Speaker 1: Hello there, It's Amantha here, the host of How I Work.
Speaker 1: But today's show is not an episode of How I Work.
Speaker 1: I'm actually interrupting How I Work normal proceedings to give
Speaker 1: you a preview of a new show that I have
Speaker 1: just launched with my closest girlfriend, Monique.
Speaker 2: The show is.
Speaker 1: Called How to Date, and it's a show that we
Speaker 1: decided to launch because Monique and I are both about
Speaker 1: one year out of our respective marriages. We are dating,
Speaker 1: immersed in the world of dating, not doing too well
Speaker 1: at it, and so we thought, well, what better way
Speaker 1: to get better at dating than to ask experts how
Speaker 1: to get better at dating. So on How to Date,
Speaker 1: we will be talking to all sorts of people from psychologists,
Speaker 1: dating coaches, professors, data crunches at bumble, even sex basically
Speaker 1: learning about how to improve our chances and your chances
Speaker 1: of finding love online, how to date during a pandemic,
Speaker 1: and digging into the later science on how to attract
Speaker 1: a great mate. So, if you're keen to improve your
Speaker 1: odds on the dating front, or maybe you know someone
Speaker 1: that is, and get some practical advice about how to
Speaker 1: get better at it, subscribe to How to Date wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your podcasts and if you're keen to
Speaker 1: hear more. I'm now going to launch into our very
Speaker 1: first episode of How to Date, so I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Please send me your feedback if you like it.
Speaker 1: Please search for How to Date in Apple Podcasts or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to this podcast and hit subscribe and
Speaker 1: you will be notified whenever new episodes come out. And
Speaker 1: while you're doing that, feel free to leave a review.
Speaker 1: That would be so greatly appreciated. So introduce the How
Speaker 1: to Date. Welcome to How to Date, a show about
Speaker 1: how to master the messy, complex, and downright bizarre world
Speaker 1: of dating when you really didn't think you'd be back
Speaker 1: here again. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm a psychologist,
Speaker 1: I'm one year out of my marriage, I'm a mom,
Speaker 1: and I'm immersed in the world of online dating.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm also your host Monique Robin. I'm a mom of
Speaker 3: four kids and a yoga teacher trying to find men
Speaker 3: who like me rather than my limber joints.
Speaker 1: Welcome to our first episode, everybody. Monique and I have
Speaker 1: known each other since we.
Speaker 3: Were five years old.
Speaker 1: We do everything together like best friends.
Speaker 3: Do.
Speaker 1: We even got divorced at about the same time. So
Speaker 1: how's it that now this podcast came about because Monique
Speaker 1: and I we're struggling. I would say, well, I mean
Speaker 1: we're single, So that kind of goes to show that
Speaker 1: we are struggling with online.
Speaker 3: Dating reader desperately feeling very pathetic.
Speaker 1: And it's like it's a whole other world. Like I
Speaker 1: didn't think I'd be dating again in my lifetime. I
Speaker 1: thought I'd done with that in my twenties.
Speaker 3: No, I'm so going to get married right first time round.
Speaker 1: We thought we could host a podcast where we can
Speaker 1: bring in experts to learn about what are all the
Speaker 1: questions that we have about how can we get better
Speaker 1: at dating because clearly we're struggling right now, and we've
Speaker 1: got an awesome guest on today's show. We found this
Speaker 1: amazing clinical psychologist, doctor Yelena Ketchamanovich. She's based in Washington, DC,
Speaker 1: and we learn all about how we can be more
Speaker 1: successful in the world of online dating.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she had some really really practical take homes.
Speaker 1: So before we get into the interview, I'm keen to
Speaker 1: hear about what's been going on in your dating life
Speaker 1: this week.
Speaker 3: Medique well, there was this guy that I met through
Speaker 3: the bumbleap and I was messaging him and on his profile,
Speaker 3: I thought, he seems like a really good guy. But
Speaker 3: I definitely ascertained right from the outset I was not
Speaker 3: physically attracted to him. He looked like a best friend
Speaker 3: kind of guy. He was not my type, but I
Speaker 3: knew that he was normal, good person, and by normal
Speaker 3: I mean just not a weirdo.
Speaker 1: So I thought, the bar's low.
Speaker 3: Well it is. You're right anyway, So I said to him,
Speaker 3: just because you know how, you asked these rudimentary questions.
Speaker 3: And one of the questions I asked him is so
Speaker 3: what are you up to right now? And he said, well,
Speaker 3: I'm just shopping locally. And I knew we'd already ascertained
Speaker 3: we lived near one another. And I said, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I'm on Balaclava Road getting a coffee and he said, oh,
Speaker 3: shut up, I am too. I'm not joking. We were
Speaker 3: both on Balaclava Road. What yeah, yeah, yeah, So anyway, line, well, no,
Speaker 3: because what happened was I said, Okay, let's meet at
Speaker 3: the bagel shop. He's like, okay. So it progressed far
Speaker 3: quicker than my decision had progressed whether I liked him
Speaker 3: or not, and I didn't do all the essential screening
Speaker 3: that you should do. So anyway, we went into this bagelshop.
Speaker 3: I'm not literally two minutes in he was there. Wow,
Speaker 3: And it was Lockdown number one. So we got a
Speaker 3: coffee and we started walking, and the whole time, I'm
Speaker 3: thinking to myself, oh my god, he's such a good conversationalist,
Speaker 3: but he's so not good looking. You know what I mean,
Speaker 3: you know that dilemma. He's normal, but I'm not sexually
Speaker 3: attracted to it. What am I going to do it?
