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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now establish a regular bedtime.

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Speaker 3: If you can get them going to bed within about

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Speaker 3: half an hour of that bedtime consistently, it's much healthier

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Speaker 3: for them. It's better for their inhibition, it's better for

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Speaker 3: their impulse control, it's better for their memory, it's better

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Speaker 3: for their body.

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 2: and dad.

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Speaker 1: So the other day I decided to listen to guns and.

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Speaker 3: I love that you're struggling to say I love that

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Speaker 3: you're struggling to say this. So context we've been nominated

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Speaker 3: as has Usher for Best Parenting Podcast in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Everybody calls them for the last name everybody knows it's I.

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Speaker 3: Knew him when he used to work for Brisbanes being

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Speaker 3: on A five and his name on air was Spidey.

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Speaker 3: I remember the name, okay, well, but but Osher Ginsburg Okay,

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Speaker 3: So I love the you struggle to say that.

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Speaker 2: But the other day we were talking about Ran.

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Speaker 3: Reynolds and his wife and I said, Blake Lively and

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Speaker 3: you gave me a really hard time. After the podcast

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Speaker 3: was finished and You're like, it's not lively, it's lively.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't even know.

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Speaker 3: Reminds me of that great Jackie Chan clip that's become

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Speaker 3: a me meme when he runs into the room and

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Speaker 3: he says cheese instead of freeze. Got the gun runs

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Speaker 3: and it says.

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Speaker 1: A free Anyway, we digress. I was listening to his

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Speaker 1: podcast because I haven't. I didn't actually even know he

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Speaker 1: had a podcast, So now that we're standing in line

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Speaker 1: with him, I thought it would be, you know, the

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Speaker 1: right thing to do to kind of have a listen.

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Speaker 1: And he and his co host we're talking about bok riding.

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Speaker 2: This is on dad Pod.

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Speaker 1: This is on dad Pod.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Osha loves to ride his bike. I don't

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Speaker 3: think he's quite as serious about as I am.

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Speaker 1: But well he loves speak because he's got a number

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Speaker 1: of bikes, but he's had an injury so he can't

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Speaker 1: ride at the moment. So anyway, they were talking and Charlie,

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Speaker 1: his co host, has just gotten into bike riding. Where

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Speaker 1: he lives, there's not really anywhere to do long rides.

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Speaker 1: He's just committee.

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Speaker 3: There's great riding around where he is, but he's only

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Speaker 3: new to it and so probably doesn't quite know enough.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I digress. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I

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Speaker 2: just don't care about riding.

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Speaker 1: And Charlie is public about the fact that at the

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Speaker 1: moment he's seeking help professionally from a psychologist and just

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of starting to work through some challenges there.

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Speaker 3: And if you'd like to hear more, just go and

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Speaker 3: listen to iher and Charlie talk about it on dad Pod,

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Speaker 3: who have also been nominated And what are you trying

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Speaker 3: to do, like send more people to them that we're

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Speaker 3: supposed to win this award?

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Speaker 1: Come on, But he acknowledged just how much he's loving

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Speaker 1: bike riding and how before he started it, because I

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Speaker 1: should have been encouraging him to get a bike for

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Speaker 1: a long time and he just was like, whatever, I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing that.

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Speaker 2: And you know how he has.

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Speaker 1: Publicly acknowledged that he will never be a mammal.

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Speaker 2: Can I just jump in as well?

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Speaker 3: My bike is back, my bike is rebuilt, my bike

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Speaker 3: has a new paint job, my bike is safe from

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Speaker 3: the undercover car parks. I'm never putting a bike on

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Speaker 3: the roof again. Oh it's so good to have my

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Speaker 3: bike back. Just putting it out there.

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Speaker 1: Then I was just she had a little bit of

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Speaker 1: research around just why riding in particular is so good

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Speaker 1: for your health. There's actually that physicality of forward movement

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Speaker 1: and how that affects our brains. And I was just

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Speaker 1: thinking about how over the last few weeks, since your

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Speaker 1: bike has.

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Speaker 2: Been damaged and indisposed and needing a repair job.

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Speaker 1: In the hospital, how much you have struggled more than usual.

