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Speaker 1: My name is Tatasha Bamblet. I'm a proud First Nations

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Speaker 1: woman and I'm here to acknowledge country t Glenn Young Ganya,

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Speaker 1: Niana Kaka yah y and Binahaka Nian Our gay In

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Speaker 1: Mbini yakarum Jar Dominyamiga Umagahawaka Woman Damon Imlan Bumba ban

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Speaker 1: Gadabomba in and now in wakah ghan On yak rum

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Speaker 1: Jar water Nadaa. Hello, beautiful friends, we gather on the

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Speaker 1: lands of the Aboriginal people. We thank acknowledge and respect

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Speaker 1: the Aboriginal people's land that we're gathering on today. Take

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Speaker 1: pleasure in all the land and respect all that you see.

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Speaker 1: She's on the Money podcast acknowledges culture, country, community and connections,

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Speaker 1: bringing you the tools, knowledge and resources for you to thrive.

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Speaker 2: She's on the Money. She's on the Money. Hello and

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Speaker 2: welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast that's not

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Speaker 2: only here to help you build your financial future, but

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Speaker 2: protect it to and sorry. The truth is, you can

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Speaker 2: have a fantastic relationship, the best relationship in the world,

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Speaker 2: even and still accidentally put yourself in a risky financial

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Speaker 2: position without even realizing it. I am Victoria Divine, and

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Speaker 2: today we are joined by a very special guest, Claire Woalzac.

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Speaker 2: Claire is an accredited family law specialist and partner at

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Speaker 2: Lander and Rogers who is basically the person you would

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Speaker 2: want in your corner if money and relationships ever collided

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Speaker 2: in a very complicated way. Claire has this incredible ability

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Speaker 2: to take the most intimidating parts of family law, property,

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Speaker 2: super child support, financial agreements and translate them into clear,

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Speaker 2: practical advice that actually empowers women instead of scaring them away.

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Speaker 2: She's known for her genuine passion for helping people protect

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Speaker 2: their finances, their future, and their sense of security during

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Speaker 2: some of the most emotional chapters of their lives. Claire,

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Speaker 2: welcome to She's on the Money, Victoria.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for the very kind introduction, and thank you

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Speaker 3: for having me here today. I'm very excited to be

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Speaker 3: I'm excited, but like, are we excited to talk about divorce?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like I got an excited topic. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like when I get excited about the share market

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Speaker 2: or honestly, just women protecting themselves. And I have wanted

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Speaker 2: to do this episode for the longest time, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to do it on my own. I was like,

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Speaker 2: we need a professional, and then when we finally found you,

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Speaker 2: my producer Emma and I were like, she's the one.

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Speaker 2: Get her on the show. Let's do this. But I've

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Speaker 2: wanted to do this episode for so long because the

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Speaker 2: statistics don't lie. Relationship breakdowns happen, and they happen to

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Speaker 2: really good people in really good relationships sometimes unfortunately almost

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Speaker 2: and you would know this. I mean, you've made your

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Speaker 2: entire career on this. One in three marriages are going

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Speaker 2: to end in divorce, and countless factor of relationships fall

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Speaker 2: apart before anyone even realizes that they were even legally

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Speaker 2: considered de facto. And every single time, the financial fallout

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Speaker 2: hits the women the hardest, which makes me and you

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Speaker 2: probably very grumpy, angry, empowered. Let's go with it. It

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Speaker 2: makes us feel empowered to facilitate change. And I would

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Speaker 2: love to get to know you a little bit. Why

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Speaker 2: did you want to practice family law? Where did that

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Speaker 2: come from? You woke up one day and said, I

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Speaker 2: really want to help people through their divorces. What makes

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Speaker 2: you so passionate about this space? Thank you?

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Speaker 3: So I've been practicing family law now for must be

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Speaker 3: coming up to thirteen years. So have you practiced exclusively

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Speaker 3: in this jurisdiction? Did my law degree? Didn't really know

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Speaker 3: what I.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: I did some training as a paralegal in a family

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Speaker 3: law firm, and the minute I started in that firm,

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Speaker 3: I just absolutely loved it. I loved the human interaction,

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Speaker 3: the fact that even as a junior lawyer you had

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Speaker 3: that one on one contact with the client, and also

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Speaker 3: being able to help clients who are going through what

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Speaker 3: is often the most difficult time in their lives to

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Speaker 3: come out the other end to achieve financial and emotional

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Speaker 3: stability is something that really drew me to the industry

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Speaker 3: and is why I remain in this position today.

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Speaker 2: That and I just it makes me feel bad because

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Speaker 2: just so many people, like we all get married, right

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Speaker 2: or not all of us, but the people that do

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Speaker 2: get married get married never with the intention of being like,

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Speaker 2: can't wait, we'll have the best divorce, Like you get

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Speaker 2: married with the intention of that being your forever person.

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Speaker 2: So you're not just talking about like the financial security

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Speaker 2: aspects of it. You're also talking about like the heartbreak

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Speaker 2: that the plans you had laid out in front of

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Speaker 2: you are no longer the plans that are your reality,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like you're balancing this situation where you're like,

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Speaker 2: I need to get through the pragmatic stuff and put

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Speaker 2: myself in the best possible position, but I also don't

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Speaker 2: know what life looks like in the future because I

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Speaker 2: didn't plan for this, And then you throw kids into

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Speaker 2: the mix and everything just gets so flipping complicated. But

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Speaker 2: first up, before we dive into even more complicated questions,

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Speaker 2: if you had a daughter that was about to move

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Speaker 2: in with her partner, what financial conversations or what things,

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Speaker 2: what tips, what tricks are you giving her to make

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Speaker 2: sure that she's protected, that you would basically insist on

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Speaker 2: her having in place before she moved in with that person.

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Speaker 3: So obviously, for couples entering into a new relationship, discussing

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Speaker 3: money and finances can be confronting. It's awkward, and it's

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Speaker 3: certainly not romantic, so there's.

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Speaker 2: No more romance being like, so what's your payg.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, it's awkward. Do you have good super Show me

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Speaker 3: a balance sheet. However, what I can say to you

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Speaker 3: from experience is that it is much more difficult having

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Speaker 3: those discussions around money once a couple has separated or

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Speaker 3: they're close to separating. So one option for consideration would

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Speaker 3: be to enter into what's called a binding financial agreement.

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Speaker 3: I love a BFA, also referred to Yep, you're onto

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Speaker 3: it as a BFA or a pre nuptial agreement. And

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Speaker 3: so a financial agreement is essentially a legally binding contract

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Speaker 3: in which parties can decide how they would like to

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Speaker 3: split their assets upon a separation or divorce. Yeah, a

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Speaker 3: BFA is great because it can deal with not only

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Speaker 3: property settlement but also spousal maintenance. And it really is

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Speaker 3: a common method that our clients are now using to

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Speaker 3: protect their assets. If entered into properly, it has the

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Speaker 3: effect of our seeing the jurisdiction of the family court,

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Speaker 3: which means parties never have to go near a court

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Speaker 3: if they separate in the future. So we're definitely seeing

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Speaker 3: these used more and more as a means to protect wealth.

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Speaker 3: So in some instances that may not be appropriate for

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Speaker 3: whatever reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like what if she's young and has nothing to

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Speaker 2: a name yet, but is also like I want to

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Speaker 2: protect my financial future, Like are these things that we

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Speaker 2: should be entering into or are these things that we

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Speaker 2: just need to know about? If we do have assets.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think it's always good to know that it's

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Speaker 3: there as an option and then potentially get the advice

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Speaker 3: and then make an informed decision about whether it's the

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Speaker 3: right time to enter into it for your particular circumstances.

