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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily os It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty fourth of August.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara Seidler, I'm Sam Kazlowski.

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Speaker 2: Fifty million people are living in modern slavery around the world,

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Speaker 2: and despite efforts by countries like Australia to respond to

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Speaker 2: modern slavery, ten million more people are enslaved than they

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Speaker 2: were in twenty sixteen. In today's deep dive, we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk to Grace Forrest, the founder of Walk Free

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Speaker 2: and International Human Rights Group, about how we can eradicate

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Speaker 2: modern slavery.

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Speaker 4: I think people think of historical slavery and exploitation.

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Speaker 2: I think, oh, gosh, you know, thing of the past.

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Speaker 4: We would never let that happen in this day and age,

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Speaker 4: and yet it is happening.

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Speaker 2: Before we get there, though, Sam, what is making headlines

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Speaker 2: this morning.

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Speaker 3: It's a pretty big news morning. We have what we

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Speaker 3: believe to be the date for the Indigenous Voice referendum.

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Speaker 3: We're going to have to wait until next Wednesday for

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Speaker 3: the official announcement that will happen when Prime Minister Anthony

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Speaker 3: Abenezi visits Adelaide. October fourteenth has been widely tipped as

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Speaker 3: the referendum date.

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Speaker 2: Australia's population growth is expected to slow significantly over the

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Speaker 2: next forty years. The government's Intergenerational Report, which is out today,

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Speaker 2: forecasts the population will grow at its slowest rate since

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Speaker 2: federation in nineteen oh one. The report also flagged Australia's

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Speaker 2: aging population will likely see a future surge in demand

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Speaker 2: for care services.

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Speaker 3: Woolworths has recorded a one point six two billion dollar

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Speaker 3: profit for the twenty twenty two to twenty three financial year.

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Speaker 3: That's up four point six percent on the previous year.

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Speaker 3: The supermarket giants said it benefited from a return to

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Speaker 3: stable shopping habits following the pandemic, but saw challenges from

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Speaker 3: inflation and supply chain disruptions.

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Speaker 2: And the good news. Sam Kerr, who of course is

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Speaker 2: the Matilda's captain and someone we are well acquainted with. Now,

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Speaker 2: she's announced that she's going to set up a new

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Speaker 2: school to give young Aussies access to the soccer training

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Speaker 2: and tools that she didn't have before she became a professional.

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Speaker 2: Sam Kerr Football is set to begin later this year

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Speaker 2: and it's designed for young boys and girls aged between

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Speaker 2: three and fourteen years old. Fifty million people live in

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Speaker 2: slavery today. That's according to data from walk free an

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Speaker 2: international human rights group. They publish detailed progress reports on

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Speaker 2: the prevalence of modern slavery and how the world is

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Speaker 2: responding to explain what modern slavery is and what we

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Speaker 2: can do to end it. I'm joined by walk Freeze

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Speaker 2: founder Grace Forrest. Grace, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 2: us today on the pod.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for me.

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Speaker 2: I wantn't just start at the very beginning because I

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Speaker 2: feel like, honestly, until I met you, the term modern

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Speaker 2: slavery really wasn't something I was familiar with, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: can you just explain to us what it is so?

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Speaker 4: Modern slavery includes terms like forced labor, forced marriage, debt bondage,

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Speaker 4: human trafficking, and state imposed forced labor, and what all

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Speaker 4: of these things have in common is that a person

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Speaker 4: is unable to refuse or leave that situation. We're looking

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Speaker 4: down the barrel of some fifty million people living in

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Speaker 4: modern slavery in the world today, residing in every single

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Speaker 4: country in the world, and very much underpinning our global economy.

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Speaker 2: We know that the number of people currently living in

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Speaker 2: modern slavery has actually gone up. I think it's something

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Speaker 2: like ten million people since twenty sixteen. Can you just

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Speaker 2: explain why is that number actually going up rather than backwards.

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Speaker 4: Look, I think we're looking straight down the barrel of

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Speaker 4: increasing vulnerability to exploitation and a lack of access to

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Speaker 4: human rights and frankly diminishing political will on the subject.

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Speaker 4: The last five years have been everyone's favorite word unprecedented,

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Speaker 4: in relation to compounding crises, and I think that the

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Speaker 4: reality is that these crises have not been felt evenly

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Speaker 4: throughout the world. So the world's most vulnerable people have

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Speaker 4: been hit hardest and fastest by climate related disaster, certainly

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Speaker 4: by COVID nineteen. And also we've seen an increase in

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Speaker 4: protracted conflict throughout the world. Ukraine actually happened outside of

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Speaker 4: our catchment period, but thirteen million people displaced from that country,

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Speaker 4: and Afghanistan shutting down in that meantime, and the rights

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Speaker 4: of women and girls being taken directly off the table.

