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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers,

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Speaker 2: now what actually happens here? Is that a name, in

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Speaker 2: some ways sends a signal to society about who you

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Speaker 2: are and where you're from.

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Speaker 3: And now here's the stars of our show.

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Speaker 2: My mom and dad. Now and then we record a

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Speaker 2: podcast episode that makes me nervous. It makes me wonder,

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Speaker 2: is this a good idea? Should we do this? Missus

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Speaker 2: Happy Families. I'm not even going to introduce the topic yet.

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Speaker 2: I just want to know, have we made a mistake

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Speaker 2: before we even begin or is this going to be okay?

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Speaker 2: Or I hope not? You hope not. Well, you hope

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Speaker 2: it's not going to be okay? Is that you know?

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Speaker 3: I hope that it's not a mistake. I hope it's okay.

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Speaker 2: I'm really nervous about this one. Here we go, ladies

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Speaker 2: and gentlemen. I'm justin here with Kylie, my wife and

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Speaker 2: mum to our six kids. I run Happy Families dot

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Speaker 2: com dot a you. But but before I tell you

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Speaker 2: what the topic is, I want to let you know

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Speaker 2: that there is science. There is science behind what we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about, and it's good science. And I

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Speaker 2: also need to highlight that we're not doing this podcast

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Speaker 2: to shame anyone, Kylie. We have the very very very

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Speaker 2: best of intentions. Correct, correct, but we are going to

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Speaker 2: laugh and make fun of people in spite of it.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe that we're doing this all right. So

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Speaker 2: here it is. Just in the last few days, there's

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Speaker 2: been a news article that has landed on news dot

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Speaker 2: com dot a U, Australia's apparently number one news website,

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Speaker 2: although most of the time I wonder if it is

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Speaker 2: actually news on that website. Kylie introduces to the topic,

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Speaker 2: I don't even know if I want you. I'm I'm

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Speaker 2: throwing you under the bus, totally sure. I just I

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Speaker 2: want to be associated only with the science side of this.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure of it.

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Speaker 3: So the article is titled Australia's most Bogan baby Names

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Speaker 3: for twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what we're really going to do here is

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Speaker 2: we're going to highlight that people are coming up with

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Speaker 2: some names that we might consider creative. Yeah, creative is

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Speaker 2: better than what I was going to say. Some creative

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Speaker 2: baby names, and we're going to share some of them

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Speaker 2: with you and then talk about whether it's a good

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Speaker 2: or a bad idea to give your kids names that

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Speaker 2: end up on news dot com dot au.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. I've been reading a book lately,

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Speaker 3: it's actually off your book case, called The End of

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Speaker 3: Average by Todd Rose.

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Speaker 2: I love this book. It's one of my favorite books

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Speaker 2: of all time.

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Speaker 3: It's funny we're talking about, you know this, these creative

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Speaker 3: ways that parents strive to create individuality for their children.

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Speaker 1: Ye.

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Speaker 3: And it's almost like this desire to make sure that

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Speaker 3: their child stands out that they don't, you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of fall into what we would consider the average name.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to I'm going to speak personally here,

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Speaker 2: and I hope it doesn't come back to bite me.

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Speaker 2: I love my brother and his wife and their kids

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Speaker 2: just gorgeous. But Tim my brother, who's a famous photographer,

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Speaker 2: or he used to be, at least I don't know

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Speaker 2: what he's doing with that anymore, but really well known

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Speaker 2: for his photography. And he and Cash are both really

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Speaker 2: creative types. They love the process of creation. They're always

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Speaker 2: thinking about being creative. And when it came to their kids' names,

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Speaker 2: they wanted intentionally, they wanted to give their kids names

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Speaker 2: that were standout names that were unique names. Now, they

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Speaker 2: would never make a list of Bogan baby names for

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, but they're really unique. My sister's down the.