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Speaker 3: If it's not appropriate for whatever reason. There's definitely some

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Speaker 3: practical tips that if it was my daughter or a

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Speaker 3: potential client should potentially consider. So the first of those

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Speaker 3: would be the importance of openly discussing money, including continuously

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Speaker 3: sort of reviewing financial goals, and you'd want to see

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Speaker 3: that happening throughout the relationship, so not just at the commencement,

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Speaker 3: but throughout the entire relationship. Secondly, I would suggest creating

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Speaker 3: a financial plan at the beginning of the relationship, so

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Speaker 3: sitting down and really having you can.

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Speaker 2: Just take over my podcast honestly, because this is all

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Speaker 2: the stuff that I'm like, make a financial plan, do

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Speaker 2: a BFA, do all of this stuff exactly just on

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Speaker 2: the same So important because that is when you'll sit

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Speaker 2: down and realize, oh, we actually do have some conflicting

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Speaker 2: views about financial issues, yeah, and you want to be

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Speaker 2: able to.

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Speaker 3: Address those at the beginning of the relationship, as opposed

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Speaker 3: to them coming up later in the relationship when you know, maybe.

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Speaker 2: It's too late. Yeah, And that's kind of scary as well,

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Speaker 2: because you go, oh, I think we're on the same page,

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Speaker 2: we're so in love. And then they might go, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: I never want to own property. That's, you know, a

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Speaker 2: waste of money. My parents never owned property, and you go,

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Speaker 2: my entire dream is to purchase property, or they have

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Speaker 2: no interest in saving or investing, and you've been keenly

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Speaker 2: doing it in the background, and it just it can

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Speaker 2: get really icky and sticky, which is why I want

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Speaker 2: it to happen beforehand. And I often say on this show, Claire,

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Speaker 2: I would love for your BFA to be a waste

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Speaker 2: of time and money, Like I would love to be like,

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Speaker 2: we did it, we organized it, and we never used it.

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Speaker 2: What a waste. So your relationship was really successful and

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Speaker 2: you didn't need to trigger AVFA. Fantastic exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I often say to my clients who are considering

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Speaker 3: a BFA, I say to them, look, you put it

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Speaker 3: in your bottom drawer and hopefully never have to look

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Speaker 3: at it again. Yeah, it's an insurance policy essentially, you

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Speaker 3: take it out if you need it, but otherwise you

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Speaker 3: hopefully never have to look at it again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. And it can also make like

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Speaker 2: let's say not so amicable separation much easier because you

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Speaker 2: can draw back to the BFA and maybe you don't

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Speaker 2: even need to get lawyers or the courts or anything involved,

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Speaker 2: because you go, well, we did agree that this is

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Speaker 2: how it would go, and then you can go your

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Speaker 2: separate ways, especially if you're de facto or not married,

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Speaker 2: and there's literally no paperwork. We just don't need to

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Speaker 2: get anyone involved because we go we hate each other,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, we set that out, all right, we'll do that,

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Speaker 2: and like, hopefully both parties are respectful of that exactly.

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Speaker 3: Well, the good thing about it financial agreement is that

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Speaker 3: both parties need to obtain independent legal advice, so they've

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Speaker 3: both had advice at the time of entering into the agreement,

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Speaker 3: so they know exactly what it is that they've essentially

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Speaker 3: signed up to. And hopefully in most of the agreements

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Speaker 3: that I do, there's protection that goes both ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and the parties are comfortable with what they're signing, so obviously,

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Speaker 3: if there were to be an unfortunate event of a

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Speaker 3: separation in the future, both parties know exactly what they're

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Speaker 3: walking away with. There's certainty, there's reduced legal fees or

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Speaker 3: hopefully no legal fees at the pointy end, and the

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Speaker 3: parties will never have to go near the court.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a perfect outcome, honestly, because that is

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Speaker 2: a bit of a nightmare. Stepping a little bit further back,

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Speaker 2: how does the law actually treat couples like married in

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Speaker 2: de facto when it comes to finance and assets. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a lot of mixed information flying around, absolutely, So.

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Speaker 3: Firstly, I might just make the point that de facto

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Speaker 3: spouses and our ed spouses have exactly the same rights

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Speaker 3: under the Family Law Act. So once you've overcome those

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Speaker 3: jurisdictional hurdles or requirements, the same legislation or law applies.

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Speaker 3: So what I might do now is just briefly run

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Speaker 3: you through how the court deal with property settlement, because

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Speaker 3: I'll probably come.

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Speaker 2: Back to that and I feel like that's the biggest conversation, right,

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited exactly.

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Speaker 3: So, look, in any property settlement that we deal with,

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Speaker 3: we apply the same five step process. So that's regardless

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Speaker 3: of the party's financial circumstances. So the first step that

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Speaker 3: we look at is should there be a property settlement

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Speaker 3: at all? We usually overcome that pretty quickly. The second

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Speaker 3: step is identifying the assets, liabilities and superannuation of the

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Speaker 3: parties and ascribing a value to those assets and really

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Speaker 3: coming up with a balance sheet. The third step we

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Speaker 3: look at is contributions to the relationship and chip, so

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Speaker 3: we will assess the financial contributions, non financial contributions, and

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Speaker 3: then contributions of the homemaker and parent also come into play.

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Speaker 2: So like are we talking Sorry to interrupt, yeah, but

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Speaker 2: like are we talking? Like, you know, let's pretend we

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Speaker 2: have two working parents, but the mum is always doing

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Speaker 2: daycare pick up and drop off and the dad doesn't

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Speaker 2: really get involved in that because he just does his

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Speaker 2: stuff and comes home to a cooked meal. Like is

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Speaker 2: that the type of conversation we're having or are you

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Speaker 2: talking about like genuine like know, how many hours are

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Speaker 2: you doing per week per work? Like I feel like

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Speaker 2: it can get messy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look it can. And it's more sort of looking

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Speaker 3: at it in a general sense. So who's working, who's

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Speaker 3: the primary income earner? The other parent or party might

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Speaker 3: be working, but maybe in a part time capacity. Who's

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Speaker 3: looking after the children who's looking after the home. Then

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Speaker 3: we also look at sort of significant contributions which may

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Speaker 3: sort of swing the pendulum in either direction, and they're

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Speaker 3: sort of in the nature of an inheritance, financial gifts

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Speaker 3: that might have come in from parents. They're the sort

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Speaker 3: of other financial contributions that we're looking out to see

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Speaker 3: if there needs to be some further adjustment at that step.

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Speaker 3: But otherwise, the contribution of income and homemaker parent contribution

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Speaker 3: are usually considered to be equal.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so that's the third step.

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Speaker 3: Then we'll move to the fourth step, which is looking

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Speaker 3: at and assessing future needs or prospective factors and working

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Speaker 3: out does there need to be some sort of further

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Speaker 3: adjustment as a result of that step. So things that

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Speaker 3: come up for us commonly are, if one parent has

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Speaker 3: the primary care of children, usually younger children, and who

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Speaker 3: is the prime is there a discrepancy in income sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 3: between the parties that might warrant an adjustment. Then finally

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Speaker 3: the fifth step, the court essentially step back look at

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Speaker 3: the adjustment and say does the need to be an

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Speaker 3: adjustment in one person's favor to ensure that the settlement

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Speaker 3: is just an equitable or that it's fair yeah, So

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Speaker 3: that's how the property settlement works in Australia, as I said,

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Speaker 3: regardless of the family's financial situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now just to bud in apologies. So you sit

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Speaker 2: down with the couple or you sit down with an individual.

