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Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the daily. Oh,

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Speaker 1: this is the Daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty sixth of March. I'm Sam, I'm Billy, and

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Speaker 2: Sharma is a nineteen year old university student. She's also

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Speaker 2: an activist trying to change the laws of Australia. Sharma

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Speaker 2: wants to make it a legal obligation for the Australian

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Speaker 2: government to consider its duty of care to future generations

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Speaker 2: when making decisions about the environment. Sharma is working with

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Speaker 2: Independent Senator David Pocock to get their Duty of Care

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Speaker 2: Bill through government. Now this week the Senate is considering

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Speaker 2: the merits of the bill, and in today's Deep Dive,

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Speaker 2: TDA talks to Sharma about the legislation. Before we get

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Speaker 2: to that interview, Billy, what is making headlines this morning?

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Speaker 1: The federal government has announced new university study hubs in

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Speaker 1: regional Australia, aimed at bringing university closer to regional students.

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Speaker 1: Ten new hubs have been announced in regions including Warwick

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Speaker 1: in Queensland, the Pilborough in WA, and East Gippsland in Victoria.

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Speaker 1: The announcement comes after the university's Accord Panel released its

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Speaker 1: report last month calling on the government to improve higher

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Speaker 1: education in regional areas.

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Speaker 2: Independent MP Bobcatter has introduced a new bill to Parliament

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Speaker 2: yesterday aimed at addressing the market concentration of coals and Woolworth's.

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Speaker 2: The bill proposes a Commissioner for food retailing who would

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Speaker 2: have the power to control price gouging and would penalize

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Speaker 2: businesses for taking up too much of the market. There

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Speaker 2: are currently several ongoing inquiries into the supermarkets in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Police in Russia have charged four people with terrorism over

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Speaker 1: an attack at a Moscow concert hall on Friday. Islamic

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Speaker 1: State has claimed for responsibility for the attack. More than

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Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty people were killed and at least

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Speaker 1: one hundred and forty others were injured. It is the

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Speaker 1: deadliest attack inside Russia in twenty years.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news, Jasmine Paris has become the first

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Speaker 2: woman to complete what's known as one of the hardest

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Speaker 2: marathons ever. The Berkley Marathon is a sixty hour race

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Speaker 2: that involves five laps through mountainous woodlands, leaving the runner

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Speaker 2: to navigate the track without a phone or GPS. They

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Speaker 2: just have a digital watch and compass. Only twenty people

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Speaker 2: have completed the marathon, and forty year old Paris becomes

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Speaker 2: the first woman to do so, finishing the run with

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Speaker 2: less than two minutes to spare. Okay, so, Billy, we're

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Speaker 2: about to dive into an interview that you did with

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Speaker 2: and Sharma. Give us some background to who we're talking

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Speaker 2: to today.

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Speaker 1: So I first came across Sharma when she actually sued

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Speaker 1: the government while she was in high school.

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Speaker 2: I remember this case, big case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had an on the podcast before to talk

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Speaker 1: about that, and at the time, she reached out to

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Speaker 1: TDA to tell us what she was doing. So that

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Speaker 1: was then, and we talk about exactly why she sued

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Speaker 1: the government, and I'll let her explain that. But why

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Speaker 1: we interviewed her today is because she's now working with

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Speaker 1: Independent Senator David Pocock. And so at this center of

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Speaker 1: this bill that they have worked on is this idea

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Speaker 1: about whether governments should have a legal obligation to consider

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Speaker 1: young people and future generations when they are making decisions

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Speaker 1: about the environment. So quite a big idea. And so

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Speaker 1: this is a private Member's Bill, which means it's not

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Speaker 1: a bill being introduced by the government, which inevitably means

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Speaker 1: that it will be a lot harder to get it

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Speaker 1: through Parliament, or.

