1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: I am on a little break for a few weeks, 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: the last twelve months. I will be back with brand 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: today's chat. In an effort to make time for ourselves, 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: many of us fallback on using to do lists and 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: time blocking. But often these sorts of strategies can end 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: up with the same result, getting lost in chasing productivity. 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: So how do we make time for the things that 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: truly count Joining me for a third time on How 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: I Work is Oliver Berkman, one of my favorite writers. 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: You might have come across Oliver through the international bestseller 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: four one thousand Weeks, Time Management for Mortals, or his 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: regular columns for The Guardian, But what I love most 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: about Oliver's work is that he flips traditional productivity advice 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: on its head and gives a completely different way of 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: looking at how we use time. With his new book, 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: Meditation for Mortals four Weeks to Embrace Your limitations and 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: Make Time for What Counts, which is out now, Oliver 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: has been thinking a lot about how we can all 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: claw back time for the things that really matter. In 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: this episode. We explore the mindset you should be using 23 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: when you first approach a task if you want it 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: to be achieved easily, and why allowing yourself to be 25 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: distracted can actually create a positive result. We also chat 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: about the strategy you should be utilizing instead of a 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: to do list if you want to get the most 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: out of your day. Welcome to How I Work, a 29 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your day. 30 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber. Oliver's new book, Meditation 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: for Mortals is packed full of wisdom and advice. I 32 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: wanted to know of everything that Oliver wrote about, which 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: pieces of advice really stuck with him and changed him 34 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: the most. 35 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: I seem not able to write anything other than what 36 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: feels most compelling to me on the day that I'm 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: writing it. And that applies to the whole book in 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: the sense that, like you know, these are the things 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: I have to grapple with, and then it applies on 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: the level of individual chapters through the process of writing 41 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: a book, so it feels like the answer that changes 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: every day basically, but in terms of specifics. This book 43 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: is organized into four weeks, as you know, and with 44 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: a sort of short chapter per day for each of 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: those weeks, not that I can control how people actually 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: read it, but that's the sort of idea. And the 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: third week in there is called letting Go, and it's 48 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: about the importance of learning to sort of let things 49 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: happen as a sort of compliment to making them happen, 50 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: and kind of unclenching from life a bit. And basically 51 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: all of that material is the stuff I sort of 52 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: needed the most at the point that I was putting 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: that together, and you know still now. So all that 54 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: stuff about, for example, the willingness to let things be 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: easy and not to sort of head into big projects 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 2: or life stages or anything like that with the kind 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: of assumption that they must be going to be grueling 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: and take a lot of unpleasant effort. That means a 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: lot to me, because it's still one of the ones 60 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: that I sort of grapple with the most. 61 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: I suppose I love that I did write that down. Actually, 62 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: it's something I wanted to delve into because it's a 63 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 1: question that I sometimes think about, and I've written it here. 64 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: What if this might be a lot easier then I'd 65 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: been assuming, I think was the wording from the book, 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: and I was actually curious, like, well, how do you 67 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: apply it every day? But I also wanted to know 68 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: to this book project, and particularly following up on four 69 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: thousand Weeks, which was such a mega hit around the 70 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: world world, And I mean, you've written several books, and 71 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: so it wasn't like that second album syndrome they talk 72 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: about for musicians maybe this is like your fourth or 73 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: fifth album syndrome. But I wanted to know for this 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: project in particular, how did you apply that advice and 75 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: did you? 76 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: Well, No, it was a bit like second album syndrome, 77 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: because you know, it's true that I had written a 78 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: previous book, The Antidote, and also a collection of columns 79 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: called Help, which was a book and is a book, 80 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: But I hadn't had to write in the same way, right, 81 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: because it was just a question of collecting and editing 82 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: some previously written material. But certainly four thousand Weeks was 83 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: far and away the most sort of successful thing that 84 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: I'd written at the point that it was published. And 85 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: so yeah, I think there was a very sort of cliche, 86 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 2: a completely predictable and rather tiresome to talk too much 87 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: about phenomenon where I sort of froze a bit and 88 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: thought like, oh dear, now, if I mess up, more 89 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: people going to be watching. So I did kind of 90 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: a little bit to some extent, sort of freeze and headlights. 