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Speaker 2: I sit down with the individuals. So you would represent

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Speaker 2: one party and then the other party would have to

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Speaker 2: get their own legal advice. And so you're doing this

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Speaker 2: process and then hopefully another lawyer is doing this process

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Speaker 2: in the same way, and then you get to come

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Speaker 2: together and go, well, we're on the same page. This

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Speaker 2: is the settlement that never happens, but like in a

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Speaker 2: perfect world, that's what would happen because you're obviously operating

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Speaker 2: in the best interest of your client but also trying

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Speaker 2: to be fair and equitable, and they're hopefully doing the

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Speaker 2: same thing. Is that correct? How you would explain that

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Speaker 2: process exactly?

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Speaker 3: So we will act for one party, whether that's the

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Speaker 3: husband or the wife yep, and then hopefully the other

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Speaker 3: party has engaged their own legal representation and then will

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Speaker 3: negotiate through the lawyers.

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Speaker 2: What if they don't. What if I've gone and gotten

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Speaker 2: a lawyer and then my partner hasn't gone and gotten

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Speaker 2: a lawyer because he doesn't believe in them.

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Speaker 3: Look, the other person does not have to get a lawyer,

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Speaker 3: and no one has to get a lawyer. What we

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Speaker 3: sometimes see in very amicable situations is that one party

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Speaker 3: might receive legal advice and then they'll go back to

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Speaker 3: their ex partner and negotiate the property settlement directly with

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Speaker 3: that person and then just say I was acting for

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Speaker 3: the person that had gone to see the lawyer, we

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Speaker 3: would then simply draw up the settlement documents.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And if they're on the same page's.

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Speaker 3: And there's certain settlement documents, can sent orders that the

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Speaker 3: other person does not need to see a lawyer to

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Speaker 3: get them signed off.

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Speaker 2: So we do see that happen.

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Speaker 3: It's probably rare because I think it's a good idea

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Speaker 3: for both parties to at least receive that initial legal

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Speaker 3: advice so that they're aware of their rights. But as

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Speaker 3: I said, if it's really amicable, hopefully the lawyers are

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Speaker 3: just you know, advising in the background and just end

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Speaker 3: up drawing up the settlement documents.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so pervy about it, but I think that

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Speaker 2: I'm asking these perfect questions because unfortunately, being an ex

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Speaker 2: financial advisor I'd always be the person working with the

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Speaker 2: divorce lawyer pull up all of the financials and can

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Speaker 2: you make a statement of this, and can you give

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Speaker 2: me all of the contributions that she made versus he made,

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Speaker 2: like you know, what's the property Like I would be

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Speaker 2: the person doing all of the I guess grunt work

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Speaker 2: to put on your balance sheet, and my goodness, it

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Speaker 2: would get complicated and I feel like one person would

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Speaker 2: believe they were entitled to more or the other person

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Speaker 2: would be like, no, but I brought that to the relationship,

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Speaker 2: and then there'd be just a lot of arguments that

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Speaker 2: would just complications and misunderstandings. So what would you say

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Speaker 2: is the most or are the most common misunderstandings that

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Speaker 2: people have around superannuation and property splits or financial sediments

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Speaker 2: and the things that you wish just I wish every

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Speaker 2: couple knew this before they even combined their fine answers. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: Look, in relation to superannuation, there still seems to be

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Speaker 3: an understanding, or I should say misunderstanding that superannuation is

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Speaker 3: somehow quarantined from the property settlement.

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Speaker 2: Feels not quaranteed to us.

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Speaker 3: It feels it so unfortunately I have to give people

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Speaker 3: the advice depending on who I'm acting for that No

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Speaker 3: superannuation is included unless way.

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Speaker 2: And the jurisdiction is different. We're talking about the East

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Speaker 2: Coast of Australia, just to be very clear here.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's slightly different in WA, but superannuation is considered

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Speaker 3: property so it can be split as part of the

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Speaker 3: property settlement and often is so. Some other common myths

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Speaker 3: or misconceptions in family law include some couples think we're together,

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Speaker 3: so everything's going to be split fifty to fifty equally,

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Speaker 3: regardless of what the contributions are, regardless of what the

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Speaker 3: future needs are.

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Speaker 2: That's just not correct.

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Speaker 3: We always have to go through that five step process

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Speaker 3: to work out what a party's entitlement is going to be.

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Speaker 2: That's a very American take comes up all the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and people would go, it's fifty to fifty like the

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Speaker 2: government just that's the base. And it's like not in Australia,

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Speaker 2: maybe in America, but we are different exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no starting point of equality, so that one

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Speaker 3: comes up time and time again. The other one that

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Speaker 3: we often see is people think, well, it's in my name,

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Speaker 3: therefore it is mine yep. However, in family law, legal

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Speaker 3: ownership doesn't really mean anything.

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Speaker 2: In your name doesn't mean anything. It doesn't yet you

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Speaker 2: can't actually open a shared trading account with two names on.

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Speaker 2: It has to be in one parties or a trust.

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Speaker 2: So it makes that make sense exactly.

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Speaker 3: So you know, people also were quite shocked sometimes hearing

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Speaker 3: that advice. But with property it's broadly defined. You know,

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Speaker 3: everything goes onto the asset sheet or the balance sheet,

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Speaker 3: whether it's in sole name, joint names, whether it's owned

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Speaker 3: by a business or a trust. Assets that are held

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Speaker 3: internationally also go on, and then you obviously go through

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Speaker 3: that five step process to work out what the entitlements are.

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Speaker 3: The other one that I wanted to mention, because this

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Speaker 3: one still comes up time and time again, is that

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Speaker 3: people believe that informal property settlements are legally binding or enforceable,

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Speaker 3: and they are not so, and.

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Speaker 2: That can be heartbreaking as well to learn, very heartbreaking.

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Speaker 3: So I've had some poor clients who have come to

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Speaker 3: me and they've said, oh, we entered into an informal

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Speaker 3: property settlement two years ago, and I've now been served

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Speaker 3: with a court application, and so I have to give

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Speaker 3: them advice to say, well, unfortunately you never registered that

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Speaker 3: agreement with the family court, you never entered into a

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Speaker 3: financial agreement, therefore not binding. We're going to have to

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Speaker 3: go through the process again, which is obviously very upsetting,

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Speaker 3: emotionally distressing, but financially.

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Speaker 2: You're going to take a big hit having to go

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Speaker 2: through legal fees again. Yeah, I feel like your job.

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Speaker 2: Yes you are a family lawyer, but you're also probably

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Speaker 2: a therapist as well. Like the amount of times that

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Speaker 2: like I would see it as well, and you just go,

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Speaker 2: this is so much more emotional than it is logical,

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Speaker 2: and we need to work through that as well. So

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Speaker 2: that's another challenge. Can I just pop back to super

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Speaker 2: because you said, oh, there's this common misunderstanding that super is,

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Speaker 2: you know, a segregated thing and it's not just treated

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Speaker 2: as property. What if you've had a stay at home mum.

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Speaker 2: Let's pretend they're in their fifty so they're pre retirement,

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Speaker 2: but they are definitely thinking about it, and she maybe

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Speaker 2: has like thirty thousand dollars sitting in her super because

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Speaker 2: she worked for a bit and then had kids and

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Speaker 2: then never really went back. And you've got an executive

383
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Speaker 2: who's got a couple of hundred grand. You're saying she

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Speaker 2: could be entitled to some of his super look. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that's correct.

