1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: We all know how important learning is for our career, 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: for our identity, for our sense of personal satisfaction, and 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time thinking about what we 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: should learn. Should I focus on softer heart skills, Should 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: I know my master's degree? Should I find a mentor? 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: But what most of us don't spend a lot of 7 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: time thinking about is how we learn. And if you're 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: listening to how I work in a way, you're also 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: listening to how I learn, because it's such an important 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: part of your working life. Someone who does spend a 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about how we learn is doctor 12 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: Ruth Gotian. Ruth is the author of The Success Factor, 13 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: which is the culmination of her obsession with high achievers 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: and how they became so good at what they do. 15 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: She's also the Chief Learning Officer in Anisiology at while 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: Cornell Medicine and the former Assistant Dean of Mentoring and 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: executive director at the Mentoring Academy. If anyone can teach 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: you a thing or two about learning, it's Ruth. So 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: why does Ruth believe that assigned mentor relationships rarely work out? 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: And how has she. 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: Found the most impactful mentors in her life? And why 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 1: does Ruth recommend that you should never ever ask someone 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: to be your mentor. My name is doctor Amantha imb 24 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 25 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work a show 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: about how to help you do your best work. Ruth 27 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: told me that one of the most important mentoring relationships 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: she has had in her career was with doctor Bert Shapiro, 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: and I wanted to know how such a pivotal relationship 30 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: came about. Ruth, I want to start with mentoring because 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: that's played a really big part in your work and 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,919 Speaker 1: mentioned doctor Bert Shapiro quite a few times in your book, 33 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: and I'd love to know how did that mentoring relationship start. 34 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: So it's really interesting. I used to run what's called 35 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: an MDPHD program. My students would get the dual degrees, 36 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: the dual MD degree and the PhD degree. And in 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: the United States it's the government, the National Institutes of 38 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: Health that pays for it because there's a real dearth 39 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: of physician scientists, and physician scientists are physicians who also 40 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: do research and they approach problems differently. Doctor Bert Shapiro 41 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: was the person at the national Institutes of Health that 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: essentially controlled our purse strings. He decided the how well 43 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: each program was doing at its mission. He was the 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: one who helped decide who was getting how much money. 45 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: He was really. 46 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: A powerful, powerful person. But he is also one of 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: the most brilliant people I have ever met. And at 48 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: all of our national conferences when he was there, I 49 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: would find myself always talking to him less about work 50 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: and more about life, And very quickly he started just 51 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: giving me this sage advice which was timeless, and over 52 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: the years, over the decades, he just really was my 53 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: sounding board for so many things, and he was my 54 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: biggest supporter. And when I was doing something right, he 55 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: would congratulate me, and when I was going down a 56 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: slippery slope he would tell me. So I found that 57 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: just so enlightening and rewarding, And over the years he's 58 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: just really been one of the dear people that I 59 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: go to for guidance. 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: So it sounds like there was never this formal start 61 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: to the mentoring real lifeationship per se. It just kind 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: of evolved into that. Is that right? 63 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, because the assigned mentors 64 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: rarely work out. Why is that well, because they're so random. 65 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: I mean, what are they based on our hometown, our 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: favorite color, or where we went to school. I mean, 67 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: is everyone from Australia the same? I don't think so. 68 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: So why would we just match to Australians together. It 69 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: just doesn't make any sense. You really need to develop 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: a relationship with the person. And it's you know, I say, 71 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: it's just like dating. When you first meet someone, you 72 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: don't ask them to marry you. You develop a relationship. 73 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: See if this is someone who you know, like and trust. 74 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: And that's what I did with doctor Burt Shapiro. That's 75 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: what I have done with every single one of my mentors, 76 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: because I have many, And it's really this relationship that's 77 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: developed over time. You don't ask for anything. You just 78 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: see if you know like and trust each other, it 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: it happens organically. Those are the best mentoring relationships. 80 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: Oh, I can so relate. Like there have been a 81 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: couple of occasions in my career where I have been 82 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: matched with a mentor and you're absolutely right, the relationship 83 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: did not work. And I think about the people that 84 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: I go to now for super wise counsel and they 85 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: are absolutely what you described their relationships that have evolved. 