Speaker 3: And we ended and he's like, oh, I really want
Speaker 3: to see you again, and this and that, and then
Speaker 3: Lockdown finished and I said to him, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to call him shower guy from here on in. Yes,
Speaker 3: I will be revealed.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: I knew that he was a good guy. And I
Speaker 3: know this sounds dodgy. It was that brief period after
Speaker 3: Lockdown but before the next one, and it was still
Speaker 3: a bit weird to go out. So I said to him,
Speaker 3: do you want to come to my place for a drink?
Speaker 3: Somebody's like yeah, he jumped on that. And then anyway,
Speaker 3: so I said, I can't even remember. I said, like
Speaker 3: eight thirty pm for a drink. I get a knock
Speaker 3: at my door. I'm dressed up like, looking like I'm
Speaker 3: about to go clubbing, because you're excited to have social
Speaker 3: interaction for a guy I'm not sexually attracted to. In
Speaker 3: my head, I'm thinking, am I going to kiss him?
Speaker 3: I don't even know if I can go there, but
Speaker 3: we're going to become besties. He rocks up in like
Speaker 3: active wear, sweating like a pig. I kid, you not
Speaker 3: sweating like a pig with a backpack on for our date.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, hi, shower guy. And he's like, yeah, Hi, look,
Speaker 3: don't mind me. I just needed to get my exercise
Speaker 3: in and didn't see having i'd have time to do it.
Speaker 3: Would you mind if I use your shower?
Speaker 2: What? What?
Speaker 3: And I said, Oh, I don't know. If I was
Speaker 3: already borderline uncomfortable about inviting you to my place. You know,
Speaker 3: we discussed this, and you either have two choices, to
Speaker 3: use my kids bath or to use my on sweet one,
Speaker 3: which would mean walking through my bedroom. He's like, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't mind whichever one you would prefer, hang on?
Speaker 1: Was there a third option? Go home, have a shower
Speaker 1: at your home, come back.
Speaker 3: Well, he'd have to run whatever ten k's to do that.
Speaker 3: And that's also another thing, Amantha. Did that mean he
Speaker 3: expected to get drunk and sleep at my place? Like
Speaker 3: just saying so anyway? Seriously? So anyway, I said to him, ah,
Speaker 3: and I thought about it, and all that sort of
Speaker 3: thought like get out of my house went through my mind.
Speaker 3: And anyway, I said, you know what, okay, I said
Speaker 3: it really nastily and that really sort of you know,
Speaker 3: passive aggressive voice. Fine, you can use my shower. I guess.
Speaker 3: He went into my shower, and I'm sort of listening
Speaker 3: because I'm paranoid. I've got a stranger in my bathroom,
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm hearing clanging of the doors of
Speaker 3: the cupboards, and I'm thinking, what the F. And then
Speaker 3: I'm like, you all right up there? He says, I
Speaker 3: can't find a towel.
Speaker 1: What he didn't a towel?
Speaker 3: I said, what was in your backpack?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 3: You brought a backpack to my place? He's like, oh,
Speaker 3: my clothes. And then I had to direct him to
Speaker 3: my kid's bathroom, which happens to double as the linen clauses.
Speaker 3: So he ended up having to go into my children's bathroom.
Speaker 3: He gets a towel, he uses the towel, and so
Speaker 3: with that, I'm hoping that's what the banging was for,
Speaker 3: to try and find the towel. And he came down
Speaker 3: smelling like a powder path with his new like dating
Speaker 3: clothes on, and to be honest, it just land and
Speaker 3: I went, nah, I can't do this. I wasn't sexually
Speaker 3: attracted you him in the first place, and I just
Speaker 3: thought I want him here because he's a good person.
Speaker 3: I want to see if I can like a good person.
Speaker 3: And he just wasn't a good person, Like that's not so.
Speaker 3: And so I said to him, I'm so sorry, shower guy,
Speaker 3: but I can't do this. This has put a really
Speaker 3: bad taste in my mouth. I'm gonna have to ask
Speaker 3: you to leave.
Speaker 1: So he's come downstairs, freshly showered, ready for the date.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're saying go, I said go, I said go.
Speaker 1: How did he react?
Speaker 3: And he goes, oh, like, I'm really sorry. Do you
Speaker 3: think he goes? Was I inappropriate asking for a shower?
Speaker 3: I said, I need to get some feedback on this,
Speaker 3: but I do think it's inappropriate. Yeah, I do, but
Speaker 3: I've lost my social parameters and barometers, so maybe you're appropriate.
Speaker 3: And I said, I really don't know, but I need
Speaker 3: time to think about it, you know what I mean. Anyway,
Speaker 3: He's like, oh, all right, so do you want me
Speaker 3: to go? And maybe we can arrange another time. I said, yes,
Speaker 3: I want you to go. Anyway, I decided to call
Speaker 3: him shower guy, but he's actually now becomestalker, so we
Speaker 3: can alternate. Yeah, he's been ringing me, texting me, just
Speaker 3: won't get the hints, so it's interesting. I had him
Speaker 3: at my house because he was a nice guy and
Speaker 3: I thought I was a good judge of character. And
Speaker 3: look what happened. Look what happened either way, freak experience.
Speaker 3: Absolutely lot about you. Have You had a good week
Speaker 3: on the dating scene?