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Speaker 3: So in long marriages or relationships, the general position is

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Speaker 3: superannuation will be equalized so that she would walk away

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Speaker 3: with fifty percent of the superannuation.

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Speaker 2: Long though, is it like long as in about ten.

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Speaker 3: Years now considered to be a long marriage or relationship,

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Speaker 3: and otherwise if it was a shorter relationship, there's still

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to have a superannuation split.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it may just not be fifty to fifty. No,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of makes sense, and I'm assuming that. Then,

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Speaker 2: you know, if they were younger and they had dependents

396
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Speaker 2: like that, then changes the triggers again, because like exactly

397
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 2: not just looking after yourself anymore because the kids have

398
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 2: flown the coop, you actually have dependents that rely on you.

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Speaker 2: I have just so many questions, and like, I want

400
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Speaker 2: to get more into the pervy stuff. So let's Claire

401
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 2: take a really quick break, and then when we come back,

402
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Speaker 2: I've got some more questions for you, mainly about things

403
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 2: like unpaid work in relationships, because women, as you would

404
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 2: already know, are wildly fantastic and undervaluing themselves and the

405
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 2: contributions they make to a household. And then I want

406
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: to know some red flags to look out for and

407
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 2: what to do if you're thinking about leaving your relationship.

408
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Speaker 2: But you haven't had that conversation yet, so guys, don't

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Speaker 2: go anywhere. All right, Welcome back, everybody. I want to

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Speaker 2: start this first half of the episode with something that sits,

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Speaker 2: I guess at the center of so many women's financial stories,

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Speaker 2: and that is unpaid labor, unpaid work, and the years

413
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Speaker 2: that are spent out of the workforce caring for children.

414
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Speaker 2: And it's twenty twenty six, so I feel like gender

415
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: roles have changed. Like I've got at the moment a

416
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Speaker 2: stay home husband, which is amazing, and I'm the primary

417
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Speaker 2: you know, breadwinner, but that's not common And even talking

418
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Speaker 2: to like mums at daycare, they're like, wait, what, what's

419
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Speaker 2: your dynamic? How does that work? So I've been crucified

420
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Speaker 2: in the past because they're like, oh, you just gender

421
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 2: stereotype women so often, But I'm not gender stereotyping. That's

422
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 2: just the reality of most of the world's construct So

423
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Speaker 2: when someone has been relying on their partner as the

424
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Speaker 2: primary income earner for a really long time. I feel

425
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Speaker 2: like it's really easy to feel stuck like you haven't

426
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Speaker 2: contributed quite enough, because like you were the one going

427
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Speaker 2: to work and your name wasn't on that pay slip,

428
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Speaker 2: or that maybe you're not entitled too much when the

429
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Speaker 2: relationship ends, Claire, could you please walk us through and

430
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Speaker 2: I've pre prepared you for this one, but walk us

431
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: through a real world example of how unpaid work or

432
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Speaker 2: even uneven earnings is actually treated in a separation.

433
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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Look, this issue comes up time and time again

435
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 3: with contributions, which is the third step.

436
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: If you remember when I went through the fun or

437
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: the five step process before, Please don't please don't have

438
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 2: a question with the end.

439
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 3: So we look at contributions to the relationship and those

440
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: contributions are as I said, financial, non financial, and also

441
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 3: we look at the homemaker and parent contribution.

442
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,959
Speaker 2: I make a document of that. Would you mind if

443
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 2: I take your five steps give you complete credit, but

444
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: I'll make it as like a free downloadable on my website.

445
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 2: This is how the divorce process would go, so you

446
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: can have a think about it before you go and

447
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: see a divorce lawyer or if you're thinking of leaving

448
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: your partner, like this is just what it look back

449
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 2: and like if they happened to look over your shoulder'd

450
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: be like, oh, it's just on she's on the money.

451
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: How interesting. Absolutely, you're probably the same as me. I'm like,

452
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 2: I'll be the bad guy. You just say I said

453
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: that you had to do that, right, I'm happy to

454
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: be that person. And we'll put it on the website

455
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 2: and it'll be a free download. All so for everyone

456
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 2: following along, the link to that is going to be

457
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: in the show notes.

458
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 3: Great, So the court will assess what did the parties

459
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 3: have when they commenced living together, what's happened over the

460
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 3: course of the relationship, and then maybe we also need

461
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 3: to look at post separation contributions. But when it comes

462
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 3: to strictly looking at income, so who was the primary

463
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: income earner and then who looked after the children or

464
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 3: undertook the domestic duties those contributions, it is settled that they.

465
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 2: Will be assessed equally fifty to fifty. There will be no.

466
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 3: Adjustment in, for example, the husband's favor because ehe has

467
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: earned say a million dollars a year and his wife

468
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 3: has had to maybe step back from her career to

469
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 3: raise However, many children.

470
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: Which ultimately impacted him positively because he could focus on

471
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 2: earning that money and not just earning that money, but

472
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: working his career up. So when he leaves this relationship,

473
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: he still has that earning potential, but she does not exactly.

474
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 3: And I often say to clients the most valuable thing

475
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: walking away from a property settlement is that earning potential.

476
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 2: Yes, because you carry that with you know, you get

477
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: to keep that. We can't take that from you, exactly.

478
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 2: So look the law, it's settled law. Those contributions will

479
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 2: be assessed as equal.

480
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 3: Now, what I am seeing sort of come through in

481
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 3: recent times where there's obviously more women in the workforce,

482
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: is that some wives are not only taking on the

483
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: role as primary homemaker and parent, but they're also taking

484
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 3: on the role as primary income earner.

485
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it makes me so grumpy because I'm

486
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: just like, you both became parents on the same day,

487
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 2: yet you're not splitting the like contributions equally exactly. So

488
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: then I have to give advice to my female client

489
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: to say, look, unfortunately the law has not caught up

490
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: with the current times, and those contributions will still be

491
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 2: assessed as equal.

492
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

493
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: So she will not be able to get an extra

494
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 3: percentage or whatever it works out to be because she's

495
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 3: been carrying the burden of both work and the homemaker

496
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 3: parenting role. So I'm really hopeful that the law will

497
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 3: change and that there will be a case that goes

498
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: to the full court that then allows the female to

499
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 3: receive some extra contributions and then obviously do better in

500
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 3: the property settlement.

501
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the worst part about it is you could

502
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: talk about wanting that to the cows come home, but

503
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 2: we actually need a couple to set a precedence we

504
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 2: did in the court, to like actually fight it and

505
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: take it and be willing to throw their money at

506
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: this situation to get their best possible outcome so that

507
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: the precedence can be set so that then we can

508
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: fall back on that as well. This case worked this way,

509
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: but right now we don't have it. So if someone

510
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: wants to fight that fight for us, just let us know.

511
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: Please let me know, because I would love to. We

512
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: want if we could, if we could be involved, that

513
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: would be fantastic. So it's like, you're not just doing

514
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: it for you, You're doing it for women all across

515
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: Australia exactly exactly speaking about children and like pivoting a

516
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: little bit. How is child support assessed and then enforced

517
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: and what challenges to people most commonly face in that space?

518
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: Sure, So, look, the child support legislation is very very complex.

519
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 3: Child support is managed through Services Australia and the way

520
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: that they assess child support.

521
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: Is done through a formula.

