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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast. It's Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day,

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Speaker 1: my love, I thank you, You're welcome. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that today's podcast episode has very much at all to

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Speaker 1: do with Valentine's Day. We're going to do our best now,

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Speaker 1: you know what. We're not even going to try to

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Speaker 1: spin it towards Valentine's We had a Valentine's conversation last

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Speaker 1: week on the podcast. That's enough. Today we're just we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with the big issues. We're dealing with some real situations.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who are new to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast, Hello and welcome. My name is doctor Justin Colson.

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Speaker 1: We really appreciate you being here. I'm here with Kylie,

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Speaker 1: my wife from mum to our six children, and our

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Speaker 1: conversation on a Tuesday usually revolves around answering somebody's question.

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Speaker 1: You can email us your questions podcasts at Happy Families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot you. Who are we and why would

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Speaker 1: we be answering your questions? Well, I have a PhD

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Speaker 1: in psychology and have spent the last twenty years learning

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Speaker 1: about how to make families happier and sharing that with

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Speaker 1: other people. I've just finished and submitted my eighth book,

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Speaker 1: which will be on bookshelves in April. I think it's April,

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Speaker 1: maybe May sometime around then, all about the parenting revolution,

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Speaker 1: and well, Kylie, you've helped, you've helped, you've helped them

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Speaker 1: to raise our six daughters.

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Speaker 2: I've helped you.

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Speaker 1: You've helped a cup, I've helped you. I said that,

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Speaker 1: didn't I I actually said that the other day.

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Speaker 2: I was scrolling, Yes, I was scrolling, having some brain

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Speaker 2: numb time out, and I came across this song that

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Speaker 2: this woman's written, and it was just such a beautiful depiction.

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Speaker 1: This one you sent to me about being a good dad, yes,

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Speaker 1: and how much dad helps your house. All right, So

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Speaker 1: I've just looked it up. While you're talking. I've got

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Speaker 1: it because you've sent to me and my messenger. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to play this. It goes about a minute and

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Speaker 1: a half, but it's it's worth it.

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Speaker 3: I did the cooking and the cleaning and the groceries,

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Speaker 3: and the lottery for the cat and the dog, and

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Speaker 3: someone's throw a coffee. Got a gift for your mother

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Speaker 3: that you probably won't like. Peter Belle wiped a buck,

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Speaker 3: broke up a couple of five, just about lost my

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Speaker 3: mind because we both took and hits of the park.

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Speaker 3: And someone said to you, you are such a good dad.

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Speaker 3: You are such a good dad. I woke at five

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Speaker 3: am screaming in the hallway. There was barf in the bed,

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Speaker 3: so another load of laundry. Our kid was crying, so

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Speaker 3: we talked about our feelings. You were sleeping, that's cool.

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Speaker 3: But then you got up and your mom came over

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Speaker 3: and she said, you are such a good dad. You

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Speaker 3: are such a good dad. Such a good dad. I

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Speaker 3: did the bathtime, story time, the peak time, the snack time,

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Speaker 3: I said go to bed just about a million times.

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Speaker 3: Then I sat down to write this song, and you said,

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Speaker 3: did you notice that bowed the lawn? Such a good dad.

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Speaker 3: You are a good dad, good dad, You are such

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Speaker 3: a good dad, such a good dad.

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Speaker 1: You are literally cracking up about that whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, it's the line where he asks whether or

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Speaker 2: not I noticed if he'd mowed the lawn.

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Speaker 1: That just gets me every time. And why why missus

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Speaker 1: happy families? Why would that be the funniest line for

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Speaker 1: you in the song? I'm just I'm just curious.

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Speaker 2: After twenty five years of marriage, I can't count how

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Speaker 2: many times you may have pointed out the good deeds

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Speaker 2: that you've done for the day and hope that you

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Speaker 2: would get a little bit of extra praise and appreciation.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many times I've said, probably every time.

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Speaker 1: Did you notice I made the lawn? Did you notice

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Speaker 1: I made the lawn? I'm such a good dad?

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Speaker 2: Look at the dishes I hung the washing out?

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Speaker 1: Will mean we want to be noticed for our nobility.

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Speaker 1: We want o gosh. Anyway, that's not the purpose of

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Speaker 1: our podcast today, but thanks for raising it. And there

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Speaker 1: we go.

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Speaker 2: Now, well, I'm grateful that you've recognized that I helped

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Speaker 2: you raise our children.

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Speaker 1: Yes, thank you. Now the question the question that needs

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Speaker 1: to be answered. I mean, we're halfway through the podcast.

