1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Do you remember when working from home was a rarity. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Maybe you knew a couple of contractors who had a 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: home office, or you'd heard of a few companies with 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: pretty flexible working arrangements. 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: Then all of a sudden, it seemed like almost. 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: Everyone started working from home thanks to the pandemic, and 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: things changed for good when we all realized we could 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: get by with things like Zoom and Google Docs. But 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: what if we were wrong. Adam Nathan is the co 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Almanac, which has structured collaboration software 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: for remote teams, and he's worried that where we work 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: has changed, but how we work hasn't. So what needs 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: to change? Well, it all starts with Almanac's principles of 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: modern work. My name is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: And this is how I work a show about how 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. So if you 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: visit almanex website. As well as learning all about the software, 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: there is a whole section dedicated to Adam and his 20 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: team's thinking about how teams and especially teams that don't 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: work in the same location. Five days a week, can 22 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: think differently and a whole lot better about work. And 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: I was keen to know why did Adam even create 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: these principles in the first place. 25 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 3: We started the company off the pretty simple thesis that 26 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 3: where we work has changed, but how we work hasn't. 27 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 3: And I think anyone who's lived through the past three 28 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 3: or four years knows what I mean. But just to 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: put some data on it, before the pandemic, about twenty 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 3: two percent of of these white color professionals in the 31 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: United States worked remotely or in some kind of distributed 32 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 3: context to the numbers closer to seventy percent, so you're 33 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: seeing something like a four or five x increase in 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 3: remote work. And the number has actually grown since the 35 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: end of the pandemic. And you know, I don't love 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: the I don't love the phrase remote work. I'd rather 37 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 3: call it internet work, because what I think is really 38 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 3: happening here is this broader shift from working in the 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 3: office to working on the Internet. And this has happened 40 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: in phases over time. Even before the pandemic, A lot 41 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 3: of people, even if they went into an office, were 42 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 3: working in Google Docs, communicating on Slack, meeting on Zoom. 43 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: A lot of large companies were distributed. Before was cool 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: because they had offices across different cities and even countries, 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: but remote work. The pandemic was really a one way 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: door into remote work for a lot of people, and 47 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: it was obviously a surprise, and overnight people couldn't go 48 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: into their offices anymore. And it turns out that, you know, 49 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 3: we could kind of get by at work with the 50 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: basics of creating and collaborating with the tools that we had. 51 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: But what happened also during the pandemic was that indicators 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 3: around things like burnout and job satisfaction and management efficiency 53 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: started blinking red because we were still all working online 54 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: as if we were in an office from nine to 55 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 3: five in the same place. So meetings and messages started 56 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 3: to become overused as tools of getting stuff done. When 57 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 3: people can't be around their colleagues anymore, things like trust 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: and connections started to decrease precipitously, and so people started 59 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: to burn out at work and become very dissatisfied and 60 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 3: doubt even when before the pandemic that wasn't happening. And 61 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: we think the root cause at Almanac is that we've 62 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: now changed where we work, but we haven't actually evolved 63 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: yet how we work, and so this mismatch between kind 64 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: of the context in which we now all work and 65 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: live and the way that we're doing our jobs is 66 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: causing a lot of pain and frustration, to the extent 67 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 3: that some people quit their jobs or take themselves out 68 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: of their workforce, which is obviously not good for them, 69 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: also not good for our economy. It's not good for businesses. 70 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 3: There's actually been a slowdown in innovation over the last 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,839 Speaker 3: twenty years, where a lot of the growth we're seeing 72 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: today is actually a byproduct of fundamental innovation that was 73 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: created before nineteen seventy. And so I think in order 74 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 3: to keep keep our planet spinning and making sure that 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: we're solving our greatest challenges and reaping our biggest opportunities, 76 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 3: that requires great collaboration and requires teams to work well, 77 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: and that means we need to figure out how to 78 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: work together in this new normal. And so when we 79 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 3: started the company, we weren't just trying to build a 80 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: better tool. In fact, there's I think nothing wrong with 81 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: document editors like Microsoft Word or Google Docs. It's more 82 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 3: that people are trying to use a tool that was 83 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 3: designed for a different world. 