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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now we see that our kids are depressed, we don't

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Speaker 2: need to fix it. We don't need to make them

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Speaker 2: all better. We don't need to try to drag them

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Speaker 2: out of that depression. But what we do need to

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Speaker 2: do is understand why they're thinking.

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Speaker 1: Sticks And now here's the stars of our show, my

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Speaker 1: mum and Dad.

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Speaker 2: It's Mental Health Awareness Month today. This is Justin and Kylie.

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Speaker 2: We are the parents of six kids. I'm the founder

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Speaker 2: of Happy Families dot com, dot a you, and this

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Speaker 2: is the Happy Families Podcast. All this month, we're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking about issues related to mental health, mental

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Speaker 2: health our children, mental health of us as adults, and

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Speaker 2: all things related to inside and outside of mental health

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Speaker 2: and how it relates to our well being. Today a

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Speaker 2: conversation about depression. We're going to speak specifically about kids

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Speaker 2: and depression, although I think that you'll find that there's

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of overlap between the things we're talking

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Speaker 2: about with our children and even the experience of depression

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Speaker 2: that we have as adults. But because it's Mental Health

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Speaker 2: Awareness Month, and because depression is such a common and

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Speaker 2: prevalent mood disorder. It needs to be talked about well.

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Speaker 3: Since mental health is something that every single one of

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Speaker 3: us will have either experienced personally or with people that

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Speaker 3: we love, I think it's a really good opportunity for

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Speaker 3: us to actually take a look at what depression looks like,

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Speaker 3: especially in our kids, because it looks different for different people, right.

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Speaker 2: It does. And quite often I'll hear people say, oh,

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Speaker 2: my child's depressed or I'm depressed, and they're not actually depressed,

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Speaker 2: that they're sad. There's a big difference between being sad

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Speaker 2: and having depression. I mean, you can actually be depressed

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Speaker 2: and not have depression. Depression as a mental illness is specific,

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Speaker 2: it's diagnosable, and it's different to having a bad day

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Speaker 2: or feeling miserable, being exhausted and stressed and tired.

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Speaker 3: Well, and then you hear the stories of people. You

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Speaker 3: look at someone like Robin Williams, the comedian the laughter

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Speaker 3: that the room, and yet was deeply, deeply depressed. And

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Speaker 3: so it's gonna look different for different people. So what

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Speaker 3: is the difference between having say a depressive episode or

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Speaker 3: having a bad, lousy day or week and full blown

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Speaker 3: depression how do we know compartmentalize it.

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Speaker 2: So there are three different things here. The first thing

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Speaker 2: that I would say is kids, grown ups, all of us.

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Speaker 2: We all have days where we're cranky, or we're tired,

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Speaker 2: or we think negatively. I mean, I had a day

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Speaker 2: the other day where I walked into the room and

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm sick of it, I'm getting it all wrong.

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Speaker 2: Then I'm tired of being a parent, I'm really bad

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Speaker 2: as a husband, and I'm just I'm over it all.

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Speaker 2: And I walked out of the room. And that doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that I've got depression, but right there and then

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Speaker 2: I was angry, and I was frustrated, and I was tired,

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Speaker 2: and I was stressed, and I was really really sad.

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Speaker 2: You could even say that I was depressed. My mood

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Speaker 2: was depressed. I was feeling horrible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And then what happens when that goes on for

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Speaker 3: a week.

