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Speaker 1: Have you ever been online and wanted to get involved

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Speaker 1: in a discussion. Maybe you comment and click post without

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Speaker 1: even thinking about it. For the next morning, you wake

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Speaker 1: up to a barrage of responses. Things have gotten totally.

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Speaker 2: Out of hand.

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Speaker 1: Should you jump in there and start defending yourself? Or

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Speaker 1: maybe you could have spent more time considering what you're

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Speaker 1: going to say before you posted.

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Speaker 2: Or is no response the best response?

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Speaker 1: The comedian, podcast and radio host and writer Michelle Laurie

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Speaker 1: this just.

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Speaker 2: Used to be part of her job.

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Speaker 1: One night, she would make a comment on TV and

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Speaker 1: then afterwards deal with the fallout on social media, sometimes

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Speaker 1: for weeks. Not long ago, Michelle decided to walk away

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Speaker 1: from this side of being in the media and totally

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Speaker 1: changed her online presence. Michelle is also a long term

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Speaker 1: devotee of Buddhism, which informs a lot of her work

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Speaker 1: and life practices. So what are some of the most

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Speaker 1: impactful practices from Buddhism that Michelle uses and how can

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Speaker 1: Buddhism give you a happier life? And how has Michelle

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Speaker 1: mastered the art of making new friends as an adult.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor Amantha Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the

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Speaker 1: founder of behavioral Science consultancy invent him and this is

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Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you

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Speaker 1: do your best work. Michelle now spends a lot of

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Speaker 1: her time elbow deep in true crime stories and running

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Speaker 1: her own production.

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Speaker 2: Company, Smart Fella.

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Speaker 3: So, after so.

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Speaker 1: Many years on air with all the big broadcasters, how

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Speaker 1: did Michelle approach starting Smart Fella?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: I asked other people how to do that. That's sort

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Speaker 4: of my modus operande. I always just ask other people

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Speaker 4: who seem to be doing it well, or I try,

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Speaker 4: and you know, at least watch other people who seem

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Speaker 4: to be doing something well when I'm trying something new.

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Speaker 3: And I have some friends, some young.

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Speaker 4: Women who were producers on the project who have since

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Speaker 4: left there and started their own production company.

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Speaker 3: Their company is.

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Speaker 4: Called Clothesline, and yeah, I went and asked them, how

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Speaker 4: do you do that? And they said, oh, well, this

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Speaker 4: is how we did it, and I sort of followed

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Speaker 4: their lead and it's working.

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Speaker 3: And I work with them now a lot as well.

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Speaker 4: We sort of work together on different things because they

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Speaker 4: mainly do visuals and I mainly do audio.

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Speaker 3: So we work it out.

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Speaker 1: And what made you decide to take the planet, Because

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Speaker 1: that can be a really scary thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 4: The thing with me is I'm sort of always waiting

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Speaker 4: for somebody else to do the hard stuff for me,

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Speaker 4: and it never happens. It's just the story of my life,

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Speaker 4: and I end up having to do it myself. And

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Speaker 4: I for years have thought, well, I'm obviously really good

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Speaker 4: at podcasting and making a podcast, because this podcast, Australian

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Speaker 4: True Crime in particular, is really successful and it's been

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Speaker 4: consistently one of the most downloaded podcasts in the country

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Speaker 4: since twenty seventeen. And I just make it myself, like

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Speaker 4: I don't have a radio network behind me or a

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Speaker 4: newspaper or anything like that. And if you look at

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Speaker 4: like the top ten podcasts, all the others are made

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Speaker 4: by huge corporations, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I kept.

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Speaker 4: Thinking over the years, somebody's got offer me a job. Surely,

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Speaker 4: like all these networks kept popping up, and I thought,

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Speaker 4: surely one of them's going to say you should come

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Speaker 4: and work for us, because you're obviously really good at this.

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Speaker 4: And the reason, honestly that I'm good at it is

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Speaker 4: because I've worked for networks. I've worked for the biggest

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Speaker 4: radio networks in the country for a long time, so

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Speaker 4: I've learned from the best people.

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Speaker 3: It's not that I'm an.

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Speaker 4: Incredible prodigy, like I've just like really experienced and I've

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Speaker 4: learned from great people. In the end, I just I

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Speaker 4: guess I just had that COVID moment that I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of a lot of us had where I

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Speaker 4: felt like, why not do something extreme when I do

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Speaker 4: something crazy? And I think it was that in the end,

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to break out last year and just

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Speaker 4: do something.

