1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: We have a sense of meeting fomo, this fear of 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: missing out that if we don't have a seat at 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 1: the table, it means that we're not worthwhile, or we're 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: going to miss out on an important decision. Or the 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: person who attends the most meetings, they're the person who 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: everyone thinks is working the hardest, when the reality is 7 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: is meetings are not really a way of keeping score. 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: They're a way of getting work done. And if you're 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: not getting work done in a meeting, it's not worth going. 10 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 2: To Welcome to How I Work, a show about the 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: tactics used by the world's most successful people to get 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: so much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: Amanta Inba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral 14 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: science consultancy in Ventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: to optimize my work date. My guest on today's show 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: is Scott Sunenshine. 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 3: Scott is a New York. 18 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: Times best selling author and professor of management at Bryce University. 19 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 2: I actually came across Scott's work a few months ago 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: when I read his second book, which is called Joy 21 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: at Work. 22 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 3: So Scott wrote Joy at Work with best. 23 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: Selling author and Netflix star Murray Kondo, whose cleaning methods 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: I've used in my own home over the years to 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: have a very big impact on the level of cleanliness 26 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: and unclutterliness in my home. So en Joy at Work, 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: Scott and Marie offer stories, lots of research daddies, and 28 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: very practical strategies to help you eliminate clutter and make 29 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: space for work that really matters. So essentially looking at 30 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: how do you clean up your work? I really love 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: Joy at Work, which is why I reached out to Scott, 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: and I think if you're looking for some practical ways 33 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: on how you can clean up things at work, like 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: we are just physical things, but more things like meetings 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: and digital clutter and inbox clutter and things like that, 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 2: I think you'll get a lot out of this interview. 37 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: So on that note, let's go to Scott to hear 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: about how he works. 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 3: Hello, Scott, Welcome to the show. 40 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. 41 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: I am very excited to be talking to you because 42 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: I finished Joy at Work, your most recent book, a 43 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: few weeks ago, and I've already been applying lots of 44 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: strategies and I'm always curious when you're researching a book 45 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: you're obviously learning a lot of new things, and there's 46 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: so many strategies in the book. I want to actually 47 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: start with, what are some of the strategies that you 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: have applied since researching and writing. 49 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 3: The book that have had the biggest impact on your life. 50 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot, actually, And I think it really 51 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: starts with the physical aspect of the book, which is 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: tighting your workspace. And when Marie and I first started 53 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: talking to each other and deciding what we wanted to 54 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: do in terms of writing the book, I told myself, well, 55 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: if I'm going to get into a collaboration with her, 56 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to try her method and make 57 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: sure that I fully embrace it and buy into it. 58 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: So for me, I wanted to start with the professional 59 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: life because that's such a big part of what we're doing, 60 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: and it's such a big part of all of my 61 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: research and writing. So I went and I tided my office, 62 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: and like most academics, my office was a total mess. 63 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: I had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books going 64 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: back to times when I was studying an undergraduate in 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: a completely different field. I had papers, course packets, all 66 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: kinds of collateral from conferences, and stuff all over the place, 67 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: and it was a mess. And I said, Okay, I'm 68 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: going to really dig into the heart of this matter. 69 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to start with books. They're so sacred to me, 70 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: they're sacred to many people in my profession. And I 71 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: took every book off the bookshelf, I put it on 72 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: my phone, and I literally picked up each one and 73 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: went through this process of asking whether or not it's 74 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: spark joy. And at the end of the process, I 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: was down to about half of the amount of books 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: that I started with. And I realized I was keeping 77 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: books because they were once an important part of stuff 78 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: I was interested in, a past project or even another 79 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: subject area I was interested in. But it wasn't really 80 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: bringing me any joy today and it certainly wasn't going 81 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: to do so in the future. It was just a 82 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: fixture in my office and I had so many books. 83 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: I had multiple layers on my bookshelves. They were overflowing. 84 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: And by the time I finished, I had nice, neat 85 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: and tidy bookshelves, and I look forward to coming into 86 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: my office much more so. And I was hooked on there. 87 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: And that was the start of our collaboration, and of 88 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: course we extended what we're doing in the book way 89 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 1: beyond the physical space. But that was really the first 90 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: lesson that I had at this material really can truly 91 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: be career and life changing. 92 00:04:59,160 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: Wow. 93 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: I went through a similar experience many years ago when 94 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: I first came across just the condo method, and I 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: had the exact same experience with my bookshelf. I'm a 96 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: collector of books, and I feel that there is it's 97 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: almost sacrilegious to get rid of a book like they're 98 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: so special. But yeah, going through that process of does 99 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: this book actually spark joy for me? Still many didn't, 100 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: so I can completely relate to that. 101 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: And it's such a good diagnostic too, because it really 102 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: makes salient what it is that you're doing at work. 103 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: And so many of my books were tied to a 104 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: previous life that I had and previous projects I was 105 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: focused on, and it really helped me see the transformation 106 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: that I had in terms of my own work, as 107 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: things that at one point were absolutely essential beyond just 108 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: joy sparking were relegated to the discard pile. 109 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: It's such a fascinating pro and my goodness, it feels 110 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 2: so good to cleanse a bookshelf like that. I remember 111 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: that feeling distinctly I want to shift gears and actually 112 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: talk about meetings. I think that's that was one of 113 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: my favorite chapters enjoy at work. And I can imagine 114 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: that as an academic you would have a lot of 115 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: meetings in your diary and probably a lot of committees 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: and things like that. 117 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: And I want to. 118 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: Know, like, how how did you go about tiding up 119 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: your meetings. Is this something you'd thought about before writing 120 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: the book, or is this maybe a process that you 121 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: went through, and maybe if you could describe how how 122 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: you tied it up your meetings. 