84 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 4: For something entirely different, and what. 85 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: We think people really need is a different way of working, 86 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: not just a different tool. And so when we started 87 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: the company, we didn't just sit down and start coding 88 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 3: away based on philosophy found and other products. We we 89 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 3: went first to talk to the best teams on the Internet, 90 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: people at companies like Amazon and Apple and Netflix and 91 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 3: get Lab and do is to understand, like how they 92 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 3: were working so well In many of these cases, they 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 3: figured out how to optimize their processes, their management styles, 94 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: their norms for the Internet way before the rest of 95 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 3: us did. And so we've done over five thousand interviews 96 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: at this point with people from these super high performing 97 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 3: teams to understand, like, how did you figure out how 98 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 3: to work? What was the initial insight, how's that evolved 99 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 3: into a best practice, And what we did from there 100 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 3: was kind of abstract away from specific instances to broad 101 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: generalizable principles that anybody can use, regardless of their company 102 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: or context to work faster on the Internet. 103 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 104 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: Love the I love the depth that and the research 105 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: that went into creating these modern work principles. I've read 106 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: through them all and you know what else, Preparing for 107 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: this interview. I thought, I'll just I'll pick out my favorites, 108 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: but really down most of them because most of them 109 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: are my favorites. So I want to go through a 110 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: few of them because what I'm really interested in is 111 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: what does that look like in practice. So let's take 112 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: principle two, which says the best managers focus on outputs 113 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: and outcomes instead of hours worked or messages sent. So 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: I don't think you get much argument from you know, 115 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: forward thinking leaders about that. I feel like a lot 116 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: of leaders and managers say, you know, it has to 117 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: be about outcomes and not hours, but they don't necessarily 118 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: behave in that way when they're, say, evaluating their staff. 119 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: So I want to know, how do you do this 120 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: practically speaking. 121 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. And just for some context here, 122 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: if you think about historical management theory, modern management really 123 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 3: came about with the advent of the modern factory in 124 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties and forties, and the job of a 125 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 3: manager there was to measure outputs, and the outputs in 126 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: this case it was like stuff coming off the factory line, 127 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: and so managers could set above the factory floor and 128 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: you know, look at like reports essentially of outputs and 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: see how the factory was performing. And in that case, 130 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: workers were kind of like cognitive machine, you know, they 131 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: were sorting stuff and doing specific, single oriented jobs, and 132 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 3: so management was I'm sure it wasn't simple then, but 133 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 3: it was pretty straightforward. As work a lot of work 134 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: moved from blue collar work to white collar work, from 135 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 3: kind of factory work to creative work. You couldn't see 136 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: the output of individual employees anymore. In many cases they 137 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: were complex or creative, and so the job of a 138 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: manager short to evolve to managing presence, which is to say, 139 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 3: did the employee show up at a specific time, were 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: they in the office to another time, did they attend meetings? 141 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: Even things like how good of a communicator are they? 142 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: How good are they appearing to collaborate, And a lot 143 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 3: of that I think has been kind of parodied and 144 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 3: reviled in modern media around kind of how a name 145 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: that is because even in the office, just because you 146 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: showed up wasn't necessarily correlated to whether you were doing. 147 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 4: A good job. 148 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 3: But it gave managers the same kind of control I 149 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: think as standing above a factory floor used to and 150 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: now in modern world where we're not in the same place. 151 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: At the same time, we've removed the ability for managers 152 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: to manage my presence, which I think is a good 153 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: thing because it allows us to fill it in with 154 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 3: something better. But to your question, how do we give 155 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: managers tools to actually manage outcomes rather than just presence? 156 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 3: And I think the key to the inser comes down 157 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 3: to transparency. And so if you think kind of about 158 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: a spectrum, in order to get to outcomes, you first 159 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 3: have to measure outputs, because somebody can't be doing a 160 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 3: good job if they're doing no job at all. And 161 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: so I think the core form of this is to 162 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: actually just look at tasks. So of the things I've 163 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: asked you to do, did you actually do them? If 164 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: you haven't done them, there's no way that you did 165 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 3: any job at all. You could do a good or 166 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: bad job, you've done nothing. And so creating transparency around 167 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: kind of the basic collaborative tasks that people do every day, 168 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: I think is the foundation to starting to measure outputs 169 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: and outcomes instead of things like presence. And so in 170 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: our tool in Almanac, we have a concept call request, 171 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 3: where you can ask someone for feedback or approval or 172 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 3: to complete something, or even just to read a document. 