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Speaker 1: And it occurred to me that as I listened to

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Speaker 1: them talk, you know, these two dads just having a

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Speaker 1: bit of a conversation around it, how bike riding has

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Speaker 1: kept you mentally healthy. It's kept you in check, it's

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Speaker 1: given you an outlet, it's given you that adrenaline, and

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Speaker 1: it's just given you a capacity to work through all

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Speaker 1: of the busyness that goes on in that brain of

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Speaker 1: yours outside of the house.

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Speaker 3: So we're like three and a half four minutes into

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Speaker 3: this podcast, and I get the sense to what you're

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Speaker 3: actually doing is you're saying for the last fifteen years,

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Speaker 3: you've been telling me that bike riding is important to you,

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Speaker 3: justin and I've been mad at you for bike riding,

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Speaker 3: but I've listened to osher talk to Charlie about bike riding,

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Speaker 3: and now I'm apologizing to you for giving you a

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Speaker 3: hard time about bike writing.

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Speaker 2: Is that what I'm hearing? Am I hearing?

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Speaker 3: Am I hearing a wife apologizing to her husband publicly

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Speaker 3: and saying you should ride your bike more.

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Speaker 2: You're a nicer person when you're ride. Is that what

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing?

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Speaker 1: You definitely rigize perriding. You're much easier to live with.

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Speaker 1: I think for me as a mum, and I would

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Speaker 1: suggest that lots of mums go through the same process.

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Speaker 1: Right when I feel overwhelmed and I feel busy, the

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Speaker 1: first thing I drop is me time. Yes, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: And over the years as I've listened to you struggle

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Speaker 1: and feel time poor and feel pressured when it comes

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Speaker 1: to work, In my mind, it just makes sense get

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Speaker 1: rid of that, because that's a that's a wishy washy

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of on the want list.

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Speaker 2: It productive.

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Speaker 3: If you've got deadlines, you've got to meet the deadlines.

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Speaker 3: That's right, And I've been saying for years I feel better,

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Speaker 3: I function better when I wake up.

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Speaker 2: At four thirty in the morning and go for a

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Speaker 2: bike ride.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The problem is at the other end when you

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Speaker 1: fall asleep before your head's even hit the pillow. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so anyway, this is my attempt at apologizing. I'm doing

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Speaker 1: it very publicly.

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Speaker 2: You are. I love this. This is amazing.

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Speaker 1: But as I'm learning more about myself and recognizing just

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Speaker 1: how important it is to find a healthy balance between

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Speaker 1: doing things that actually fill my carp yeah, but also

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Speaker 1: being able to be there for my family and do

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Speaker 1: the things that are important to help our family function,

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Speaker 1: I'm recognizing more and more just how important it is

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Speaker 1: for you to have that outlet. And thanks, Hon, I'm

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Speaker 1: letting you know that I won't stop you.

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Speaker 3: Well, I feel much better now that I'm riding my

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Speaker 3: bike again as well as and it's a nice new

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Speaker 3: color because I had to get it repeated because I

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Speaker 3: crashed it into the car park. Let's not talk about

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Speaker 3: that anymore. But I'm so I feel like I've got

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Speaker 3: a brand new bike. I feel like I've got a

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Speaker 3: brand new lease on life now that my bike is

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Speaker 3: back on writing.

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Speaker 2: It's fantastic.

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Speaker 1: But so, I guess the main thing here is that

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Speaker 1: you need to probably thank Gosha.

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Speaker 3: Okay, thanks Osha, Thank you Osha Ginsberg. I do want

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Speaker 3: to I think that ties in neatly with our conversation today,

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Speaker 3: and we've kind of used up way too much time

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Speaker 3: dragging that apology out of you unexpectedly. But our conversation

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Speaker 3: today is how are you supposed to do it all

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Speaker 3: when you're so tired? And I want to talk about

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Speaker 3: sleep today, specifically, I want to talk about how we

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Speaker 3: need to teach our kids to not be as tired

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Speaker 3: as we are. I want to talk about the brain

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Speaker 3: science of sleep. When I'm getting up at four thirty

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Speaker 3: in the morning so that I can go for my

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Speaker 3: bike ride or my surf when the surf is good.

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Speaker 3: By about eight thirty at night, I'm kind of cactus, right,

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty well done.

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Speaker 2: I've had an active day.