123 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: I joined the faculty of Rice University in Houston, Texas 124 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: about fourteen years ago, and I was going to my 125 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: first faculty meeting, which had been a meeting I had 126 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: never been to before. And what really struck me is 127 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: how much time we just sat there, and you know, 128 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: we would fill up. It was an hour and a 129 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: half scheduled, and no matter or how big or small 130 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: of the issues we were supposed to talk about, we 131 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: always at least filled up that hour and a half. 132 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: And when we got this meeting invitation, we got the 133 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: meeting invitation for the monthly faculty meeting, so we had 134 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: these not during the summer, but we had nine of 135 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: these meetings during the year, and some of these meetings 136 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: would have really nothing substantive to talk about, but they 137 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: stayed on the schedule anyway, because well, we always had 138 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: a monthly faculty meeting. How can we not all gather 139 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: together as a faculty every month and talk about something 140 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: even if we had nothing really important to talk about. 141 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: And I'll give credit to our dean because we had 142 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: a new dean about a year before I got there, 143 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: and he realized, well, this is a really bizarre thing 144 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: to be doing. Why are we having a recurring meeting 145 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: when there's actually nothing relevant that we're talking about. And 146 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: we went down from nine meetings a year to three 147 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: meetings a year and basically the blink of an eye 148 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: and nothing was missed. And you just see, because so 149 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: many organizationations get into this habit of, well, we always 150 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: have the Monday morning meeting or the Friday afternoon meeting, 151 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: and if we cancel the meeting, it means then what 152 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: we're doing isn't important, or we haven't covered any work 153 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: this week, and so we start to think of meeting more, 154 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, beyond something that that's not just the place 155 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: where we do work, but it's a place that signals 156 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: something about who we are in our career, or what 157 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: we're doing, or our value. So as I was reflecting 158 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: about that experience and then reading the research, and there's 159 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: a rich body of research on meetings and organizational psychology, 160 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: and you see that not only do you have this 161 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: problem that meetings are just happening out of habit versus 162 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: out of need, but the way that those meetings are 163 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: being run are designed to just suck the time. 164 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 4: Out of us. 165 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: And that's why I think when you talk to most people, 166 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: you end up with this paradox where you know, you 167 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: ask them about about their meetings and they're like, oh, 168 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: I have too many meetings. You know, there's such a 169 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: waste of time. Yet the meetings themselves, in theory, should 170 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: be some of the most essential work that we do 171 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: because it allows us to collaborate and coordinate in ways 172 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: that are hard to do as individuals. So we have 173 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: this need for them, but we have this strong aversion 174 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: to them because we have far too many of them, 175 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: and the ones that we do have are also run 176 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: very poorly and disorganized. 177 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: So what did you do as a result of researching 178 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: for the book in terms of cleaning up your meetings, 179 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: because I guess there's one issue around the number of meetings. 180 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: And as you said, like I mean, Patkinson's law applies 181 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: really well to meetings in that if you set an 182 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: hour meeting, it's going to take an hour to discuss 183 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: the issues, whether you like it or not. And then 184 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: there's the issue of how do you actually use that 185 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: time effectively? So I want to I want to tackle 186 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: the first issue around how do you actually reduce the 187 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: number of meetings in your dari. 188 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's an important distinction we have in the 189 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: book between running a meeting and attending a meeting. And 190 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: let's talk about the attending a meeting because that's the 191 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: position that most people find themselves in where they get 192 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: invitations to go to things and some of them are required. 193 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: They're even the ones that are optional are sort of required, 194 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: and it might look bad if they don't go. So 195 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: the first thing that we do is you have to 196 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: really get a sense of what the problem looks like 197 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: and realize how much of your time are you actually 198 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: spending in meetings, because what happens is they take half 199 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: an hour on Monday, a couple of hours on Tuesday, 200 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: and they add up over time and you don't realize it. So, 201 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: just like when you're going through the con Marie method 202 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: and you're taking all of the clothes in your closet 203 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: and you're putting them in a big heap of a 204 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: pile on your bed and then going through each one 205 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: and realizing, I got thirty shirts. 206 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: I don't think I really need thirty shirts. 207 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: Do the same with your meetings, and I like to say, 208 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: put them on an index card and have each each 209 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: index card represent a meeting, and write down shortly in 210 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: a sentence what the purpose of the meeting is, and 211 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: then go through the same process metaphorically where you pick 212 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: up each index card. Then you ask yourself essentially three questions. One, 213 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: is going to this meeting really necessary? It might be 214 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: necessary because it's important for your job, or sometimes you're 215 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: just forced to go out of factors that are outside 216 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: of your control, and that's just the reality of many 217 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: people's jobs. So those are the meetings that you're going 218 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: to want to keep anyway. Secondly, you ask yourself, does 219 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: going to this meeting move me any closer to the 220 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: joyful future at work that I want My ideal work life. 221 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: Am I going to learn something? Is this meeting going 222 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: to build connection and foster relationships? Is it going to 223 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: advance my co So those are all good reasons to 224 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: keep going to a meeting. And then finally the third 225 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: question is does this meeting bring me more joy? And 226 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: there are some times when we get together as a group, 227 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people are feeling this 228 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: right now in the pandemic when social connection is much harder, 229 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: where you just want to go there for that connection 230 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: and that enrichment or that interaction, or these meetings are 231 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: so generative because they're sparking lots of ideas and creativity, 232 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: or you're accomplishing a lot of work, and those are 233 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: certainly meetings that you also want to keep. So you 234 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: go through these three keep criteria, and then you have 235 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: a pile of the meetings that you're going to keep 236 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: and then the ones that you're going to try to 237 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: go out of. And that's where some of the hard 238 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: work happens, because it's quite frankly, it's difficult to go 239 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: to a meeting organizer and say, well, you're not going 240 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: to say this meeting doesn't bring me joy, but you're 241 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: going to do it in more diplomatic ways, to try 242 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: and get out of the meetings and maybe talk about 243 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: how you don't feel like you have anything to contribute 244 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: to the meeting, and you know, a couple of things happened. 