173 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 3: And this is really similar about how software engineers have 174 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: been working largely asynchronously for twenty years, where even when 175 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 3: they're on the same place as software engineer, through tools 176 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 3: that GitHub can ask another engineer to review their code 177 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: or approve something. And in gethub there's basically like a 178 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: lot like an activity feed from Facebook where you can 179 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: actually see did the person first like see my request, 180 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: kind of like a red receipt in I message, You know, 181 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: have they looked at it? What comments have they made 182 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: that they're attached to the request, what metafeedback have they given? 183 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 3: And so there's a lot of clarity around like where 184 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 3: the request is in process. And if you think about 185 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 3: like even basic task management tools from the office culture era, 186 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: you may ask somebody in an office to do something, 187 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: but even then you really have any clarity like where 188 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: is this work with Susan you know, digjo complete the task? 189 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 3: And so I think for managers to start to manage 190 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 3: by outcomes, you have to just understand is your team 191 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 3: doing the things you ask them to do, and that 192 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 3: starts to get you a sense of kind of quantity 193 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 3: of output, and then you can start to layer on 194 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 3: quality and I think ways to measure that are to 195 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 3: look at again through transparency of analytics. What was how 196 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 3: many comments did people put on their work? How many 197 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 3: comments did they put in other people's work? How do 198 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 3: you did people react to those comments? Where their threads? 199 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 3: Where they're things like reactions. If you think about kind 200 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 3: of the consumer world as a parallel for enterprise, if 201 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: you go on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, you can 202 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 3: generally tell the quality of a post by the amount 203 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 3: of reactions. It's getting the number of likes, amount of comments, 204 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: that engagement in other words, and I think starting to 205 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: apply a lot of the same principles to enterprise collaboration 206 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 3: on comments and tasks and reviews and then aggregating those 207 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 3: analytically so that a manager can see how did Adam actually. 208 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: Do this week? 209 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 3: Did he complete his tasks? Did people think they were good? 210 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 3: Was he responsive to what other people on the team need? 211 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 3: You can start to get a picture of kind of 212 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 3: quality and quality of output. 213 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 4: By individual, and. 214 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 3: That starts to get managers the tools they need to 215 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 3: understand is the team doing their jobs? 216 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 4: Is the team moving the needle? 217 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 3: And that I think in the end builds trust and 218 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 3: a sense of connection between managers and their teams, because 219 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 3: even if they're not in the same room, the managers 220 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: a sense of is the ball moving forward, who's contributing 221 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 3: to the work, who's falling behind? And I think that 222 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: lack of that lack of trust that exist today for 223 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: a lot of teams comes from a lack of transparency. 224 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: It's interesting, like the distinction between outputs and outcomes. And 225 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: I know at Almanac you use okay as so objectives 226 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: and kre results. 227 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: That's correct, isn't it, Adam, we built. 228 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: Our own system because I think cars can be kind 229 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 3: of like a dark art or for a lot of 230 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 3: teams where they're actually quite I think they take a 231 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 3: lot of work to implement, and many teams don't do 232 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: them very well. So we've actually designed our own system Almanac, 233 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 3: that's largely based on setting a strategy every quarter, translating 234 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 3: that down into goals per month than to goals per week, 235 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: so that everybody understands how we plan to get to 236 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 3: the long term place we want to go, and then 237 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 3: having individuals in their work streams list their own goals 238 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 3: for the week in a public document and at the 239 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: end of the week grade themselves and if they. 240 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 4: Got that work done. 241 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 3: And so on this output point I was talking about before, 242 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: understanding like did you do the thing you said you 243 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: were going to do. We built a system at Almanac 244 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: largely based around these weekly tasks just to understand like 245 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 3: are people doing their jobs? And you know there are cases, 246 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 3: of course where people are doing their work but it's 247 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 3: not very good. But there's a very strong correlation between 248 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 3: people who aren't completing their task and people who aren't 249 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: producing outcomes in other words, moving the needle on an 250 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 3: important project. 