86 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: So then when you're going into a chat or a 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: coffee or a meeting with one of your mentors, how 88 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: are you preparing for that? 89 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: I really have a goal, and this is really what 90 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 2: I try to tell people. You can have plenty of 91 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: coffee chats, but they have to there has to be 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: a goal of the conversation. Is there something that you 93 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: want to learn? If it's someone who you're meeting with 94 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: them not as a catcher, but you're meeting with them 95 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: for a mentoring discussion. And I always tell people you 96 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: never call the person a mentor. You never ask somebody 97 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: to be your mentor, because that is asking them to 98 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: take on another job or another obligation. Instead, you want 99 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: to ask them for their perspective on something. Can I 100 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: get your thoughts on something? Can I hear what you 101 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: have to say about something? I really want to tap 102 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 2: into your experience, because I'm kind of stuck and I 103 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: was wondering what you think I should consider as my 104 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: next step. That's a whole lot better than help me 105 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: with the next stage in my career. Who do I 106 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: even begin with that? So you have to come ready 107 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 2: to that conversation. 108 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: How do you approach a cold reach out, And I'm 109 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: not sure if I'm assuming that you do cold reach outs, 110 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: and you must have for the process of writing your book, 111 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: So what's your strategy there, perhaps when you're looking to 112 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: get some advice from someone that you don't know, and 113 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: particularly like when let's say, when you're you know, punching 114 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: above your weight, if that makes sense, which is. 115 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: Every day for me. I mean, I study extreme high achievers, 116 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: so every day I'm reaching out to people who are 117 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: way above my intellect and my achievement. Most of the 118 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: people in the book the success Factor, and they are 119 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: very much household names from every industry from science to 120 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: sports to business. And usually I have a connection with 121 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: somebody who knows them, and I would ask them for 122 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: those introductions because those are people who know, like and 123 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: trust me and they can vouch for me. But for 124 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: those cold, those cold outreaches that I have, I never 125 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: ask them for anything. Ever. I try to offer something 126 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: before I ever ask for anything, because why should they 127 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: give me anything, even their time, which is their most 128 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: precious resource. They don't even know me. I have to 129 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: really prove my worth. That is the most important. And 130 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: when you prove your worth to somebody. They want to 131 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: help you. That's why half of the Nobel Prize winners 132 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: were actually mentored by other Nobel Prize winners. Somebody saw 133 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: their worth. 134 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: Can you give some examples of what you have given 135 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: to initially build that trust. 136 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: One Nobel Prize winner who launched his own book, Brilliant Scientist, 137 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: I mean brilliant, he won the Nobel. He doesn't know 138 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: the first thing about marketing a book, not the first thing. 139 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: He was only reaching out within his network. He didn't 140 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: even consider doing anything on social media, didn't even know 141 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: about doing podcasts. And we started talking about that quite 142 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: a bit, and I said, you know, if you really 143 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: want to expand your reach, you should consider social media, 144 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: on podcasts and so on. And say He's like, well, 145 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: how do I even get to those people? And that's 146 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: when I was able to offer those introductions little old 147 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: me to a Nobel Prize winner. Now we're in regular 148 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: communication about it, because now I can make that introduction. Afterwards, 149 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: I could say how did it go, what did you think, 150 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: what was the toughest question, what were you prepared for? 151 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 2: What were you not? Now we have a whole discussion going. 152 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: Wow. 153 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: So there's so many ways that you can offer something. 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: I love that example. I'd love to know a couple 155 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: of other examples. I even, just for my eye selfish 156 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: raisins to steal. 157 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: So I have reached out to different people who wrote 158 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: articles on topics that I was fascinated about and I 159 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: really wanted to learn more and get inside their head. 160 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: And I would really reach out to them and I 161 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: would say, I love the article that you wrote about 162 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: such and such. It reminded me about the article I 163 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: read by so and so. Here's the link. I do 164 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: quite a bit of work on this. Hope you enjoy 165 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: the article. And now we start to engage a few 166 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: more times, not enough that I'm stalking them, but enough 167 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: that I am now on their radar. And now all 168 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: of a sudden we can have these regular communications. I mean, 169 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: look at the two of us. Yeah, what was our conversation. 