245 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: The meeting organizer might say, you know what, You're right, 246 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: the direction of this group and how we meet has 247 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: kind of evolved over time, and maybe you're not the 248 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: most relevant person. Or maybe the meeting organizer says to 249 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: you, you know what, maybe we've been underutilizing you and I 250 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: haven't realized that, you know, we could be running our 251 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: meeting in a different way, and maybe that brings you 252 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: joy and realizing that you're appreciated in ways that you 253 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: didn't realize. But you never get to these types of 254 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: conversations by just resigning yourself and defaulting to the meetings 255 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: on my calendar. 256 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: I have to keep it, yeah, and I think it's 257 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: I imagine it's probably a really challenging conversation for listeners 258 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: to have with their boss or the meeting organizer. I'm 259 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: lucky in that I don't have a boss, so I 260 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: guess I've got a bit of freedom there. But it 261 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: is challenging, like what have you've seen or heard from 262 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: readers in terms of what are like Aside from those 263 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: ways that you've mentioned, how else are they getting out 264 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: of meetings? 265 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: Like? 266 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: For example, I'm imagining a close girlfriend of mine who 267 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: works at one of the big banks here in Australia, 268 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: and I feel like her life is meetings zoom meetings 269 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: right now from eight am to six pm, sometimes later. 270 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 3: And I kind of. 271 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: I think about her when I think about that meetings 272 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: chapter actually, and I'm like, goodness, she needs to tidy 273 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: up her meetings. But how is she going to do 274 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: that because of all the politics that play in the bank. 275 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and politics are what really gets us into trouble. 276 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: And I think it actually starts with ourselves before we 277 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: even think about how we interact with other people. And 278 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is we have a sense 279 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: of meeting fomo, this fear of missing out that if 280 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: we don't have a seat at the table, it means 281 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: that we're not worthwhile, or we're going to miss out 282 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: on an important decision. Or the person who attends the 283 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: most meetings, they're the person who everyone thinks is working 284 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: the hardest, when the reality is is meetings are not 285 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: really a wave of score. They're a way of getting 286 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: work done, and if you're not getting work done in 287 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: a meeting, it's not worth going to. So I think 288 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: the first thing we need to do is just get 289 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: out of our head, of our sense of fear that 290 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: we're going to just miss out if we're not there 291 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: in either a decision or in terms of what other 292 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: people think of us, and realize that there's lots of ways. 293 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 4: Of making contributions. 294 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: And then the second thing to do is to then 295 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: start interacting with the meeting organizer and realize that you know, 296 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons, you might be asked to 297 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: go to this meeting that don't really make sense anymore. 298 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: Maybe you've always attended but the direction of the meeting 299 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: has changed, or maybe people feel like you want to 300 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: be involved when you don't need to be involved in 301 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: this specific aspect. 302 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 4: So what I like to tell people is start. 303 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: By asking for an agenda, and that's going to accomplish 304 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: a couple of things. The first is it's going to 305 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: start a dialogue. And that's what a lot of this 306 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: is is, because you're right that in a lot of 307 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: our work lives, we don't have control. We work for 308 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: other people, and we work with other people, and we 309 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: can't just decide to opt out. So when we ask 310 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: for an agenda, we start a conversation that allows us 311 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: to better evaluate whether or not this is really a 312 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: meeting truly worth going for. And if the meeting organizer 313 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: doesn't have an agenda, that's a pretty bad sign. And 314 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: you can politely ask back and say, well, would you 315 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: mind sending an agenda so I can better prepare. And 316 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: if they still can't give you that agenda, again, that's 317 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: a big red flag and you're going to want to 318 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: try and get out of that meeting. If they send 319 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: the agenda, though, and that agenda looks like, well, there's 320 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: not much I can contribute here, you can politely suggest, well, 321 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: maybe someone in this other group or this other area 322 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: of the company might be better suited for the meeting, 323 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: and here's why, and I'd recommend them, Or you can 324 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: simply say, you know, given the scope of knowledge and responsibilities, 325 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: I might not be the best fit for this, but 326 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: you know, help me understand maybe you're seeing something I'm not. 327 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: I'm happy to come if you feel like I have 328 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: a contribution, but help me understand how I can best 329 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: help and once we have these conversations, I think we 330 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: can kind of come to terms about those meetings that 331 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: are most helpful for us to go to. 332 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 2: I personally find that agenda strategy really helpful. Something that 333 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: we do with my team invent Him and I actually 334 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: got this trick from Brian Scrutemore, who's the co founder 335 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: and CEO of one eight hundred Got Junk, and I 336 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: interviewed him on the podcast quite a while ago, and 337 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: something that he does he has this thing at his 338 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: organization where he says all meetings have to have a 339 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: payer or a poet, which basically stands for purpose, agenda outcomes, 340 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: and he says, if there's no poet, it's no goer. 341 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 3: And so at. 342 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: Inventium, we've been playing around with this and we now 343 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: have a rule that if there's a meeting that involves 344 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: three or more people, the meeting organizer needs to like 345 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: the barrier to entry if you like to putting a 346 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: meeting in someone's diary, is that they need to specify 347 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: what's the purpose, agenda and desired outcomes from the meeting. 