251 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: The outcomes almost like the quality and outputs sort of 252 00:12:59,040 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: the quantity. 253 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: Is that simplifying it too much? 254 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 3: It's basically it's about impact on the spectrum. And so 255 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 3: outputs I think of as a. 256 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 4: As something that happens as a direct result of your activity. 257 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 4: And so if. 258 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: Let's say we're playing a sport and we're playing baseball, 259 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 3: and output is you know, the number of times that 260 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 3: I am batting and I swing and I connect with 261 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: the ball. You know, it's a verifiable activity where my 262 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 3: action led to a direct result. 263 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 4: Everybody can see it. It's pretty easy to measure. 264 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: Whether or not I'm hitting the ball, how is how 265 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: how much is that correlated with my team winning the game. 266 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 3: Who knows, Probably not that much I think about an 267 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: outcome though, as my team winning the game. You know, 268 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 3: it's it's something that happens that I'm contributing to, but 269 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: it's not a direct result of my activity. And so 270 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: out outcomes for businesses are things like we want to 271 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: grow this quarter, or we want to improve profitability, or 272 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 3: we want to produce new products. An output might be 273 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 3: if I'm an engineer, you know how many lines of 274 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 3: code I've written, if I've completed a feature. If I'm 275 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: a marketer, you know how many ads I've released or 276 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: how many lines, how many. 277 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 4: New tweets I've sent. 278 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: If I'm a you know, salesperson, it's the number of 279 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 3: calls I've made or number of demos I've booked, just 280 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 3: because I've you know, done it. A bunch of demos 281 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that the company will grow, but they 282 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: are correlated, and so there's this relationship between the work 283 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: that I'm doing, how much of it I do, the 284 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: quality that I do it at, and the long term 285 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: goal of the company that many people are contributing to 286 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: that is also affected by outside factors, and so outcomes 287 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: are often what companies say their goals are and the 288 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: trick is how you tie that to the actual work 289 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: people are doing every single day. 290 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: And so is what you're saying that the goals that 291 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: individuals are setting, they're the outputs. And then the ladder 292 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: up to company outcomes. Yes, okay interesting, and so in 293 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: the language of okay as the output, So it's the 294 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: key results, like the quantifiable, measurable things that the people 295 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: are ultimately assessed on. 296 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 297 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 3: So in okay, our's okay stands for objectives and key results. 298 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 3: An objective is kind of a qualitative, big idea, something like, 299 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: you know, this quarter, we'd like to grow the business, 300 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 3: and a key result is attached to that objective. That's 301 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: a quantifiable metric that will help the team understand if 302 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: they achieve that objective. So if our goal is to grow, 303 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: if our objective is to grow the business, a key 304 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: result might be, you know, revenue increases fifty percent within 305 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: three months, and so you're measuring the key results to 306 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 3: understand if you've reached the objective. 307 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: And then those often ladder down. 308 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 3: If that's, for example, a company goal, those could ladder 309 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: down to team goals. So the product team is thinking 310 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: about how do we build new features. The sales team 311 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 3: is thinking about how to we sell those features. Marketing 312 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 3: team is thinking about how to we increase top of 313 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: funnel awareness, and that can lead it on even further 314 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: to individuals objectives and key results. So the system is 315 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: meant to scale from what a company sets all the 316 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: way down to what individual are doing every day, so 317 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: that there's broad alignment and clarity through the organization. 318 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: One of my other favorite principles, As I said, they're 319 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: all kind of favorites, but I really like this one 320 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: principle seeks collaboration should always start with a document instead 321 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: of a mating and I feel that that is completely 322 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: conjurary to how most organizations run things. So can you 323 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: tell me, if it starts with a document, what does 324 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: that document look like. 325 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 3: That's a great question, and I agree with you that 326 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 3: it sounds simple write everything down, but it's very unintuitive 327 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: to a lot of people and not often followed in 328 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: practice in terms of what to write down. I think 329 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: the best practice here is to use templates. And so 330 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 3: if you think about every document, not as a lot 331 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 3: of people do, as kind of a place to store, 332 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: like a final version of a contract or an agreement 333 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: something that happens at the end of a largely informal 334 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: process that's being conducted in meetings, but really as the 335 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: process itself, as the place where you write down the 336 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 3: initial idea, where you get feedback on it, where you 337 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 3: get formal approval, where you then distribute it as knowledge 338 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 3: to the rest of the team, even something that then 339 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: gets updated over time into future versions. The document isn't 340 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 3: just kind of like a piece of paper that goes 341 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 3: in a filing cabinet, as we used to regard them, 342 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 3: but really as the core collaborative surface for the team. 343 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 3: And so the best way to kind of codify a 344 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 3: process so that people follow it is to use a template. 