91 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,559 Speaker 2: And it was interesting because it sort of brought into 92 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: my writing process a lot of the questions that I 93 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: was already focused on in what I wanted to put 94 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: into the book, and it sort of made them very, 95 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: very alive. And I've found this in the past, right, 96 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: something about the process of writing books will sort of 97 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: foreground the things that you're grappling with in the substance 98 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: of the book, and actually, you know, you end up, 99 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: I think, and I hope being able to express them 100 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: more authentically because you actually sort of have to go 101 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: through a version of that struggle to get the book written. 102 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: And I did have to find ways to allow the 103 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: possibility that it was more doable than I thought. But 104 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: the basic gist of that was to sort of keep 105 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: coming back and back and back. I don't think there's 106 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: a single way to flip the switch, but keep coming 107 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: back to this thought that maybe what I was ready 108 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: to do and able to do in terms of the 109 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: next paragraph in the next chapter was what needed to 110 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: be done, and now. 111 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: Just like in your day to day work, how do 112 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: you apply that principle of just having things be a 113 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: whole lot easier than you'd otherwise assume. 114 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: I mean, a couple of things come to mind. One 115 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: is that I do think and I wish this wasn't 116 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: the case, but I do think that a lot of 117 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: these insights are just a matter of returning to them 118 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: and returning to them and returning to them and gradually 119 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: sort of strengthening the mental muscle that allows you to 120 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: remember them. So it's sort of catching yourself from one 121 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: minute to the next, and it's actually quite sort of 122 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 2: physical for me, right sort of I find that I'm 123 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: actually sort of tensed against the work. It's in my 124 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: musculature somehow. And catching yourself doing that and just sort 125 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: of stepping back from it and thinking like, oh, maybe 126 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 2: that's not necessary is very powerful maybe to get a 127 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: little bit more practical. The other thing that makes a 128 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: big difference there is the idea of really just thinking 129 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: about the very next thing and the very next thing, 130 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: so sort of using methods of productivity, methods of planning 131 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: the day, and there are lots of different ones that 132 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: having common this focus on like, Okay, what's the next small, 133 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: completable thing, the sort of radically doable little task that 134 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 2: I want to pick and then put into practice. Now 135 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: you can't do things like write a book or even 136 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: write a chapter. You can do things like that, come 137 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: up with a rough plan for the first half of 138 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: the chapter, and that's when I can get it down 139 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: underneath that threshold of what feels doable, back into that 140 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: easier way of working. 141 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: I love that idea of picking the thing that feels 142 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: radically doable that will stick with me. I think something 143 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: else that this relates to, and I want to say, 144 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: this might have been in the Letting Go section is 145 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: around developing a taste for problems, and you write about 146 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: how we kind of go through life and think, oh, 147 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: one day all the problems will be gone and there 148 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: will just be no problems to deal with, but of 149 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: course we know that that is not the case. It's 150 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: like it's so simple, but it's also it's like it's 151 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: quite profound when you actually think about it. I want 152 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: to know, like, how does that work and resonate for you, 153 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: like on a day to day basis. Is it one 154 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: of those things that you do just keep coming back 155 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: to because I was very curious about that. 156 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: I write in the book about this story that Sam 157 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: Harris tells about, you know, being a coffee. I think 158 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: it is at lunch with a friend one day and 159 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: going on and on about all the problems he was 160 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: addressing in his work or whatever it was, and her 161 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: interrupting him in mid flow and saying, hold on, are 162 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: you still under the impression you're going to get to 163 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: the part of your life where you don't have any problems? 164 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: And he sort of recounts the experience of realizing, like, oh, yes, 165 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: there is kind of something in the stance I've had 166 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: towards life that implies, yeah, not only that a given 167 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: problem might be difficult depending on its content, but that 168 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: like I shouldn't have problems. I'm trying to get through 169 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: to the point in life where there aren't problems. And 170 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: I sort of explain in the book why this isn't 171 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: going to happen, and you wouldn't want it to happen, right. 