348 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: And we're reflecting on this at our team meeting yesterday 349 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 2: actually and kind of going it really has made us 350 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: stop and think before taking time from each other, because 351 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: it does take thought, and most people kind of put 352 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 2: a meeting in the diary, I find, which without actually 353 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: thinking too much about purpose, agenda and outcomes. 354 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so easy to go into outlook 355 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: and schedule a meeting. It's much harder to actually think 356 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: about what you want to accomplish in that meeting. So 357 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: these digital tools have really enabled the proliferation of meetings. 358 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: So certainly practices where organizers of meetings are required to 359 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: specify these things in advance with not only one I think, 360 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: cut down on a lot of unnecessary meetings, but too 361 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: it would help the meeting that you have run much 362 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: more effectively. 363 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: And of course, one of the things that happens in 364 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: a lot of useful meetings is that good decisions get made, 365 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: which is probably a good segue to decision making, because 366 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,239 Speaker 2: the area of decision making I find really fascinating as 367 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: a psychologist, and I also find fascinating that the success 368 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: of most people's career is in part due to how 369 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: good their decision making is. Yet most people are never 370 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: trained in how to make good decisions. And there's a 371 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: great chapter in the book about decision making, and I 372 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 2: want to know in your life, can you talk about 373 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: your process for making decisions? And also I guess categorizing 374 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: the different types of decisions that you make in your life. 375 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: So there's lots of different estimates about the number of 376 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: decisions that we make, and I quite frankly, I can't 377 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: count all of the decisions that I make, and that's 378 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: part of the problem that we have is just a 379 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: sense of decision overloads. So I like to recommend to 380 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: people is we've got to go through a sorting process first, 381 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: because there are just thousands of decisions that most people 382 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: are going to make on a daily basis, even though 383 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: studies show we really only remember about one hundred of them, 384 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: so we're not even conscious of a lot of decisions 385 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: that we make. So I like to segment decisions into, 386 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: you know, different levels of important. 387 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 4: So you've got. 388 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: Smaller low stakes decisions, medium steaks decisions, and high stakes decisions. 389 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: And I like to separate and say for the small decisions, 390 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: these are the ones that you either want to just 391 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: get them done and not think much about them. So 392 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, this is going to vary by the type 393 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: of job that you have. Naturally, but for me, for example, 394 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: the type of copy paper or printer paper I have, 395 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: or the type of font I use in a paper, 396 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: or the type of font I use in the PowerPoint presentation. 397 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: These are small stakes decisions for me. They are not 398 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: going to have a material impact on the quality or effectiveness. 399 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 4: Of my work, so I don't think about them. I just, 400 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 4: you know, defall to what I always do. 401 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: So I'm always going to write, for example in New 402 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: Times Roman, when I'm doing a word document. Those are 403 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: small decisions. In other types of context, you might want 404 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: to automate those decisions, so you know, even on a 405 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: personal level, A lot of my monthly purchases of supplies 406 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: for the house come through automatic subscription services, so I 407 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: don't have to think about what I need every month. 408 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: It just shows up at my door every month, so 409 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: I don't have to be burdened with an extra set 410 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: of decisions. Do I want to buy this? Do I 411 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: not want to buy that? It just happens automatically. So 412 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: I think the first part is to just cut down 413 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: because a majority of our decisions fall into those low 414 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: stakes decisions, so let's automate them, let's not think about them. 415 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: In some cases we might also gate them to those 416 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: who might derive more meaning or more satisfaction, or it's 417 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: more important for the type of job they have. Let 418 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: them make those decisions. Then you can focus on the 419 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: more important ones, the medium stakes and the high stakes decisions, 420 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: and you can dedicate your limited energy on trying to 421 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: make better decisions in those areas. 422 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 4: So that's the first step is. 423 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: Really the try and offload the small decisions, focus on 424 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: the medium and the large stakes decisions. The next step 425 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: is to then think about how are you going to 426 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: structure those decisions. And we have an intuition that you 427 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: give me more choices, I'm going to have a better 428 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: set of results. But there's actually a rich body in 429 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: the psychology literature about how choice can be really overwhelming 430 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: and can do some disruptive things to us. So one, 431 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: it takes more time to process through the choices. Tend 432 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: to be less satisfied when we have a lot of choices, 433 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: because we think about, well, I picked, I made this decision, 434 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: but I could have went the other way, and maybe 435 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: I have some regrets, and I have decision decision regret. 436 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: Maybe I didn't make the best choice, and you start 437 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: second guessing yourself so another part of my decision making 438 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: process is to try and whittle down choices. So if 439 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: someone comes to me and says, hey, I want your 440 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: your insight, and I want you to make a decision 441 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: about you know, whether or not you know where we 442 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: should for example, you know this have this class, what 443 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: type of room do we want? And I'm going to 444 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: always say, you know, I don't want five or more 445 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: room choices. Kind of give me what you think are 446 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: the three best choices for the class, and then I'll 447 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: make a decision from a more limited choice set. 448 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: So almost getting someone else to do the work for 449 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: you in part to get to that short list. 450 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: Well, you're having someone kind of whittle down the list, 451 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: so then you can focus on making the best choice 452 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: among a subsection of that list. 453 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 3: And what other strategies do you use? 454 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: I guess with those more important decisions that are more 455 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: high stakes, to make sure that you're making a good decision, 456 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: like I know, you know, certainly in org psychic literature 457 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: and I guess cognitive psychic literature, there's been what's written 458 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: about things like decision fatigue, and you know, the benefits 459 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 2: of activating the unconscious mind when making decisions. What are 460 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: some of the research findings that you tend to apply 461 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: for when you are making those high stakes decisions. 