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Speaker 2: They now need the support of the government.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, they will need the support of the government to

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Speaker 1: get this through and in full transparency, they have basically

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Speaker 1: said that they don't support it, but that doesn't stop

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Speaker 1: the Senate from seriously considering it and talking about it.

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Speaker 1: And I'll leave everything else for and to explain to

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Speaker 1: you guys. Here is that chat and Sharma, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining the Daily Oz.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Billy, it's so excited to

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Speaker 3: be here.

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Speaker 1: So you have worked with Independent Senator David Pocock on

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Speaker 1: something called the Duty of Care Bill, which is currently

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Speaker 1: being considered by the Senate. Can you start by just

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Speaker 1: explaining what exactly is that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, the Duty of Care Bill would be an

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Speaker 3: amendment to the alor existing Climate Change Act, and basically,

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Speaker 3: within that Act, it would insert a duty where governments,

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Speaker 3: when they're considering decisions to approve fossil fuel projects have

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Speaker 3: to consider the impact of making these decisions on the

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Speaker 3: health and well being of young people. So basically if

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Speaker 3: they are asked to make one of these decisions, they

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Speaker 3: are then required to take into account all available evidence

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Speaker 3: to determine whether the approval of such a project will

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Speaker 3: post a tangible risk to the health and wellbeing of

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Speaker 3: young people, and if it will, they will not be

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Speaker 3: allowed to let that fossil fuel project go ahead. So

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Speaker 3: it basically means that any decision made in the context

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Speaker 3: of climate change has to be weighed up against the

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Speaker 3: needs and interests of young people.

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Speaker 1: So, to give it a real life example, if the

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Speaker 1: government was considering whether or not to approve a coal mine,

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Speaker 1: you want it to be a legal obligation that they

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Speaker 1: have to consider the effects that this coal mine will

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Speaker 1: have on future generations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And with that would come the need to

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Speaker 3: consider the size of the project, the length and duration

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Speaker 3: of the project, whereabouts it would be built, and all

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Speaker 3: factors like that. But it would essentially formalize in legislation

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Speaker 3: the acknowledgment that it is young people who will be

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Speaker 3: very intrinsically impacted by climate change and that all decisions

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Speaker 3: like that coal mine have to be weighed up against

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Speaker 3: our rights, our needs, and our interests.

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Speaker 1: And at the time that we are recording this. You

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Speaker 1: have literally just heard of a new update on the

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Speaker 1: status of this bill.

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Speaker 2: What was that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Senate Committee who has been inquiring into

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Speaker 3: this bill was about to hand down their report on Wednesday,

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Speaker 3: the twenty seventh of March. So essentially we've been going

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Speaker 3: through a public submissions process where everybody's been able to

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Speaker 3: make submissions to the government about this bill, which was

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Speaker 3: then followed up by hearings where experts were called to

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Speaker 3: give evidence the Senate. The Senate, after all that evidence

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Speaker 3: has been given, was about to write a report with

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Speaker 3: their recommendations of this bill, and that was meant to

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Speaker 3: be handed down on Wednesday, the twenty seventh of March.

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Speaker 3: We've literally just received word that that will now be

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Speaker 3: pushed out until the second of June. That's quite a

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Speaker 3: substantial pushback, but we hope that it indicates that the

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Speaker 3: government is actually considering some of the key issues and

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Speaker 3: sticking points within the bill and really considering how they

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Speaker 3: can implement this legislation in a way that's mutually agreeable

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Speaker 3: between us send a pocock as well as them, the

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Speaker 3: way that really benefits all parties.

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Speaker 1: Is there any precedent for this kind of thing around

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So what we're asking the government to do

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Speaker 3: with not an international anomally in any sense of the manner.

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Speaker 3: There are countries one hundred and sixty one in fact,

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Speaker 3: that have recognized that young people have the right to

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Speaker 3: a healthy environment. That's not exactly the same as a

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Speaker 3: duty of care, but the concepts are very much interlinked.