170 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: We looked for a common thread, and you always want 171 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: to find that common thread with people, whatever it is. 172 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: I once spoke to someone, I had a zoom meeting 173 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: with someone, and I saw in the back of the 174 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: room there that he was zooming in from all of 175 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: these trophies. Now I recognize what these trophies were because 176 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: I sat for endless hours on cold metal chairs in 177 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: a karate dojo as my kids were earning their black belts, 178 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 2: and I knew that these three foot troph fees could 179 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: only be for martial arts. So I said to him, 180 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: I said, what kind of martial arts do you do? 181 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: Because I knew I knew that's what they were. And 182 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: he said, how did you know? So I said, I 183 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: sat on those cold, hard metal chairs for hours and hours, 184 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: and then we started getting into what style of karate 185 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 2: do you do? And we got into this whole discussion. 186 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: You want to find that common thread. The two of 187 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 2: us actually met in the green room of the Thinkers 188 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: fifty Awards gala. Right, we have yet to meet in person. 189 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: It would have been so much fun if we could 190 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: actually meet in London, but we met on a zoom 191 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: green room and that's when we were able to connect. 192 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: That was our common thread. So I think everyone needs 193 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: to be able to find that common thread, and it 194 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: could be anything I talked to somebody. To an olympian, 195 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: our common thread was her blue glasses, which happened to 196 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: be my favorite color. And she was actually this as 197 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: an Olympian. She was actually facing a challenge with a 198 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: difficult conversation that she needed to have with her boss, 199 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: and we actually talked through how to be able to 200 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: have that conversation. This was something that as an outsider, 201 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: it seemed very obvious to me, but she was so 202 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: deep in it she couldn't see it. She could get 203 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: to the Olympics, but she couldn't have this difficult conversation. 204 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: But yet we bonded over the color blue. So you 205 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: always look for that common thread. It's not so difficult. 206 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: You just have to try. 207 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: Now, I know that goal setting is very important to you, 208 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: and you look quite far out, I believe five years out. 209 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what is your process for even 210 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: just imagining what you want to be doing and aiming 211 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: for in five years. 212 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: Well, I definitely, you know, I do have my daily goals, 213 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: my weekly goals, but I definitely have things that I 214 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: want to accomplish within five years. My goals fit on 215 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 2: a post it note, literally on a post it note, 216 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: and it's bullets, it's not paragraphs. And that post it note, 217 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: that three x three post it note is right over 218 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: my desk and I look at it every single day, 219 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: and every time I'm asked to take on another task. 220 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: I want to know is it going to help me 221 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: achieve those goals? Now, what I do is I look 222 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: at those goals and I reverse engineer the process that 223 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: it's going to take to get there. And if I 224 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: have a goal to do this particular thing this year 225 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: or within five years, I need to ask myself what 226 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: are the milestones that I need to hit in order 227 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: to achieve that goal? And then I take actionable steps 228 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: to actually achieve those milestones. Block that time off on 229 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 2: my calendar, and every time I hit a milestone, I 230 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: reward myself. That's actually how I wrote a book during 231 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: a pandemic while morning the loss of my dad. 232 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Wow. Can I ask for and I'm 233 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: sorry to hear about your dad? 234 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: Thank you? 235 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: Can I ask for an example of one of those 236 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: things that is written on your post it note? 237 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: Yes, within five years, I want to write two books, 238 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: and I already finished the first one and I already 239 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: have proposals for two more. Wow, so well on my way. 240 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: When you look at it, you can't ignore it. 241 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very concrete. How do you decide on your goals? 242 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: How do you decide on what goes on this little 243 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: post it note? 244 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: Well, things get written and things get taken off. It's 245 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: not just because it's written on the post note that 246 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: I must do it. It's just this is what I think 247 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: I really want as a goal, and after a while 248 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: you might decide that it doesn't work for you. I 249 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: have to see where my passions lie because I think 250 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: finding your passionate purpose is very important and being able 251 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: to do that and figure out what to do with 252 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: your passion is very important. So I know that I 253 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: love to bring theory and practice and teach people how 254 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: to actually do it. And what are the ways that 255 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: I can do it. I can do it through writing, 256 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: I can do it through speaking. So being able to 257 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: do that goes on my goal list. There are other 258 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: ways that I can do it that used to be 259 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: on my goal list that aren't there anymore because I 260 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: realized that's not right for me, that's not the right 261 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: platform for me. So it's figuring out what it is 262 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: as it relates to your passion and what do I 263 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: need to do there and if it doesn't feel right anymore, 264 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: take it off, replace it with something else. 265 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: How do you break down one of your five year 266 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: goals into like what you're working on today? 