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Speaker 3: I've been exercising, and then I've been working and speaking

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Speaker 3: and creating content using my brain and writing books and

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Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff. And then the afternoon it's

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Speaker 3: you and the kids and dinner, and oh my goodness,

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Speaker 3: by the time I get to eight pm, I'm not

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Speaker 3: really doing so well anymore.

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Speaker 2: And so we make a big deal about making time

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Speaker 2: for yourself.

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Speaker 3: And you're the same, right, I mean, you're getting up

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Speaker 3: at about five so that you can have your meditation

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Speaker 3: time and your solitude and your walk and exercise and

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Speaker 3: reading time so that you're ready for the kids once

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Speaker 3: their morning gets underway, and then your day's full on.

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Speaker 3: I mean running the household that we run, and making

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Speaker 3: time for me so we can record podcasts and things.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot that you're balancing and juggling, and so

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Speaker 3: we are incessantly, never endingly exhausted. And I want to

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Speaker 3: talk about this idea of being exhausted being an adult,

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Speaker 3: but also teaching our children to be healthy around their sleep.

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Speaker 3: While I was doing some prep for today's episode, I

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Speaker 3: haven't told you this, but I found a National Geographic

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Speaker 3: article about exhaustion, the history of exhaustion, and what it

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Speaker 3: shows is that for millennia, people have been saying, I'm

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Speaker 3: really tired to get some sleep.

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Speaker 2: I found this.

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Speaker 3: It says in the Middle Ages, the cause of depleted

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Speaker 3: energy was demonic possession. In the eighteenth century, it was

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Speaker 3: excessive I don't know if I should mention this because

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Speaker 3: kids might be listening, but it was excessive self stimulation,

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Speaker 3: I think would be the word that they've used here

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Speaker 3: in the Industrial age. Capitalist fatigue many ages, writes Anna

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Speaker 3: Katerina Schaffner in Exhaustion a History. Many ages tend to

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Speaker 3: present themselves as the most exhausted, as if exhaustion were

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Speaker 3: a badge of honor, and competing for the title of

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Speaker 3: the most shattered was a kind of sport. So exhaustion

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Speaker 3: has been around forever and ever and ever. There are

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Speaker 3: all kinds of cures for exhaustion. I found this really

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Speaker 3: bizarre cure here It said renaissance scholar came up with

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Speaker 3: lots of bizarre recipes for renaissance energy drinks with ingredients

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Speaker 3: like pieces of gold and parts of rare animals. Some

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Speaker 3: theory said you should avoid eating whale flesh. Oh glad

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Speaker 3: we do that, and the others said drinking red wine

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Speaker 3: is harmful. The rest cure was very We aren't advertising

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Speaker 3: lots of milk and lots of red meat. The idea

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Speaker 3: was to fatten up the patient. There was a nasty

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Speaker 3: gender to mention to it, because it was mainly women

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Speaker 3: prescribed to the rescuer. They were isolated from their friends

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Speaker 3: and family and asked to fatten up. You won't be

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Speaker 3: so tired if you rest and fatten yourself up. We

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Speaker 3: know better in twenty twenty two, and I thought we

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Speaker 3: should talk about how we can get our kids and

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Speaker 3: us to be less tired than we are.

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Speaker 1: It's probably completely off topic, but I actually think if

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Speaker 1: we want our children to be less tired than we are,

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Speaker 1: we actually need to model what it means to not

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Speaker 1: run faster than we're capable, to not fill our days

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Speaker 1: with so much that we actually do flop into bed

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Speaker 1: at night.

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Speaker 2: I love the irony of what you've just said.

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Speaker 3: We need to if we want our kids to be

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Speaker 3: less tired than we actually are, we need to show

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Speaker 3: them how to be less tired than we actually are.

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Speaker 1: But like they're watching us, Of course they are. They're

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Speaker 1: watching us and everything we do inevitably as teaching them

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Speaker 1: what we value.