522
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: So that formula essentially takes into account the number of

523
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 3: nights the children are spending with each parent, takes into

524
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: account the parent's incomes, It takes into account the age

525
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 3: and number of children, and then a few other factors

526
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: and then comes out with an assessment and an assessed

527
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: amount that needs to be paid on a weekly or

528
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: fortnightly basis, and that can be paid either privately or

529
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: it can be paid through the child support agency. When

530
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: it comes to high income families, they will often enter

531
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 3: into private child support agreements and that can cover off

532
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 3: on periodic child support, so you sort of weekly or

533
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 3: monthly payments, but it can also cover non periodic expenses

534
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: such as private school fees, your health insurance premiums, gap

535
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: medical expenses, extracurricula everything. Basically, it can be covered off

536
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: any child related costs, any child related expense can go

537
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: into that agreement. So we will often negotiate child support

538
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: at the same time that we're negotiating a property settlement

539
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 3: and then document it by way of binding child support agreement,

540
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: or they might decide to do an assessment through the agency.

541
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: It just depends on the circumstances and is it true

542
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: that if you go through the assessment the agencies sugests

543
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: and they're like pre calculated formula, it's not usually enough.

544
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: And that's why private settlements are usually more popular, not

545
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: because people are trying to get out of it, but

546
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: more Yeah, cool, you can't put much food on the

547
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: table for the calculated amount that the government does.

548
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: Look, I think that's a concern that our clients have,

549
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: is if that they simply go through the assessment that

550
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: just simply isn't enough to cover the expenses that their

551
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: children have. There is a child support cap amount where

552
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: families are earning a certain level of income, and I

553
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: would have to check exactly what.

554
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: You don't have to disclose that that's fine, but it's

555
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: good to know that the cap exists.

556
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: There is a cap, and once you reach that cap,

557
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: you sort of capped out. All bets are off all

558
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: bets are off, and then it is absolutely appropriate to

559
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: look at entering into a private agreement because your kids

560
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: are likely going to have higher expenses than that of

561
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 3: you know.

562
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: You've created a life style and it's different, and you

563
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: might even just live in a different suburb and therefore

564
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: rents more expensive. And like it can get very nuanced

565
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: and very complicated, and like child support is complicated. It is, Yes, absolutely,

566
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: I won't go on and on about that, but that's complicated.

567
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: But relationships in general are very complicated. And you get

568
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: is it the privilege of seeing inside so many relationships

569
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: and usually when they're not doing so well. So what

570
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: early money behaviors or patterns tend to predict financial problems

571
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: later on in the relationship for you?

572
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think I am in a very unique

573
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: position where I am exposed to all of these different

574
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 3: relationships and we have clients as young as in their

575
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: thirties separating right up until sixty seventies, sometimes even older.

576
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: So I've definitely.

577
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: Observed some sort of key behaviors that can lead to

578
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: financial troubles that we see later in life. The first

579
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: of those is and this is probably doesn't come as

580
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: we prize to you. But families often spend more than

581
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 3: they earn.

582
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: So wow, really that's crazy. It's common.

583
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: So obviously that's where a family's income is applied to

584
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 3: discretionary or non essential type items. And you know, instead of,

585
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: for instance, applying those funds towards investments or paying down

586
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: the mortgage. Often these families are driving expensive luxury vehicles

587
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: which are fully leased.

588
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: Yeah they are paying kills me because you like see

589
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: them and you go, wow, they're so aspirational. I didn't

590
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: see the divorce coming. Exactly.

591
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 3: They are potentially paying private school fees, but they're doing

592
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: that using credit or drawing down on their mortgage. They're

593
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: buying other luxury items, spending a lot of money on holidays.

594
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: So from the facade, it looks as though they have

595
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: a lot of trainey. They're the Joneses, exactly.

596
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: And we all know some of them.

597
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: And when they side to separate, there just simply isn't

598
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: a lot of property available for division, and they certainly

599
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: won't be able to maintain that level of spending a

600
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: lifestyle that they may have been accustomed to while they

601
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: were together. In some extreme cases that we see, we

602
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: have to separate debt and that gets really nasty. Yeah,

603
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: because no one wants to carry debt exactly, prefer to

604
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: walk away cleanly. And I get that that's not how

605
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 3: this is going to work out. I'm sorry, sir, exactly.

606
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: So that's a big one that we see. Then there

607
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: really is generally just a lack of financial planning or

608
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 3: budgeting that we come across. So this often leads to overspending,

609
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 3: and then there's just no surplus funds available for the

610
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: event of an emergency. Now, an emergency could be anything,

611
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: but one example is a separation that could be considered

612
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 3: an emergency. So for women in particular, when they separate

613
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: and they don't have this sort of I guess kitty

614
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: or emergency fund available to them, they can be left

615
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: in a pretty financially precarious position, particularly if they're looking

616
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: after young children, they're not working, and they haven't devised

617
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 3: a plan for how they're going to separate. So my

618
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: advice is always have an emergency fund that you can access.

619
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: If I need to not preach that loud enough. I

620
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: have been preaching it for years, Claire, and still people

621
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: will be like, it's fine, my husband and I are

622
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: in a really good place, and then all of a sudden,

623
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: you're not and you're going I wish i'd listened to you,

624
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: and I go, I know, but you only hear what

625
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: you want to hear, and you only do what you

626
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: want to do. And I feel like it's so nice,

627
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: and like I'm obsessed with my husband, Claire. He is

628
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: the best thing since li Spread. I will tell you

629
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: all about him all day, every day. But I'm not

630
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: deluded enough to think that that might be forever, like

631
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: I would love it to be forever. Like you know,

632
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: we always talk about inner eighties. We'll do this and that,

633
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: like very cute. But also I have my own emergency fund.

634
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 2: I know what the finances look like. We are always

635
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: talking about budgeting and we're always making sure that we're

636
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 2: on the same page because it's just so important. Like

637
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: I've seen some of the best relationships crumble and I

638
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 2: didn't even see it coming, and I was their financial advisor.

639
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: Like you just don't know sometimes who you're going to

640
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: bed with, and that can be heartbreaking as well, and

641
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 2: not a reality that you want to plan for. You go, No,

642
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 2: my husband will never ask any partner who's been cheated

643
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: on if they thought that their partner would cheat on them. Oh,

644
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: that's exactly right.

645
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 3: And as families do, we see relationships breakdown for a

646
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 3: myriad of different reasons, and most of those reasons could

647
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: never have been predicted at the commencement of the relationship.

648
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 3: So you know, as you say extramarital affair, couldn't see

649
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 3: that one coming. It could be due to illness, whether

650
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: that mental or physical.

651
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: There could be.

652
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: Financial issues that you know, you could just couldn't predict.

653
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: So there are just so many reasons as to you know,

654
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 3: why the relationship might break down.

655
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: If you could predict it, you probably wouldn't have got

656
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: married to them.

657
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: That's what I always say, Like, who enters into a

658
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: marriage thinking that they're gonna, you know, break It's going

659
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: to break down in the future.

660
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: It's just not going to have that. Sorry. The average

661
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: wedding these days, I think cost sixty two thousand dollars. Like,

662
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: we're not doing that because we're like, oh whatever, money

663
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: doesn't masher. Like, we're doing it because we think it's

664
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: an investment into our future, and that is our future.