Speaker 1: A week? Oh, you wouldn't call it good. It started
Speaker 1: off well though. So I'm matched with a guy on
Speaker 1: bumble and I think I sent you his photo because
Speaker 1: he looked like Hugh Jackman, and I was very excited.
Speaker 1: But I think when you say someone looks like a celebrity,
Speaker 1: it's always slightly offensive because they're never going to be
Speaker 1: as good as the actual celebrity. So he was let's
Speaker 1: call him very important businessman. He thought he was.
Speaker 3: An answer for you to call him very important businessman.
Speaker 3: This is a story.
Speaker 1: So we're messaging, and I know for both of us,
Speaker 1: we've discussed this in terms of our dating funnel. One
Speaker 1: of the aims is to get people off the bumble
Speaker 1: app or whatever Apple dating pipeline, dating pipeline and onto WhatsApp,
Speaker 1: because it's far.
Speaker 3: It's an important transition to make.
Speaker 1: It is. It's a big step, and a lot of
Speaker 1: men fall down at that step. But anyway, I'd managed
Speaker 1: to make that transition. You converted him, converted him, Yes,
Speaker 1: So we exchanged a few.
Speaker 3: Even as a very important businessman.
Speaker 1: Even as a very important businessman, I was happy to
Speaker 1: make that transition. And then we're exchanging quite long text messages,
Speaker 1: and he had this weird quirk where he would finish
Speaker 1: his text messages with a rose emoji. Okay, like I
Speaker 1: was a actually contended and was giving me the roes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, every extra you're so bloody luggy lucky it again.
Speaker 3: You made it to the next round of textings exactly.
Speaker 3: So I'm a very important businessman.
Speaker 1: That's right. You should be happy. So he was you
Speaker 1: know he was. He was very keen, which was slightly
Speaker 1: off putting, and I wasn't sure if that was my
Speaker 1: own self esteem telling me why is he so interested,
Speaker 1: or whether it was something I was picking up, And
Speaker 1: now that I look back on the experience, now that
Speaker 1: it has ended, it was definitely something I was picking up.
Speaker 1: So we arranged to have a zoom chat, which, weirdly enough,
Speaker 1: was in the middle of the day. Normally I do
Speaker 1: my zoom chatting at night, but he had calls with
Speaker 1: Europe because he's a very important businessman, so we have
Speaker 1: we arranged for a zoom chat in the middle of
Speaker 1: the day and I didn't have much time, so I
Speaker 1: had a brief kind of window and then I had
Speaker 1: a few minutes before the chat, so I had time
Speaker 1: to do my Google security chat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I searched for him, and I search for
Speaker 1: his company name, and I land on this website where
Speaker 1: people can complain about really dodgy business practices, and there
Speaker 1: are literally like over a hundred entries. I kid, you
Speaker 1: did for him, people complaining about him and his business practice.
Speaker 3: It's making claims against him or yes, yeah, and he.
Speaker 1: Had a lawsuit against that.
Speaker 3: It's actually not funny.
Speaker 1: It's not funny at all.
Speaker 3: It's not funny at all, but trust you to find that.
Speaker 1: So he had a lawsuit, and he did explain that
Speaker 1: in one of the earlier texts. He said he was framed.
Speaker 3: Of course, so it wasn't his fault. It wasn't his
Speaker 3: fault because people wanted to destroy such an important man.
Speaker 1: Exactly how could the poor thing? He was a whistleblower
Speaker 1: for his industry.
Speaker 3: Oh right, that's what he said.
Speaker 1: And so I find I find this website, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. And I've just committed to a zoom
Speaker 1: chat with him anyway, so I just thought, well, look it,
Speaker 1: tell it. I totally did it, and just to see
Speaker 1: what sort of a person is this, Like is he
Speaker 1: a classic narcissist? Because I think it's always good to
Speaker 1: have experience with narcissists so that you can identify them
Speaker 1: more easily. Yeah, So we have a fifteen minute zoom chat.
Speaker 1: I keep the conversation one hundred percent on him. He
Speaker 1: like vaguely tries to shift it off himself.
Speaker 3: Can I just say one thing just to psychoanalyze this? Yes,
Speaker 3: I reckon, because clearly from what you're about to tell
Speaker 3: me he's not a very important businessman. He probably did
Speaker 3: his Google research on you and he probably thought, oh,
Speaker 3: this will validate my story dating this lab. You know,
Speaker 3: you are all just part of his very important businessman
Speaker 3: persona dating a very important business woman.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, anyway, continue anyway. So he's just he's reeling
Speaker 1: off the most ridiculous things, like I said, you know,
Speaker 1: how's COVID been for your business given that you can't
Speaker 1: do face to face meetings and consults anymore? And he said,
Speaker 1: you know what, it's actually been great. We're saving about
Speaker 1: three hundred million in leases. I'm doing the maths in
Speaker 1: my inventium has a lease in Melbourne where we pay
Speaker 1: it's about one hundred and forty thousand a year. And
Speaker 1: that's for a whole fun ability in a city that's
Speaker 1: in it, that's in the city, like in the best
Speaker 1: part of Melbourne CBD. And I'm thinking, how many lisas
Speaker 1: does he have to add up to three hundred million?
Speaker 1: Is that like three hundred million for the next fifty years?
Speaker 1: What like we're talking major alarm bells and oh gosh.
Speaker 1: And then he said, so I looked up your business.
Speaker 1: I can see that you know you do all this
Speaker 1: work about culture, and I said, yeah, yeah, we do
Speaker 1: a bit of that and anyway, so.