345 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: And so I think the best practice here is to 346 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: have document templates for different types of processes. So, for example, 347 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 3: a PRD is a great template es for creating and 348 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,959 Speaker 3: aligning as a team on product requirements for a new feature. 349 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 3: Using a sales template is essentially a form of starting 350 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: a process where you go through negotiation with a potential customer, 351 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 3: agree on terms, get them to sign it, and then 352 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 3: distribute it. 353 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: And so. 354 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: The simple but hard answer is that creating good templates 355 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 3: for the key processes that your company is doing is 356 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 3: the best way to make sure that those processes begin 357 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: with a document rather than a meeting, And by starting 358 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 3: with basically like a plug and play document, you can 359 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 3: actually not just reduce the number of meetings, but reduce 360 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 3: the amount of hours you're spending on the work, because 361 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 3: most of what companies are doing every day aren't like 362 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 3: totally new creative processes. Even if the point of a 363 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 3: process is to come up with a creative idea, the 364 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 3: process itself is often codified and structured in some ways, 365 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 3: and what a lot of companies are spending time doing 366 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: is reinventing the wheel on the process itself, and templates 367 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 3: are a great way to prevent that from happening. 368 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: We will be back with Adam soon where we talk 369 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: about what actually deserves a meeting at Almanac and what 370 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: is best done asynchronously. If you're looking for more tips 371 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: to improve the way that you work, I write a 372 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've 373 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software and 374 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You 375 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: can sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. That's 376 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: how I work dot co so at almanac, what deserves 377 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: a meeting? 378 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's two types of meetings that I 379 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 3: have found really valuable. One type of meeting that we 380 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 3: have often that I think is worth the time is 381 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 3: when we have a problem to solve that is a 382 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 3: complex problem that has a complex answer, where you can't 383 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: just send a document to somebody and say. 384 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 4: Do you approve or not? 385 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 3: And to be clear, there are a lot of processes 386 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 3: where there are simple answers to simple questions that can 387 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: be automated and completed asynchronously. And so you know, things 388 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 3: like approving marketing copy or redlining contracts or getting feedback 389 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: on new product proposals. Those are all things we don't 390 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 3: have meetings for out HAMANAC. But when we're for example, 391 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 3: trying to figure out, you know, what's our approach to 392 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 3: AI or what should our growth goal be this month, 393 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: those aren't things that are easily done asynchronously. They often 394 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 3: require lots of input from diverse stakeholders, a bit of 395 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 3: conversation where I think the conversation can lead to a 396 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 3: better outcome or answer than we could ever get to 397 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: if we were just communicating linearly. And for example, a 398 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 3: comments thread. So those types of complex problems with complex answers, 399 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 3: I think require a meeting. I think a second type 400 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 3: of meaning that we have that's helpful as something that's urgent, 401 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 3: where you actually just need to get something done now, 402 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 3: and that's where often people are in slack or another 403 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 3: communication channel and we're just getting on the phone can 404 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 3: actually get to an answer faster. And the third important 405 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 3: type of meaning is to create a sense of connection 406 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 3: and reinforce the culture of our team. And that's less 407 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: from like we have a business objective to complete and 408 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 3: more we're a bunch of humans working together every day 409 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: and spending a majority of our waking hours together and 410 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 3: recognizing that we are people and that we need to 411 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 3: connect with each other. And part of the joy of 412 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: work is working with is getting to spend time with 413 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 3: people that you like and respect and trust. And I 414 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 3: think a great way to reinforce that is their meetings, 415 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 3: where you get just so much more information by seeing 416 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 3: somebody their body language, how they react to what you're saying. 