462 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: Well, certainly the unconscious mind helps a lot because we 463 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: do so much thinking outside of our deliberate thoughts, and 464 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: in many respects, we're more creative. So when I'm facing 465 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: kind of a decision that involves creativity, so it could 466 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: be around writing something, or how to present something, or 467 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: thinking of a research question, I like to take a 468 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: walk and I like to actually, counterintuitively not think about 469 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: the decision that I'm making. And this is hard for 470 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: people to grasp because they're like, well, you're not working, 471 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: then how are you actually going to make the decision? 472 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: And what people need to realize is that the brain 473 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: is still activated even when you're not thinking about something. 474 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: And what the research teaches us is that by doing 475 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: something that takes kind of a low level of cognitive activity, 476 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: that actually activates the brain to be thinking about more 477 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: important things separately. And I'll often find that at the 478 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: end of the walk, I have some type of epiphany 479 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: and I solve my problem, and it's almost like the 480 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: best of both worlds because I feel like I kind 481 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: of have a semblance of what to do, but I 482 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: also feel like I wasn't actually working, So I think 483 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: that's an important part, is certainly the subconscious aspect of it. 484 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: I think another thing that would really help, too, is 485 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: to recognize that, like, you know, as an academic, so 486 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: much of our work is like that last twenty percent, 487 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: and it's like, how do you how do you get 488 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: this thing exactly perfect? And you know, maybe when you're 489 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: trying to submit a research paper or you're writing a book, 490 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: you really want it to be perfect. But most of 491 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: the decisions that I make, and most of the decisions 492 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: that most people make, don't require that type of perfection. 493 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: And I think if we relax our standards and we 494 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: say okay for this decision, even though it's important, is 495 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: good enough going to be good enough? Do we need 496 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: to get to that perfection? And is it worth the 497 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: incremental effort to get that extra ten percent out of it? 498 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: And in most cases I would say it's probably not. 499 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,959 Speaker 1: So I think there's an importance of recognizing that in 500 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: many cases good enough or in kind of the decision 501 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: making world we talk about satisfying, that's a viable approach 502 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: for making these decisions, because otherwise we're just going to 503 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: burn out from all of these decisions, and later decisions 504 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: that we have to make aren't going to be as 505 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: effective because we've just run ourselves into the ground. 506 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: You mentioned that you'll sometimes go on a walk to 507 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 2: help let your unconscious mind ponder a decision, and I 508 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: remember you wrote in your book that you walk every day. 509 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: I guess it's almost like a daily ritual for you. 510 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: And I was wondering what purpose does that walk serve 511 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: for you? Like is it always to contemplate a decision 512 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: or a problem that you're trying to solve? And you know, 513 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: if I saw you on that walk, like you're going 514 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: on the same route, are you listening to any sound? 515 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: Like, tell me more about that walk and its purpose. 516 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: So it is daily and I'm almost always on the 517 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: same route. So that's one last decision I have to make. 518 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: I know, I'm going to walk out of my house. 519 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: I'm going to go left. I'm going to walk about 520 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: a mile and a half the same route and turn around. 521 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm not listening to anything. I want my head clear, 522 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: but I am not always intentional in terms of at 523 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: the end of this walk, I need to figure this out. 524 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: Puts a lot of pressure on me and the walk 525 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: for me, I mean, it's it's generative and it helps 526 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: come up with ideas, but it's also just inherently joyful 527 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: for me, and I don't want to lose sight of 528 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: that by imposing upon demands that every time I walk, 529 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: I need to solve a big problem. That's just going 530 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: to suck the joy out of out of doing that. 531 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: So I'll follow the same route. I won't listen to music. 532 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 1: I'm just going to let my mind wander, and in 533 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: many cases it's going to solve a pretty important problem, 534 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 1: or it's going to give me an idea, or it's 535 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: going to give me some type of insight. But I 536 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: don't have the expectation that that's going to happen every time. 537 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 3: Hmm. 538 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: That's interesting that that expectation. And do you like do 539 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: you schedule the walk? 540 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 3: Is it? Is it almost like a meeting with yourself 541 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 3: and your diary or is it like kind of less 542 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 3: less formal than that. 543 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: It's it's less formal, but habitually it's almost always in 544 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: the mornings because that's when I feel like I can 545 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: I just have the time to get out. I wake 546 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: up before everyone else in my household. Everyone's asleep. I 547 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: don't need to be anywhere. I don't need to drive 548 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: anyone anywhere. 549 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 4: So it's in terms. 550 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: Of the flow of my day that structure works best 551 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: for me. And especially in the summer here, which it 552 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: is in Houston right now, if you don't get out 553 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: before the sun really comes out, it's pretty hot. 554 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 3: Yes, I can imagine. I can imagine. 555 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: And I noticed when I was researching for this interview 556 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: that you wrote a paper a few years ago about 557 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: the relationship between routines and creativity, which I think, you know, 558 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: two things that a lot of people wouldn't think go 559 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 2: hand in hand. And I was wondering, like, what, like, 560 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: are there other daily. 561 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 3: Or even weekly rituals that you have to you. 562 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: Know, drive creativity and even productivity in your own life 563 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: that you feel serve you. 564 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 3: Well. 565 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean in terms of in terms of 566 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: daily rituals, I do like to do a daily gratitude practice. 567 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,239 Speaker 1: It's a practice that really is me the opportunity to 568 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: thank someone or something in my day. Now, whether or 569 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: not that drives productivity, I think is a is a 570 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: separate question. It certainly puts me in a good headspace 571 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: and allows me to be thankful for what I have 572 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: or what I've been able to do, So I mean, 573 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: that's certainly important. 574 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 4: But the idea generally of. 575 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: Routines sparking creativity is is this idea that even when 576 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: we do things on a repeated basis, So you were 577 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: saying to me earlier, do you always follow the same route? 578 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: And my answer was yes, But in some senses my 579 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: answers no, because when I'm on that route, I'm going 580 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: to be interacting with. 581 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 4: Different types of objects. 