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Speaker 1: We haven't even gotten the question. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: have to do a really great job for Anna, who

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Speaker 1: has said, my children fight incessantly. It often becomes violent

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Speaker 1: or involves the most hurtful, hateful insults. How do we

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Speaker 1: deal with this without losing our cool, ourselves? And Anna's

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Speaker 1: a number four three girls nine, fourteen, and sixteen and

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Speaker 1: a nudiverse son who is also sixteen asd Adhd and

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Speaker 1: depression so, I mean, the question from Anna is not

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Speaker 1: how do I stop the kids fighting? It's actually how

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Speaker 1: do I deal with it without losing my call? How

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Speaker 1: do I self regulate? But there's a couple of things

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Speaker 1: that we need to talk about in relation to this.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I read it and thought like I

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Speaker 1: felt like this was our life. I'm the parenting expert,

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Speaker 1: I've written all the books, but the kids still fight.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the secrets to stop being sibling rivalry is

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Speaker 1: to not have siblings, and if you have siblings, you

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Speaker 1: can rest assured that they will be fighting. I think

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Speaker 1: there's another thing that I've made mention of this previously

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, but I'll mention it again. The idea

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Speaker 1: that our children will always get along is just an

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Speaker 1: unhelpful expectation. And the reason I say that is because

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Speaker 1: as an adult, how old were you before you finally

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Speaker 1: began to get along with your siblings.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about this a lot over the time we've

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Speaker 2: been podcasting together, but I guess my concern more is

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Speaker 2: that if there is a lack of contention and fighting

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Speaker 2: within any relationship, then how much are we actually being

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Speaker 2: authentic in how we feel? Because the reality is we're all.

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Speaker 2: Every single one of us is individual, and we have

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Speaker 2: different likes and dislikes, and we are not going to

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Speaker 2: agree with everything that everybody's So.

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Speaker 1: It's really about how we navigate those differences. And what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying is the kids are not navigating this well, no,

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Speaker 1: but there is no.

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Speaker 2: If there is no wrestle there in any given relationship,

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Speaker 2: then then one of us isn't being real.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And that's my real point. I don't. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to spell the idea that there is a quick, easy

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Speaker 1: solution for this, because there isn't. I came across a quote.

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Speaker 1: I'm a really big fan of the James Clear newsletter.

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Speaker 1: James Clear, who wrote the book Atomic Habits. He has

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Speaker 1: this newsletter that comes out once a week and it's

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Speaker 1: really bite sized chunks of wisdom, and he shared a

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Speaker 1: quote in a recent newsletter. I think it was the

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Speaker 1: one from Oh yeah, it was the most recent one.

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Speaker 1: A writer by the name of Jeanette Winterson said this

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Speaker 1: about life quote. We live in a society that pedals solutions,

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Speaker 1: whether it's solutions to those extra pounds you're carrying, or

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Speaker 1: do your thinning hair, or do your loss of appetite,

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Speaker 1: loss of love. We're always looking for solutions, but actually

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Speaker 1: what we're engaged in is a process throughout life during

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Speaker 1: which you never get it right. You have to keep

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Speaker 1: being open, you have to keep moving forward, you have

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Speaker 1: to keep finding out who you are and how you're changing,

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Speaker 1: and only that makes life tolerable. So I guess I

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Speaker 1: share that because I want to dispel the idea that

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Speaker 1: we can turn around and give everybody a solution to

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Speaker 1: how to fix this or how to fix that on

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Speaker 1: a podcast, especially when we're going to got ten or

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and it's a time parenting podcast. It's meant

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Speaker 1: to be about quick solutions where we've got them. The reality, though,

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Speaker 1: is that there are things that we can do that

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Speaker 1: can facilitate the process of getting better with conflict in families. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's it.

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Speaker 2: We're actually not going to stop the conflict. What we're

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Speaker 2: doing is helping our children navigate the conflict in our

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Speaker 2: productive ways, as opposed to in this instance, really hurtful

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Speaker 2: and damaging ways.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast or the type

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Speaker 1: or parent who just wants answers. Now, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: some solutions and ways forward with sibling rivalry and conflict.

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Speaker 1: First major point is that your kids already know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you've got kids who are nine and fourteen and

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Speaker 1: sixteen and sixteen, they actually know what's expected. You've taught

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Speaker 1: them explicitly, but it's a process of learning.

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Speaker 2: And you know that they know because they wouldn't actually

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Speaker 2: take this behavior outside of the home in any other relationship.

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Speaker 2: They have learnt the art of respectful in communication and interactions.