417 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 4: And we actually spend a lot of time. 418 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 3: In our kind of weekly or even daily stand ups 419 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 3: starting with a kickoff question. We have a whole library 420 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: of them at this point, like a thousand questions that 421 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: we figured out over time, things like what did you 422 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 3: want to be when you grow up? 423 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 4: Or what you're perfect Saturday? Or you know, what do 424 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 4: you serve. 425 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 3: On Christmas Evening? That help people understand more like who 426 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 3: they're really working with, because we're all so much more 427 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 3: than our jobs, and I think spending synchronous time to 428 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: get to know each other and build culture ultimately leads 429 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 3: to better work, more satisfied teams, and faster business value. 430 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: I want to talk about principal seven, which is the 431 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: more you ask for feedback, the better your end work 432 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: will be. I've got a few questions around that. Firstly, 433 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: when do you ask for feedback at what point in 434 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: a project? 435 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 4: All the time? 436 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 3: And we've learned as the principle has gone it and 437 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 3: we should have learned this sooner, judging from all the 438 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: research you've done where people talked about the importance of 439 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: feedback that you know, essentially, you know, if you think 440 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 3: about I think one a lot of the universes, compounding 441 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 3: that progress over time becomes greater and greater because you're 442 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: actually just building on the progress of the past, and 443 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 3: so that it turns into a log curve which looks 444 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: like you know, technology growth, but that's also how growth 445 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 3: works for people and their behavior and teams and their actions. 446 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: You know, it often starts looking pretty incremental, but over 447 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 3: time that reaches an inflection point. And so if you 448 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 3: believe in compounding, what that means is that you know, 449 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: in a given period of time, if you were to 450 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: only iterate once, let's say you you know, your version 451 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 3: was so good that it was twice as good as 452 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: the thing you did before, then now you have a 453 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 3: two x improvement. But if in that same period of 454 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 3: time you were to iterate let's say ten times, but 455 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 3: each of those times only make like ten to twenty 456 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 3: percent progress, you'd end up with a byproduct at the 457 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: end of that. 458 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 4: That's something like eight to ten x better. 459 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 3: So what matters, just based on kind of math, is 460 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 3: not like how good you are a version of a 461 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 3: version on something, but really the amount of times you 462 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 3: try and by trying me the amount of times you 463 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 3: put something out there and get feedback on it. And 464 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 3: I think that's true for basically every function. The amount 465 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,959 Speaker 3: of times you show a prototype or a new feature 466 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: to customers and get their feedback. Often people you know 467 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 3: want to hold it and try and make it perfect, 468 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: but it's actually better to get it out there, get 469 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: because you're going to learn so much more about what's 470 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: good and what's bad, and be able to improve on 471 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: the good things and get rid of the bad things. 472 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 3: It's true in marketing where you're testing copy. It's true 473 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: in sales where the number of times you kind of 474 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 3: pitch something to potential customers. It's true in management where 475 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 3: you're asked feedback from the team. People don't like asking 476 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: for feedback because it's really uncomfortable to expose yourself and 477 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 3: to potentially be wrong and to hear things you don't 478 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 3: want to hear. But I think that's if you can 479 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: learn how to do that and be comfortable with the discomfort, 480 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 3: you end up gaining so much more and you end 481 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 3: up winning so much bigger because the end result is 482 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 3: so much better than anything you could have done in 483 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: the echo chamber of your own thoughts and beliefs. 484 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: Principle three says creating a calm, sustainable team culture with 485 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: no surprises and few fire drills leads to faster velocity 486 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: and better work. I feel like, in like all the 487 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: different organizations that I've worked with in terms of clients 488 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: of Inventium, and even within Inventium. You know, I can 489 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: think of so many surprises and things that come up 490 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: that you just could never have planned for, like that 491 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: are outside of our control, like a client requesting something 492 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: at the last minute, or a supplier changing the terms 493 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: of a contract or something like that. How again, how 494 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: does this actually work in practice at Almanac? 