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Speaker 4: All of these things further vulnerability. And I think one

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Speaker 4: thing I would definitely draw us to with the index

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Speaker 4: is we very much look at who is responsible for

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Speaker 4: increases of modern slavery, and it is very much people

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Speaker 4: in power, be it from businesses or governments. And the

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Speaker 4: G twenty countries account for half a trillion dollar import

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Speaker 4: risk of goods made u using forced labor. And I

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Speaker 4: think on that import risk, you know that sounds a

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Speaker 4: bit you know, what does that mean? Grace? It means

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Speaker 4: literally the technology we're speaking on today. It means the

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Speaker 4: clothes on our back. For the first time, we're looking

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Speaker 4: at solar panels in the top five products of modern

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Speaker 4: slavery vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: Can you just explain that, why is the production or

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Speaker 2: the creation of solar panels contributing to a rise in

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Speaker 2: modern slavery?

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Speaker 4: So solar panels in the last five years have become

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Speaker 4: something that we've needed to procure very quickly, and people

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Speaker 4: frankly didn't really ask questions, and so ask questions about

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Speaker 4: how it was made, how it was made and the

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Speaker 4: raw material. So polysilica from the Shinjang region within China

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Speaker 4: is where polysilica is a raw material that is in

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Speaker 4: solar panels, and the vast majority of solar panels being

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Speaker 4: pumped into Australia and around the world are connected to

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Speaker 4: that region where there is zero transparency, accountability, and there

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Speaker 4: are numerous accounts of state imposed forced labor. Another product

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Speaker 4: of high vulnerability that has remained and actually compunded is

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Speaker 4: garments and textiles.

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Speaker 2: So the clothes on our back, can you go into

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Speaker 2: what I mean? We know fast fashion is bad, but like,

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Speaker 2: what are we actually talking about here when it comes

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Speaker 2: to modern slavery.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about human rights abuses really at every level

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Speaker 4: of that supply chain, from the picking of the cotton

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Speaker 4: to the manufacturing of the garment, even labels being son

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Speaker 4: on in countries like North Korea, industries like cotton industries,

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Speaker 4: like sugar industries, like tobacco, they've actually never not been exploitative.

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Speaker 4: They are connected to historical slavery and they've never really

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Speaker 4: become fair. So the fact that cotton has been an

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Speaker 4: issue that in some ways made people think of historical

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Speaker 4: slavery and the Jim Crow era in the United States.

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Speaker 4: The fact that then we were looking at that in

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Speaker 4: Newzbekistan as state and post force labor, and now Shinjang

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Speaker 4: in China, it's not a coincidence. So I think needing

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Speaker 4: that basic information, you know, I'm sure we're going to

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Speaker 4: talk about legislation is so critical because I think with

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Speaker 4: fast fashion, we've come to think that it's normal for

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Speaker 4: a T shirt to cost less than a sandwich. If

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Speaker 4: a cotton T shirt that costs five dollars on average

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Speaker 4: is touched by one hundred pairs of hands from the

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Speaker 4: growing of that cotton to the spinning of the thread

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Speaker 4: to the sowing of the garment, how on earth can

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Speaker 4: that equate to anything that isn't cementing structural inequality and

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Speaker 4: creating poverty like situations for women very much likely women

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Speaker 4: of color at the front of those supply chains. So

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Speaker 4: we very much say that if your feminism doesn't include

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Speaker 4: the women who make your clothes, it is not feminism.

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Speaker 2: And I want to labor this point too much because

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Speaker 2: I do want to get to the role of government,

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Speaker 2: because you know, you've foreshadowed how much legislation can do

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Speaker 2: in terms of helping with this situation. But on the

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Speaker 2: individual level, on the personal responsibility level. You know, we're

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Speaker 2: saying that there are solar panels that are being produced

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Speaker 2: in these situations, or electric cars. So what are we

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Speaker 2: as individuals meant to do when we are being told

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Speaker 2: that it is our personal responsibility to minimize, for example,

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Speaker 2: our carbon footprint and these are the ways to do it.

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Speaker 2: But then those things are creating other issues, compounding issues.

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Speaker 4: Yep, and they intersectional issues. So I think that very

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Speaker 4: much when we're talking about electric vehicles and solar panels,

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Speaker 4: this is something for government's responsibility. I think people are

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Speaker 4: from the cost of living crisis to us all living

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Speaker 4: through this compounding crisis. It's unrealistic that the consumer is

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Speaker 4: able to change these structural problems. However, I would say

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Speaker 4: that where we see consumers place a focus on this,

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Speaker 4: we have seen significant differences from a supply chain angle.

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Speaker 4: So I think that understanding who is making your clothes

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Speaker 4: and where they're coming from, understanding where your food is

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Speaker 4: coming from. You know, supermarkets in Australia have been some

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Speaker 4: of the spiciest areas of review for the Australian modern

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Speaker 4: slavery act where you can buy fair trade options do

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Speaker 4: and again they don't necessarily have to be more expensive.