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Speaker 2: This is done within the safety of their home.

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Speaker 1: Yep. The second thing that I want to say is

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Speaker 1: just because they know doesn't mean they're going to be

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Speaker 1: good at doing it. It's really hard because high emotion

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Speaker 1: is equals low intelligence. When you're on the brink, you

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Speaker 1: need to stop and think, and we don't do that

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Speaker 1: very well at all when we're super emotional.

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Speaker 2: Well, often the conflict of that is in the home

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Speaker 2: has actually not started in the home. Yeah, Sometimes there

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Speaker 2: is emotional turmoil throughout their day that they're not able

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Speaker 2: to express. They don't feel safe to express with other

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Speaker 2: people because they know what it means to be respectful

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Speaker 2: all of those kinds of things, and they don't know

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Speaker 2: how to navigate that conflict simply or effectively outside the home.

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Speaker 2: So they bring that tension and that anks into the

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Speaker 2: home and then things blow up.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes though it is just a painful sibling, somebody who's

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Speaker 1: been disrespectful to them, and they feel like they need

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Speaker 1: to react and they need to retaliate. So in terms

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Speaker 1: of best ways to respond, first off, we need to

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Speaker 1: teach our kids that they're not thinking straight in a

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Speaker 1: high emotion state. We need to teach them that high

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Speaker 1: emotions equals low intelligence, and that if they're having any

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Speaker 1: kind of interaction, highly emotive interaction with a sibling, it's

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Speaker 1: going to go badly. So something that we've always emphasized

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Speaker 1: with our kids is that you want to have a

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Speaker 1: soft startup. You don't want to launch in with it

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Speaker 1: no or you're an idiot or anything like that. You

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Speaker 1: want to start really softly. But secondly, if emotion is

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Speaker 1: a high, get out of there. Just deal with it

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Speaker 1: later when everyone's calmed down. Not that that works very

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Speaker 1: often because they get they get into victim mode. They

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Speaker 1: get into this mode where they feel like they're just

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Speaker 1: in doing and saying horrible things to each other because

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Speaker 1: of what the other one did to them.

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Speaker 2: I had a similar conversation with one of our girls

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Speaker 2: the other day. In relation to this, we have two

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Speaker 2: children in particular close in age, and they really are struggling, Yes,

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Speaker 2: a lot of conflict.

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Speaker 1: And they're in that same age group that Anna has

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Speaker 1: mentioned in her email.

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Speaker 2: But what I've noticed time and time again is that

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Speaker 2: every interaction somebody, well they actually both do. They both

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Speaker 2: choose to be the victim, and in choosing to be

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Speaker 2: the victim, they actually stay in the situation because then

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Speaker 2: the behavior that is hurtful to them continues. It then

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Speaker 2: justifies them and being angry and reacting in the way

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Speaker 2: that they want.

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Speaker 1: To and becoming the aggressor, and the.

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Speaker 2: Cycle keeps perpetuating and things keep getting bigger and bigger

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Speaker 2: and bigger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I call this the vicious circle. Right, somebody

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Speaker 1: does something to you feel lousy, so you feel now

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Speaker 1: justified into something to them because of what they did

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Speaker 1: to you. Because now you've done that to them, they

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Speaker 1: feel justified in doing something to you because they're not

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Speaker 1: seeing themselves as being the catalyst. In fact, maybe you

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Speaker 1: did something to them and you don't know about it,

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Speaker 1: and that's why they were doing what they were doing

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Speaker 1: to you. Anyway, So we get into this vicious circle.

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Speaker 2: And the self justification takes over and no one is

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Speaker 2: seen clearly. It's amazing how much we choose to live

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Speaker 2: in a state of misery when one simple act would

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Speaker 2: actually remove us from that environment.

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Speaker 1: And that act is usually walk away, walk away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll deal with this later when we're not emotional. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing that strikes me as fascinating, and you

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Speaker 1: can talk to the kids about this ana, is what

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Speaker 1: are you fighting about? Like literally most of us that

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Speaker 1: where adults or kids are fighting about pretty much nothing.

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Speaker 1: It's this perceived slide, it's this tiny little thing. Now granted,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it is actually a big thing, but more often

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Speaker 1: than not, it's essentially nothing that we're fighting about. But

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Speaker 1: we get so caught up in our self justification and

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Speaker 1: in our victimhood.

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Speaker 2: And our self righteousness and our.

