1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Now much has been said in the last Fortnight about 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: the Eykak report into the so called Jobs for Mate scandal. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: The anonymised report found a senior public servant had committed 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: unsatisfactory conduct in the management of their conflicts of interest 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: after failing to disclose the context or the full extent 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: of their friendship with a candidate, despite remaining on the 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: recruitment panel and providing them with a reference. Now days later, 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: the Police Commissioner Michael Murphy outed himself as the person 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: at the center of that report. The Chief Minister yesterday 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: announcing Michael Murphy's appointment as Commissioner has been terminated. Since then, 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: there's been many comparisons drawn between this situation and the 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: failed court prosecution of former Children's Commissioner Colaine Gwynn. Gwinn 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: was cleared of a charge of abuse or of office 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: almost two years ago after prosecutors could not produce enough 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: ever to continue her trial. She'd been accused of attempting 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: to hire a friend who had previously acted in that 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: role as the Assistant Children's Commissioner. From the start, she 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: declared that conflict. Colin Gwynn joins me on the line. 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Good Morning Colleen, Hey, how are you, Katie? Yeah, really good. 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the show. Now, Colleen, 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: what do you make of the situation regarding Michael Murphy 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: when you compare it to your own? Oh? 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's been pretty much front page since 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: it's happened, and there has been a lot of comparisons, 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: comparisons made with my matter for obvious reasons. Now, I 26 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: was put through three and a half years a hell 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: for recruiting someone I absolutely knew and who was a 28 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: friend of mine. And the difference between my matter is 29 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: I brought that to the attention of everybody, including two 30 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: different ces at the time, the head of the HR 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: area HR lawyer. Everyone, everyone knew that I knew this person. 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: I had worked with him in police previously. In fact, 33 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: I knew everyone in my office. I had two ex 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 2: police in there. And so I went about a process 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: where I removed myself from the interview panel because I 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: knew two people on the panel who were being interviewed, 37 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: and everything I did was so overt. I went through steps. 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: In fact, I probably was too concerned about it, and 39 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: then I would be accused, put before a criminal court, 40 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: taken a trial for this matter. Have a look at 41 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: Michael Murphy where he's putting himself on a panel, he's 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: providing references, he's not disclosing any of this, and there 43 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: you can see there's a pattern where people are getting 44 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: promoted and perhaps not going through all the steps. Then 45 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: to sit back and allow this to play out in 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: the media until the public pressure was so much that 47 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: he had to put his hand on his heart and say, oh, 48 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: that was me, Sorry, I got it wrong. Compared to 49 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: what I went through, this is just simply unfair and 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: completely ridiculous. I was happy to be quiet, move on 51 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 2: with my life and put back and put this down 52 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: as a pretty dark time in my life. But I 53 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: have to speak up. This is just not acceptable when 54 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: you have the commissioner directly involved in my matter, It's 55 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: just completely unacceptable. 56 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: What was it like for you that day when you 57 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: had the police turn up to your house and you 58 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: realize that this covert operation had been going on for months? 59 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: Well, Katie that we didn't realize that until my legal 60 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: team and I started going through the documents, that I 61 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: was under surveillance for months. You know, they were watching 62 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: me in my office, they were listening to things I 63 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: was saying, they had my phones off for about a year, 64 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: and the level of investigation and the techniques they used 65 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 2: normally attributed to or given to an investigation for something 66 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: serious such as a murder or a serious druggle importation. 67 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: It was just unbelievable the length and the costs they 68 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: went to for an accusation, which is really a hr matter, 69 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: not a criminal matter. 70 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: Colleen, Look, I can't even begin to imagine the toll 71 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: that it must have had on you personally, mentally, financially, 72 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: your career, your family. I mean, you've had to totally 73 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: uproot your life. Is it still raw five years on? 74 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: Look, it's been difficult. You know, my family and I 75 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: have been through. You know, I can't explain how difficult 76 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: it's been on so many levels. And I feel like 77 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: I've missed a couple of years with my children. I 78 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: just wasn't there, I wasn't capable. I went into a 79 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: pretty dark, dark place. There was times I didn't think 80 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: I would survive. And looking back now, it's hard to 81 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: put myself back in the shoes that I was wearing 82 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: them and understand how painful that was. When you were 83 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: accused of something that you know you didn't do it 84 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: is to not have a voice in that, and I 85 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: still this is the first time I've had a voice 86 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 2: in any of this. It is debilitating. There's no there's 87 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: no day that goes past that some memory of it 88 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: or doesn't appear, and I don't feel some still some 89 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: element of anxiety, sadness and frustration in relation to everything 90 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: that happened. 91 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: How much has been a mum and having the love 92 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: from your children helped you through those dark days? 93 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: Oh, Katie, it's I sometimes wonder if I would be 94 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: here if it wasn't for my children, you know, And 95 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: they're very protective of me now, you know. They they 96 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: to have these little people that really didn't know what 97 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: was going on, but they sense something wasn't right. You know, 98 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: when when your mum's personality and that it completely changes 99 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: and they see that you're you're entirely sad and that 100 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: they know something pretty significant was going on. And so 101 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 2: trying to manage my children and manage the situation was 102 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: probably the most challenging thing I've ever done. And those 103 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: kids have been my shavior and still today, you know, 104 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: they've got that protection around me that will probably be 105 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: there forever. 106 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: Now I reckon it will be. Colleen, the Chief Minister 107 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: joins me on the show on Monday, and she said 108 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: that she's not ruled out an inquiry into your matter. 109 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: Is that something that you'd like to have happen, Katie? 110 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: Such a really good question. Look, I'm in the territory. 