267 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I really my calendar is so critical because 268 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: I have things that I need to do, and then 269 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: when do I need to do it. So I have 270 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: a book coming out and I'm writing. I do a 271 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: lot of writing of articles, and I literally had five 272 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: articles that I needed to finish in a seven day period. 273 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: That's insane, that's absolutely insane. But I started. I know 274 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 2: that I'm a morning person, so I woke up on 275 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: the weekend super early before anybody else in the house 276 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: woke up. By the time they woke up, I finished 277 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: two of them. The first draft, I finished two of 278 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: them because I learned to leverage my pea cognitive hours. 279 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: The next day, I was a little slower and a 280 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: little sloppy. It took me all day to finish one 281 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: all day. And then the next day I knew that 282 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: I was sort of losing steam because you need these breaks. 283 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: So I started just putting in breaks. Do this section, 284 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: then do this section, then do this section. I've already 285 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: finished four out of five and I still have three 286 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: days to go. 287 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing. Oh my gosh. Now your goals, the 288 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: ones that you've talked about are centered around I guess 289 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: thought leadership and I'd love to know. I feel like 290 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: in the last decade there's been this explosion of maybe 291 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: self titled thought leaders, and i'd love to know what 292 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: does being a thought leader mean to you? Like, how 293 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 1: do you define it? 294 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: It's so interesting that you say that, because the first 295 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: time I heard that freeze. Let me back up. I 296 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: was forty three when I went back to school to 297 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: get my doctorate, and I was at Columbia University Teachers 298 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: College in New York, and I was walking the halls 299 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: and I bumped into a friend of mine who I 300 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: hadn't seen in a while, and we started talking, and 301 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: we started talking about what we want to do after 302 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: we get our degrees. And he said to me, well, 303 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: what do you want to be a thought leader in? 304 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: And I said, I don't even think I know what 305 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: a thought leader is. And he said to me, well, 306 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: it's what you're uniquely qualified to do, what someone would 307 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: approach you as being an expert in. And I said, well, 308 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: I think I've done many things. I don't know that 309 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: I'm a thought leader in any of those things. And 310 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: that's when I realized that just doing something doesn't make 311 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 2: you a thought leader. It's pushing what we know to 312 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: be true and creating a paradigm shift in the way 313 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: we look at things, think about things, process things. That's 314 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: what makes you a thought leader. Never really sure I 315 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: became one, but I decided to shift what I was doing. 316 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: Not just regurgitate what other people were doing, but how 317 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: can I look at it in a new way. One 318 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 2: of my mentors, doctor Marivolp, she said to me, there 319 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 2: is nothing new under the sun. What's new is how 320 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 2: you look at it. So I had to look at 321 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: things in the new way. And going back to that. 322 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: My other mentor, who you said at the top of 323 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 2: the program, doctor Burt Shapiro. He said to me, do 324 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 2: something important, not just interesting, because if it's interesting, it's 325 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: interesting to you. If it's important, it'll have a ripple 326 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 2: effect and it'll have impact. You're going at something in 327 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 2: a way and you're attacking it in a way that 328 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: no one else has. This has the potential to be 329 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 2: big because it's a brand new terrain. So make it important, 330 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 2: not just interesting. And I think doing that, going on 331 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: that new terrain, looking at things in a different way, 332 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: but also teaching people how to apply it. That is 333 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: how you can be a thought leader. I don't know 334 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: that I ever got there, but I'm still trying. 335 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: I love that distinction between important and interesting. I'm definitely 336 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: I'm definitely going to remember that one. How do you 337 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: work on your goal around thought leadership every day? Like 338 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: there routines that you have, for example, that kind of 339 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: keep you, keep you going and keep you honest to 340 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: that goal. 341 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I am very very strict with routines. It 342 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 2: just if I don't have my routines every day, I 343 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: sort of get flustered. So it really helps me not 344 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: waste time. And I really have my days where I 345 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: need to binge Netflix. We all do, But on my 346 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: days that are my productive days, I actually make sure 347 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 2: I have systems in place to keep them productive. So, 348 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: for example, I am a morning person, so I told 349 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: you I leverage that time to do deep cognitive work, 350 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: which for me is writing, editing, budget work. I don't 351 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 2: do my passive tasks during my peak cognitive hours. I'm 352 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: not paying bills in the morning, I'm not doing zoom 353 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: or emails or phone calls in the morning. Those are 354 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: saved for the afternoon when I'm a little slower, a 355 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 2: little more sluggish, a little bit more tired. I don't 356 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: want to waste a single minute of my p cognitive hours. 