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Speaker 3: And when you consider the fact that Australia isn't one

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Speaker 3: of those countries as enshrined the right to a healthy

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Speaker 3: environment in any sort of domestic legislation, it really shows

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Speaker 3: you how out of step we are with the international arena.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, there are countries that have gone much

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Speaker 3: further than that. There's Wales which has both a Future

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Speaker 3: Generations Act and a Future Generation's Commissioner. So the purpose

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Speaker 3: of the Commissioner is to scrutinize all legislation that is

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Speaker 3: drafted and passed in Wales against the needs and interests

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Speaker 3: of Wales as young people. So the Commissioner looks at

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Speaker 3: how any legislation that is proposed could affect young people

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Speaker 3: and is empowered to disallow any legislation that isn't compatible

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Speaker 3: with our needs.

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Speaker 1: Now, to get this through you would need the support

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Speaker 1: of the government, and a few weeks ago I actually

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Speaker 1: interviewed the Climate Change Minister, Chris Bowen, and I asked

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Speaker 1: him about this bill, and he basically said that he's

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Speaker 1: just focused on getting on with the job in terms

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Speaker 1: of planning for the transition to renewables, and he said

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't believe that we need this enshrined in legislation.

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Speaker 4: We have our approach which is different. I've got a

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Speaker 4: lot of respect for David and I work closely with

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Speaker 4: him on many many things. We have a different approach,

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Speaker 4: which is to get on with the job. We are

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Speaker 4: getting on with the job of creating the energy of

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Speaker 4: the future, which is going to be renewable, which will

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Speaker 4: mean less coal, will mean less gas. We're just getting

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Speaker 4: on with it. I think that we have to remain

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Speaker 4: focused on the task we have it and David can

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Speaker 4: promote that agenda. I respect him. We've got our own

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Speaker 4: agenda we're promoting.

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Speaker 1: What's your response to that.

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Speaker 3: Look, if he's considering getting on with the job, then

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Speaker 3: the Study of Care Bill absolutely falls into the roadmap

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Speaker 3: of doing that. What we're offering to the government is

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Speaker 3: a good faith proposal for them to put to place

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Speaker 3: their legislation better for them to reach the targets that

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Speaker 3: they have set for themselves that they might not completely

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Speaker 3: be on track to reach. Yes, the government has so

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Speaker 3: far put in place a suite of measures so that

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Speaker 3: speak to climate change. They've got the climate change actually

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Speaker 3: they've got their emissions reductions target, their renewable energy target,

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Speaker 3: but up till now they don't have a single piece

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Speaker 3: of legislation that speaks to the needs of young people

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Speaker 3: who are the sector of the population that will be

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Speaker 3: most affected by climate change and will have to live

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Speaker 3: out our lives in a world that could severely be

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Speaker 3: affected by climate change. We also know that the government,

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Speaker 3: as I said, isn't necessarily on track to put into

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Speaker 3: place these policies perfectly or meet their targets, and we

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Speaker 3: hope that this bill would be away for the government

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Speaker 3: to acknowledge that young people do stand to be disproportionately

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Speaker 3: affected by climate change, but also a tool in the

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Speaker 3: government's belt for them to reach those targets faster away

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Speaker 3: for them to most effectively implement their legislation. We don't

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Speaker 3: see why this wouldn't fit into the roadmap of getting

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Speaker 3: on with the job. As the Minister put it.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to be pessimistic about it or anything,

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Speaker 1: but the government has said that they won't support it.

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Speaker 1: Basically the opposition has also said that they won't support it.