495 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: I think if I were to boil the modern work 496 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 3: method down to six words, it would be more structure 497 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 3: and more transparency if youwer meetings. And with this idea 498 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 3: that a lot of the work that humans I think 499 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,479 Speaker 3: are meant to do should be creative work. But we 500 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 3: are spending a lot of time on repetitive processes that 501 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 3: aren't at all creative, and we are dedicating time. We 502 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 3: are tree reading things that happen continually as if they 503 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 3: are creative processes, as if they're new phenomena. When maybe 504 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 3: it's near the first time it happens, but if it 505 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: happens a second or third, or tenth or thirty at time, 506 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 3: it's something that we have seen. 507 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 4: It's something that we have done. 508 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: We may have been good at solving it or bad 509 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 3: at solving it, but we certainly have experience, and so 510 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 3: we can start to codify a process around it, learn 511 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: from what happened, and if we apply structure to it 512 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: and intentionality to it, we can take it from something 513 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 3: that takes creative brain power and turn it into something 514 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 3: that's more automated, something that we don't need to meet 515 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 3: about or talk about, but something that just runs smoothly 516 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: in the background of the organization. And so I think 517 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 3: a lot of what we are advocating for is even 518 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 3: things that might be surprises upfront. 519 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 4: Or things that might be unpredictable and when they start. 520 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 3: For at Almanac, it's things like customers filing tickets for 521 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 3: bugs or asking for future improvements, or the site going 522 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 3: down god for a bit. 523 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 4: You know, those aren't things we can predict. 524 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 3: But everything that happens after that moment is something that 525 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: we can handle. And even we can design a system 526 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 3: to account for the unpredictability and the risk there's that's 527 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 3: something humans do all the time with systems design. 528 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: Every system has. 529 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 3: A bit of ambiguity in it, and so there are 530 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 3: ways to mitigate or plan for that, uh, that uncertainty. 531 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 3: And the way the way you started just by recognizing 532 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 3: their's uncertainty and talking about and coming up with a 533 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: process as I'm sure you have a inventim on on 534 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 3: things like, you know, customer fire drills. I think where 535 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 3: a lot of teams go wrong is they don't something 536 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 3: happens the first time and it is truly a fire drill, 537 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: and then it happens the second time, and they treat 538 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: it as if the first time didn't happen, rather than 539 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: after it happens, doing a quick retrod and saying. 540 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 4: Hey, hey, what what just happened? How did it go? 541 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: Like? 542 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 4: Do we think it's going to happen again? And you know, 543 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: should we should? We build a process for it. 544 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 3: And I think the more structure you have and how 545 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: your team works, the more fire drills don't have to 546 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 3: be fire drills, and you can spend that time instead 547 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 3: on creative and meaningful work that is really moving the needle, 548 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 3: the reasons people actually wake up in the morning to 549 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: do their jobs and the reason the company exists, which 550 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 3: is to serve customers and add value. 551 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: I'm reflecting on the last couple of weeks at Inventium, 552 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: where I feel like we have had fire drills in 553 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: the form of consultants or inventeologists who were booked into 554 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: deliver workshops. One got COVID, another got really sick with 555 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: a flu like bug, and they were down and we 556 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: were like struggling to find replacements. 557 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: And I kind of I look back on that. 558 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: Now and it's like, that has happened many times in 559 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: the sixteen years that I've been running in Ventium. We've 560 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: never actually sat down and said, Okay, what is our 561 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: process for when this happens, despite the fact that it 562 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: has happened many many times in the time that I've 563 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: had this business. Sorry, it's yeah, for me, that's that's 564 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: really interesting hearing you, because I'm like, yeah, what about humans. 565 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: You can't pretty humans, But it's like, no, you can predict. 566 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: That humans will get seek and they will need some 567 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: sort of a replacement in the thing that they were 568 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: meant to be doing that week. 569 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can certainly account for the uncertainty. There's whole 570 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 3: industries around this management. 571 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 4: That are about that. 572 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 3: You know, most of our legal and governance systems are 573 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: really about accounting for risk and uncertainty. And just two 574 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: antecdotes for you. One, when we started this work, I 575 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: used to think that people got satisfaction from work from 576 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 3: spending time on deep work. There's whole books that are 577 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: really great written about this, and I thought it was 578 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 3: all about flow and focus and that's where people find meaning. 