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Speaker 2: Right, So the difference between having a bad day and

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Speaker 2: feeling sad or blue or low or frustrated and having

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Speaker 2: a depressive episode is where we have a sustained period

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Speaker 2: where thinking is stinking. So we have that catastrophic kind

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Speaker 2: of thinking, that awful thinking all the time about ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Always happens to me, nobody loves me?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, the all or nothing kind of thinking, the pervasive,

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Speaker 2: permanent personal kind of thinking. That's that's a sign that

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Speaker 2: we might be slipping into what you could call a

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Speaker 2: depressive episode, So not just feeling lousy, but actually having

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Speaker 2: this sustained period where that's going on and behavior sinks

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Speaker 2: with it or becomes more erratic or becomes more volatile,

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Speaker 2: and mood is low. Once we experience a depressive episode,

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Speaker 2: we definitely know the difference between that short term, I'm

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Speaker 2: having a lousy day or a lousy night or a

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Speaker 2: lousie whatever, and I'm actually feeling depressed. But even if

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Speaker 2: you're having a depressive episode for a few days, maybe

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Speaker 2: even a week, could even be two weeks, where you're

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Speaker 2: just in a slump and it's sustained, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: you've got depression. So there's a depressed day, there's a

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Speaker 2: depressive episode, and then you've got a diagnosis of clinical depression.

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Speaker 2: And the difference ultimately, if your child is depressed, or

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Speaker 2: even if you are depressed, you're more often than not,

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Speaker 2: over a sustained period of time, having negative feelings about

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Speaker 2: yourself or your situation or the future, and it's really

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Speaker 2: about that sustained period of time. For adults, most psychologists

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Speaker 2: won't diagnose depression unless it's been going on for a

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Speaker 2: minimum of six months. Now. I know some sychs will say, oh,

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Speaker 2: with kids, it's a shorter period, But we really I

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Speaker 2: want to I was going to say, we really want

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Speaker 2: to see this happening long term, but we don't want

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Speaker 2: to see it happening at all. But if we're going

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Speaker 2: to give a clinical diagnosis of depression, then we want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that this is an ongoing and sustained thing.

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Speaker 2: The most important thing for us as parents is to

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Speaker 2: get in early. Like, if we see that our kids

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Speaker 2: are depressed, we don't need to fix it. We don't

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Speaker 2: need to make them all better. We don't need to

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Speaker 2: try to drag them out of that depression. But we

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Speaker 2: we do need to is understand why they're thinking stinks,

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Speaker 2: or why their mood is so lower, why their behavior

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Speaker 2: is subdued or erratic or volatile. And if we can

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Speaker 2: understand what's going on in the environment, then we can

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Speaker 2: start to move away from fears of a clinical depression diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: because that starts to get really serious. Those ingrained patterns

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Speaker 2: of thinking and behaving. They can become much more entrenched

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Speaker 2: over time. We want to get in nice and early,

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Speaker 2: and psychological help is available to really make a big

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Speaker 2: difference there.

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Speaker 3: So what are the signs that we're looking for in

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Speaker 3: our children if we are concerned about depression playing a

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Speaker 3: part in there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'd say there's a handful of things. First off,

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Speaker 2: they're going to seem sad and unhappy most of the time,

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Speaker 2: and that's different to being sad or unhappy today. But

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Speaker 2: if it's today and tomorrow, on the day after and

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Speaker 2: the day after and next week and even next month,

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Speaker 2: and there's this sustained period of sadness, unhappiness, misery, would

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Speaker 2: you put apathy in Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. So

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Speaker 2: we could call that apathy or a motivation. So the

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Speaker 2: pat h the pathy side of things. We use that

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Speaker 2: mpath idea or pathological the patch that revolves around what's

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Speaker 2: going on insider. So if we have apathy, the a

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Speaker 2: means that it's missing, it's not there at all, so

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Speaker 2: there's nothing emotional, there's nothing happening at all inside. So

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Speaker 2: apathy is also a really big warning sign that, especially

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Speaker 2: sustained apathy over time that we've got a childhood may

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Speaker 2: be depressed if they're aggressive, having a lot of temper tantrums,

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Speaker 2: big outbursts, volatile with their moods, and then subdued and

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Speaker 2: don't want to leave their room, if they're afraid or

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Speaker 2: worried all the time, if they're having those psychosomatic symptoms

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Speaker 2: like my tummy hurts or my legs hurt or my

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Speaker 2: arm's hurt. If they're always saying things that are negative

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Speaker 2: about themselves. I'm no good, everybody hates me. I can't

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Speaker 2: do it. It's too hard. So you're seeing that subdued energy.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to be around anyone. Like I said,

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Speaker 2: they were drawing to their room. They're not finding joy

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Speaker 2: in things that they used to find joy in, whether

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Speaker 2: it's eating or activities. Often you find somebody who's depressed

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Speaker 2: will have sleep issues. Usually with kids, they'll sleep too much,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes they can't sleep at all, or they have nightmares.