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Speaker 1: So just if this doesn't get through, what's next?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, we know that private members bills very rarely pass,

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Speaker 3: but a significant proportion of Parliament does support enshrining the

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Speaker 3: needs and rights of young people in the legislation. So

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Speaker 3: while the upper echelons of the government right now aren't

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Speaker 3: committed to coming to the table and engaging in good

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Speaker 3: faith on this proposal, we do have the backing of

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Speaker 3: several MPs and we hope that that will continue down

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Speaker 3: that road. If this legislation in its current form doesn't pass,

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Speaker 3: then we would hope to work with the government to

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Speaker 3: perhaps redraft it in a way that could fit within

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Speaker 3: their own policy platform. It's not a my way or

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Speaker 3: the highway situation at all. This legislation has come from

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Speaker 3: the belief that young people should be acknowledged in policy

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Speaker 3: in the fact that we will be most affected by

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Speaker 3: climate change, and if that needs to be done in

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Speaker 3: a different manner later on down the line, then we're

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Speaker 3: absolutely willing to work with the government on that as

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Speaker 3: long as our end goal is to achieve legislation along

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Speaker 3: this line.

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Speaker 1: Now, this is not the first time that you have

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Speaker 1: actually tried to fight the government on climate change. So

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Speaker 1: the moment you're trying to do it by passing legislation,

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Speaker 1: but you've previously done it by actually suing the government

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Speaker 1: and trying to make this change through a case, a

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Speaker 1: legal case in the courts. For those who don't know,

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Speaker 1: can you just tell us what happened last time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it started in twenty twenty and myself and

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Speaker 3: seven school age students took the former Federal environmentister Susan

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Speaker 3: Lee to court and we argued that she owed and

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Speaker 3: was breaching a duty of care to young people to

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Speaker 3: protect us from the impacts of climate change. Now, initially,

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Speaker 3: on that argument we were successful and the Federal Court

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Speaker 3: ruled in our favor. They found that the government did

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Speaker 3: have a duty of care to young people. And this

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Speaker 3: was incredible. It was such a win. It was a

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Speaker 3: change to the Australian law in a way that pada

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Speaker 3: mc donne for a long long time. Unfortunately, the government

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Speaker 3: then took us back to court and appealed to this

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Speaker 3: decision the Federal Court on that instance found in favor

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Speaker 3: of the government. But when they did so, it was

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Speaker 3: a really really interesting decision in that they didn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: say that the duty of care doesn't exist. They said

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Speaker 3: that if it does exist, it should be legislated by

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Speaker 3: Parliament and not imposed on them by the courts. So

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Speaker 3: that's essentially led us to where we are now because

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Speaker 3: we interpreted that pretty much as a mandate to demand

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Speaker 3: that sure, if the Federal Court has washed their hands

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Speaker 3: of this responsibility and kind of handboard it over to Parliament,

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Speaker 3: then it's on Parliament to pick it up from here

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Speaker 3: and you know, run with it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's crazy just taking a moment to think

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Speaker 1: that you literally sue the government when you were in

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Speaker 1: high school and now you're in UNI and you're trying

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Speaker 1: to pass legislation. You've done so much. Like we said,

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Speaker 1: you're nineteen, you're still at UNI. What has it been

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Speaker 1: like lobbying the government when you're so young.

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Speaker 3: You really get a sense of how much these institutions

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Speaker 3: aren't designed for young people. It's quite inaccessible, and the

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Speaker 3: people who who are meant to be there are the

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Speaker 3: lobbyists who have been trained to have worked in this

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Speaker 3: area for a long time who are being paid the

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Speaker 3: big bucks for doing this job. Whereas there's us my

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Speaker 3: campaign team who kind of pop into Parliament when we

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Speaker 3: can around our UNI classes and our other commitments, and

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Speaker 3: we're competing against people who have much greater and deeper

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Speaker 3: knowledge of legislation and parliamentary processes than we do. So

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Speaker 3: it's quite scary. Sometimes it's quite inaccessible. It really, really

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Speaker 3: really is an uphill battle. But we have the support

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Speaker 3: of so so many people. We have the support of ngngos,

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Speaker 3: of so much of the health sector, of businesses, of

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Speaker 3: the four hundred people who made submissions to the Duty

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Speaker 3: of Care Senate inquiry, and so the one thing we

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Speaker 3: never feel is alone because we know that this bill

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Speaker 3: is supported by so so much of wider society. Our

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Speaker 3: petition shows that, our inquiry process and how many people

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Speaker 3: participated shows that, and that really makes it a lot easier.