111 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: We call for inquiries on this, inquiries on that. There's 112 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: so many things, but you know what, we're just not 113 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: good at doing it. I don't have faith and anyone 114 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: could look into my matter and understand what occurred that 115 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: we're just not good at this. I think there is 116 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: enough known by government now, not only in relation to 117 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: my matter, but in relation to the Michael Murphy matter 118 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: to say, okay, we need to take some action. My 119 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: biggest thing here is I would love them to apologize 120 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: and say, hey, sorry, Colin, we got this wrong. We 121 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: simply got this wrong because they did. And I don't 122 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: think you need an expensive inquiry, which territories then have 123 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: to pay for, to be able to say, hey, we're 124 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: stuffed up here and we're sorry for what we put 125 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: you through. And I don't think you need an expensive 126 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: inquiry to understand that Michael Murphy's also made some mistakes. 127 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: I think what the territory needs to do is get 128 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: back on to the business of fixing the mistakes of 129 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: the past. And if you look at the Northern Territory 130 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: Police Force, it was a uniform I was proud to wear, 131 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: not so much the new color, but certainly the khaki 132 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: color I loved. I loved wearing the khaki color. The 133 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 2: respect of the community, and we were known as a 134 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: resilient and adaptable police force that we worked in pretty 135 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 2: harsh conditions. We did things that no other police force 136 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: would ever think are doing, and it was a great organization. 137 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: I really feel for the people in the police up there. 138 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: Many of my good friends are still cops in the 139 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: territory and they are great people. We still have a 140 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: great police force. But let's stop reviewing everything and let's 141 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: just fix it. 142 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: I mean, do you want the It sounds like what 143 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: you are after, though, is an apology. Is that something 144 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: that you are going to contact the Chief Minister about. 145 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: I mean, we're happy to ask her about it on 146 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: the show, but we're too from here with that. 147 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: Oh look, it's a really hard one. You know, you've 148 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: got a new Chief Minister. He's getting on with the 149 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: business of trying to fix the territory. There's massive issues 150 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: in the territory around crime, around the economy, around you know, 151 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: imagine being the chief minister of any jurisdiction. Of course, 152 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 2: you know. I would love to be able to sit 153 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: in a room with the chief and say, hey, this 154 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: is what's happened to me, this is what the consequences were. 155 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: I want you to make sure, while you're in power 156 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: that this doesn't happen to anyone else, because it shouldn't happen. 157 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: People should be protected for just doing their job. And 158 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: that's what I was doing. I was doing my job 159 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: and I had no protection, and it didn't matter who 160 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: I tried to get assistance from. Every door was closed. 161 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: We have to change that. We've got to understand that 162 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: these decisions and this approach has real implications for people. 163 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: We've got to have a government that's much more transparent, 164 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: much more accountability, and we've got to be decent to 165 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: each other. This is just the The territory is in 166 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: a really bad position, but it doesn't need to be. 167 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: Let's stop reviewing. Let's get on with the business of 168 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 2: getting the territory back to where it should be. 169 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: Colleen, in regard to your court trial, which was thrown 170 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: out due to a lack of evidence. There was the 171 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: revelation to come out of it with the racist remark 172 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: about the former acting Assistant Children's Commissioner, which police found 173 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: after trawling through months of secret recordings. Do you regret 174 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: making that comment? Oh? 175 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I said that immediately upon my acquittal, that that 176 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: was disgraceful and if that's what they found after a 177 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 2: year of listening to me, then I probably I would 178 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: really challenge anyone who has their private conversations recorded for 179 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 2: a lengthy period that you would say things that you 180 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: wouldn't say in a public arena. By saying those comments 181 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 2: doesn't make me a racist. It means I said a 182 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: racist thing, and I said it under enormous pressure when 183 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: a lot of things were going on, and it is 184 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: not my best moment and it's something that I will 185 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: absolutely regret to the day I die. 186 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: Colleen, you've been a pioneer of women's football in the 187 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: Northern Territory. The ntfl's Women's Leagues Best and Fairest Award 188 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: named in your honor back in twenty sixteen, but your 189 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: name was later stripped from that medal. What kind of 190 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: impact did that have. 191 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: That was I can't describe that impact was significant. To 192 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: be accused of being racist for making a comment. Was 193 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: that hurt? That hurt terribly a lot of my friends 194 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: in the territory of Indigenous people. I've coached indigenous football teams. 195 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 2: It was. It really hurt. And I think that the 196 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: I guess the strategy to try and bring me down 197 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 2: as a person was very much implemented once they realized 198 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: there was no criminality in anything that I did. It 199 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: was a pretty dirty game they played and it had 200 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: enormous impact on me on my reputation, you know. And 201 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 2: again that's something that I that I have to live 202 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: with now. 203 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: Colleen, if you could change something from your situation, what 204 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: would you like it to be? 205 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: Okay? I think what the territory has been missing is good, robust, 206 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 2: courageous leadership. Particularly in my matto. It was known by 207 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: the government of the day that there was no criminal 208 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: in my conduct, and that was known to the previous 209 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: Chief Minister and the Chief Ministers under the previous government, 210 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: but you know, they weren't willing to do anything about it. 211 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: What the territory needs is really strong leadership, stand up, 212 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: call out what's wrong and fix it. I've said it 213 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: in this interview. We've got to stop undertaking inquiries when 214 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: we already know there is an issue and we have 215 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: to take action and we've got to move forward. So 216 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: my message is make the decisions, the bold decisions, the 217 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: courageous decisions, and let's get back into the business of 218 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: improving the territory from the economy down to the crime. 219 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: Let's just get get on with get on with making 220 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: the territory great again. 221 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: Well, Colleen Gwin, I really appreciate your time this morning. 222 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on the show. 223 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: Jeez, Katie, thank you, thank you.