Speaker 3: You get really dismissive when you're in that mood you
Speaker 3: would have done yeah, yeah, like I.
Speaker 1: Don't want to talk about me. I want to talk
Speaker 1: about it if you want to understand this very important
Speaker 1: businessman who's very, very dodgy. Anyway, so we get off
Speaker 1: the phone. I'm like, sorry, I got to prepare for
Speaker 1: my next meeting. I got to go lovely chatting, and
Speaker 1: at least he was good enough to go, well, if
Speaker 1: you want to continue the chat, let me know. So
Speaker 1: he kind of left the ball in my court, which
Speaker 1: I appreciated. And then I try to have a policy
Speaker 1: of not ghosting, but sometimes life gets busy, I accidentally
Speaker 1: ghost people. But he texted a couple of days later
Speaker 1: and he said, look, I'm assuming that you're not keen
Speaker 1: given the lack of messages, but you know, we've got
Speaker 1: really aggressive growth plans and I'll definitely be calling on
Speaker 1: you to help with the culture of the workplace towards
Speaker 1: the end of the year. And I think, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that'll be a client that will help.
Speaker 3: Not did you respond?
Speaker 1: I think I just responded with something innocuous like thanks
Speaker 1: and best of luck. So that was my week in dating. Okay,
Speaker 1: it is time to introduce today's guest, doctor Yelena Ketchmanovich,
Speaker 1: otherwise known as doctor k. She is a clinical psychologist
Speaker 1: and also an adjunct professor at Georgetown University in the
Speaker 1: Psychology Department, and she's based over in Washington, DC. Doctor
Speaker 1: Kay has over twenty five years experience as a psychologist
Speaker 1: and she's got a lot of single client clients who
Speaker 1: are trying to navigate the world of dating, and for
Speaker 1: a lot of them, specifically online dating. Yelena also writes
Speaker 1: for the Washington Post, Psychology Today, and the Chicago Tribune.
Speaker 1: So let's head to our chat with Yelener. I want
Speaker 1: to get stuck straight into it, and I know you've
Speaker 1: written a lot about online dating, and what I want
Speaker 1: to start with is what do people who are successful
Speaker 1: at online dating, that are finding love at least for
Speaker 1: some period of time do differently to everybody else out there.
Speaker 4: There are few things that's successful, it's called them successful
Speaker 4: online daters are doing differently, and first of all, what
Speaker 4: they're doing is that they are taking it seriously for
Speaker 4: various reasons. A lot of people tend to approach it
Speaker 4: kind of almost with ambiguity, with ambivalence.
Speaker 2: They are ambivalent about it.
Speaker 4: You know, they might want to find a partner, but
Speaker 4: maybe it's not the right time for them their life.
Speaker 4: Maybe there's still a little bit of embarrassment or stigma
Speaker 4: about finding partner through online means.
Speaker 2: There are a.
Speaker 4: Lot of these, as we know, online and platforms and apps.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's so many of them that it's almost
Speaker 4: hard to be serious about any single one because you know,
Speaker 4: you start this one and that's maybe not going that well,
Speaker 4: and then you try another one and next thing, you know,
Speaker 4: you want five different apps. I mean, I have a
Speaker 4: lot of clients in the area where we practice, a
Speaker 4: lot of young professionals in their twenties and thirties, and
Speaker 4: they might be on five six of these apps, and
Speaker 4: it's very hard to approach then any single one of them.
Speaker 2: Seriously, right.
Speaker 4: And people you know will also kind of have hazardly
Speaker 4: write their profile and maybe just put a couple of pictures,
Speaker 4: you know, just pick them up, not really vet them
Speaker 4: with their friends, not take time to maybe even you know,
Speaker 4: choose the best photo of a recent photo hopefully or
Speaker 4: even professionally take and photo and you know, not take
Speaker 4: time to be thoughtful and deliberate and sucsynct in their profile,
Speaker 4: especially with.
Speaker 2: Apps where you're allowed to write very little.
Speaker 4: As we know, uh, it's even more important right to
Speaker 4: be to be you know, clever and maybe a little
Speaker 4: funny and and and to be just really also thoughtful
Speaker 4: and deliberate and honest about who you are and what
Speaker 4: your interests and qualities are, and also very much about
Speaker 4: what you're looking for. So I think there's successful daters
Speaker 4: are first of all clear themselves that they're not ambivalent,
Speaker 4: they're clear what they want, that what they're looking for,
Speaker 4: and then they take that step very seriously.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's you know, uh, this may be a.
Speaker 4: Myth that oh well, the only you know, dating shouldn't
Speaker 4: be that much work, right if life is going to
Speaker 4: find me, it's going to find me, and all these
Speaker 4: myths that we have about dating in general.
Speaker 2: But you know, in truth, you know, it is like
Speaker 2: like big a job.
Speaker 4: You know, you have to put time and effort and
Speaker 4: deliberation in it if you're going to have more success.
Speaker 1: Should we just be picking one app and just committing
Speaker 1: to that app as opposed to like some of your
Speaker 1: clients who are on five or different.
Speaker 2: Apps, I recommend. I mean, this is just my rule
Speaker 2: of time, no more.