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Speaker 1: There might be some people wondering, how did you get

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Speaker 1: into this?

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Speaker 3: So I've kind of always been around the impacts of

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Speaker 3: climate change. I have seen climate change hit my home

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Speaker 3: country and my family of India quite severely, especially in

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Speaker 3: recent years where there have been horrific heat waves and floods,

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Speaker 3: but living on the other side of the world, I

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Speaker 3: haven't really had to go through that to the same extent,

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Speaker 3: and that's concocted in me a weird mix of anger

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Speaker 3: and injustice that kind of first led me to join

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Speaker 3: school Strike for Climate and I organized those massive strikes

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Speaker 3: back in twenty nineteen that saw hundreds and thousands of

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Speaker 3: people take to the streets around Australia, and through that

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Speaker 3: I met people who would go on to become part

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Speaker 3: of the legal team that would work with us to

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Speaker 3: take the form of Federal Environment to court. And since then,

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Speaker 3: I guess every opportunity has kind of come as a

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Speaker 3: flaw and effect to that. But it all started with

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Speaker 3: the fifteen year old girl who kind of had that

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Speaker 3: sense of climate anxiety and anger and injustice and didn't

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Speaker 3: know what to do. So along to an organizing meeting

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Speaker 3: for school's Strike for Climate and is now here at

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Speaker 3: the end of a very long five year road lobbying

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Speaker 3: in Parliament.

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Speaker 1: I want to end on this note. You spend so

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Speaker 1: much time thinking about climate change and trying to get

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Speaker 1: the government to do more. What would you say to

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Speaker 1: anyone listening who suffers from climate anxiety?

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Speaker 3: It's a really common thing nowadays, when we have the

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Speaker 3: entirety of the world's news at our finger tips, and

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Speaker 3: we know that there are records being broken that should

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Speaker 3: never be taught, that climate disaster is occurring at a

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Speaker 3: really scary and unprecedented rate around the world. But the

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Speaker 3: biggest antidote to climate anxiety is action and to feel

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Speaker 3: like you yourself are making a difference in the world.

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Speaker 3: But to do that, you don't have to have like

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Speaker 3: any specific skills. You just have to be passionate about something.

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Speaker 3: Because I always tell everyone to find their niche. If

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Speaker 3: you're passionate about art, or music or sport, then I

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Speaker 3: promise you that there are organizations in that sector that

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Speaker 3: are using their passion and what they do as a

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Speaker 3: way to bring awareness to the climate crisis. So if

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Speaker 3: you find your niche, if you find your passion, you

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Speaker 3: already have a gateway into the world of climate action,

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Speaker 3: and that's the best way to deal with climate anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Well, we will continue to follow this story, and thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining The Daily Oz.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Billy.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty amazing what a teenager can achieve, and I

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Speaker 2: have a feeling that ang Shama will be part of

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Speaker 2: the Australian political landscape for many, many decades to come. Billy,

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Speaker 2: thanks for that chat and thank you for listening to

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Speaker 2: this episode of The Daily Os. If you enjoyed that

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Speaker 2: chat with and we'd love to hear from you, you

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Speaker 2: can leave a review if you're on Spotify, or a

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Speaker 2: rating if you're on Apple. Get in touch with us

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Speaker 2: over on our Instagram. You can turn to on newsletter.

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Speaker 2: There's lots of ways to get involved with The Daily Os.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back again in your ears tomorrow morning. My

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Speaker 2: name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda bungelung

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Speaker 2: Cawguttin woman from Gadigol Country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all.

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

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Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 1: both past and present.