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Speaker 3: Same with her kids. They are really different names. And

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Speaker 3: I know. I remember each time she was pregnant and

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Speaker 3: we'd kind of asked her what she was thinking for

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Speaker 3: a name. She literally got to a point after baby

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Speaker 3: number two, I think where she just said, I'm not

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Speaker 3: telling you. She said, because once you meet the baby

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Speaker 3: and I tell you what its name is, you'll love

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Speaker 3: it anyway. But while ever, it's just a blip in

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Speaker 3: my belly. Yeah, and it's just a name on a page.

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Speaker 3: She said, you're gonna hate it.

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Speaker 2: I just know you are.

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Speaker 3: She's been very deliberate. I've got other friends who've been

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Speaker 3: very specific about using unisex names so that their children

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Speaker 3: aren't identifiable as male or female based on their name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, really interesting. And here I was. I thought

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Speaker 2: that we were coming up with really great names for

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Speaker 2: our kids. I mean, it was kind of hard to

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Speaker 2: come up with six girls names. But Chanelle, we thought

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Speaker 2: that was unusual. And there's not a lot of Chanel's around.

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Speaker 2: But I remember when we had channels though that we

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Speaker 2: got to number three and I wanted to go kind

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Speaker 2: of a little bit old school, and I remember we

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Speaker 2: talked about it and we both agreed that Ella Ella

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Speaker 2: Rose would be great. And there were hardly any Ellas

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Speaker 2: around at the time, and now every grade level that

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Speaker 2: she's been in, she's been with at least two or three,

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Speaker 2: maybe four or five other Elas like are everywhere. And

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Speaker 2: all of our kids' names ended up being pretty middle

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Speaker 2: of the road, pretty average, pretty standard girls' names. So,

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Speaker 2: now that we've prolonged the agony, if you've called your

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Speaker 2: children any of the following names, we're not saying you're

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Speaker 2: a bogan. We're not saying that you've done anything wrong.

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Speaker 2: We're not shaming you. What we're doing is we're saying

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Speaker 2: that news dot com, dot you is shaming you. News

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Speaker 2: dot com, dot you has decided that they want to

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Speaker 2: pick on you, and we're just we're just reporting what

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Speaker 2: was in the paper, which is reporting what was in

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Speaker 2: the news article. Kylie, why don't you kick us off?

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Speaker 2: What were the girls the best?

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Speaker 3: I don't even know if I'm going to be able

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Speaker 3: to pronounce some of these names. We've got Mavery, which

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Speaker 3: is Mayve plus avery makes mavery huh. Yeah, We've got Kre.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna say Kyre. It's supposed to be. It's supposed

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Speaker 3: to be like Dior as in Christian Door. We've got Cardi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well well Cardi Cardi b right, but that's short

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Speaker 2: for a CARDI. Throw on a K for a bit

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Speaker 2: of random spelling there, just because if you're going to

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Speaker 2: go bogan, you've got to change the spelling up as well. Uh,

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Speaker 2: what else have we got any other girls names that

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Speaker 2: really struck you? Brexley Brexley, like we're having brexit? How

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Speaker 2: do you spell Brexley? Is that b r E b

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Speaker 2: r e c k brickle b r e x it's

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Speaker 2: got an x in it l e I G h

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Speaker 2: oh wow. Well so, so I believe that the the

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Speaker 2: V or the lee or the whatever sound is is

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Speaker 2: right in so I also saw that there was OBC.

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Speaker 2: The one that concerned me the most was the one

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Speaker 2: that's been named after the vape brand Jewel j u

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Speaker 2: u l so originally a Dutch name, but Jewel is

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Speaker 2: now a vape brand, and like that that does sound

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Speaker 2: kind of bogun, right if you're gonna if you're gonna

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Speaker 2: name it after a vape. Is that is that going

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Speaker 2: too far? What do you reckon?

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Speaker 3: Look, I'm just I'm scrolling its four.

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Speaker 2: I actually like that name, by the way, Jewel, but

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Speaker 2: just knowing that it's named after the vape brand kind

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Speaker 2: of diminishes it in my in my.

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Speaker 3: Just spell it differently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like Jewel Duwel Kilcher. You were meant for me Jewel?

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Speaker 2: You know the you remember the Folks singer from way back.