172 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: There are certainly specific kinds of problems that you wouldn't 173 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: wish on anybody, but the sort of sheer existence of 174 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: problems on some level is the synonymous of having meaningful work. 175 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: Ahead of you, but I try increasingly to have some 176 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: kind of direction, have some kind of vision. I don't. 177 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: It's not purely about just stumbling through the dark, but 178 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: not to try very hard to link that up to 179 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: moment to moment action. So I'm really trying. It's very 180 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: much a work in progress, but I'm really trying to 181 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 2: combine that idea of like having a fairly clear sense 182 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: of what I'm trying to create here with a very 183 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: very much more intuitive and spontaneous even sense of like, Okay, 184 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: what feels like the right thing to do next. 185 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: I want to talk about worrying, and you talk about 186 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: this idea of most of the bridges that we worry 187 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: about never end up being crossed. Can you tell me 188 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: more about that, and just on a day to day basis, 189 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: how do you live that? Because I really struggle with 190 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: that one. 191 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, me too, And that's why it was interesting 192 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: for me to write about it. The It is kind 193 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: of fascinating, And I think one way of understanding worry 194 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: is that it's the sort of attempt by a human 195 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: being who is inherently limited to the present moment. One 196 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: of the many ways in which were limited is we're 197 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: sort of temporarily localized. We wish we could sort of 198 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: also be in the future checking up on it, making 199 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: sure that everything's going to be fine, but we can't, 200 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: and so worry is this sort of mental discomfort that 201 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: arises from trying to repeatedly sort of get out there 202 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: and secure a place in time that we're not actually 203 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: in and never are in. And you know, if I 204 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: wanted to get sort of evolutionary psychology about it, which 205 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: I don't usually want to do very much, but you know, 206 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 2: you could see how perhaps we sort of evolved in 207 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: an environment where where having that concern and then dealing 208 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: with it was something that happened in a very short order. 209 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: Like you hear a sound, you're worried about it, you 210 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: check it out, you realize it's no threat to your safety. 211 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: Now we live in this world that's been called a 212 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: you know, delayed return environment, where the thing you're worrying 213 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: about could well be whether how an editor will respond 214 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: to a pitch you've made sometime in the next four weeks, 215 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: or whether an attempt to purchase a house will go 216 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: through at some point in the next two months. You know, 217 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: all these kinds of slow things, whether worry just has 218 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: nowhere to go. It doesn't motivate a quick action to 219 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: get to deal with the worry. It just sort of curdle. 220 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: And I think the thing about crossing bridges is, yeah, 221 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: there's another way of making the same point. Really, we're 222 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: trying to sort of think through all the things that 223 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: could go wrong, think our way through what we do, 224 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: and reassure ourselves that that will have gone okay if 225 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 2: that happens. You can't ever be certain that something goes 226 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: okay until it's gone okay. So trying to cross bridges 227 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: before you get to them, in that sense, is just 228 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: a recipe for that kind of unpleasant, anxious state of constantly, 229 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: repetitively trying to do it and failing. There are all 230 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: sorts of ideas in cognitive therapy and elsewhere about you know, 231 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 2: scheduling a time of day in which to worry and 232 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: things like this, and I think it does help some 233 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 2: people to do something like that. The version of that 234 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: that I find helpful is to market date in my 235 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: calendar maybe three four weeks in the future, to sort 236 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: of remind myself to focus again on that topic. And 237 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: I find that knowing that that's there and it's coming 238 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: up in the calendar is incredibly powerful in terms of 239 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: enabling me to let go of it in the present. 240 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: If it's still a big issue four weeks from now, 241 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: then I will kick into worrying about it again. I 242 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: sort of on some level, I'm concerned that if I 243 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: were to stop worrying about it, I might completely forget 244 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: about it. Right, And it's wild, right as parents, if 245 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: you're worried about some issue with your child's welfare, like, 246 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: I'm not going to forget about that, It's ridiculous. But 247 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: some part of me doesn't trust myself. And it's like, 248 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: if I let go and just got into the thing 249 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: I was working on today, maybe like ten years later, 250 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: I'd be like, oh, no, everything's gone terribly wrong in 251 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: life because I completely failed to attend to this thing. 252 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 2: So putting that kind of three or four weeks ahead 253 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: thing in I find really effective because then I can 254 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: be like, okay, just in case I completely forget about 255 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 2: this important thing that will come back into my world. 