357 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 2: The other thing that I did about a year and 358 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: a half ago, which for me changed everything, I shut 359 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: off all notifications on my phone. My phone is always 360 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: on silent. I really don't need to know if somebody 361 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: likes or engages with my social media post. It's really 362 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 2: not life altering. Nothing is critical or that time sensitive. 363 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: I look at my social media during those passive hours 364 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: the afternoon, in the evening, when I'm more tired. My phone, 365 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 2: I told you, is always on silent. It only rings, 366 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: and this is a feature on Apple. It only rings 367 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 2: for people who are designated with the emergency override button, 368 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: which in my case is my husband and my children. 369 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: That's it. Nobody else gets that override because it can't 370 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: be life and death. Unless it's life and death, my 371 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: phone shouldn't be ringing. And then you have to just 372 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 2: be consistent. So if you want to be known as 373 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: a thought leader, you really have to produce content because 374 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 2: people need to hear and understand and process with what 375 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 2: you're saying. So I made it part of my routine 376 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: where every Monday night, I have a guest on my 377 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: show called Optimizing your success. People know it's going to 378 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: be a high achiever that's coming on every Tuesday at 379 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 2: eight fifteen in the morning, New York time. I have 380 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 2: an article published in Forbes once a month. I have 381 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: an article published in Psychology Today, and that's an addition 382 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 2: to all of the other sporadic articles that I have 383 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 2: in both academic journals and lay journals, because when those 384 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: get published, that's less in my control. So being able 385 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: to have control over certain things certainly helps. And then 386 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: I always surround myself with people who are better than 387 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 2: I am, who I can learn from, and in my 388 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: case that's not so hard because I work with the 389 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: most tremendous, incredible people ever. I also regularly get to 390 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: interview extreme high achievers, the astronauts and Nobel Prize winners, 391 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: the Olympic champions, and trust me, every day I learned 392 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: something from them. I'm also surrounded by these management thingers, 393 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: these authors, these coaches, these mentors, and I listen to 394 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: them every day, every single day that I get a 395 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: chance to. And I have a well, I don't have 396 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 2: a to do list. I have time on my calendar 397 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 2: blocked for things that I need to do, so it's 398 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 2: not just listed on a to do list. I actually 399 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: block the time on my calendar to do it. And 400 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 2: that's anything from responding to an email to reviewing a 401 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: manuscript or the TASSA in the calendar. It's very, very methodical. 402 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: We will be back with Ruth shortly and we'll get 403 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: to hear about how, despite sounding quite superhuman, she does 404 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: actually procrastinate, and I ask her about what she does 405 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: to overcome it. Now I feel looking for more tips 406 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: to improve the way that you work. I write a 407 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've 408 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: discovered that helped me work better. You can sign up 409 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: for that at Howiwork dot co. That's how I work 410 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: dot co. Now, procrastination, what do you do when you 411 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: find yourself procrastinating? 412 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: So I do procrastinate, and we procrastinate on things that 413 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: we don't enjoy doing. So I actually carry about time 414 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: to do those things. And I said, this is the 415 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: alloted time I carved it out on my calendar. You 416 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: know that I live by my calendar, and it's only 417 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: for a finite period of time and then I'm done 418 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 2: and I don't go back to it. It doesn't have 419 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 2: to be better it doesn't have to be perfect, it 420 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: just needs to be done. The things I enjoy doing, well, 421 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: probably I will work until it's as close to perfect 422 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: as I can get it. The things I don't enjoy doing, 423 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: it's got to be good and it's got to be done, 424 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: and learning that sometimes doing B plus A minus work 425 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: for things you don't enjoy doing is just fine. 426 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: Now, if I want to look at the board on 427 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: the wall that is beside you, I would see a 428 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: huge patchwork of post it notes. Can you tell me 429 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: about your system for organizing what you're doing. 430 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: Yes, So I'm an academic. I'm a faculty member, so 431 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: I am often working on multiple articles at the same time. 432 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 2: I think now I have about twelve or seventeen articles. 