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Speaker 3: I remember a few years ago when we were we

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Speaker 3: were having babies at that point, and there was, you know,

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Speaker 3: a trend to kind of use nature as inspiration for

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Speaker 3: baby names. And we had a friend called their child river,

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Speaker 3: and another one called the Haven, and another one called

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Speaker 3: them summer and winter.

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Speaker 2: We had an autumn we know, someone called snow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm just looking at this list and they've

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Speaker 3: definitely taken the next step.

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Speaker 2: They like they've done the next step.

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Speaker 3: There's salmon.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, wow? Is that for a girl or a boy?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I could call my child salmon.

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Speaker 2: I just although sometimes my kids are so scrumptious I

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Speaker 2: could eat them, but I don't think i'd call them.

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Speaker 2: Someon here are my favorite boys' names already, We've got brave.

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Speaker 2: There's Draxler, d R A x L E R Cashton,

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Speaker 2: Knoxley Knox as in K and O X Knoxley. I

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Speaker 2: actually like that. You're so bogan. I can't believe how

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Speaker 2: bogan you are, missus Happy Families. What about this one legend?

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Speaker 2: So it's like legend, but the d is halfway through

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Speaker 2: the word instead of at the end led gin instead

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Speaker 2: of legendo. Oh, the two that got my the two

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Speaker 2: that really got me going raw raw ro a r raw.

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Speaker 2: The next one, Yeah, what's the last one?

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Speaker 3: Zinc?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, zinc. Let's call our kids zinc. Anyway, we

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Speaker 2: have now done the shaming thing. There is actually some

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Speaker 2: science around having an unusual name and what that does

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Speaker 2: to your child's chances of success in life. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have a look at that. Next, it's the Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 1: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 1: of Disciplined is a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 1: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at Happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: parent who just wants answers. Now, tell me, doctor Justin,

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Speaker 3: what is the science behind giving your children unusual names?

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Speaker 2: I kind of feel like we've just defended the entire

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Speaker 2: the entire planet today in this podcast. But anyway, here's

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Speaker 2: what we know from research. First of all, you spend

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Speaker 2: forever trying to figure this out, right, I mean, just

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Speaker 2: figuring it out is so so difficult. But early studies

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Speaker 2: have found that men with uncommon first names more likely

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Speaker 2: to drop out of school and more likely to be

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Speaker 2: lonely later in life. And one study found that psychiatric

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Speaker 2: patients who had more unusual names tended to be more disturbed.

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Speaker 2: Here's what else I can tell you. Research evidence tells

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Speaker 2: us that different names are popular among different social classes,

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Speaker 2: and it's the different social classes that have different opportunities

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Speaker 2: and goals. So there's been some research in the UK,

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Speaker 2: there's been some research in the United States. What actually

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Speaker 2: happens here is that a in some ways sends a

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Speaker 2: signal to society about who you are and where you're from. Now,

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Speaker 2: this really does run the risk from a political point

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Speaker 2: of view, of putting us in a situation where we're

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Speaker 2: actually pre judging people, and it's a horrible thing to say,

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Speaker 2: so I want to be really gentle when I say this.

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Speaker 2: When we look at the data though, and this is

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Speaker 2: some research from a study in two thousand and three.

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Speaker 2: The study was called are Emily and Greg more employable

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Speaker 2: than Lakeisha and Jamal? So the two researchers their names

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Speaker 2: were Mary Anne Bertrand and Send Hill. I can't actually

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Speaker 2: pronounce this research's surname, but I'm going to try Melay Nathan.

