the state

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Speaker 2: of the Liberal Party, and you know we wrote about

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Speaker 2: it on the Feed last week, but specifically when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the Voice in this position, what does this

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Speaker 2: all mean for the Liberal Party now? To have so

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Speaker 2: many people resigning or trying to distance themselves, what does

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Speaker 2: it mean?

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Speaker 4: It's a it's a.

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Speaker 5: Big challenge for the Liberal Party. I mean, division is

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Speaker 5: always a bit of a bad look in politics. Parties

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Speaker 5: always want to look unified, so there's that. But I mean,

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Speaker 5: I think the way that I put it is that

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Speaker 5: Peter Dutton has gone all chips in on this now.

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Speaker 5: And you know, this is a time where the Liberal

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Speaker 5: Party is losing a lot. You know, it's lost a

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Speaker 5: lot of state elections recently, literally the week before this

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Speaker 5: meeting it copped a really really bad defeat at the

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Speaker 5: aston by election. So it is a time, as you say,

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Speaker 5: where the Liberal Party is asking a lot of existential

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Speaker 5: questions about well, what is our path back to being

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Speaker 5: a party of government? How long might we be looking

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Speaker 5: at sitting on the sidelines as an opposition? And there

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Speaker 5: are a whole bunch of different views in the Liberal

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Speaker 5: Party about which direction that they need to take. But

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Speaker 5: it's clear now that Peter Dutton, you know, particularly on

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Speaker 5: this issue, but on some other issues as well, has

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Speaker 5: decided that, you know, he really does want to oppose

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Speaker 5: a lot of the key things that the Labor is proposing,

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Speaker 5: and he's really gone all in on campaigning against the

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Speaker 5: Voice now. So I think, I mean a lot of

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Speaker 5: people are speculating that if the Voice gets up in

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Speaker 5: this referendum, that's a really damaging thing for Peter Dutton

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Speaker 5: having gone all in on that strategy. But even potentially

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Speaker 5: the Voice loses, that has risks for Peter Dutton as

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Speaker 5: leader as well, because remember I'm in part of the

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Speaker 5: reason that the Liberal Party lost the last election was

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Speaker 5: they lost a lot of seats to Independence in areas

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Speaker 5: where voters tended to be quite socially progressive, cared about

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Speaker 5: issues like climate change and integrity. I think a lot

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Speaker 5: of that applies to the Voice. Certainly a lot of

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Speaker 5: the Independence who beat them in those seats strong supporters

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Speaker 5: of the Voice, and they say their communities are as well.

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Speaker 5: So if Peter Dutton is associated with the defeat of

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Speaker 5: the Voice, that also has some risks for him as well.

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Speaker 5: It's a strategy that you know, he thinks and he

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Speaker 5: says a lot that you know, a lot of Australians

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Speaker 5: share his concerns with the Voice. You know, he may

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Speaker 5: well be right that that's an unknown question, but I

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Speaker 5: think there are an increasing number of Liberal voices who

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Speaker 5: are concerned, you know, about what this direction might mean

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Speaker 5: intellectoral terms, and certainly as the Voice goes on, it

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Speaker 5: is the kind of issue that might put some pressure

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Speaker 5: on Peter Dutton as the leader.

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Speaker 2: Tom The general consensus has been that for a referendum

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Speaker 2: to be successful, you do need bipartisan support, so you

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Speaker 2: need both the government and the opposition to support the idea.

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Speaker 2: Do we know how the government's feeling about the prospects

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Speaker 2: of the referendum.

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Speaker 5: Well, the government continues to say it's very confident in

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Speaker 5: the S campaign and certainly the latest polls suggest that

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Speaker 5: the S campaigns in the lead. You know, the Liberal

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Speaker 5: no will help the NO case that, there's no doubt

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Speaker 5: about that. But it's what I'm saying. I mean, this

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Speaker 5: idea that you need bipartisan support for a referendum to succeed.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's a theory, it's not a law of

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Speaker 5: the universe. And the reason people say that is, you know,

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Speaker 5: the referendum is a high bar for success, absolutely, and

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Speaker 5: I think there's generally a view that because constitutional changes

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Speaker 5: are such a big deal, it's much easier you know,

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Speaker 5: to kind of cast doubt in the minds of people

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Speaker 5: and go, well, if you're in doubt, it's safest not

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Speaker 5: to make the change, and so in that case, you know,

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Speaker 5: I think there's a general view that the no campaigns

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Speaker 5: on any referendum are easier to run. So there is that,

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Speaker 5: But you know, in terms of the Liberal parties position,

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Speaker 5: I think I would say it kind of matters and

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Speaker 5: all parties positions matter less than they do in any

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Speaker 5: other issue. I think we talked about this last time.

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Speaker 5: In the end, the seventy something Liberals who are in

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Speaker 5: the Federal Parliament are just seventy something out of millions

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Speaker 5: of Australians who vote on this.

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Speaker 2: They don't vote any differently. The vote has no greater way.

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Speaker 5: It has no greater weight. That's right. Referendum is supposed

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Speaker 5: to be something that people kind of reflect on themselves

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Speaker 5: and that isn't just about the politicians. So there is

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Speaker 5: no doubt that the kind of solidifying of the yes

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Speaker 5: and the No camps in federal politics is you know,

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Speaker 5: significant development and helps to give some shape to this campaign.

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Speaker 5: But no, you know, the task ahead of us all

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Speaker 5: is to have a discussion that doesn't just involve politicians

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Speaker 5: and to make our own minds up.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. We have focused until this point

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Speaker 2: on where the political parties sit on this issue, how

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Speaker 2: the Parliament will kind of fall on this. But ultimately,

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Speaker 2: now that that is confirmed, it moves out of there

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Speaker 2: and moves into the real world. That's certainly something that

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Speaker 2: we're going to explore on the POD and hear those

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Speaker 2: first nations voices on both sides of the spectrum and

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Speaker 2: how they feel about a voice Parliament.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us on the Daily OS this morning.

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Speaker 4: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to

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Speaker 4: hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting for you

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Speaker 4: every morning. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then, have

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Speaker 4: a great day.