Speaker 4: Than two at the time, because anything more than that
Speaker 4: ends up becoming this overwhelming choice. Right, even without one app,
Speaker 4: depending how you use it, you can get into this
Speaker 4: paradox of choice. Like paradox of choice is a psychological
Speaker 4: phenomena very well described and researched originally by doctor Schwartz
Speaker 4: at Samore College here in America. And the idea is
Speaker 4: that you know, from no choice, when you go from
Speaker 4: no choice to having some choice, generally, satisfaction tends to
Speaker 4: go up, you know, not surprising, right what we know
Speaker 4: that for example America being an example of the other extreme,
Speaker 4: where you go to a grocery store and are you
Speaker 4: one hundred and ten choices of detergents? Well, you know
Speaker 4: that's the paradoxtial choice. After you know, satisfaction goes up
Speaker 4: a little bit. Increasing choice more actually leads to all
Speaker 4: kinds of negative concect clances.
Speaker 3: I can relate to that because I feel that I
Speaker 3: have seven or eight interests going on at once, and
Speaker 3: I find myself in quite an engaging conversation with each
Speaker 3: of them. But I also have four children, and I'm
Speaker 3: very busy, and I might not realize that I've let
Speaker 3: a conversation fizzle out until I maybe get a random
Speaker 3: piece of communication from that guy six weeks later, are
Speaker 3: you ghosting me? And I'm like, oh my goodness, I
Speaker 3: really I actually really liked him, but it just got
Speaker 3: too overwhelming, the choice.
Speaker 4: Too much, and it is really too much. You know,
Speaker 4: in a Russian terms, we are not designed to be
Speaker 4: able to actually make sort of you know, rationally best
Speaker 4: choice among you know, one hundred detergents, let's say, or
Speaker 4: you know, one hundred and fifteen profiles day right. And
Speaker 4: there's there's a very recent study from Touch researchers. Doctor
Speaker 4: punk is a lead author, that actually simulated swiping in
Speaker 4: their lab and they absolutely found, you know, this paradox
Speaker 4: of choice with dating. They were saying, the more people
Speaker 4: were swiping, the more they became dissatisfied that you know,
Speaker 4: most of the people they don't like that much, and
Speaker 4: then you know, this kind of general frustration. The satisfaction
Speaker 4: was leading them to be more likely to reject, you know,
Speaker 4: further prospect and to be less hopeful about finding somebody.
Speaker 2: So they were just ending up in this very frustrated, unhappy.
Speaker 4: Hopeless place, and so more choice was leading to actually
Speaker 4: less success.
Speaker 1: Right, So how much time should we actually be spending
Speaker 1: per day or per week swiping? So we're kind of
Speaker 1: not getting into that paradox of choice, and how many
Speaker 1: people should we be conversing with at any one time.
Speaker 4: It's very hard to put exact numbers. However, again we
Speaker 4: can talk about ballparks again. You know, the trouble of
Speaker 4: a choice is not only that, you know, we don't
Speaker 4: end up being able to devote attention to the people
Speaker 4: that we might be interested in, but we also end
Speaker 4: up having harder time, you.
Speaker 2: Know, picking We end up being more picky, we.
Speaker 4: End up having hard time picking few people, and then
Speaker 4: we end up having harder time committing to them even
Speaker 4: short term, because we always think, oh, there must be
Speaker 4: something better, right, because there's oh, all these matches are coming.
Speaker 4: So for all those reasons, you know, it really it
Speaker 4: like sabotages even the incipient you know, new relationships with
Speaker 4: that you may be forming as you as you are
Speaker 4: talking to somebody you know, conversing via text and then
Speaker 4: maybe meeting them these days on zoom. As you're doing that,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's really important to limit other options.
Speaker 4: So what we generally say, you know, one or two
Speaker 4: apps at a time, probably not checking more than twice
Speaker 4: a day, you know, not more twice then, and any
Speaker 4: given sitting quote unquote maybe about fifteen minutes or so,
Speaker 4: not this constant like, oh, has he replied to me, oh,
Speaker 4: next fifteen minutes or next half an hour, next minute?
Speaker 4: You know, Then it kind of ends up sipping into
Speaker 4: your whole day and you just lose track of who
Speaker 4: are you talking with?
Speaker 2: What have you told this guy versus the other guy?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: Have keV you know replied to that one. Oh my god, right,
Speaker 4: so short.
Speaker 2: All the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, those lessons people of course never make. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: that's right. I think we're both killty if I'm being
Speaker 3: a little bit more selective so that I don't burn
Speaker 3: out with my overload of choices. And I say, how
Speaker 3: much to say physical attractiveness playing this? I've got two questions.
Speaker 3: One is that okay, as a field like, am I'm
Speaker 3: missing out on some perfectly good guys by say, hypothetically
Speaker 3: setting my hype parameters certain that you know that would
Speaker 3: be if you were highest I'm am I doing myself
Speaker 3: an injustice or am I not giving myself you know,
Speaker 3: choice overload?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it's a great question.
Speaker 4: Again, we do some have some really interesting research in
Speaker 4: this area and it says this that not surprisingly, the
Speaker 4: first part is not surprising, the second maybe it's a
Speaker 4: little surprising. The first part is that most attractive people
Speaker 4: and richest people get contacted by far.
Speaker 2: The most online.
Speaker 4: Not surprising, right, so we know that now, you know,
Speaker 4: does that mimic quote unquote real life. And this is
Speaker 4: where kind of the interesting finding starts, and that is that,
Speaker 4: you know, yes to some extent, but not completely because
Speaker 4: you know, imagine at the bar, right, there's a really
Speaker 4: hot woman, as you say, good looking woman, drinking by herself,
Speaker 4: and then one guy who thinks he has a chance
Speaker 4: comes and starts chatting her up, and maybe she actually
Speaker 4: indulges him, right, And then maybe another guy's kind of
Speaker 4: you like, you know, just kind of setting positioning himself nearby,
Speaker 4: and so forth.