256 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: I love that I've experimented myself with having a worry 257 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: list and then setting a daily worry time and confining 258 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: my worrying to that time of day, and I found 259 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: that quite effective. But what I like about what you've 260 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: just suggested is that it's almost like a test of 261 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: a hypothesis. And the more and more you're like, if 262 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: everything you worry about you actually just put in the 263 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: diary to spend some time thinking about a couple of 264 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: weeks from today, and then every time you get to 265 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: those things, like nine times out of ten, you're going 266 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: to think, what was I even worrying about that never 267 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: eventuated into anything, which I feel then feeds, you know, 268 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: the like a more sensible hypothesis and theory that actually 269 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: I worry about things that I don't even need to 270 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: be spending time worrying about. So I really I enjoy that. 271 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: Yes, and even in the one time out of ten, right, 272 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: then it comes around and you're like, Okay, what are 273 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: some the chances are you'll be in a better place 274 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 2: to just sort of figure out some actions that you 275 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: could take relative to it. 276 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, now you're right. Even though you're I would 277 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: say an anti productivity guru, if that is a thing, 278 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,359 Speaker 1: you do have some really good pieces of advice around 279 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: how we can I guess, make the best use of 280 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: our time and think differently about things. And I want 281 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: to talk more about this idea of treating your to 282 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: do list as a menu. Can you tell me more 283 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: about that? 284 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: So I guess where this started off in my thinking 285 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: is in another chapter of this book, where I'm talking 286 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: about not to do lists, but like you're sort of 287 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: to read pile or your digital folder of articles save 288 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: to read later, and how not very much reflection on 289 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: how content works in the twenty first century will reveal 290 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: that this is essentially an endless list. The better technology 291 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: gets at filtering information, the more stuff we find coming 292 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: our way that we feel like we really need to 293 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: read or would be really important for our jobs or something. 294 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: And I wrote then about how it can be really 295 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: helpful to see that kind of collection of things not 296 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: as a bucket but as a river. Right, So this 297 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: is just an possibly helpful analogy, not as something you've 298 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: got to sort of deal with an empty but as 299 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: a sort of flow of things that goes by you, 300 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: and your only job is to pick a few things 301 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: that seem interesting and not to feel guilty about the 302 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: ones that go by. And I find that very useful 303 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 2: in my own approach to literally that topic. You know, 304 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: the four hundred articles that I've got stored in a 305 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: read it later app If I think that it's my 306 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: job to get through them, firstly, I won't approach them 307 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: in the most creatively helpful or enjoyable way. But secondly, 308 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: also like, that's not the end of it. There'll be 309 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: another four hundred in a short time. So treating them 310 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: as like, well, what actually still feels compelling and let 311 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: the rest go is much more powerful. But the more 312 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: I thought about this, the more I realized that you know, 313 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: in a sense, every list of things, even things that 314 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: feel much more obligatory than a to read pile, every 315 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: list of things has the same character because if there 316 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: are more things that you could meaningfully usefully do with 317 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: a day, then you will be able to actually do 318 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,119 Speaker 2: with the day. Then you are, in fact picking items 319 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: for now and letting the rest go, whether you like 320 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: it or not. So to switch screech of breaks, to 321 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: switch metaphor into menus. The point there is that we 322 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: don't get stressed by a rest Most people anyway don't 323 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: get stressed by a restaurant menu. And if you do 324 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: get stressed, it's not because you think it's your job 325 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: to get through the whole list right at a single sitting. 326 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: The fact that a restaurant menu is long and you 327 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: get to pick a few things from it is kind 328 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: of the point of a restaurant menu and what makes 329 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: it pleasurable. And you can actually see that the same 330 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: thing applies to our to do lists, right because obviously 331 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 2: a lot of the things we're going to be doing 332 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: are not necessarily going to be as fun as eating 333 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: a delicious meal. But if there's more more that we 334 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: could do than we're going to get to do in 335 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: a day, then by definition, what you're doing when you 336 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: look at a do list is picking a few items 337 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: and choosing a few things that feel most compelling, most important, 338 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: most meaningful, and not expecting to get through the whole 339 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: of it. And there is quite a deep potential shift here, 340 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: which is summed up in that sort of familiar phrase. 