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Speaker 3: It seemed like the time.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Now I know that Buddhism plays a big role in

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Speaker 1: your life, and I want to know what practical ways

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Speaker 1: have you changed your life to focus on Buddhism.

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Speaker 4: Well, everything I do, hopefully the way I do everything

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Speaker 4: is influenced by Buddhism. And that's just about trying to

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Speaker 4: take a moment before I do everything and not react

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Speaker 4: out of emotion, and yeah, try to take a moment

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Speaker 4: to think about why I'm doing what I'm doing and

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Speaker 4: not react out of anger or greed or jealousy or

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Speaker 4: any of those sort of negative emotions, and try to

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Speaker 4: be acting always for a good reason, a sense of reason,

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Speaker 4: or I mean, obviously I don't achieve that all the time.

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Speaker 4: But that's the aim, yeah, is to be doing what

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Speaker 4: I'm doing for a good reason and not just because

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Speaker 4: of my ego or you know something like that.

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Speaker 3: So that's the aim.

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Speaker 4: Don't start a production company because I'm my ego is

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Speaker 4: bruised because I haven't been hired to run podcast one

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Speaker 4: or something.

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Speaker 1: So what are it like some of the rituals or

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Speaker 1: habits that you've taken on, Like as a result of

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Speaker 1: studying Buddhism.

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Speaker 4: I chant in moments when I need to to center myself,

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Speaker 4: calm myself, meditation, try to meditate every day.

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Speaker 2: And what does meditation look like for you?

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Speaker 1: Because I know, like there's so many different types and

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Speaker 1: ways of doing it.

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Speaker 3: Buddh's meditation is pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 4: It's about sitting still and allowing thoughts to move in

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Speaker 4: and out of your mind without judgment, is the way

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Speaker 4: we describe it. So allowing thoughts, I mean, ideally you

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Speaker 4: want to try and keep your mind free from thoughts,

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Speaker 4: but when they pop into your mind when I'm sitting

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Speaker 4: still and concentrating on my breathing or whatever, when a

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Speaker 4: thought pops into my mind, when I suddenly think.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's right, I'm supposed to be speaking to a mansa.

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Speaker 4: Ideally I will not have an opinion about that.

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Speaker 2: And how do you do that? That sounds so hard

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Speaker 2: your practice?

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Speaker 3: And that's you know, we have a cute saying.

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Speaker 4: That's why it's called a practice and not a perfect

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Speaker 4: you know, I have a meditation practice. So it's just practice.

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Speaker 4: It's just it's just starting a habit. It's a habit.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, you know, you you can develop a

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Speaker 4: habit to drink eight glasses of water a day, Well,

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Speaker 4: that takes time. You have to work at a habit

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Speaker 4: of meditating. It's hard, it takes practice, you get better

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Speaker 4: at it. And also, no one's perfect at it. I

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Speaker 4: think the problem with meditation is a lot of people

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Speaker 4: think everyone else is doing it really well, everyone.

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Speaker 3: Else is better at it. No, that's what meditation is

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Speaker 3: is failing at it constantly. That's what it is. You know,

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Speaker 3: monks fail at it.

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Speaker 4: If you listen to two monks talk about their training,

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Speaker 4: it's all about that.

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Speaker 3: It's all about getting in trouble for being bad at meditation,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: I find that so encouraging.

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Speaker 1: I've tried to develop a meditation have it numerous times,

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Speaker 1: like I feel I feel like I should given a

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Speaker 1: host of podcast about work and productivity.

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Speaker 2: But I've just failed miserably every time.

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Speaker 3: That's it. You weren't you weren't failing, you were meditating.

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Speaker 3: That's what it is.

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Speaker 1: I've had that One of the first Buddhist teachings you

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Speaker 1: put into practice was the idea of letting other people

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Speaker 1: go first. Can you tell me about that, like what

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Speaker 1: that means and how that in practice?

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Speaker 4: It's a great one. It's that simple. Just just let

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Speaker 4: other people go first. I mean everywhere in traffic, when

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Speaker 4: you're walking through doors, everywhere you go, when you're getting

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Speaker 4: on an escalator, when you're getting in a lift, just

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Speaker 4: the simple act of standing back and gesturing for other

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Speaker 4: people to go in front of you is a really

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Speaker 4: great exercising humility and it just makes people happy. It's

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Speaker 4: a great habit to get into putting other people first.