579 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 3: And when I when we talked to these amazing professionals, 580 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 3: what people people evaluated whether a week was effective based 581 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 3: on if they got stuff done on their to do list. 582 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 3: And the enemy of getting stuff done is a fire drill, 583 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: and so what people hated them most wasn't that they 584 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 3: sometimes were just processing cast but it's when something got 585 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 3: in the way of them being able to. 586 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 4: Cross stuff off there to do list. 587 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 3: So it shifted our thinking from how do we enable 588 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: through our tool time for people to do deep creative 589 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 3: work to how do we help people just get through 590 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: their to do list faster so that they can get 591 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: done with their days get back to. 592 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 4: Other things that might matter them. 593 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: Because everybody hated ending a week feeling like they weren't 594 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 3: able to get important work done for with themselves and 595 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: their teams, and so this idea of minimizing fire drills 596 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 3: became an important principle to this end because it's not 597 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 3: just about something that makes the team move faster, but 598 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 3: it's also directly correlated to people feeling like their week 599 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: was a success and getting meaning and value from work. 600 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: The second idea to your point is that we love 601 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 3: the slogan from the US Marines. Slow means smooth and 602 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: smooth means fast. Where a lot of teams go wrong 603 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 3: isn't that they had to respond quickly to a new 604 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: event that they've never seen before. It's that they don't 605 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: stop afterwards, take a breath and say, like, what just happened, 606 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 3: how did it go? How do we make sure that 607 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 3: the next time this happens that we have some smoothness 608 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: in how we respond. Because this, when you have calmness 609 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: and order and structure, it's not just a more enjoyable experience, 610 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 3: it actually increases business and team velocity, and so you 611 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: can actually go faster while it feels like everybody is 612 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: moving at a sustainable pace. If you look at paddling races, 613 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: what you'll see is that the teams that win aren't 614 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: the teams with the strongest men. They're the teams that 615 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 3: are putting their paddles into the water at exactly the 616 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 3: same time. Because when everybody is moving together, you get 617 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 3: more momentum behind the boat, and that's much more important 618 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 3: than just like chaotic strength throwing stuff into the water 619 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 3: that actually ends up working at cross purposes. And so 620 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 3: what's critical is that a team is working together with 621 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 3: some structure, with some transparency, so that in the end 622 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: everybody feels like they're doing work that's sustainable for them, 623 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 3: but the whole boat is moving faster as a result, Adam. 624 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: For the listeners that want to connect with you, what 625 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: is the best way to do so and also to 626 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: connect with Almanac. 627 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you're interested in everything we've talked about today, 628 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 3: go to Modern work method dot com. I think we 629 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 3: have hundreds of free templates on there that help you 630 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 3: take a lot of these ideas and turn them into 631 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 3: practices your organization can use now. And if you're interested 632 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 3: in actually adopting a lot of these behaviors, the whole 633 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 3: point in building Almanac is to make it seamless for 634 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 3: your team just to start to work faster and better 635 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: without you having to spend time on it. And you 636 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 3: can get a demo and try out the product at 637 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 3: almanac dot io. And I think I'm on Twitter and 638 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: LinkedIn at Adam. 639 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: P Nathan Adam. I have loved this chat. 640 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: I feel like I've had quite a few penny drop moments. 641 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: That's really making me rethink how we do things at Inventium. 642 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you for you 643 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: for putting such deep thought into how work can be 644 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: done better in this new world. 645 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: Of work that we're in. 646 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: I've personally just found our chat so incredibly valuable, So 647 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: thank you well. 648 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. That's been funner. 649 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: I hope that you got as much as I did 650 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: from this chat with Adam. I know that it gave 651 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: me so many ideas to think about how we work 652 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: at Inventium, where we've been a remote first organization since 653 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. And if you know someone who's currently in 654 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: the process of maybe rethinking how they approach their work, 655 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: maybe you might want to share this interview with them 656 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: to help spark some thinking. Thank you for sharing part 657 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: of your day with me by listening to How I Work. 658 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: Keen for more tips on how to work better? Connect 659 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. 660 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded 661 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of 662 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: the cool and Nation. I am so grateful for being 663 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: able to work and live on this beautiful land, and 664 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present 665 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: and emerging. How I Work is produced by Inventium with 666 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this 667 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba 668 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: who did the audio mix and makes everything sound better 669 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: than it would have otherwise