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Speaker 2: It's those kinds of things, and then you'll see school

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Speaker 2: performance drop as well, because when you're feeling lousy socially,

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Speaker 2: and you're feeling lousy emotionally, and you're feeling lousy in

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Speaker 2: all of the ways, then why would you bother trying

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Speaker 2: it all? So they're your biggest warning signals.

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Speaker 3: So, as a parent, if I am watching over a

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Speaker 3: sustained period of time these kinds of symptoms showing up

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Speaker 3: in my child, can I do anything like can I

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Speaker 3: help them get through this? Or is this something that

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Speaker 3: they're going to have to ride through and need a

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Speaker 3: psychologist to kind of work them through.

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Speaker 2: It's a really tricky one because we do know that

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Speaker 2: there are things that work to reduce the symptoms of depression.

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Speaker 2: The best thing psychologically is to get cognitive behavioral therapy.

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Speaker 2: What's really going on with depression is we are experiencing

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Speaker 2: what you might call cognitive distortions. There's a whole list

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Speaker 2: of cognitive distortions that are going on where there's this awfulizing, atastrophizing.

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Speaker 2: There's the all or nothing thinking. There's predicting the future,

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Speaker 2: fortune telling, but it's always with a negative slant. There's

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Speaker 2: the mind reading where we think we know what everyone's

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Speaker 2: thinking about us and saying about us, even though we've

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Speaker 2: got no idea what's going on in their minds. There's

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Speaker 2: all those they're cognitive distortions and cognitive behavioral therapy with

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Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist or in fact even any registered psychologists

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Speaker 2: and even many counselors can work really well with somebody

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Speaker 2: on those CBT practices to shift the cognitive distortions. But

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Speaker 2: you don't have to have a psych degree or a

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Speaker 2: council and degree. You don't even have to be a medico.

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Speaker 2: You can just be a parent who cares about your

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Speaker 2: kids and do a range of things that can help

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Speaker 2: your kids to get through these subdued moods and these

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Speaker 2: depressive episodes in really effective, really caring ways, probably worth

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Speaker 2: spending a few minutes on those. I've just made a

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Speaker 2: list while we've been talking. I've got eight, eight really

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Speaker 2: quick things that i can talk about that can be

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Speaker 2: really helpful.

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Speaker 3: Well, what summer one?

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Speaker 2: You know what, I just thought of a night thing,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to make that number one because I

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Speaker 2: can't help myself. I'm so sorry. But here's what I

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Speaker 2: want to emphasize. I use this metaphor a lot in

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Speaker 2: my presentations. I might have even shared it on the

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Speaker 2: podcast before, and that is that an emotion or a

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Speaker 2: mood is like a train going through a tunnel. So

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Speaker 2: when the train goes into the tunnel, especially if we're

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Speaker 2: talking about a dark kind of mood, like depression, everything

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Speaker 2: goes dark, everything goes black, and you end up deep

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Speaker 2: inside the tunnel. And what we do as parents is

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Speaker 2: we say, oh no, the train's in a tunnel. That is,

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Speaker 2: we're going through this big emotional moment, and my job

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Speaker 2: is to rescue my child. I need to pull out

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Speaker 2: the earth moving equipment. I need to dig down through

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Speaker 2: the top of the mountain and make a great big

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Speaker 2: hole and pull the train out and bring it back

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Speaker 2: into the daylight. That's kind of what we try to

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Speaker 2: do with our kids when they're having those big, deep,

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Speaker 2: dark emotions. And yet, if we simply sit with our

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Speaker 2: child and say you're like a train in a tunnel,

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Speaker 2: but trains always come out of the tunnel eventually, what

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Speaker 2: that does actually takes the pressure off our child. It

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Speaker 2: means that they don't have the feeling that, oh no,

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Speaker 2: there's something wrong with me. It normalizes the emotion.