341 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: But it's not that the items on a list, when 342 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: you viewed like that, stop being things that you have 343 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: to do and become things that you that you get 344 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: to do. You get to pick from a menu, and 345 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: we do get to pick from our to do lists. Again, 346 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: we may decide that certain things that we're going to 347 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: pick us kind of unpleasant. In the same way that 348 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 2: I suppose you might pick a extremely healthy side dish 349 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: and a menu that you didn't particularly like because actually 350 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: it's part of your long term goal to eat healthily. 351 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 2: But there is something really important in letting go of 352 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: that notion that you've failed unless you get through the list. 353 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: And I think that seeing and understanding our list as 354 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: infinite is the way to do that, because then just 355 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 2: like that's not happening. 356 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: Something else I really liked as an idea in this 357 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: book is around setting a quantity goal. Can you tell 358 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: me more about that, because I think that's particularly interesting 359 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: for knowledge workers like us. 360 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, there are other contexts in which 361 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: the idea of quantifying your life and measuring everything you 362 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: do can be quite sort of detrimental, and I sort 363 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: of don't recommend it, but I'm always one for picking 364 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: the right technique for the context and contradicting myself wherever 365 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 2: I feel like it. And the context of quantity goals, 366 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: I think that if you do any kind of creative work, 367 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: and that I would define very broadly, there is this 368 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: tendency to set things up in your mind so that 369 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: you can never feel like you've done something well enough, 370 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 2: or that you've done it to a sufficiently high quality. 371 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 2: So the way that you sort of, or the way 372 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: that I sort of naturally, if I don't catch myself, 373 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: proceeds as a writer is sort of to sit there 374 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 2: staring at the screen waiting for something really good to 375 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: occur to me. Finally, maybe it does, and I type 376 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: it out, and then I sort of judge it again 377 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 2: and realize it is in. I delete half of it, 378 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: and you sort of make this incredibly halting progress over 379 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: the page. And it's actually antithetical to high quality anyway, 380 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: because the way to get to high quality is to 381 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 2: is to allow things to flow and then pick from 382 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: what flows out. So the idea of a quantity goal 383 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 2: is just that it gives the part of your brain 384 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 2: that wants to think in terms of goals and progress 385 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: and productivity something to do. But it's something to do 386 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: that sort of doesn't get involved in the quality arguments. 387 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: So for someone writing, this could be simply a question 388 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: of like, my next job is to add two hundred 389 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: words to this, or my next job is to write 390 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 2: for an hour today, or you know. And the most 391 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: sort of purely quantity form of this is the kind 392 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: of free writing exercise that I was talking about before, 393 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: where you might just say, like, I'm setting a timer 394 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 2: for ten minutes, and the only rule is that I'm 395 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: not going to stop typing or writing for that ten minutes, 396 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 2: and you know that is not going to create the 397 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: final draft of a publishable book. But that's not the point. 398 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 2: The point is to stay in this world of letting 399 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: things flow out to see what there might be to 400 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 2: be worked with. So I find there's something really sort 401 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: of something that really sort of removes the drama from 402 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: things by setting a quantity goal, because the other problem 403 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 2: with the quality goal is that it's really hard to express, 404 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: like what does it even mean to say, I'm going 405 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: to try and write this chapter as well as I 406 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: possibly can, or really excellently, or as well as the 407 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: last one. These are just kind of endlessly flexible definitions 408 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: that you will by default flex in the direction of 409 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: feeling bad about yourself. Yeah. So, I'm very often in 410 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: my creative work, either sometimes literally writing it down, sometimes 411 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 2: it's just in my mind, but I'm thinking, like, Okay, 412 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: what I'm doing now next is a twenty minute brain 413 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 2: dump on this topic. What I'm doing next is filling 414 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: a single page with a little structure diagram because that's 415 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 2: how I work. But the point about the quantity there 416 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: is it's like filling a single page. It's not getting 417 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 2: the perfect structure, and so on and so on. 418 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 1: We will be back with Oliver soon and when we return, 419 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: we'll be discussing why being open to distractions can be 420 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: beneficial and the strategy you can use instead of a 421 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: to do list to make the most of your day. 422 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 423 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter 424 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 425 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 426 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot com. I feel like this dovetails perhaps 427 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: into running a done list at the end of the day, 428 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: and I think it's fairly self explanatory perhaps, but maybe 429 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: I'd love you to talk about how you use a 430 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: done list and perhaps what it is in your work. 431 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, well as a list you keep 432 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: through the day, probably rather than necessarily just at the 433 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: end of the day. So, and this is very adaptable. 