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Speaker 1: Self righteousness that we decide that we need to make

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Speaker 1: the other person pay for what they've done, and we

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Speaker 1: take our victim mentality and turn it into I'm going

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Speaker 1: to lash out. I'm feeling weak, I'm feeling vengeful, I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling like I'm justified in doing whatever I want. So

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Speaker 1: what do we do instead as a parent trying to

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Speaker 1: deal with this in the moment just never works. So

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Speaker 1: keeping our call is critical. That means that we take

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Speaker 1: a big, deep breath, we ask ourselves what would I

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Speaker 1: do if somebody else was watching right now? So my

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Speaker 1: favorite strategies are what we call psychological distancing or self distancing,

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Speaker 1: and this is where we create some space between us

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Speaker 1: and the situation. Sometimes we have to be in this situation,

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Speaker 1: so we create the space by a imagining that somebody

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Speaker 1: is watching us literally, Like I can't tell you how

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Speaker 1: many parents have said, I just imagine that doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coulson is watching me in the living room while I'm

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Speaker 1: having this interaction with the kids. And if that helps you,

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Speaker 1: you're going to be a better parent.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Imagine that you're in a public place, imagine that where

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Speaker 1: you don't want to be seen to be at your worst,

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Speaker 1: you need to be seen to be at your best.

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Speaker 1: The second psychological distancing strategy that I recommend is when

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Speaker 1: you channel your inner mental mentor think about somebody that

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Speaker 1: you know that does this stuff really well, and just

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Speaker 1: try to be them for the next thirty seconds while

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Speaker 1: you're interacting with your child. Don't be you, be them.

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Speaker 1: And the third idea is just try to create space

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Speaker 1: temporarily by thinking if we were talking about this in

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Speaker 1: an hour, how would it be different to how we're

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Speaker 1: talking about it right now, And then you might just

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Speaker 1: step in and say, right, guys, we're not going to

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Speaker 1: even talk about this right now because everyone's really emotional,

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Speaker 1: and high emotions equals on intelligence. We're going to say

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Speaker 1: something dumb that we regret. So let's just go to

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Speaker 1: different rooms. Let's just get out of each other's face.

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Speaker 2: So you got to go to your corner.

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Speaker 1: I guess so, and in an hour or a day

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Speaker 1: or in a week, we're going to sit down and

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Speaker 1: we're going to work out what's going on, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to problem solve solutions. When it comes to that

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Speaker 1: problem solving process, what you really wanted to do is say,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel? How does your sistory or brother feel?

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Speaker 1: How do I feel? Has the family feel? What's the

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Speaker 1: culture that we're creating, what's the culture that we want?

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Speaker 1: There's obviously a gap? What do we do about it?

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Speaker 1: And it's that kind of problem solving that we bring

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Speaker 1: the kids in on when they're not emotional.

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Speaker 2: What actually really blew me away When I was having

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Speaker 2: this conversation with one of our girls the other day,

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Speaker 2: was just how readily she could see outside of the moment,

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Speaker 2: how she was contributing to the problem, but in the moment,

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Speaker 2: we think it's the other person's fault. Perfect, And I

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Speaker 2: just I was actually really proud of her that she

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Speaker 2: could step back and recognize that she actually plays a

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Speaker 2: significant part in it and there are things that she

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Speaker 2: could do differently. And so are we going to stop

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Speaker 2: the conflict in our home?

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Speaker 1: Never?

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's possible, but continuing to have these

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Speaker 2: kinds of conversations with our children outside of the moment,

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Speaker 2: where they're able to recognize the part they play in it,

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Speaker 2: but also feel that we're on their side, that we're

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Speaker 2: not an enemy, that we're not blaming them, that we

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Speaker 2: recognize that this is really hard, and that we can

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Speaker 2: sympathize and empathize with them, but help them to with

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Speaker 2: some psychological distance, work out ways that they can navigate

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Speaker 2: this better next time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, recognizing that there's no one size fit soul solution,

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Speaker 1: and no matter what you come up with, they're going

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Speaker 1: to get emotional, they're going to forget everything they've talked about.

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Speaker 1: And when we're under pressure and when we're angry, we

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Speaker 1: revert to our most practiced habit, which sometimes is yelling

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Speaker 1: and fighting and screaming and saying unkind things, which means

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Speaker 1: that we need to rehearse it again and again and again,

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Speaker 1: like this is a process. And we hope that's a

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Speaker 1: helpful response to your question and anyone else who's dealing

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Speaker 1: with some sibling conflict and rivalry and challenges. The Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and for more information

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Speaker 1: about making your family happier, you can visit us at

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Speaker 1: Happy families dot com, dot a u oh and Happy

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Speaker 1: Valentine's Day m HM.