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Speaker 3: Last week in our Doctor's Desk episode, we talked a

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Speaker 3: lot about screens. There was a study that I didn't

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Speaker 3: talk about that I wanted to, but time kind of

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Speaker 3: got the better of us. And it was a study

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Speaker 3: that comes from the University of Maryland. These researchers collected

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Speaker 3: data on eighty three hundred children who were aged nine

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Speaker 3: to ten, and the specific focus of their data collection

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Speaker 3: was how much sleep they got at night and what

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Speaker 3: it meant for their success years later and What the

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Speaker 3: research found was that children who had insufficient sleep that is,

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Speaker 3: less than nine hours per night at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the study had less gray matter or smaller volume in

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Speaker 3: certain areas of the brain responsible for attention, memory, and

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Speaker 3: inhibition control, compared to those with healthy sleep habits, and

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Speaker 3: those differences persisted to two years, which is obviously a

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Speaker 3: really concerning finding, suggesting that long term harm exists when

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Speaker 3: you don't get enough sleep. Like, if you don't have

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Speaker 3: the capacity for attention, you can't focus on what you're learning,

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Speaker 3: you can't remember what you're being taught, you're not going

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Speaker 3: to do well at school, you're not going to do

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Speaker 3: well at life. And then if you've got impulse control

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Speaker 3: issues caused by lack of sleep, you're going to get

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Speaker 3: in trouble. And I mean, it's just it's an absolutely

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Speaker 3: awful prognosis.

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Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like a bit of a checklist for ADHD.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it kind of does, doesn't it, and anxiety as well.

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Speaker 3: So what we really want to emphasize is get enough

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Speaker 3: sleep for kids. Let's say your kids are age between

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Speaker 3: six and twelve years, they really should be getting somewhere

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Speaker 3: around I'm going to say nine to eleven nine or

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Speaker 3: twelve hours of sleep at night, preferably the upper range.

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Speaker 3: Nine is really low. Nine hours is the absolute minimum

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Speaker 3: that they should be getting. You definitely want them getting

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Speaker 3: more than that, and research tells us clearly establish a

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Speaker 3: regular bedtime. If you can get them going to bed

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Speaker 3: within about half an hour of that bed time consistently,

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Speaker 3: it's much healthier for them. It's better for their inhibition,

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Speaker 3: it's better for their impulse control, it's better for their memory,

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Speaker 3: it's better for their their body. So let's say eight

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Speaker 3: pm is bedtime or seven pm is bedtime, six forty

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Speaker 3: five to seven fifteen, keep it within fifteen minutes either side,

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Speaker 3: a total of thirty minutes in and around that bedtime.

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Speaker 2: That's ideal.

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Speaker 3: There's so much data on getting enough sleep and making

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Speaker 3: it consistent every night, same bedtime so important, while still

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Speaker 3: having an appropriate level of flexibility.

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Speaker 1: So we've talked about sleeping on the podcast before. We've

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Speaker 1: focused heavily on just you know how important it is

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Speaker 1: with sleep hygiene to you know that our children get enough.

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Speaker 2: Sleep and how to get them to sleep.

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Speaker 1: But why is sleep so important?

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Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about a couple of things. So

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Speaker 2: it's restorative.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we get our energy back, we're ready for a

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Speaker 3: new day. But something happens in our brain when we sleep.

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Speaker 3: It's like sleep cleans our brain. During the day, our

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Speaker 3: brains are active, they're busy, and they're creating a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of what ultimately becomes waste product, but it can't

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Speaker 3: get rid of it during the day. We need to

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Speaker 3: go to sleep so that during our sleep time the

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Speaker 3: brain can flush itself essentially and prepare itself for a

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Speaker 3: new day. That's what needs to happen during sleep. If

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Speaker 3: we don't get enough sleep, the brain can't flush itself properly.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you wake up in the morning and

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Speaker 3: you really fog, you like everything's hazy and you can't

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Speaker 3: get out of that fog. It's because your brain hasn't

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Speaker 3: had the opportunity to fully flush itself, and we need

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Speaker 3: to go through those those sleep stages. There are four

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Speaker 3: sleep stages, and we've got to go through those stages

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Speaker 3: of sleep a number of times through the night so

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Speaker 3: that our bodies and our brains can function well. When

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Speaker 3: we're asleep, we consolidate memory, we consolidate learning. Our brains

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Speaker 3: prepare us for the next day, and for our lives.

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Speaker 3: It's just so so important that we and our kids

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Speaker 3: are getting enough sleep. We will not cannot function properly

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Speaker 3: on low levels of sleep.

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Speaker 1: So I guess for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 1: wants answers. Now, I'm wondering, how do we help?

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Speaker 2: Well, you said it already. We've got to be good

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Speaker 2: at it ourselves.