582 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: There's going to be different types of cars I'm going 583 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: to pass, or you know, I pass a cyclist or 584 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: a pedestrian, or you know, the sun is going to 585 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: come up at different times of the day, And that's 586 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: the aspect that allows us to keep doing things similarly 587 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: but also in different ways, because every time we implement 588 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: a routine, even though it seems like the same pattern 589 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: of action, there are these things that we're interacting within 590 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: the environment that make it different. And it's those differences 591 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: that interact with the familiar that we're constantly doing that 592 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: is really the nexus of creativity and generating creativity. So 593 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: if you find yourself in this kind of stuck in 594 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: this rut where you're always doing the same routine. Pay 595 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: attention to when you implement that routine a couple of 596 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: times in the week, and you're going to realize, even 597 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: though from kind of a ten thousand foot view it 598 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: looks like the same thing, it's very different and you're 599 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: having to make minor adjustments. And those adjustments are one 600 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: the creative process, but two also might kind of shake 601 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: you in ways that help generate creative ideas for other things. 602 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: And I think that's why during my walks, not only 603 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: is just letting my mind wander help, but it's just 604 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: kind of having some sense of stability in doing the 605 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: same thing, but doing that same thing differently. That allows 606 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: that low cognitive activation that's really shown by the research 607 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: to be such a well spring of new ideas. 608 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: That's such a nice way of looking at it. I 609 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: also have a pretty similar walking route that I'll go 610 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: on most days, and I've never thought about. 611 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 3: It like that. I really like the way you phrased that. 612 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: Something in the book that I found interesting. 613 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: Obviously started this interview by talking about the physical cleanup, 614 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: but there's a whole section around doing a digital cleanup, 615 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 2: which I think is really interesting, and I would imagine 616 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: there are probably a lot of listeners of the show 617 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: whose digital life. 618 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: Is quite clattered. 619 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: And I want to start with the mobile phone actually 620 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: or the cell phone. And you talk about doing a 621 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 2: digital cleanup of the phone in the book. 622 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 3: Can you talk about, like, when you started writing this book, 623 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 3: what did your phone look like? 624 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: Did you have a clean phone or was this something 625 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: that you personally, you know, kind of went through as 626 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: you're writing and researching this. 627 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: Book now you call it me? My phone was a mess, 628 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: just like my office. You know, I had just a 629 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: lot of apps. I mean just a ton of apps 630 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: because I felt prey to what a lot of people 631 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: feel prey to, which is it's so easy and tempting 632 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: to download the latest app, but who wants to bother 633 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: deleting it when you stop using it? And what I've 634 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: come to learn is that those apps that are just 635 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: dormant on your phone, they're not benign. I mean it's 636 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: more than just the space they're taking up. I mean, 637 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: space is really not That's what really makes the digital 638 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: world so much different than the physical world. Space is 639 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: almost limitless in many respects. What it is is it's 640 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: the constant nagging and the notifications and the beeping and 641 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: the chirping and just the screaming for attention that these 642 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: things are doing to you. And you might not be 643 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: using them, but there's still there's still very needy creatures. 644 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: And so even though we tend to not want to, 645 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, not take the time to purge these things, 646 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,919 Speaker 1: leaving them on cost us more time in productivity. Some 647 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: research shows that it could take as much as twenty 648 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: six minutes to recover from an interruption from an email 649 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: notification or even an app notification, because what happens is 650 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: that interruption takes us off of our cognitive path, we 651 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: respond to it, and then it takes a while for 652 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: us to reacclimate and get into that same mental space 653 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: that we were in before. So the more apps that 654 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: you have on your phone, the more chances for distraction, 655 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: the more chances for interruption, and the more chances to 656 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: take you away from what you really want to be doing. 657 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 2: So what process did you go through then to clean 658 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 2: up your phone? 659 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 4: Right? 660 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: So this one, this one is pretty pretty straightforward for me, 661 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: is I have a sense of these are the apps 662 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: that I use the most, and let me go through 663 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: every single app and ask myself is it worth keeping? 664 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 4: And if it wasn't. 665 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: I can discard it, but there's more extreme things you 666 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: can do. If you're struggling with this. You can go 667 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: ahead and delete every single app off of your phone 668 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: and then only reinstall the ones that you use. So 669 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: the default is I'm just going to get rid of everything, 670 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: and then are you going to take the time to 671 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: redownload the app? And if you feel like, oh, that 672 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of work, I don't want to 673 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: redownload the app, that's a sign that you probably don't want. 674 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 4: That app anyway. 675 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: And so that's kind of a more extreme way of 676 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: doing that. 677 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 2: I feel like I had a visceral reaction to doing that, 678 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: but then I thought, actually, I know that would be 679 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 2: quite exciting. It reminds me. I've had Jake Nap on 680 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 2: the show a couple of times, the co author of 681 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: Sprint and Make Time, and I remember in one of 682 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: our chats he talks about the concept of trying to 683 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: make your phone boring and kind of distraction free, so 684 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 2: essentially not having any apps that have an infinity scroll 685 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: on them, which I adopted that probably a year or 686 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 2: two ago, something like that, and so I only have 687 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 2: utility apps on my home screen. And I don't really 688 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 2: have any apps that I guess could be classed as addictive. 689 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: I'm curious if I looked at the home screen of 690 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: your phone, Scott, would what would I see? 691 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: You would see email app, you would see a Microsoft 692 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: Word app. You would see Twitter, you would see Instagram, 693 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: you would see a web browser app, and a couple 694 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: more things. I don't have my phone in front of me, 695 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: otherwise I would look at it and tell you. But 696 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: that's another trick that I'd like to do with the phone, 697 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,439 Speaker 1: which is just don't have the thing around and it's 698 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: not going to nagage you no matter what's on it. 699 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 4: So my phone is on the other side of the 700 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 4: house right now. 701 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: Ah, that's that's a very novel. And I want to 702 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 2: know about email as well. You talk about email in 703 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,959 Speaker 2: the book, and I'm always really keen to delve into 704 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: people's workflow around email. 