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Speaker 4: It's just a good practice, I think, and it kind

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Speaker 4: of sets you up, sets up your intention, and I

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Speaker 4: think it carries through in other parts of your life.

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Speaker 4: And it's a simple. I mean, as I say, every

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Speaker 4: habit's tricky to start to remember, but it's a good

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Speaker 4: one too that you can implement every day and you

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Speaker 4: can get practicing really really quickly easily.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: One of the hats that you wear is as a columnist,

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Speaker 1: and I got to say, I love the column that

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Speaker 1: you write for Sunday Life when you are in there,

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Speaker 1: which is every few weeks.

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Speaker 4: I am very well behind at the moment, but yees.

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Speaker 1: You, well, please catch up because I love reading what

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Speaker 1: you write.

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Speaker 2: I want to know where where do you get your

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Speaker 2: ideas from?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's uh.

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Speaker 4: Now that I'm not in breakfast radio, it should be easier,

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Speaker 4: but no, I'm behind. I just try to think about

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Speaker 4: life in its very simplest state, try not to get

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Speaker 4: too complicated about it. Try to think about the minutia,

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Speaker 4: you know. I think that's where it's sort of at

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Speaker 4: its most fun and at its most relatable. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's where it's at its most joyful is when

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Speaker 4: you can really read a column and go oh gosh,

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Speaker 4: yes and feel like, yeah, you get it, you know it,

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Speaker 4: and maybe you hadn't thought of it that way, or

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Speaker 4: maybe you hadn't thought of it that deeply, or you know.

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Speaker 3: They're my favorite things to read about.

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Speaker 4: And even that emotional Openness column was about I felt like, oh,

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Speaker 4: maybe you are that personal.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you know a person like that, or maybe you're going.

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Speaker 4: To read it and go, oh my god, what a

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Speaker 4: freaks she is, or you know, like just But also

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Speaker 4: that column was about making friends as an adult, and

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Speaker 4: I wanted to because a lot of adults say it's

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Speaker 4: it's impossible, and there's a lot of loneliness around, and

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Speaker 4: I wanted to just encourage people to not think that way,

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Speaker 4: to just be more open.

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Speaker 1: I must say, I do love the idea of making

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Speaker 1: new friends as adults, because it's something that so many

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Speaker 1: people struggle with. So what are you consciously or even

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Speaker 1: unconsciously doing when you're forming new friends as an adult

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Speaker 1: saying yes?

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Speaker 2: Tell me about that?

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Speaker 4: Just saying yes. I just say yes. I say yes

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Speaker 4: to invitations, I say yes to I just I'm out

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Speaker 4: and about and having kids and having my kids go

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Speaker 4: start their little lives, their little social lives was such

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Speaker 4: a great experience for me. And I must say that

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Speaker 4: when they were first born, I was I said to

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Speaker 4: another lady, oh God, I'm not looking forward to them

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Speaker 4: going to school and having to hang out with the other.

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Speaker 3: Moms and and she said to me, Nah, you don't

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Speaker 3: get it.

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Speaker 4: Those women will save your life so often, and I

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Speaker 4: didn't get it because from the minute they went to daycare,

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Speaker 4: like three year old kinder and I met this group

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Speaker 4: of mums and then my kids are now almost twelve,

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Speaker 4: and it's the same group of mums and they are

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Speaker 4: my life. They are my everything. It is so much

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Speaker 4: about just saying yes and just being open to it.

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Speaker 4: And you know, you meet people who parrot those Seinfeld

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Speaker 4: lines all the time, like I'm not looking for friends

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Speaker 4: and I have no vacancies and all that, and I'm

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Speaker 4: like god like that.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't be like that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's so many great people, and I meet

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Speaker 4: great people who are so much younger than me every day,

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Speaker 4: so much older than me.

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Speaker 3: Every day.

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Speaker 4: I have friends, you know, ranging from the early twenties

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Speaker 4: to their eighties.

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Speaker 3: Like, don't be like that. You're missing out on incredible

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Speaker 3: people and experience and knowledge, wisdom, you know.

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Speaker 1: Now, I want to talk about social media and what's

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Speaker 1: your relationship with social media?