665
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: And so I think that that's where we need to

666
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: balance the conversations about being oh yes, this is really

667
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: heavy and it is really hard, but it's also the

668
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: reality of the world. And like, I want to live

669
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: in a Disneyland when it comes to my relationship. But

670
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: the reality of the world is one in three marriages

671
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: and in divorce, and I think that that's only rising,

672
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: which is really sad. But at the same time, let's

673
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: just be prepared, prepare for the worst, and when the

674
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: best happens, money win. We're all in a really good position, exactly,

675
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: completely agree. So if we then flip it and not

676
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: go what are the red flags? We go what are

677
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: the healthiest things you've seen when you look at all

678
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: of the separations that you've worked on, what do the

679
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: healthiest financial exits have in common? And then also tell

680
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: me about the messy ones.

681
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so look, yeah, there's definitely some hallmark features of

682
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: our more sort of amicable settlements versus the really messy ones.

683
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll start with the amicable separations. Yeah, the

684
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: nice one. That's how we would like it to happen, exactly.

685
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: So the first sort of sign or trend I should

686
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: say with an amicable separation is there's often full financial disclosure,

687
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 3: which happens very early on in the piece. It means

688
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: that both parties have contributed to coming up with a

689
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: joint balance sheet, something that you would have been very

690
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 3: familiar as a financial advisor, and therefore both parties feel

691
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 3: fully informed to be able to make a decision as

692
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 3: to their property settlement. So the matters resolved pretty quickly

693
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 3: with those ones. The other is as I mentioned before,

694
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 3: where parties are able to negotiate the settlement between themselves.

695
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 3: So ideally they would have both gone off and received

696
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 3: legal advice through an initial consultation with separate lawyers, and

697
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 3: then they'll come together and devise a property settlement based

698
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 3: on that advice that they've both received, and then the

699
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 3: lawyers will simply draw up that settlement in settlement documents

700
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 3: and register it with the court, or we can enter

701
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 3: into a financial agreement. Then the other tip that I

702
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 3: always give to my clients if they want it to

703
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 3: be an amicable separation, is that they're going to have

704
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: to be able to compromise. They're going to have to

705
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 3: make concessions and just walk away and drop some arguments

706
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: because you're not going to win worth every single point

707
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 3: that you want to make in a family law separation.

708
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: It's just not going to happen and you can get

709
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 2: really aggressive about that, especially if you're divor seeing somebody

710
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: who you believe has done wrong by you because you

711
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: really want to get back at them, or you really

712
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: want to make it even, or no, they owe me

713
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: for something, your piece is worth more, exactly, and the

714
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: family court system is not the place for vindication, no, sadly, sadly,

715
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: because it would be a lot more fun and a

716
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: lot more dramatic, and probably a lot more on TV

717
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: if it.

718
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 3: Was exactly so, you know, Unfortunately the reality of family

719
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 3: law is very different to what you see on TV.

720
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, and what you see on TV is always American, Yeah,

721
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: and that is not our system. Unfortunate does not happen

722
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: in the courtroom like that. Damn it very boring. It's like, oh, yes,

723
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: this is the settlement figure and you go, yes, cool,

724
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: how boring. I'm sorry, So tell me about the messiest ones.

725
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: Like you said before, one of the hallmarks of a

726
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: good system is full financial disclosure. And I think that

727
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: that's really important. And I can almost bet that the

728
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: messiest ones are hiding pieces.

729
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 3: They obviously have the opposite traits or trends, and probably

730
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 3: some of our longest standing matters that have ended up

731
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 3: in litigation. Property matters are where there has been financial

732
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 3: non disclosure, and in those cases we have to issue

733
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 3: court proceedings so that we can then issue subpoenas for

734
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: the production of documents that we have not been able

735
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: to maintain or I should say sorry, obtain through lawyers letters. Yes,

736
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: so those matters are very expensive. They are in the

737
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: court for many many years, often involve third parties having

738
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 3: to be joined to the proceedings. So the lesson there

739
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 3: is just disclosure documents, so you don't have to end

740
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: up in the system.

741
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're going to end up paying all of

742
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: it inter legal fees. And like as much as lawyers

743
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 2: like getting paid, don't get me wrong, they're also like, guys,

744
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 2: this is dumb. You're wasting your money. Let's just sort

745
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: it out. Yeah, let's just sort it out. Because I'm

746
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 2: also a bit bored of this process as well, Like,

747
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: come on, guys, Like I remember when I first got

748
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 2: into financial advice, you know, ad joined to practice, and

749
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: we were talking about the clients that we were taking on,

750
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: and like we'd do these briefings before each client meeting

751
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: and they'd be like, this is the history of the

752
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: client with the practice, this is what they've done, the like,

753
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: and it would always get really juicy, like I feel

754
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: like it gets juicy out the more money people have.

755
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 2: They'd be like, Okay, so this is this person and

756
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: the woman that's coming with him is his third wife,

757
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: and we deal with the other wives like it would

758
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: just be so messy and I'd be like, okay, lokey. Interesting.

759
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: But also the amount of times I'd be told, well,

760
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: she's coming in, but not the new wife because we

761
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: haven't settled the last divorce and that's been going on

762
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 2: for ten years, or that's been going on for fifteen years,

763
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: And I go, wait, what it takes that long? And

764
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: in some cases it really does.

765
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I mean I don't think I've had a

766
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: matter that's run for ten years, thank goodness, Oh my gosh.

767
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: However, we do have some matters.

768
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: That run three, four, five, six years, and often it

769
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 3: is around this financial nondisclosure type issues because people just

770
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 3: won't disclose what is there, and then you have to

771
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 3: undertake that really detailed analysis, often with forensic accountants involved,

772
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 3: to try and work out, well, what is actually in.

773
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: The house here and where did they get this and

774
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: where did they move it to and exactly.

775
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 3: So we often spend a lot of our time as

776
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: family lawyers at that second step, which is identifying and

777
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: valuing the asset pool that's available quick.

778
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: So the five steps can take five years sometimes.

779
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's that step of you know, basically coming

780
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 3: up with an agreed balance sheet that often takes the

781
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 3: most time and the other stuff can you know, then

782
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 3: be sorted out.

783
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I feel like there's probably one case

784
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: or one situation that's really stuck with you because it

785
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: maybe has fundamentally changed how you think about money and relationships.

786
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: What is that?

787
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 2: Look, there's probably a few, but there's more than one, babe, Yeah,

788
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: there's a lot.

789
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, one of the more recent files that I've had

790
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 3: involved unfortunately financial abuse, which is a form of family violence.

791
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: So my client, she was working, but she was not

792
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 3: the primary income earner. Her husband had full control of

793
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 3: the financial circumstances in their family. She had to ask

794
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 3: his permission to purchase anything, even down to if she

795
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: wanted to purchase a coffee or a smoothie from the

796
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 3: local cafe, she had to get his consent to do so.

797
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 3: He much preferred her to make those drinks at home

798
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 3: due to the expense. So the problem that we then

799
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 3: had is she then decided pretty quickly that she wanted

800
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: to leave that relationship, pulled the pin and hadn't sort

801
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 3: of put the safeguards in place, and he then cut

802
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: off all access to finances. And so in that situation,

803
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 3: it really reiterated to me the importance of having an

804
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: emergency fund, which she definitely could have had if she

805
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: had sort of got the advice beforehand, as opposed to,

806
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: you know, receiving that advice after she'd actually moved out

807
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 3: with the children.

808
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: It actually breaks my heart because that's my number one

809
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 2: recommendation is kind of and I say this all the time,

810
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: get your ducks in a row before you let them know.