434 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: You know, if there are people listening and watching who 435 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: have really complicated, tricked out task management systems like I'm 436 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: not suggesting throwing that away. It's just a question of 437 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: building this in and making sure that it's got a role, 438 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: just a role for recording proactively for things that you 439 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: do as you do them, so that you as well 440 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: as a to do list, or instead of a to 441 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 2: do list, you're also creating this list of your accomplishments 442 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: through the day that gets longer and longer as the 443 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: day goes on, which I mean to do lists often 444 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: tend to get longer and longer as the day goes 445 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 2: on as well, but that's a problem. This is a 446 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: good thing, right, the longer you have done with better 447 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: And as I've say in the book, you know, it's 448 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: a very simple intervention, but I think it is so 449 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: powerful because it invites you to compare your output, not 450 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: to infinity, which is what we're usually doing, that all 451 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: the things we could yet do that would be useful 452 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: if we could do them, but to zero. It's implicitly 453 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, here's what I've done compared to 454 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: if I stayed in bed and done nothing today. So 455 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: you know, I definitely cycle through the ways I'm actually 456 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 2: doing this in my own life, and actually, maybe that's 457 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: something to talk about I'm glad that I do that 458 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: now I'm not in search of the final rigid system 459 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: in the way that I definitely used to be. But 460 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 2: one way that you can put this into practice, obviously 461 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: is just writing. Is just you know, adding items to 462 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: a piece of paper as you go through them. If 463 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: I'm in more of a sort of a motivational rut, 464 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 2: I will sometimes pair this with another approach. So what 465 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 2: I'll do is, I'll it's going to sound very silly 466 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 2: when I put it into words, but you know, I 467 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: will in a notebook, on one page, write down a 468 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: task that I to do, do the task, cross it out, 469 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: and then write it down on a different page as 470 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 2: being done. Right, so you have a list of the 471 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: things that you're doing. You just added one task at 472 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: a time, and then a list of the things that 473 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 2: you've done. I mean, I'm willing to be told that 474 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: this is kind of dumb on some level, but I 475 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: find it it's really it's really helpful for just sort 476 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 2: of focusing when you're feeling like you lack focus, and 477 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: just finally on the done list. I mean, one thing 478 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: that people have said and that I think I have 479 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: once or twice found myself as well, is that if 480 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: you're in a really low place, like if you're really 481 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 2: in a kind of like I can't quite make myself 482 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: get out of bed kind of psychological place in life, 483 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: which does happen, you can just lower the bar for 484 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 2: what counts as something to be added to your done list. Right, 485 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: there is something weirdly motivational, something that gets the ball 486 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: rolling about keeping a list in a notebook where you say, 487 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: you know, took a shower, made coffee, things that you 488 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't normally qualify as counters accomplishments because two below the 489 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 2: level of significance. But if you do that, you know 490 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: you don't need to show anyone else this list. You can. 491 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 2: You can burn it at the end of the day, 492 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: and very swiftly people find that it snowballs. Right that 493 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: you find that if you see, oh, actually, okay, this 494 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: narrative inside me that says I'm totally useless, I've already 495 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 2: done like five effective things today, and yeah, maybe one 496 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: of them was brush my teeth, but like, okay, maybe 497 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: two or three hours later, I'll have graduated to answering 498 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 2: some emails. 499 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: That's so good. Something that I was thinking about after 500 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: I read it around. You know, there's a section around 501 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: staying distractible, which of course is the antithesis to a 502 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: lot of productivity advice out there. And I know that 503 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: you're a fan of Cal Newport in deep work and 504 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: the idea of having blocks of uninterrupted, deep focused time. 505 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: So I was really curious as to how do you 506 00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: apply this idea of being open to distractions and interruptions 507 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: rather than feeling frustrated with them or with children that 508 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: come in and interrupt work. 509 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's funny, I sort of. I did 510 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: a podcast with Cal just a few weeks ago, and 511 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: I sort of really enjoy exploring this sort of tension point. 