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Speaker 4: Like these days, Oh, I don't participate much. I love

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Speaker 4: a bit of Insta and I just sort of crept

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Speaker 4: back onto Insta not long ago. But then I was

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Speaker 4: going to say I had a bit of drama this morning.

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Speaker 4: But I think I've smoothed it over. But it's like

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Speaker 4: the thing is, you know, we all look at the

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Speaker 4: same thing, but we see it differently, right, So you

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Speaker 4: know we can you know, I can make a joke

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Speaker 4: about a post and then sure enough some women.

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Speaker 3: Will go, oh, Michelle, I wish you wouldn't be man

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Speaker 3: because and it's like a year joking like how is that?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god? I mean that's that's where it's really dull.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 4: I don't like social media at all, and I think unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: I think the problem with it is that it's really

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Speaker 4: stifling for creatives, for actual creatives and performers. And what

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Speaker 4: I find is that young performers in particular, who've just

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Speaker 4: grown up with it, just just factor it in all

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Speaker 4: the time in their creative decisions, which is really sad

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Speaker 4: because they're always saying to me things like, oh, I'd

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Speaker 4: better not do that, because then they'll say this, and

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Speaker 4: they'll say that, and they'll accuse me of this, and

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Speaker 4: they'll accuse me of that. And when they say they

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Speaker 4: they mean people on social media, they mean people on Twitter,

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh god, can you just forget about

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Speaker 4: that for one minute and just write the show, Like,

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Speaker 4: just can we just get through the creative process?

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Speaker 3: Can we just write it?

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Speaker 4: Can we just you know, think about what it is

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Speaker 4: you trying to create without thinking about these voices coming

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Speaker 4: out of your phone that may or may not happen.

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Speaker 4: It's very stifling creatively.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I don't read it. I'm not on it.

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Speaker 4: I'm just back to creating what I create. I make podcasts,

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Speaker 4: I write books, and I don't ever go anywhere to

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Speaker 4: find out what anyone.

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Speaker 3: Thinks about it.

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Speaker 4: Basically, I'm creating like it's nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 3: So there.

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Speaker 1: We will be back with Michelle soon where she's going

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Speaker 1: to share some surprising parenting hacks and how she finds

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Speaker 1: the stories to cover in her top ranking true crime podcast.

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Speaker 2: But before we get.

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Speaker 1: To that, if you're not following me on some of

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Speaker 1: the social channels, why not start because I post a

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Speaker 1: lot of other content through them. So you can find

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Speaker 1: me on LinkedIn to search Amantha Inver and you can

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Speaker 1: find me there and let me know that you found

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Speaker 1: me through the podcast, or you can find me on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Amantha and also on Instagram at Amantha. I.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about true crime, and I don't know, like,

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Speaker 1: how do you find the stories that you want to

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Speaker 1: explore and report on.

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Speaker 3: They mostly come to us now.

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Speaker 4: They are through Facebook or through the website. It's mostly

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Speaker 4: people either listeners or they're all listeners, but either people saying,

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Speaker 4: I'm really interested in this case, could you I'd like

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Speaker 4: to know more about that. So we'll normally get like

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Speaker 4: a lot of listeners saying that they want to know

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Speaker 4: more about a certain case, or it's people saying, this

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Speaker 4: is my case and I would like to talk to

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Speaker 4: you about it.

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Speaker 3: This has happened in my family. Oh, this happened to me.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, that's how they mostly come now, which is

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Speaker 4: great for many reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what about in the early days where that wasn't happening.

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Speaker 3: Well, then it was.

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Speaker 4: It was really a matter of us just talking about

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Speaker 4: In those days, Emily and I spent a lot more

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Speaker 4: time together and we just talked about things that had

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Speaker 4: always fascinated us, and one thing would lead to another,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, we'd just kick around ideas, or we'd read

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Speaker 4: a book, or there'd be a new book out or

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Speaker 4: something like that. You know, we seem to have this

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Speaker 4: backlog in our minds of stories that we'd always been

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Speaker 4: really fascinated by. Yeah, but I mean that was twenty

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Speaker 4: seventeen when we started, and it's a weekly podcast, so yeah,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of I think we're up to like

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Speaker 4: two hundred episode two hundred and seventeen or something that

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Speaker 4: I just uploaded. So yeah, that was not time ago,

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Speaker 4: but so luckily people are coming to us now. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: you do get on a bit of a jag where suddenly,

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Speaker 4: like at the moment, we're on a bit of a

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Speaker 4: cybercrime jag.