Speaker 2: A third guy, you know, especially.
Speaker 4: If he's perceiving himself not maybe not as good looking,
Speaker 4: is not gonna go and and try to break into this,
Speaker 4: you know, into the situation because he has feedback from
Speaker 4: the context you see he has feedback from the situation.
Speaker 4: You know, in normal life contact well, whether it's a
Speaker 4: bar or whether it's a work settings and school settings
Speaker 4: where we you know, normally in the past with meet people,
Speaker 4: you know, there are there a lot of these contextual cues, right,
Speaker 4: and so you kind of calibrate in a way, you know,
Speaker 4: are you going to have a chance with somebody you know,
Speaker 4: the kind of at your level of attractiveness or maybe
Speaker 4: a little higher, you know, a little lower, but but
Speaker 4: somewhere around whereas you know, when were sending messages, we're
Speaker 4: sending message into ether, right, there's no immediate feedback. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know you might not get a message back, but
Speaker 4: but you know people send hundreds and thousands of messages
Speaker 4: that don't get messages back, so they keep trying, right,
Speaker 4: So what happens is that that overwhelmingly attractive people, especially women,
Speaker 4: get contacted by people, and.
Speaker 2: You know, they don't respond. They get overwhelmed and they don't.
Speaker 4: Respond to overwhelming majority of those pursuing them. So you
Speaker 4: have a backlog and nobody wins. It's a kind of
Speaker 4: interesting thing to think about. So I think it is worthwhile,
Speaker 4: you know, kind of trying to engage our you know,
Speaker 4: rational parts of our brain kind of preferntal cortex, and
Speaker 4: to say, you know, if I can glence anything from
Speaker 4: this profile in terms of what people have written about themselves,
Speaker 4: and you know, if I'm intrigued by that, maybe they
Speaker 4: seem witty or funny or something like that.
Speaker 2: And maybe, you know, I'm not that.
Speaker 4: Attracted to their photo right now, but maybe I start
Speaker 4: chatting with them and you know, I start to kind
Speaker 4: of get this sense that they have these other qualities
Speaker 4: that again, in real life we besides looks, we usually
Speaker 4: are very early on exposed to other qualities of people.
Speaker 4: You don't see an online profiles. You don't see kindness,
Speaker 4: you don't see, you know, the ability to emotion regulate,
Speaker 4: to be a good partner in a relationship.
Speaker 2: You're not going to see any of that, right.
Speaker 4: And that's something in real life that we see in
Speaker 4: addition to physical attractiveness. So we do take many more
Speaker 4: characteristics in consideration. So I think it behooves us, yes
Speaker 4: to you know, lower as you say, maybe a little
Speaker 4: bit lower our physical standards and see if something shows
Speaker 4: up there.
Speaker 1: And I want to know, because Manique and I have
Speaker 1: both in lockdown and so pretty much the only dating
Speaker 1: that is available to people that are not in an
Speaker 1: intimate personal relationship, I think is how the government are
Speaker 1: talking about it is video dating or foreign dating. And
Speaker 1: I want to know, like, you know, if you've got
Speaker 1: chemistry on Zoom or whatever video chat you're using, does
Speaker 1: that generally predict chemistry when you eventually meet face to face,
Speaker 1: assuming that you.
Speaker 4: Do, absolutely as much as just looking at profiles does not.
Speaker 2: Predict actual physical chemistry.
Speaker 4: You know, at every level, the chances of you actually
Speaker 4: hitting it off, you know, and feeling that click right,
Speaker 4: So the lowest start just looking at profiles. If you
Speaker 4: start texting, okay, there's little more chance, but still there's
Speaker 4: a huge gap between texting with somebody, especially casually, and
Speaker 4: you know, clicking with somebody you know physically in person. However,
Speaker 4: talking on the phone improves the chances of clicking in person.
Speaker 4: Zoom is as close as you can get to physical interactions.
Speaker 2: So yes, zoom is.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's not perfect, but it's done
Speaker 4: close to actually meeting somebody in person and seeing how
Speaker 4: that goes. So I absolutely recommend that to my clients.
Speaker 1: Something else I was interested in is the traditional gender
Speaker 1: roles and what that plays in online dating because something
Speaker 1: I find in my career life, I'm sort of very
Speaker 1: proactive and forward and you know, trying to be in
Speaker 1: control of things, and I find that sometimes that persona
Speaker 1: leaks into my dating life. And I'm not sure whether
Speaker 1: that's a good thing because don't guys want the chase?
Speaker 1: Or is that a good thing? Because I've also heard
Speaker 1: from men that they feel like women are perceiving them
Speaker 1: to be a bit kind of predatory if they're you know, crying, I'll.
Speaker 3: Just translate Amantha. Amantha is a natural born leader, and
Speaker 3: she's just used to coordinating large groups of people into
Speaker 3: her really busy life, and I think for her it's
Speaker 3: hard for her to differentiate that in her personal life.
Speaker 3: But is that okay to appear constantly assertive? Whereas I
Speaker 3: take the more traditional role of oh, I hope he
Speaker 3: suggests the zoom and I hope he does. He hasn't
Speaker 3: suggested one. And Amantha is like, you know, if I'm
Speaker 3: free at twelve oh five, I'm going to get into
Speaker 3: zoom with me.