512 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 2: The conversation between us tends to be like I say, like, well, 513 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: you know, but it's really grueling and hard to try 514 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: to impose that level of schedule of your life, and 515 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: Colsponts is like, yeah, but it's worth it. So, like, 516 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 2: you know, buck up. On some level, this is not wrong. 517 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: I'm not sort of against the deep work approach. I'm 518 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: not against time blocking in the sense that he teaches 519 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: it at all. A lot of this is to do 520 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: with navigating against one's personality and figuring out where you're 521 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 2: most likely to sort of get too rigid and clamp 522 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: down and taking the opposite approach as a kind as 523 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 2: an antidote to that. So, but what I'm talking about 524 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: there is this notion that it's really easy, I think, 525 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: or for some people people like me, to kind of 526 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 2: make things worse for themselves by trying to sort of 527 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: stick to a schedule so rigid that more things get 528 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: defined as distractions, and distractions all feel worse when they 529 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: do happen, or interruptions, And that distraction, I guess, is 530 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: an internal kind of interruption, and then the other kind 531 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 2: is people coming into the room or whatever. So the 532 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: example I give him the book. You know, if it's 533 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 2: an afternoon when it's not my turn for school pickup 534 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: and I'm working at home and my son burst into 535 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 2: the room to tell me about something that he's done 536 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: at school that day, there might be contexts where the 537 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: right thing for me to do is to stop and 538 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: take a breath and explain that actually, I can't listen 539 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: right now and I will be free later. That I 540 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 2: might be working on something urgent, I might be in 541 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: a conversation with somebody. This could happen in the next 542 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: five minutes it'll be interesting to see. But I don't 543 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: want to have a productivity system that has defined this 544 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: period as so importantly devoted to rigid focus that by definition, 545 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: that lovely thing that life is supposed to be about 546 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: is defined as a problem. I'm not saying it will 547 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 2: never be something that needs to be managed in that way, 548 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: but like, don't default to that. Don't start from the 549 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: position that unexpected things happening must be bad. I think 550 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: that is the risk of sort of overly investing in schedules. Obviously, 551 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: there'll be people in the audience here who may say, well, 552 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: you know, my schedule is you know, there are lots 553 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: of professional roles in which your schedule is more dictated 554 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: than that, right, if you've got appointments, if you're working 555 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 2: as a teacher, or working in sort of lots of 556 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: different settings where there's kind of a scheduled aspect to it. 557 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: But to whatever extent you have that autonomy, you don't 558 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: want to use that autonomy to make serendipity inherently the enemy. 559 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: One of the ways that I seek to sort of 560 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: operationalize that I guess in my working life is to 561 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: relate to another chapter in the but where I talk 562 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: about this kind of three or four hour rule of creativity, 563 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: where you see all the way through history, great creative 564 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: people are choosing to spend about three or four hours 565 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: a day on their core activity if they have the 566 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: freedom to do that, and then everything else and the 567 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: rest of the time. So something I try to do 568 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: to emulate that is like, Okay, I'm going to try 569 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: really hard to ring fence several hours in the morning 570 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: for writing, very few exceptions to that. That tends to 571 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: work best for my energy. So I'm trying to keep 572 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 2: that time free, to try to exert quite a lot 573 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: of control over time. But the crucial flip side of 574 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: that is I'm not going to try to do that 575 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: with the rest of the working day or the evening. 576 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: I'm going to say, okay, after lunch or however I 577 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: do it. Then I am just more open to things. 578 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: Then I'm willing to make more appointments and willing to 579 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 2: be I'm going to be interrupted. I'm going to have 580 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: my phone on the desk so that i can respond 581 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 2: to messages. So that I think is a way of 582 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: kind of finding the balance between structure and serendipity. 583 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: I really like that. It feels like instead of I guess, 584 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,719 Speaker 1: like a rigid time boxed schedule, which in a way 585 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: is not particularly resilient. What you're describing feels like quite 586 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: an anti fragile kind of system, if you know what 587 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean. 588 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: I think that's a lovely way of putting it. I mean, 589 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: and now I want to say, in cal Newport's defense 590 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: now that he needs my defenses. 591 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: Certainly doesn't He's going quite fine that. 592 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: I think I can imagine him saying now if he 593 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 2: was in this conversation too, that making a very clear 594 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: time blocked schedule for your day is not the same 595 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: point as saying I have failed if I adapt it right. 