705 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 3: So can you tell me? 706 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: Well, I guess to start with, how did you clean 707 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 2: up your email? 708 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 3: Again? 709 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: Like, was your email looking like your phone and your office? 710 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 2: Was it completely full of clutter? Or well you will 711 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: you cleaner with your email prior to embarking on this book. 712 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, email was not as bad as as some of 713 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: the other areas of clutter. I've had always a pretty 714 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: good handle on email and kind of keeping things pretty 715 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: neat and organized. And you know my philosophy on emails. Well, 716 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: first is I think there's the caveat that what the 717 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: research tells us about email is no matter how much 718 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: evidence you give to someone that there's a better way 719 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: of doing email, it is so hard to get them 720 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: to change because people are so intent on you know, 721 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: their system, their system works. So getting people to change 722 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 1: their minds about email is pretty difficult. 723 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 3: Just about that, like, why why is that? 724 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: Is it because it's just another example of why people 725 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: have really ingrained habits, or is there something specific about 726 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 2: email that makes it hard to change people's behavior. 727 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's I mean, I think it's the 728 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: ingrained habit that then gets exacerbated by the fact that 729 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: we spend so much time on email, so it becomes 730 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: such a learned pattern about this is the way that 731 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: I do things. And then I think there's also just 732 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: a sense that making the change on email, unlike the 733 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,240 Speaker 1: other categories we talk in the book, takes a lot 734 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: more work, and there's the sense that you know, I'm 735 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: just going to try and keep going, and the clutter 736 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: and email is accumulative. It's not like when you change jobs, 737 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: for example, that you know you kind of leave behind 738 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,760 Speaker 1: all of your email. I mean maybe you leap behind 739 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: some of it, or you change computers. I mean you 740 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: take that with you in your entire life. And some people, 741 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, have an email inbox that might go back decades, 742 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: you know, when email first first came out. So I 743 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: think that's the challenge that people have. So what we 744 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: wanted to do in this chapter is really give people 745 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: the sense that it doesn't have to be overwhelming, and 746 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: we're kind of giving you a break because in a 747 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: lot of the other categories, it's really about going through 748 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: each item and asking, you know, those three questions of 749 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: is it necessary, does it create a joyful future? 750 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 4: Is it something that inherently sparks joy with email? 751 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: I mean that could take some people, I mean, quite 752 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: frankly a year. There's a guide by the name of 753 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: I think Joey Mansala who has the Guinness World Record 754 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: that I think four point two million emails in his inbox. 755 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: So that's that's a lot of email to go through, 756 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: and we certainly, I don't need to be that extreme 757 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: to realize that we have a problem. So I think 758 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: that's the first thing is to recognize that it doesn't 759 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: have to be you know, you've got to go through 760 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: every single email you can. 761 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 4: You know, for example, take you can do a complete 762 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 4: do over and take. 763 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: If you've got everything in your email box in your inbox, 764 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: just dump it into an archive folder that remains searchable, 765 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: so at least you have a clean inbox, and that 766 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: when you turn on your computer when you're starting work 767 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: in the morning, you don't first just look at a 768 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: screen with an infinite scroll and saying, oh my gosh, 769 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: this feels so overwhelming. 770 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 4: I don't know where to begin. 771 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 1: So just you know, if we can take even smaller 772 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: steps to get to the sense and send signals to 773 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: ourselves that you. 774 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 4: Know, we can have a handle on this. 775 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: So I think kind of where people start is really 776 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 1: kind of just providing a foundation that says, Okay, I've 777 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: got this problem under control. 778 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 4: I feel like I have control over my work. 779 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: For some people, you know, with a more manageable number 780 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: of emails in your inbox, that could mean literally going 781 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: through through a couple of hundred of emails and deciding 782 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: do I delete this, or do I keep this? And 783 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: if I keep it, which folder do I put it in? 784 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: And for folders we say about ten folders. Otherwise you 785 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: have all this extra work of does it go in 786 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: this folder, does it go in that folder? Where do 787 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: I find it? But you know, kind of don't be 788 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: averse to hitting the delete key. There's a lot of 789 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: messages that we don't need. Some of them we have 790 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: to keep because our jobs require it, or we need 791 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: it for archival purposes, but a. 792 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 4: Lot of them we don't need to keep. 793 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: And we want to kind of build off of that 794 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: foundation of a clean inbox and then have a system 795 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: where for me, a few times a day I'll be 796 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: on email, I try and batch my email. 797 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 4: I'm going to try and. 798 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: Treat my inbox like I would a desk. It's a workspace. 799 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: It's things that I'm currently working on. I'm not going 800 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,760 Speaker 1: to leave stuff in there from three years ago because 801 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want to process it. That's going to be processed, 802 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: and as soon as I'm done with something, I delete 803 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: it or I decide it's going to go into a 804 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: handful folders, and I'll put it in those in those folders. 805 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to be the type of person. 806 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: These are what I would call the frequent flyers out there, 807 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: who you know, the phone goes off, the outlook notification 808 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: goes off, it's like, oh my gosh, I. 809 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 3: Got us bring into action. 810 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 4: You know, I can't have this in my inbox. It's 811 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 4: gonna I'm gonna. 812 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: Read it, I'm going to respond to it, and it's 813 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: going to be sorted in one of one hundred folders. 