Speaker 4: So, you know, excellent questions, and I have a couple
Speaker 4: of answers to that. My first gun reaction is is
Speaker 4: if you are a certain kind of person, then there's
Speaker 4: really no point hiding it, even early on, because eventually
Speaker 4: that guy, let's say, either likes a certain women or
Speaker 4: he doesn't, you know, and so you know, pretending I
Speaker 4: think even a little bit that oh, you know, you
Speaker 4: need to chase me, and I am somewhat kind of
Speaker 4: passive or whatever.
Speaker 2: It's just you know, my work for short term.
Speaker 4: But eventually it's not gonna work because you know, there's
Speaker 4: some guys who you know, don't go for that, and
Speaker 4: there are plenty of guys who do. So being yourself
Speaker 4: from the beginning is a much much better approach.
Speaker 2: That said, I think that a huge trouble.
Speaker 4: We get ourselves in when online dating is texting via
Speaker 4: app or maybe once you exchange phone numbers, texting for
Speaker 4: really long periods of time before meeting each other meeting,
Speaker 4: and this can be even either be a zoom or
Speaker 4: in person. Right, That's that's the I think the biggest
Speaker 4: problem that I see that people get into into these
Speaker 4: you know, they call that conversations.
Speaker 2: They're not really conversations.
Speaker 4: The texting conversations you know, with this guy and number
Speaker 4: guy number one, and two and three and four and five,
Speaker 4: and then I'll you know, I always ask my clients
Speaker 4: and so how many.
Speaker 2: Have you actually met?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, nobody in the last couple of months,
Speaker 4: So what is it this all for?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: So, if after you know, a couple of days of
Speaker 4: you know, conversing via text, via app, uh, the other
Speaker 4: person hasn't suggested that you meet again virtually on in
Speaker 4: person suggested suggested, because that's the only way you're going
Speaker 4: to know if there's any promise here, if there's any click.
Speaker 4: Otherwise it's waste of everybody's time and emotional energy, honestly, right,
Speaker 4: So it's.
Speaker 2: Really I think it doesn't matter you know who you are.
Speaker 4: If the other person hasn't suggested, if you again want
Speaker 4: to take this seriously and want to increase your chances,
Speaker 4: then just suggested, and you know, it's of course okay.
Speaker 4: If the other person says, I am really busy, maybe
Speaker 4: not this week and next week. But if they start
Speaker 4: saying that again and again, and they start wiggling, you know,
Speaker 4: not replying or wiggling out of.
Speaker 2: The answer or keep postponing, you have your answer.
Speaker 1: And I imagine, like, because I find when I'm messaging
Speaker 1: with someone, I feel myself starting to project these imaginary
Speaker 1: qualities onto them, which is obviously very unhelpful. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: that's why messaging back and forth is just not a
Speaker 1: helpful way to go.
Speaker 4: That's one of the big reasons, and there's actually some
Speaker 4: interesting research about that as well. We absolutely create this
Speaker 4: you know, imaginary it's called hello Hello effect.
Speaker 2: We create this image.
Speaker 4: A perfect image that I had, and we are more
Speaker 4: likely much more likely to get disappointed because nobody can
Speaker 4: live up to this fantastical image.
Speaker 3: And I know, I know.
Speaker 1: Manique had one final question.
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is something that I struggle with. Okay,
Speaker 3: I made a in a bar, and I feel I
Speaker 3: can present myself quite confidently, and we get talking, and
Speaker 3: then my hope is that they get to know me,
Speaker 3: they get to know my situation, and then they say,
Speaker 3: once you know, it's clearly more than just meeting in
Speaker 3: a bar, they then find out that I have four
Speaker 3: children paged between eight and twelve. Now, I would hope
Speaker 3: that any normal guy would go, WHOA, that's a lot
Speaker 3: of baggage, because it is, and in a way I
Speaker 3: would kind of be surprised if they were so instantaneously
Speaker 3: accepting of that. Yet at the same time, I would
Speaker 3: expect that they'd be open minded because everybody's situation is unique.
Speaker 3: And I think it was in the context of ghosting.
Speaker 3: Amantha and I were talking about when do you get ghosted?
Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, can't really pinpointed. The conversation just
Speaker 3: fizzles off. I said, I find I mostly get ghosted
Speaker 3: when they ask me how many children do you have?
Speaker 3: So what is too much to reveal?
Speaker 4: Again, wonderful question, and that comes in play in all
Speaker 4: kinds of situations because you know, what I want to emphasize.
Speaker 2: Is we all have baggage. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 2: might say, oh, that's a lot.
Speaker 4: A lot of baggage is for kids, but that's also
Speaker 4: something that makes you a really interesting person who obviously
Speaker 4: you know, has has juggled so much in her life.
Speaker 4: So you you know, immediately somebody might think, oh my god,
Speaker 4: she's amazing. She's able to have, you know, a career
Speaker 4: and for children, and you know, imagine what kind of
Speaker 4: qualities she must bring to the world, right, she must
Speaker 4: be full of energy and incredibly capable. And so everything
Speaker 4: can be interpreted in different ways depending on where you're
Speaker 4: coming from.
Speaker 2: That said again, because so many.
Speaker 4: Cues are missing from texting unless directly asked. I think
Speaker 4: that some of these somewhat bigger revelations are best left
Speaker 4: for meeting.
Speaker 2: Again, I would normally say, face to face meeting. Now
Speaker 2: we can say zoom. You know.