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Speaker 3: You're kind of suggesting. It's an acceptance right where you

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Speaker 3: are right now is where you are, and it's okay.

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Speaker 2: Fighting against it only deepens and further entrenches it. Now,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that we just want to accept that

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Speaker 2: we've got a child who's depressed, and we're just going

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Speaker 2: to let them stay in the tunnel for the next

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Speaker 2: six months while they work through the depression. There are

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Speaker 2: things that we can do, but it's the acceptance that

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Speaker 2: allows us to move into the next eight ideas that

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Speaker 2: I've got that help us to move our children forward.

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Speaker 3: As I've experienced personally some depressive episodes over the years,

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Speaker 3: it's only been recently that I've recognized just how important

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Speaker 3: just being kind to myself and accepting that I'm just

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Speaker 3: feeling this way now, but it's not the way it's

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Speaker 3: going to be forever. Yeah, has made such a difference

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Speaker 3: in me being able to move through it a lot

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Speaker 3: quicker than it was back in the day, where I

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Speaker 3: was just berating myself all the time because it couldn't

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Speaker 3: work out why I felt the way I did when

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Speaker 3: I had such a blessed life, I had so much

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Speaker 3: to be grateful for, and yet I just felt like

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Speaker 3: everything was too hard.

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Speaker 2: A little bit of self compassion. So the first thing

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Speaker 2: is just just be accepting, because that means that you'll

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Speaker 2: be able to move on with some more proactive strategies.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't mean acceptance is well I'll shrug my shoulders and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: if you depressed, you to press that, I'm just going

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Speaker 2: to leave you be in your bedroom. That's not what

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Speaker 2: it is. It's about sitting with the child and saying

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Speaker 2: it's dark here, isn't it, And it's okay. We all

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Speaker 2: have these times. It's not an unusual part of being

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Speaker 2: human to feel like this, And I'm here for you.

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Speaker 2: So you're talking to You've talked about self compassion for

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Speaker 2: you as an adult, but for a child, we're showing compassion.

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Speaker 2: We're sitting there in their suffering, and we're suffering with

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Speaker 2: them because then we can say it. So, now that

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Speaker 2: we know that this is normal, there's a handful of

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Speaker 2: things that we could talk about. Help. Let's talk about

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Speaker 2: those things. Are you open to that? And what you

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Speaker 2: find is because of the acceptance and the compassion, your

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Speaker 2: child's more likely to say, yeah, yeah, actually I am

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Speaker 2: open to it because you're not making me feel bad

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Speaker 2: for feeling bad.

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Speaker 3: So what's number two?

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Speaker 2: Number two? Which was number one? It's just breathe, literally,

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Speaker 2: just breathe, and if you can breathe outside so nature.

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Speaker 2: I say this all the time. It's my favorite thing

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Speaker 2: to say about being outside nature is fuel for the soul.

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Speaker 2: And when you're feeling lousy, seeing a sunset or sunrise,

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Speaker 2: or sitting in a park and looking at the trees

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Speaker 2: or the clouds, or sitting on the beach and watching

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Speaker 2: the waves rolling in, or actually getting active in nature.

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Speaker 2: There's just something incredible about breathing and being in nature.

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Speaker 2: And if you can't be in nature, at least breathe.

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Speaker 2: But if you can't breathe in nature, that's better. Even

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Speaker 2: if you're laying in the backyard on the grass or

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Speaker 2: on the trampoline or something like that, there's something that

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Speaker 2: can shift a mood just by getting out, breathing under control,

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Speaker 2: being intentional without breathing.