433 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 2: Each one is in a different level of completion, So 434 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: there's actually nine different columns of all the steps that 435 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: I have to go through, everything from the idea to 436 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: getting internal review board approval, data collection, data analysis, the writing, 437 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: the submission, awaiting review revision, and then finally publishing. Every 438 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: article gets its own post it note. It has the 439 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: name of the person and who the authors are, what 440 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 2: journal I'm submitting it to, and some of them have 441 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 2: a red star on it. The red star actually means 442 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: that I'm the first author, which in academia is a 443 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 2: very big deal. And as we move through the different stages, 444 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 2: I take the post it note and I move it 445 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 2: a column to the right, and there is a real 446 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: visceral response when you physically move that post it note 447 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: a column to the right. I've tried the electronic versions 448 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: of it. I didn't get that visceral response, which is 449 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 2: what I needed so so badly. So I use that. 450 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: And when you get to the final end where something's 451 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 2: accepted and it's going to be published, that is you 452 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: put that post it note, put on that last column 453 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: to the right, and it's sort of you pump your 454 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: hands up in the air because you did it. You 455 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,239 Speaker 2: got through all of the stages, you got to that 456 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: last point. 457 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: What do you do to celebrate or reward yourself. 458 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 2: It's so interesting because this is really funny. So my 459 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 2: doctoral dissertations, a qualitative dissertation, which is hundreds of pages long. 460 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 2: You can't do that in one sitting. You write it 461 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: over several months. But when you're working full time and 462 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 2: raising a family and also writing a dissertation, you write 463 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: things by section and every time I finish a section, 464 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: I rewarded myself. Now, I would be broke if I 465 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: rewarded myself with something expensive or a new outfit or 466 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: a new pair of shoes, and I would be three 467 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: hundred pounds if I always reward myself with ice cream. 468 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: So every time I finished a section, I would reward 469 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: myself with a manicure. Didn't cost a lot of money, 470 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: made me feel like a queen, made me feel pampered. 471 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: I had the best looking hands of any graduate student. 472 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 2: And that's something that I still do now, is I 473 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: look for these little ways to just pamper myself a 474 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: little bit so that I can keep going, because sometimes 475 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: you can get stuck. Sometimes you get the steam just 476 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: you know, blown right out of you. And this really helps. 477 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: I'm not going to stop now because if I write 478 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,719 Speaker 2: just three more paragraphs, I get to cavin manicure. So 479 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: that's how you keep pushing through it. 480 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can relate to that. I know. Yeah, 481 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: I know, not with manicures actually, but with massages. Like 482 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: whenever I go get a massage, like a remedial massage, 483 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, like a spar kind of place, I'm always 484 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: like I should do this more often, and so when 485 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: I was writing the book that I have now finished, 486 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: it will come out in a few months. I set 487 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: myself these kind of chunky goals and I'm like, I 488 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: get to have a massage when I, you know, write 489 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: the next ten thousand words or whatever it would be. 490 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: And and I'm not someone that rewards myself very often 491 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: for doing things or hitting goals in work. But yeah, 492 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: changing my process I found incredibly motivating us. 493 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: Yes, and ten thousand words, Yes, that's definitely that. You 494 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: definitely had an assigned. 495 00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: With massage worthy. Now, learning is a big part of 496 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: what you do, and I would love to know how 497 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: do you decide what books to read? 498 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: Hm, I am actually always reading three at the same time. Yeah, so, 499 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: and I read them in different platforms. So leadership books 500 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: my background's and adult learning and leadership. So I always 501 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 2: want to read what the next big thing is, the 502 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: next big idea. The leadership books I want in print 503 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: because I highlight, I write in the margins, I actually 504 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 2: take notes on each chapter. So those are the leadership 505 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: books and I read those. I have a long commute 506 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: to work, so I'm also reading on audible. I listen 507 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: to books and that's a lot of autobiographies and things 508 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: that I don't really need to take notes on. It's 509 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: big ideas but don't always have application. And then on 510 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: my kindle is stuff for pure pleasure. What I use 511 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: just to quiet my mind. There's no note taking, there's 512 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: no thinking. It's just to transport myself to this alternate 513 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 2: reality so that I can quiet my mind. And that's 514 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 2: on my kindle. So I'm always reading three at the 515 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: same time, print, Audible, and Kindle. 