811
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: And the reason I say that is because if you're

812
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: planning on divorcing somebody, you've never seen them in that circumstance. Like,

813
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: and I won't say that there aren't valid reasons, but

814
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 2: sometimes for people, it can feel like you are ripping

815
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: a rug out from under them that they didn't even

816
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: see coming, and they will clutch at anything to gain

817
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: some level of control. So, like, before you do this,

818
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: where does your pay go? Do you have your own bank? Accounts,

819
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: even just setting up your bank accounts, organizing where your

820
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: salary gets paid to. We might not be changing it

821
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: yet because we don't want to, like, you know, put

822
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: any flags up that there's something wrong. But you know

823
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 2: that the bank account exists, and you know the HR

824
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: forms exist to change where that pay is going to

825
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: go and when you're going to tell them where's your super,

826
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: where's their super? Like it taking like we doing a

827
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 2: little bit of forensic accounting ourselves while that's maybe open.

828
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: So you might walk around the house and take photos

829
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: of all the bills. You might walk around the house

830
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: and take photos of your credit card statement, your home

831
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: alone statements. You know, go through the office and work out,

832
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 2: oh okay, there's some share trading account information. I always recommend,

833
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: and like you might recommend something different. I just love clean.

834
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: I always recommend setting up an extra email account and

835
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: you just send everything there so that you're not like

836
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: bogging down your personal email account and you have to

837
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: filter through the iconic emails to find your divorce information.

838
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: There's just another email account that you can flick things

839
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: to as things happen. Important documentication, identification. This is going

840
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: to be a bit scary but where are your children's

841
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: passports like things like that, where you go. My husband

842
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: would never fled the country with my kids. Never say

843
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: never exactly, and that's really scary. But get your ducks

844
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: in a row before you let your husband or your

845
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: wife know that you're planning on leaving them, exactly.

846
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 3: And one of the things that's come up sort of

847
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 3: time and time again for us now that we're obviously

848
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 3: in this digital age, most documents and files are stored electronically, yes,

849
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 3: so it's critical if you are the one leaving to

850
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 3: make sure that you've not only taken your electronic device

851
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 3: with you if it's yours and contains those files, but

852
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: otherwise signing out on all devices that might be remaining

853
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 3: in the home so that your ex cannot access messages.

854
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 3: Three kids iPad. The kids iPad's a big one. We

855
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 3: see that coming up a lot. So obviously people have

856
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 3: signed on through the Apple account and as we just.

857
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: Want Disney class yeah exactly, so like it was wholesome.

858
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,479
Speaker 3: These are all the things that you don't think about

859
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 3: when you're in a crisis situation. But there's absolutely I

860
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 3: think we could come up with a pretty good list

861
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 3: between you and I I think we'd be good.

862
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 2: You've just yeah, said some.

863
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 3: Other ones that I think could be good to add

864
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: to my list. So yeah, absolutely critical to think about

865
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 3: these things if you want to be best prepared.

866
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and do it when you're not in vital flight mode,

867
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: because like our brains are so scrambled and you don't

868
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 2: know how that conversation is going to go. They could go, oh, well,

869
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 2: so glad you asked. I've been waiting for this day.

870
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to bring it up, and then

871
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: you have the most amicable warce ever, or they could

872
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: fly absolutely off the chain. Want you out vice versa, Like,

873
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: let's just sit back a little bit and go, Okay,

874
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: I've made this decision. I feel at peace with this decision.

875
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: It's what I want have. I got everything that I

876
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: need access to, And I think that that's where you know,

877
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: even if your partner knows your email loggin, because like

878
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: my husband knows, like I like, I've got no privacy

879
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: in my life, Like not in a bad way, but

880
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: like he'll pick up my phone and be like, oh,

881
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 2: I'm just checking the weather whatever. He knows my codes,

882
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: he knows my passwords, which is why I think this

883
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 2: separate email account can be really helpful. I think that's

884
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: a correct idea. They can't go through my phone and

885
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: delete things. I can also email myself and then delete

886
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: it from my outbooks, so they don't even know about

887
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: that email address existing. But I can have my share

888
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: trading documents, I can have licenses, I can have agreement.

889
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: I can just email myself everything that I think I need.

890
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: Hopefully you don't. Hopefully you turn up to Claire's off

891
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: first and you go, I've got all my ducks in

892
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: a row. I have absolutely everything, and Claire goes, wow,

893
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: you really have done a lot. All I need is

894
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: and you'll be like, great, I don't have to go

895
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: away and do even more homework or snooping or trying

896
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: to work out where the hell my stuff is. Yes,

897
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: So for me, that is a really good way of

898
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 2: protecting it because it can kind of be like a

899
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: burner account.

900
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: And it's hard because if you've put in a long

901
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: relationship of you know, ten, fifteen, twenty years, and then

902
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: you separate and you have to all of a sudden

903
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: find all of these documents from over the course of

904
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: that relationship, you go, I don't even know where to start. Yeah,

905
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 3: so if you're sort of compiling those documents, you know

906
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 3: as you go, it just makes the whole process so

907
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 3: much easier.

908
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even just clean. And I unfortunately have spoken

909
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: to a lot of people in these situations just the basics.

910
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 2: So where do you bank? Do you know which bank

911
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: you're banking with, because if it is a financially abusive situation,

912
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 2: you might not actually know where all of the money

913
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 2: is being held. And also you have access to you

914
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 2: and this is just me speaking from experience. All you

915
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: have access to is an amex. So you know that

916
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 2: you put all of your costs on a credit card,

917
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: but where does the money come from when you pay

918
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: it off? Like, can we just maybe look into that

919
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: so that you go, Okay, well, I know we bank

920
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: with CommBank, Yes, And at least you've got a good

921
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: starting point. So that's where we need to start documenting

922
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: even the simplest things, because I promise they're the things

923
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: that are going to cause a lot of friction during

924
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: the process, like, oh, so where do your bank? What's

925
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: in your bank? No clue exactly.

926
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: And I think that comes back to the point that

927
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 3: it's so important for couples to have regular conversations about

928
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: money and finance so that both of them are on

929
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 3: the same page. It still might be that some person

930
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 3: takes control of the finance. Is absolutely fine, but the

931
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 3: other person needs to have an understand of what's there.

932
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 3: As you say, who do they bank with? If something

933
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 3: happens to the other person, they're going to need to

934
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 3: sort of take over pretty quickly. So I think it

935
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 3: just drives that message home. Yeah, agreed.

936
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: And if someone is thinking of separating from their partner,

937
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: to wrap up that part of the conversation, is there

938
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 2: anything else you think they should do first, apart from

939
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: what we've just discussed.

940
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 3: Look, I think if they do know who they're banking

941
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 3: with and have access to that information, I often advise

942
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 3: clients to go to the bank and request joint signatories on.

943
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: Mart You can do that account easily, too, very easy.

944
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 3: The banks are great now. They understand, you know, what

945
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: happens when people are going through a divorce, and so

946
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 3: they act very very quickly, which is fabulous. The other

947
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 3: one I've already mentioned is having an emergency fund or

948
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 3: access to funds in a separate bank account. Potentially the

949
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 3: other thing if there is family violence, it's really, really

950
00:49:54,280 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 3: important to devise a safety plan before leaving, but is

951
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 3: likely to involve going to get some initial legal advice

952
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 3: and then potentially even taking out an intervention order to

953
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 3: protect both the applicant and the children.

954
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

955
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: The other thing that we've already touched on is gathering

956
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: important documents, So I don't think we need to sort

957
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 3: of go over that anymore.