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Speaker 4: The supermarket Algae actually has more fair trade options than

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Speaker 4: a number of its competitors, and they're not more expensive.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's just turn now to the role of government.

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of what you do is advocating

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Speaker 2: to government about why this is so important. I want

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Speaker 2: to know, firstly, what can governments be doing? And I

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Speaker 2: guess secondary to that, how is the Australian government going? Specifically,

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Speaker 2: am I allow to swear always.

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Speaker 4: Governments could be doing a shitload more governments are doing

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Speaker 4: the bare minimum. Frankly, right now, the Australian government, we

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Speaker 4: can feel proud of the fact that they have done something,

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Speaker 4: but there is a huge way to go before we're

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Speaker 4: making a significant impact into the lives of people at

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Speaker 4: the front of supply chains and also the lives of

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Speaker 4: people living in modern slavery in Australia. I think we

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Speaker 4: jumped right into supply chains and Australia does have a

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Speaker 4: seventeen point five billion dollar import risk. But equally, we

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Speaker 4: are estimating some forty one thousand people living in modern

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Speaker 4: slavery in Australia so there is a lot that our

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Speaker 4: government and governments around the world can do to create

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Speaker 4: safety and fairness within our own countries and for vulnerable

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Speaker 4: populations such as migrant workers, as well as in our

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Speaker 4: transnational supply chain. So the Australian government in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 4: enacted something called the Australian Modern Slavery Act. It is

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Speaker 4: a piece of legislation that mandates transparency, so for businesses

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Speaker 4: with a turnover of over one hundred million dollars, they

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Speaker 4: have to look and disclose on issues or vulnerability areas

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Speaker 4: of modern slavery in their supply chain. Good starting point,

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Speaker 4: but no teeth, no penalties, and there's certainly no remediation

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Speaker 4: for workers. And excitingly, we've been working alongside an expert

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Speaker 4: committee in New Zealand on a similar piece of legislation,

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Speaker 4: but very much transparently saying to them the UK and

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Speaker 4: Australian Modern Slavery Acts aren't actually working to protect people,

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Speaker 4: so please can we make it a bit stronger? And

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Speaker 4: I'm pleased to say it's a step further than Australia.

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Speaker 4: The legislation's currently being written, it's going to come into

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Speaker 4: effect hopefully in six months time. But they are looking

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Speaker 4: at due diligence measures, so the need for supply chains

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Speaker 4: to look proactively at risk rather than reactively respond. And

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Speaker 4: equally there are penalties for those businesses.

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Speaker 2: I think that listening to this, reading about this, it

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Speaker 2: can all feel really negative and it can feel heavy.

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Speaker 2: And as someone that works day in, day out in

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Speaker 2: this world, what gives you hope here? What is the

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Speaker 2: thing that brings you optimism among all the rest of it?

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Speaker 4: Look, I think it's really important for people to understand

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Speaker 4: the state of play of the world that we're living in. So, yes,

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Speaker 4: it is overwhelming, but it's also a fact. You know,

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Speaker 4: if it's hard to hear this, imagine living through it.

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Speaker 4: I think people think of historical slavery and exploitation.

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Speaker 2: I think, oh, gosh, of the past.

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Speaker 4: We would never let that happen in this day and age,

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Speaker 4: and yet it is happening. It's a real problem, and

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Speaker 4: it's because exploitation is by design and not default. And

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Speaker 4: I think that it's easy to fall into a trap

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Speaker 4: of thinking, oh, this is so depressing, this is so overwhelming,

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Speaker 4: when actually these are structural issues that we really can change.

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Speaker 4: You know, the fact that modern slavery is increasing is

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Speaker 4: because it's not on the gender for governments and businesses,

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Speaker 4: and we need people to care about this issue because

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Speaker 4: while I have been working in this space for a decade,

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Speaker 4: and while, to be honest, it was incredibly depressing to

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Speaker 4: see this number go up in the last five years,

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Speaker 4: we also have an opportunity to see it go down.

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Speaker 4: So if we don't want to keep seeing this number

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Speaker 4: go up, we have to engage and there are solutions

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Speaker 4: to these problems. The news is hoodwinking you into thinking

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Speaker 4: there isn't that they're just something that we should accept.

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Speaker 4: They're not, and I think our current government is taking

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Speaker 4: that quite seriously, but we really love the Australian public

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Speaker 4: to take it very seriously as well.

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Speaker 2: Grace, thank you so much for your time today, Thank

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Speaker 2: you for having.

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Speaker 3: Me, Thanks so much for joining us on the Daily

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Speaker 3: Ods today. I really learned a lot from that one.

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Speaker 3: That was a fascinating chat. If you have a subject

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Speaker 3: area that you want us to dive into and talk

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Speaker 3: to some experts and try and explain what's going on,

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Speaker 3: we'd love to hear it from you. Leave a comment

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Speaker 3: in the Spotify question box and we'll do some digging.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back again tomorrow until then have a great day.