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Speaker 3: Recently, a friend gave me a handful of affirmation cards.

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Speaker 3: They're absolutely beautiful, and one of the techniques that the

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Speaker 3: affirmation talks about is when I breathe in, to breathe

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Speaker 3: in that golden warmth of sunlight and to breathe out

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Speaker 3: the folk.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like an affirmation card, doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: But it's just just having that visual does it sounds beautiful?

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Speaker 3: I'm because I love sitting in the sun. There's something

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Speaker 3: about it, even when your eyes are closed you can

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Speaker 3: just feel the warmth wash over you. And yet when

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Speaker 3: you're in that dark cloud space, it's hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. Now our podcast time is pretty

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Speaker 2: much up, so and the next one quickly move Move Move.

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Speaker 2: Research abundantly, overwhelmingly, phenomenally, categorically, in every way tells us

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Speaker 2: that if we move our bodies, we experience a well

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Speaker 2: being impact, a positive well being impact. Run, swim, climb, ride, wrestle, whatever.

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Speaker 2: Just if you can help your kids to move, they

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Speaker 2: will feel better. The next one connect. This is really

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Speaker 2: hard when you depress because usually a conversation stinks and

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Speaker 2: no one wants to talk to you because you're depressed

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Speaker 2: and you're miserable. But if we can help somebody who's

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Speaker 2: feeling low to connect in positive and meaningful ways with

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Speaker 2: someone who cares, again, it's one of the biggest predictors

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Speaker 2: of well being is having high quality relationships where connection counts.

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Speaker 3: So when I'm having a struggle and my conversation stinks,

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Speaker 3: one of the most beautiful tools that you have used

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Speaker 3: in our relationship is to just hold me. The best

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Speaker 3: connection that I can have when I'm in that space

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Speaker 3: where I can't see any good is just having somebody

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Speaker 3: I love just hold me and say it's okay, I'm here.

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Speaker 3: And I think our kids would respond really well to

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Speaker 3: just knowing that we love them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we can even say things like I really

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Speaker 2: want to be with you right now because I can

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Speaker 2: see that you're feeling awful. Can we just hug and

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Speaker 2: I'm not here to fix it? Yeah? And if they

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Speaker 2: say no, and respect that as well, you might say,

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Speaker 2: or would you rather have some space? Can we hug?

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Speaker 2: Or do you need some space? And if they say

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Speaker 2: I need some space, you say, all, well, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to come back in I don't know, five minutes or

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Speaker 2: ten minutes or twenty minutes, and I'm going to check

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Speaker 2: on you and do that based on how old they

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Speaker 2: are and how they're really feeling. But just check in

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Speaker 2: and invite those connections. Let me share a couple of

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Speaker 2: other ones. Real quick learn, learn, be curious, explore the world.

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Speaker 2: Lean In Todd Cashton from George Mason University, one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite researchers, talks incessantly about the power of curiosity

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Speaker 2: for overcoming things like depression and anxiety. The research is there.

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Speaker 2: It shows that being actively involved in a learning process

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Speaker 2: helps us to overcome these mood disorders and mental health challenges.

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Speaker 2: The next one serve help do something for someone else.

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Speaker 2: When we get out of our own way, when we

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Speaker 2: get out of our own head and we go and

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Speaker 2: do something that makes a difference for someone else, it's powerful. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you've got young kids, maybe you can go and

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Speaker 2: volunteer at a nearby I don't know, a church, soup

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Speaker 2: kitchen or something like that, homeless, but it doesn't have

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Speaker 2: to be that big. You might just make some cookies

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Speaker 2: and go and deliver them to the old lady that

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Speaker 2: lives four houses down the street. Or you might find

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Speaker 2: a way that you can make some cupcakes and go

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Speaker 2: and visit the fieries or the ambos and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: we just really appreciate what you do in our community,

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Speaker 2: and we wanted to come and give you something as

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Speaker 2: a token as a recognition of how much we appreciate

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Speaker 2: the service that you give our community. Or maybe you

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Speaker 2: go down to the local surf club and volunteer down there. Like,

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Speaker 2: there's so many different things that you can do if

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Speaker 2: you can just sort of think outside of four walls

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Speaker 2: of your home.