958
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: No, you're going to make your burnery email account and

959
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: then you're going to go to Claire and she's gonna

960
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: go You've been speaking to Victoria, Yeah, exactly.

961
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 3: And yeah, I always advise clients if they've got children

962
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 3: and they're the primary care remove the passports, remove the

963
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 3: birth certificates, just in case.

964
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it sounds really dramatic, but I prefer you

965
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: to be dramatic. And like I've said this to clients

966
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: in the past, I'm like, you don't have to hide

967
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: them in your house, drop them off at your mum's place,

968
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: give them to a trusted friend. If push comes to

969
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: shove and your partner is like, where are the kids'

970
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: passports and you're not in a situation where you're planning

971
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 2: on going on holiday, you'd be like, why is that, honey?

972
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 4: Oh?

973
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: I don't know we've just moved, or you know, the

974
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 2: house is a mess. They could be anywhere I would

975
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: prefer to have that confrontation, and you'd be like, oh, like,

976
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 2: I actually don't know. That's crazy. We'll look for them together,

977
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 2: then find that they were looking for them for an

978
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 2: ulterior motive that would have put you in a really

979
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: bad situation exactly.

980
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 3: And then the only other point I wanted to make,

981
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 3: and we have sort of.

982
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: Touched on this before, is go and get your legal advice. Okay,

983
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 2: I need to butt in there. Yes, you've just told

984
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: me all these situations where women don't have access to finance,

985
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 2: and like I feel like all of us have in

986
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: our head, divorce lawyers are expensive. What happens in that situation?

987
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: Can I come and see you when I have no cash? Look,

988
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: every law firm is different as to how they sort

989
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 2: of charge for an initial consultation. I know that there

990
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: some are some services where you'll receive a half an

991
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: hour free consultation if you're referred through certain agencies. Otherwise,

992
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: you know, family lawyers are usually pretty understanding about you know,

993
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: a party situation, and if you know, the fee has

994
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: to be deferred or you.

995
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 3: Know they can't come up with the money straight away,

996
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 3: then there's usually some understanding around.

997
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 2: That because it's not even maybe I do have the money,

998
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 2: but I don't want to take you don't have access

999
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: hents straight away, but I don't want to take it

1000
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: out of my account because I don't want my husband

1001
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 2: seeing that I am paying legal Why are you paying

1002
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: legal fees, honey, because like you know, they're not cheap

1003
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: like it at a minimum is a couple of hundred

1004
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: dollars for your first consul, if not thousands, like that

1005
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 2: would trigger some alarm bells exactly.

1006
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: So what we often see clients doing is borrowing money

1007
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: from family or friends for that initial consultation if they

1008
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: have to, and if they've got those concerns so that

1009
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 3: there's no sort of transaction that's coming up on the

1010
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 3: joint bank account, and then you know, they decide what

1011
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: they want to do after that initial consultation.

1012
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: Do they want to proceed?

1013
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 3: If they do, then there's going to be a separation

1014
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 3: of finances, you know, at least an interim one.

1015
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 2: Probably, But yeah, absolutely that issue does come up for us.

1016
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: But it's okay because if you're in that situation, just

1017
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 2: ask the question. You've got to ask the questions. Don't

1018
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 2: say oh, I can't see a lawyer. You can. There

1019
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 2: is a way. You just need to start looking. Because

1020
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: this podcast is obviously national. It's not in Victoria. There's

1021
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: this specific firm. Just start doing some googling, ask around.

1022
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: And it's national. It's a national jurisdiction family law. So absolutely,

1023
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 3: just pick up the phone, start the conversation. Knowledge is

1024
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 3: power at the end of the day. And you know,

1025
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 3: I have clients come to me in that initial consultation

1026
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 3: and say, oh, my husband said I wasn't going to

1027
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 3: get anything.

1028
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 2: Of course, prefer you guys, not to go and get

1029
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 2: somebody who's going to back you exactly.

1030
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 3: And so you know, once they have that initial consultation,

1031
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 3: they just feel so relieved that they've had the advice

1032
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 3: that they are going to get something. Yeah, all depends

1033
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 3: on that five step analysis that we need to go

1034
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 3: through to work out, you know, what the percentage is

1035
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 3: going to be. So yeah, I couldn't stress enough get

1036
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 3: in to see a lawyer at least for that initial advice.

1037
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And one last question before we finish up, Claire,

1038
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: you've worked inside the system for literally years handed the

1039
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 2: power today to rewrite any part of Australia's family law

1040
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: to better protect women financially. What are you changing? First look,

1041
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 2: I think.

1042
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: Because this is sort of on my mind at the moment,

1043
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 3: is I would probably change the law in respect of

1044
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 3: the contributions for females.

1045
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: Where I thought you would go there, Yeah, I was

1046
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: talking about that's on my mind at the moment.

1047
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 3: So, and I've had quite a few clients I've acted

1048
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 3: for and I've seen the impact that it's had on

1049
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 3: their financial situation, you know, and the fact that they

1050
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 3: haven't been able to receive a greater proportion of the

1051
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 3: asset pool based on those I guess double contributions that

1052
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 3: they've made.

1053
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: So I would love to see a case that challenged

1054
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 2: that position. If you're in the situation where you can

1055
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: fund that, call me exactly so that you know, women

1056
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: get what they're entitled to at the end of the day, exactly.

1057
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 2: And I hate the fact that a precedence has to

1058
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: be set, I know, like, can't we just change the law? No,

1059
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 2: sadly not. No. I'm sure it will happen though it will.

1060
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: We've just got to be patient. It has been so

1061
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: lovely having you on the podcast today. Thank you for

1062
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: sharing your time and your brain with us. This has

1063
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 2: been honestly a much needed conversation that I know our

1064
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,439
Speaker 2: community is going to get a lot out of, whether

1065
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: they're thinking about it, whether they're never going to think

1066
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 2: about it. Like having this information is power not just

1067
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: for you in your situation, but like imagine if you're

1068
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: out for brunch with a girlfriend and she goes, I

1069
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 2: don't know how to tell you. I think I'm going

1070
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: to divorce, justin like great, So there's this five step

1071
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: process and here's a podcast, and that podcast has a

1072
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 2: resource on their website for free. Like how empowering to

1073
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 2: have these conversations as women. I just I'm really grateful

1074
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: to have had you on the show. Thank you so

1075
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 2: much for having me. I really appreciate it, and I've

1076
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. Oh it was it was fun. I want

1077
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: to talk more about divorce, but like in like the

1078
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 2: pervy way, like there's just so many questions I have.

1079
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 2: I'm always available, just sit down, say less, guys. Of course,

1080
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 2: I will put all of Claire's links in the show

1081
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 2: notes so that you can find her. But if you

1082
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: do have more questions about money and about relationships. Please

1083
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: lead them in the comments on Spotify. I might just

1084
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 2: be able to convince Claire to come back and answer

1085
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 2: them for us. And if this episode opened your eyes,

1086
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: I would love it if you could share it with

1087
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 2: the women in your life so that we can all

1088
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: be better protected and better prepared. We'll see you on Friday, guys.

1089
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 4: The advice shared on She's on the Money is general

1090
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 4: in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's

1091
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 4: on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should

1092
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 4: not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.

1093
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 4: If you do choose to buy a financial product, read

1094
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 4: the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards

1095
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 4: your needs.

1096
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 2: Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives

1097
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: of Money showper pty Ltd ABN three two one IS

1098
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 2: six four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL four

1099
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: five one two eight nine.

1100
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 1: He will be