596 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: So in his like time block planning approach and everything, 597 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: there's always these extra columns to the right hand side 598 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: of the main time block for adapting and adapting is 599 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: the point. And I think there's something to be said 600 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: for the idea of a very clear plan, very loosely held. 601 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: For me, the way that works best is if there 602 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: are chunks of the day which are not specifically assigned 603 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: in advanced to specific tasks. But you know, maybe we're 604 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: all agreeing really here at the end of the day. 605 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: I do think that the thing I'm happy to sort 606 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: of be against is the idea that like setting it 607 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: up in your mind so that if reality unfolds in 608 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 2: ways that were not fully within your control, you've messed up, 609 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: because that's just like living in a world that doesn't exist. 610 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: The final thing I wanted to ask you, Oliver, is 611 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: just around your information diet, and you kind of touched 612 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: on it before and in terms of treating all the 613 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: things that we could be reading as a river as 614 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: opposed to a bucket that is filling up, and it 615 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: reminded me of this conversation I had with a friend 616 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 1: of mine who's in creative fields and does a lot 617 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: of writing, and she said to me a few years back, 618 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: she said, I've just had the realization I've done the 619 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: calculations of how many books I can read in a 620 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: year and probably how long my life will be, and 621 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: I've just realized I'm not going to have time to 622 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: read all the books that I want to read in 623 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: this lifetime. And that really stuck with me. And when 624 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: I read sort Of how you talk about sort of 625 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: there is infinite information out there, and for you as 626 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: a writer, and when your research books as well, how 627 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: do you decide what to read what to like, dedicate 628 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: your precious attention to. 629 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fraud issue. I think that the approach 630 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: that I'm gradually but successfully sort of easing my way 631 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: into is just a much more fluid one. So it's 632 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: fluid in the sense of treating the list of potential 633 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: books as articles as a river. As we've spoken about 634 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: like picking from things and not feeling bad about the others. 635 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: Its treating individual books in that way, being willing to 636 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 2: read bits and not necessarily, you know, feel the burden 637 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: of having to complete them. I think also it's the 638 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: willingness to not try too hard to retain what you're reading. 639 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: There's this thing a foot everywhere now in sort of 640 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 2: personal knowledge management about how you've got to try to 641 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: remember everything you read. And I'm just like, maybe in 642 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: certain you know, if you're training in the law or 643 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: in medicine, there are context where you have to remember 644 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: the things that you read. In that way, the rest 645 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: of us don't need to do that. Right, you can 646 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: say that if something's relevant, it's going to stick to 647 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: some extent, and you know, if you forget about it, 648 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: then that's a filter, right, The fact that something stays 649 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 2: or doesn't stay tells you something about it's relevance. So 650 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: there isn't a sort of answer to how I choose 651 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: what to read other than what I feel drawn to 652 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: and learning to trust that sort of instinct of what 653 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: feels enjoyable and interesting and when a book feels like 654 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: it's like I'm done with it, even though I may 655 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 2: never finished it and all the rest of it. I 656 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: think that's the thing we need to cultivate. 657 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: I love that, Oliver. I could continue talking for hours. 658 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: I love your work so much. There was just so 659 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: much wisdom in here. Sorry, I have a feeling I'll 660 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: be going back and rereading it and not trying to 661 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: remember anything, but just knowing that it's there if I 662 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: need it. So thank you so much for being here 663 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: very early. Hopefully the sun has risen, But thank you 664 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: so much for your time. 665 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: Slowly, slowly. Yeah, I knew it would be a pleasure, 666 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: and it was. Thank you so much. A month I've 667 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 2: enjoyed it. 668 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: I hope you love this chat with Oliver as much 669 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: as I did. He shed so many nuggets of wisdom 670 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: that I am personally very excited to implement in my 671 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: own life. And if you want to learn more about Oliver. 672 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking out his new book, Meditation for 673 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: Mortals four Weeks to embrace your limitations and make time 674 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: for what counts. We've put links to that and his 675 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: website in the show notes. If you like today's show, 676 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to 677 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was 678 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part 679 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: of the Coulan nation.