Speaker 4: I just think again that that any of these more revealing,
Speaker 4: more intimate visis of information. You know, I just better
Speaker 4: communicated and received when we can see each other as
Speaker 4: facial expressions.
Speaker 2: So that's I mean, kind of again, rule of time,
Speaker 2: the exceptions.
Speaker 3: But I would say, I ask you directly, I guess you.
Speaker 2: Have to then you have to. Yeah, I mean, well
Speaker 2: you don't. You don't have to.
Speaker 4: I mean, people do lie. But of course that's not
Speaker 4: ever a good idea because people will find out the
Speaker 4: truth eventually.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So, actually, with my children, you can hear them from
Speaker 3: the next neighborhood.
Speaker 2: That's nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1: You could you could just be like a politician, Manique,
Speaker 1: can just evade the question and answer the question you
Speaker 1: want to answer.
Speaker 2: That's true. That is true.
Speaker 1: We are so out of time that has flown by.
Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your time and insight. Manique and I are definitely going
Speaker 1: to be better off. So, Renique, I loved that chat.
Speaker 1: I want to know for you, what's the biggest takeout
Speaker 1: for you from that interview.
Speaker 3: I would have to say what resonated with me was
Speaker 3: her suggestion that we contain our search to maybe one
Speaker 3: or two apps. I think that really resonated with me
Speaker 3: for the simple reason I find that even if I
Speaker 3: find a potential suitor that really hasn't showed any signs
Speaker 3: of not being so, I kind of can tend to
Speaker 3: lose interest because I've got seven or eight going at once.
Speaker 1: How many apps are you on at the moment.
Speaker 3: Oh, several? You know. Sometimes I'll focus on one, sometimes
Speaker 3: I'll barely focus on four. But I think now I'm
Speaker 3: going to contain it to one or two and just
Speaker 3: really make a pact with myself to be a committed
Speaker 3: data to follow these communications through.
Speaker 1: I think for me, the thing that I found most
Speaker 1: encouraging was about zoom chemistry translating to real life. Because
Speaker 1: right now we're in Melbourne, we're in lockdown, we're not
Speaker 1: allowed to go on face to face eights and I've
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of zoom dating and I do
Speaker 1: always question, how does the chemistry translate, Will it translate?
Speaker 1: So I liked that she felt very confident that it would.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's really important for us to
Speaker 3: have that confidence because we are in lockdown. We probably
Speaker 3: are having multiple zoom dates with the one person, so
Speaker 3: we can really maybe perhaps build a false sense of
Speaker 3: who that person is if it isn't translatable, and get
Speaker 3: into deep so to speak, and then be really disappointed
Speaker 3: in real life. So it's reassuring to know that perhaps
Speaker 3: that won't be the case.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that we're going to do
Speaker 1: with How to Date is that Monique and I are
Speaker 1: going to have a regular segment called the hot Tip segment,
Speaker 1: where one of us will share something that has been
Speaker 1: a super valuable strategy or technique that we've been using
Speaker 1: in our own lives. So Monique, I've got something to
Speaker 1: share today.
Speaker 3: Okay, good? Yeah, because you know, I don't I think
Speaker 3: I've had any successful techniques this week, so I want
Speaker 3: to hear your.
Speaker 1: Tip, all right. So one of the things that I
Speaker 1: struggle with is that I've been doing a lot of
Speaker 1: zoom dating, and I can pretty quickly see if there's
Speaker 1: a spark there or feel if there's a spark there,
Speaker 1: but then it gets really awkward to end it. I
Speaker 1: find that they sort of like most of my zoom
Speaker 1: dates have been going for about an hour or.
Speaker 3: So, right, that's a long time.
Speaker 1: That's a long time, particularly if you know that there's
Speaker 1: no spark. So to be a bit more efficient with
Speaker 1: the zoom date my hot tip. And I haven't tried
Speaker 1: this yet. This is more something I'm going to try
Speaker 1: this week. And I don't know quite how I'll frame
Speaker 1: this at the beginning, but almost to make a game
Speaker 1: of it, to say to the guy, Okay, it's going
Speaker 1: to be really obvious as to whether there's spark or
Speaker 1: not in the first few minutes, So why don't I
Speaker 1: set the timer on my phone for ten minutes and
Speaker 1: then at ten minutes we can just have an honest
Speaker 1: chat about whether we want to continue beyond ten minutes.
Speaker 3: I love that, you know, I'll tell you why. I
Speaker 3: love it. It's sufficient, but I also like it because
Speaker 3: it's just something you would not do in your twenties.
Speaker 3: It's very assertive, and I think that's actually very sexy.
Speaker 3: So and it's fun. It's playful almost, So I'd love
Speaker 3: to see how you go, and i'd be interested to
Speaker 3: see what that does to the guy and how he
Speaker 3: feels being put on the clock, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I'll have to report back on that one,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate your feedback. Assertive and sexy, they're good words.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping it's not offensive.
Speaker 3: No, not at all. I think that people liked to
Speaker 3: not have their time wasted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, Okay, well I'm going to report back on
Speaker 1: that one.
Speaker 3: I can't wait.
Speaker 1: All right, So that is it for today's show. If
Speaker 1: you have enjoyed how to Date, why not share it
Speaker 1: with other people that you've think could benefit from some
Speaker 1: of the advice that we are offering. And if you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episod so we would love to get your feedback.
Speaker 1: Please leave us a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever
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Speaker 1: you next time.
Speaker 3: See you soon.