516 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: So it sounds like the print book is the book 517 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: where I guess the learning or the application of what 518 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: you're reading is greatest for your work? 519 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: What for sure? 520 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's your process for capturing what you learn from 521 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: a book? 522 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 2: So I actually, as I say, I take a lot 523 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: of notes, I highlight. I literally have papers for each 524 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: chapter and I'm writing notes. And then what I do, 525 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: because I write for Forbes and other such periodicals, I 526 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: will actually use some of what I have learned from 527 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: that if I like it, and use it in some 528 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: of the articles that I write. I write a lot 529 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: about success and leadership development and start to live what 530 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: is written. Now very often I will reach out to 531 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: the authors because I want to know what is this 532 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: based on is this based on your idea in the 533 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 2: shower or was this some research that was done. So 534 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: I will actually reach out to the authors and really 535 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 2: talk to them about it, about how did this come about, 536 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: how did you get this idea, how did you figure 537 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 2: this out? How did you test it? So I do 538 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: have those conversations because I actually learn as much as 539 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: I read, and I read seventy to one hundred books 540 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: a year. As much as I read, I still learn 541 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: best by talking. I need to talk and listen, talk 542 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: and listen, talk and listen. So having that conversation with 543 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: the author is fascinating. Sally, I don't have the time 544 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: or the bandwidth for book clubs, but I find that 545 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: talking with the authors and listening to the authors for 546 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: me is the best learning opportunity. 547 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: Now, you obviously talked to you a range of amazing, 548 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: highly successful, accomplished people through what you do, and you 549 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: know we've covered a lot of your different strategies. I'd 550 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: love to know what are some of the more unique, 551 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: quirky novel strategies that you've picked up over your time 552 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: speaking to some of these amazing people. 553 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 2: So something that really resonated with me was taught to 554 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: me by doctor Peggy Whitson, who was the She's an astronaut, 555 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 2: former chief astronaut for NASA and spent more decent space 556 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: than any American astronaut of any gender. And she was 557 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: also the commander of the International Space Station. And we 558 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: were talking about mundane tasks, and she said to me, 559 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: with mundane tasks, just make it a competition. Whatever time 560 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: you have allotted for it, see if you can beat 561 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: that time, whatever it is, see if you can beat it. 562 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 2: Because now all of a sudden, it's challenge. It's not 563 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: something you have to do. It becomes a challenge. And 564 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: I've been trying that and I have to tell you 565 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: it makes a difference. It really really makes a difference. 566 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: And then from Apollo anton Ono, who is the most 567 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 2: decorated Winter Olympian, he taught me that you need to 568 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 2: learn things not just from your sport, but from other 569 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 2: industries as well, which I've known, but hearing how a 570 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: top olympian does it, I thought was fascinating. He read 571 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: every book he could get in his hands on improving 572 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 2: his performance, improving his sleep, improving his flow state, improving 573 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: his nutrition. He would surround himself and talk to people 574 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 2: who would actually help him with all of that. So 575 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 2: I think there's something that we can learn from all 576 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 2: of these people. The other thing that I really learned 577 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: from them is that they fear not trying more than 578 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 2: they fear failing. And that, to me was the biggest 579 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 2: shift in my thinking because very often you hear people 580 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: who are free to fail, and you hear people who 581 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 2: are a free to succeed, But how often do we 582 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 2: hear of people who fear not trying? And that is 583 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: what I wanted to start doing. I wanted to fear 584 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: not trying more than I feared failing. 585 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: Ruth, what is the best way for people who've listened 586 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: to this conversation and want to consume more of what 587 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: you are putting out into the world. 588 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: Well, my book, The Success Factor is out now. It 589 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 2: is out everywhere wherever you love buying books. If you 590 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 2: want to know where you can find it anywhere in 591 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 2: the world, just go to Ruthgotian dot com, slash book 592 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: and social media is just my name, Ruth Gotian. 593 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: I just love the advice that doctor Shapiro gave to 594 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: Ruth to do something important, not just interesting, and as 595 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: someone who tries to be the thought leader myself is 596 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: really resonated with me almost just criteria about whether an 597 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: idea or a project is worth pursuing, or even at 598 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: a micro level, whether an article of blog post is 599 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: worth writing. Now, if you are not a subscriber or 600 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 1: follower of How I Work, now might be the time 601 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: to hit the followers subscribe button, because next week I'm 602 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: very excited to have Zoe Chance on the show, who 603 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about how to use influence as a superpower, 604 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: and she gave me some very very practical and novel 605 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: ways to be more influential and persuasive in how I communicate. 606 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: And I'm sure you will love my chat with Zoe. 607 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support 608 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 609 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba, who does 610 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound 611 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: much better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.