814 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: Like that's just that's just a waste of time, right, 815 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: I mean, we've got pretty good search functions, And again 816 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: we go back to that twenty six minute statistic of 817 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: every time you're going to interrupt yourself with something like that, 818 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: you're going to just not have the space to be 819 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: able to think about more important things. 820 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 4: So try and batch your emails into a few sittings. 821 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 3: I know that there's good research out there to suggest 822 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 3: batching it. 823 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 2: It's certainly something that we suggest to our clients that inventium, 824 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 2: But in terms of applying or using the will power 825 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 2: to actually do that, it's just so tempting to go 826 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 2: into your inbox and you know, kind of be lulled 827 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 2: into that sort of almost fake set of progress and 828 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 2: get the very pleasant dopamine hits from deleting things and 829 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 2: responding to things like how how do you resist the 830 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 2: temptation and actually apply a real batching strategy to email? 831 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: Well, I think the first thing is you take away 832 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: the temptation as much as you can. So, whether it's 833 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: silencing notifications or not having your email program. 834 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 4: Open so you don't see what you're missing. 835 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of it, because I 836 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: think you're right, it's very tempting for people to want 837 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 1: to respond to that email right away, not only because 838 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: they get the immediate high of feeling like, Okay, I 839 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: did something and I'm on top of this and it 840 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: looks like I'm, you know, working really hard because I'm 841 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: being responsive. I mean, those are those are those are 842 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 1: challenges in and of themselves. 843 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 4: But we also tend to. 844 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: Mistakenly believe that email is our work and that if 845 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: we're not emailing, we're not working, and it becomes a 846 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: distraction to actually do the work that we're supposed to 847 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: be doing. So I think we need to realize that 848 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: there's a lot at stake here. We can literally lose 849 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: the entire day by constantly interrupting ourselves every twenty five 850 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: minutes when an email comes in and responding to it, 851 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: because it's going to take twenty five minutes or so 852 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: for us to get back to where we left off. 853 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: And then we get to the end of the day 854 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: and we get this feeling like, gosh, I'm really worn down. 855 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:25,879 Speaker 4: I feel like I'm working so much. 856 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: But you know what, I didn't really accomplish anything on 857 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: my projects. But wait, look at my inbox. It's completely empty. 858 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 4: I feel good. 859 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 1: I mean, most people don't feel good about that, but 860 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: that's the pattern that they end up living. 861 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,399 Speaker 3: That's so true, so true. 862 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 2: And one final question about the whole world of digital 863 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 2: clean up. In the book, you talk about a spark 864 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 2: joy folder on your desktop, which I thought was such 865 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 2: a lovely idea. 866 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 3: Can you tell me about that? 867 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, in my profession, we are just constantly criticized. 868 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: We are criticized, and we get feedback when we submit manuscripts, 869 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: and we have these anonymous reviewers who are telling us 870 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: how bad our work is, even if it's eventually gets published, 871 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: or just because bad information is more salient and feels 872 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 1: more real than good information. You know, the one bad 873 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: comment on your teaching evaluation, you're always going to remember that. 874 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 1: So for me, I wanted a way of just reminding 875 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 1: myselves of all of the joy that I get from 876 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 1: my work when we're just faced with a barrage of 877 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: negative criticism, which you know, at the end makes your 878 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: work better and it's a pathway to learn and to grow, 879 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: but it's also, let's just face it, it's emotionally exhausting 880 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: to be constantly told, you know, do this better or 881 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: do that better. So I have a folder on my 882 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: desktop and it's where I'll put a rotating bunch of 883 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: items that spark joy. It could be a family photo, 884 00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: it could be a paper I recently published, or am 885 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: from a speaking host who you know gave me praise 886 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: on something I did, or a positive teaching evaluation. 887 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 4: And I'll go into that folder, usually at least once 888 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 4: a day, and just. 889 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,399 Speaker 1: Read a couple of things in that folder and feel 890 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: good about whether it is that I've that I've been 891 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: able to. 892 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 4: Do that is so good. 893 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 2: I love that as a strategy. I'm definitely going to 894 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 2: be adopting that one. It's Scott, look we are we're 895 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 2: pretty much out of time. I feel like this has 896 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 2: flown by it, at least for me. I've loved this chat, 897 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,400 Speaker 2: and I want to know for people that want to 898 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,760 Speaker 2: consume more of your work, read more of what you're writing, 899 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 2: what is the best way for people to do that. 900 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: So my website is Scottsumenscheine dot com and that's s 901 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: c O T T s O N E N s 902 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: H E I N dot com and on that you 903 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: can learn more about Joy at Work. You can learn 904 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: more about my other book, which is called which is 905 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: a book about the science of doing more with less, 906 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: as well as download a bunch of articles that I've 907 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 1: written that take some of these ideas and apply them 908 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: in different contexts. They've got a lot of stuff right now. 909 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: I work from home given the situation that the world 910 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,320 Speaker 1: is in, and so all those stuff are downloadable on 911 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: the site. 912 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 3: Fantastic. 913 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,360 Speaker 2: I will link to that in the show notes, and 914 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 2: definitely for anyone listening that is not already thinking I 915 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 2: have to read Joy at Work. 916 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 3: I loved it. 917 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 2: It's just so practical, so well researched, and just so 918 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 2: incredibly helpful. So Scott, it's been an absolute pleasure to 919 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 2: have you on the show. 920 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for your time, and thank you 921 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 4: so much for the conversation. 922 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 3: Hello there, That is it for today's show. 923 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,800 Speaker 2: If you liked this episode and maybe someone's coming to 924 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 2: mind who's got a bit of mess in their working life, 925 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 2: maybe lots of meetings or crazy out of control inbox, 926 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 2: you might want to share this episode with them by 927 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 2: clicking the little share icon wherever you listen to this podcast, 928 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 2: and if you're enjoying How I Work, I would love 929 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 2: it if you could leave a review in Apple Podcasts 930 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 2: or wherever you're listening to this from. Uh, it's really 931 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 2: awesome getting listener feedback, so thank you to the hundreds 932 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 2: of people who have done just that. 933 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 3: So that's it for today and I'll see you next time.