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Speaker 2: They sent nearly five thousand cvs in response to job

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Speaker 2: advertisements in Chicago and Boston newspapers. Cvs are exactly the same,

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Speaker 2: but half well given fake names. It sounded like they

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Speaker 2: belonged to white people like Emily Walsh or Greg Baker,

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Speaker 2: and the other half were given names that sounded African American,

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Speaker 2: like Lakeisha Washington or Jamal Jones. And the callback rate

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Speaker 2: from employers was fifty percent higher on the white names

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Speaker 2: than the black names. And this was even found with

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Speaker 2: federal contractors that have got affirmative action policies and companies

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Speaker 2: that said they were equal opportunity employers. If we move

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Speaker 2: even further into this little area of it's a quagmire

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Speaker 2: really in terms of the prejudice and the things that

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Speaker 2: it can stir up. David Figlio as a researcher at

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Speaker 2: Northwestern University, and he had a look at the scores

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Speaker 2: of fifty five thousand children in a school district of Florida,

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Speaker 2: and instead of just distinguishing between white and black names,

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Speaker 2: he codified what aspects of names meant that they were

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Speaker 2: more likely to belong to black children and children from

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Speaker 2: low income families. So we was able to create this

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Speaker 2: sliding scale which went, for example, from Drew to Dwayne

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Speaker 2: to DeMarcus to da Quan. And so you can see

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Speaker 2: how you're on this scale of these names beginning with

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Speaker 2: d and they're getting increasingly unusual, increasingly unique, and also

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Speaker 2: increasingly likely to belong to a certain social class or

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Speaker 2: a certain racial background, or whatever it might be. And

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Speaker 2: what David Figlio found with this big study was that

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Speaker 2: the further along the scale he went, the worse the

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Speaker 2: school test scores were, the less likely the student was

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Speaker 2: to be recommended for the school's program for gifted students.

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Speaker 2: And in a separate study, he used the same data

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Speaker 2: to show that African American boys who were given names

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Speaker 2: more common among girls more likely to develop behavioral problems

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Speaker 2: when they reach puberty, and those problems increase significantly when

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Speaker 2: there are girls in the same year group with the

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Speaker 2: same name. So we can't say for sure that a

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Speaker 2: name is going to highlight a person's chance or otherwise

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Speaker 2: for success in life. And a lot of this stuff

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Speaker 2: is mixed up with race, particularly the American research and

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Speaker 2: also a little bit in the UK. But what all

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Speaker 2: of the research shows, Kylie, is that when you give

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Speaker 2: your kids unique, novel, creative names, it absolutely sets them apart.

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Speaker 2: And the overwhelming majority of the evidence over the last

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Speaker 2: twenty or thirty years is that it sets them apart

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Speaker 2: in ways that we probably wouldn't be pleased about.

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Speaker 3: When my friend was naming her daughters, she made sure

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Speaker 3: that they had a unisex name because of that very reason.

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Speaker 3: She didn't want them to be putting their resume in

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Speaker 3: and being judged on their capacity based on their gender.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And it's.

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Speaker 3: Interesting just how powerful and impression our names have without

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Speaker 3: anybody knowing even who we are.

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Speaker 2: So the moral of the story to take home message,

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Speaker 2: We're not going to tell you what to name your kids.

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Speaker 2: That would be an appropriate but I think that it's

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Speaker 2: really relevant that we just pause and think, if children

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Speaker 2: are coming into the world, how do we want them

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Speaker 2: to be seen by the world, Because they will be

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Speaker 2: seen a certain way. The wrong name can, unfortunately, even

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, can lead to kids being bullied

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Speaker 2: and potentially missing out on opportunities, whether it's a work opportunity,

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Speaker 2: a school opportunity, or otherwise. Hey, Kylie, great conversation. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for finding that article and sharing the Bogan names. I'm

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Speaker 2: glad we were able to have a bit of a

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Speaker 2: laugh about it, but like I said, there is a

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Speaker 2: bit of a serious side to it, and I think

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Speaker 2: that it's worth spending time on that. The Happy Families

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Speaker 2: podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig

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Speaker 2: Bruce is our executive producer. We are really excited to

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Speaker 2: tell you that on the twenty fourth of March, can

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Speaker 2: we please talk about our boys. It's a free webinar,

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Speaker 2: Free free webinar twenty fourth of March to help you

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Speaker 2: to navigate the challenges of raising boys in what can

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Speaker 2: be a very difficult place for our boys all too often.

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Speaker 2: That's the twenty fourth of March free webinar. All the

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Speaker 2: details at our Facebook page, doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families,

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Speaker 2: or online at happy families dot com, dot a