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Speaker 3: A couple of weeks ago, our eighteen year old went

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Speaker 3: out with a friend and she came home she said,

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Speaker 3: can I tell you what I just did? And she

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Speaker 3: and her friend had written a whole heap of little

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Speaker 3: handwritten notes with.

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Speaker 2: Just beautiful thoughts.

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Speaker 3: I hope you have a great day today, You're awesome,

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Speaker 3: you know, sunshining whatever she wrote, and they went and

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Speaker 3: stuck it on people's windscreen underneath their wipers as they

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Speaker 3: walked down at the car park at the beach the

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Speaker 3: other day. And I just thought, it's such an easy thing.

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Speaker 3: You don't actually know how it's going to impact somebody's day.

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Speaker 3: But it left her with a huge smile on a

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Speaker 3: face and a bounce in a step, sharing.

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Speaker 2: A little light. My last couple of ideas are pretty simple.

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Speaker 2: Make a plan. Make a plan. Just say, all right,

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Speaker 2: you're feeling lousy, but let's make a plan. Who do

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Speaker 2: we need to talk to? What can we do? How

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Speaker 2: can we move in a positive direction even on days

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Speaker 2: when we're feeling lousy. And it's not about fixing, it's

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Speaker 2: about recognizing that if we feel lousy, we know these

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Speaker 2: things can help, and we want to help. And I

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Speaker 2: think the last point that I would make is get help,

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Speaker 2: get help, go and see a GP see a psychologist,

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Speaker 2: seek a counselor talk with the school, the school counselor

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Speaker 2: the pastoral care, the well being officer, whoever it is,

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Speaker 2: and there are solutions. There are well being solutions that

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Speaker 2: are available for kids who are struggling with depression and

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Speaker 2: other mental health challenges, and these kinds of ideas are

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Speaker 2: empirically shown to move the needle and just help to

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Speaker 2: alleviate that burden of depression.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to add a tenth one because as

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Speaker 3: you were talking, it just was really apparent to me

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Speaker 3: as a parent to take care of our own mental health.

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Speaker 3: It's so easy when we are with somebody who is

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Speaker 3: struggling to slowly catchure their emotion, and if we're not

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Speaker 3: doing the things that we know are important for our

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Speaker 3: own wellbeing, it can be very easy for us to

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Speaker 3: spiral alongside them. It's so hard being a parent watching

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Speaker 3: our kids struggle, and it's very easy for us to

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Speaker 3: kind of fall down. So number ten for me would

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Speaker 3: be make sure that you're doing what you need to

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Speaker 3: take care of your mental health and recognize that when

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Speaker 3: you seek help, that help is going to be for

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Speaker 3: you too, because you're carrying the weight of watching your

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Speaker 3: child struggler not being able to fix it.

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Speaker 2: Tomorrow, I'm a Happy Famili's podcast, Digital self Harm, the

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Speaker 2: rising trend of teams cybbling themselves, and on Wednesday we're

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Speaker 2: going to be talking about men's post natal depression. It's

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Speaker 2: Mental Health Awareness Month and so our podcasts are primarily

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Speaker 2: centered on these kinds of wadeas oh a quick reminder

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Speaker 2: as well. On Wednesday night, we've got our free webinar.

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Speaker 2: Free webinar and what to do when you're feeling burned

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Speaker 2: out please join us. All the details are at happy

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Speaker 2: families dot com dot a. You. The podcast as always

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 2: our executive producer, and if you'd like more andfo about

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Speaker 2: the things we've talked about today, please check out the

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Speaker 2: show notes at happyfamilies dot com dot au