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Speaker 3: So long as we as adults getting somewhere around to

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Speaker 3: eight hours, Like once upon a time sleep and being

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Speaker 3: exhausted and saying I only I survive on five hours

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Speaker 3: of sleep night. Once upon a time, that was a

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Speaker 3: medal of honor. I think that we've moved past that

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Speaker 3: quite a lot. Many people that I talk to now

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Speaker 3: are really proud of the fact that they get us

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Speaker 3: solid eight hours, but not enough of us are doing that.

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Speaker 3: So I think the first thing I would say is

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Speaker 3: turn off the screens at least thirty minutes before bed,

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Speaker 3: preferably more, don't look at them at bedtime, just don't

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Speaker 3: and get get your eight hours, Like, how much better

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Speaker 3: are you when we have eight hours of sleep?

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Speaker 1: It's funny I would always have said that I needed

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Speaker 1: more than eight hours sleep, but my body clock literally

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Speaker 1: wakes me up every morning. At the same time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I get my eight hours.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what happens as well when you don't

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Speaker 3: get enough sleep, Like, let's say tonight, we're up late,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot going on, and we only get six hours,

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Speaker 3: and then tomorrow night because life is busy, we get

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Speaker 3: our usual seven and a half hours, and then the

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Speaker 3: next night it's another seven and a half or eight

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Speaker 3: hours or whatever it is. You never quite get back

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Speaker 3: the sleep that you've lost.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you feel like you're in deficit.

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Speaker 3: That's right, And we actually accumulate sleep debt, and that

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Speaker 3: sleep debt is associated with neurological difficulties later in life.

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Speaker 3: There's research that shows that people who are crowding sleep

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Speaker 3: out of their lives, who are treating sleep like it's

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Speaker 3: a luxury item at significant risk compared to those who

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Speaker 3: get enough sleep of physiological brain differences and cognitive markers

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Speaker 3: that suggest problematic outcomes later in life.

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Speaker 2: Like it's just so important.

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Speaker 3: So we don't want to accruse sleep debt because we

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Speaker 3: can never actually pay it off. It's not like you

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Speaker 3: go at the end of the week, Oh, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I missed out on about six hours sleep this week

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Speaker 3: on each night I missed an hour here in half

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Speaker 3: an hour there. So on Saturday, i'm's going to have

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Speaker 3: a big six hour sleep in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: day and catch it up. Doesn't work like that, And

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Speaker 3: if you did, you wouldn't get to sleep on Saturday

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Speaker 3: night because you've slept for six hours during the day.

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Speaker 2: So we've got to be a model of it.

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Speaker 3: Get our eight hours, keep our devices off, establish regular

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Speaker 3: bedtime for us and for our kids. And then, I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is all so perfect in theory and so hard

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Speaker 3: in practice. And then keep things level balanced and even

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Speaker 3: so that the kids can get the sleep they need

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Speaker 3: and we can get the sleep that we need.

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Speaker 2: We'll all be better off for it.

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Speaker 1: So the other night, all of my big children were

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Speaker 1: out of the house, you were away, and it was

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Speaker 1: just me and Emily. Can I tell you that was

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Speaker 1: just the best. Trying to get an eight year old

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Speaker 1: to sleep when you've got a house full of.

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Speaker 2: Teenagers playing music, banging on the body.

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Speaker 1: Clocks and different with each other. It was just blissful.

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Speaker 1: We got to play a game together, we got to

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Speaker 1: read a book together. She went off to sleep peacefully.

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Speaker 1: She woke up just as peacefully the next day. So

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Speaker 1: It just highlights how important that structure and duration of

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Speaker 1: sleep makes such a difference to the outcome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and making the evening nice so that everyone's ready

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Speaker 3: for sleep and willingly going off to all that's right.

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Speaker 1: My house was nice and quiet, the lights were dimmed, it.

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Speaker 2: Was clean, right.

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Speaker 3: Just it make me feel like a nap right now.

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Speaker 3: We so much appreciate that you enjoyed the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so very much for listening.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd

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Speaker 3: like more and fo about how to make your family happier,

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Speaker 3: please visit us on our Facebook page Doctor Justin Colson's

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Speaker 3: Happy Families, or sign up for our Happy Families newsletter

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Speaker 3: at happyfamilies dot com dot a u