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Speaker 3: We're sort of one thing.

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Speaker 4: Leads to another and it sparks ideas and different people

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Speaker 4: pop up from it from that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and how do you find information on the cases?

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Speaker 4: Well, usually, you know, the case comes first, the idea,

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Speaker 4: and then we go researching. We'll read coroner's findings, we'll

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Speaker 4: read sentencing remarks, we read a lot of court documents.

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Speaker 4: We actually go and get those those documents. We've got

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Speaker 4: a lot of good contacts now, so we we might

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Speaker 4: talk to the investigating officer and oftentimes they'll still have

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Speaker 4: some good documents, they might have their brief of evidence. Still,

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Speaker 4: you'd be amazed what they keep. The homicide detectives, they

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Speaker 4: keep a lot of their documents from back in the day.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 4: We tend to rather than just read media reports, we

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Speaker 4: tend to actually go and get the official documentation and

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Speaker 4: read that for ourselves. Family members send amazing things. I've

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Speaker 4: had family members send me autopsy reports.

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Speaker 1: What makes a true crime story like the right kind

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Speaker 1: of story to delve into?

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Speaker 4: For me personally, I'm always fascinated by systems that have failed,

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Speaker 4: like social systems. I'm always fascinated by a story in

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Speaker 4: which you know, the offender has slipped through the net

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Speaker 4: of let's say, the mental health system or the family

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Speaker 4: court system, or you know. We have in Australia very

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Speaker 4: clear how do I describe it? We have really clear

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Speaker 4: data that shows how young men in particular can move

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Speaker 4: through a set of institutions in Australia and become increasingly

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Speaker 4: disconnected from society. They can move through the sort of

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Speaker 4: family court system. They can be the kinds of kids

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Speaker 4: who are in homes that are very dangerous homes where

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Speaker 4: they're subjected to violence and neglect at home, where they

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Speaker 4: come to the attention of the Department of Human Services

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Speaker 4: when they're really little. And these are the sorts of

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Speaker 4: kids who may or may not be even taken out

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Speaker 4: of their family home, but are monitored very closely, and

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Speaker 4: then those kids can oftentimes end up in juvenile detention,

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Speaker 4: so they can go from being the kids that we're

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Speaker 4: most worried about to being the kids that we're most

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Speaker 4: afraid of really really quickly, and then from that point

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Speaker 4: they can end up in adult detention in prison, and

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Speaker 4: there are some really clear like physiological issues associated with

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Speaker 4: that in terms of brain development. So you know, those

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Speaker 4: are the cases that I'm really interested and that's always

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Speaker 4: been the case.

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Speaker 3: If you look back at the really.

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Speaker 4: Violent offenders from the seventies and eighties, like the Chopper

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Speaker 4: Reads and the Mister Renter kills and all of those

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Speaker 4: those guys, those hit men from back in the day,

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Speaker 4: they all went through youth detention as well, and they

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Speaker 4: all came through very similar conditions as well.

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Speaker 3: So there's nothing new about that now.

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Speaker 1: The final thing I want to talk about is parenting,

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Speaker 1: because you've got twins else.

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Speaker 2: I remember when my.

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Speaker 1: Daughter was three months old and I took her to

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Speaker 1: sleep school to teach us both how to sleep really,

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Speaker 1: and there was one woman that had twins, and I

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Speaker 1: just remember thinking, how is she actually surviving this.

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Speaker 2: So I want to know, like, your twins are, how.

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Speaker 3: Old they are? Eleven? Eleven and a.

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Speaker 1: Half, eleven and a half, So tell me what a

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Speaker 1: sum of the parenting hacks that you have found most

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Speaker 1: effective to managing life with twins.

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Speaker 4: Oh again, I would not nominate myself as an expert,

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Speaker 4: but I think the thing with twins for me is

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Speaker 4: that the poor things they just they just don't have

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Speaker 4: a choice but to be good.

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Speaker 3: There was just no option.

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Speaker 4: They could never be spoilt, They could never I mean

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Speaker 4: I could never even carry them around really because there

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Speaker 4: was always another kid. I could never indulge them because

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Speaker 4: there was another kid. They just spent their whole babyhoods

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Speaker 4: hearing the word.

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Speaker 1: Wait, are there any tricks that you have found effective

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Speaker 1: to just taking the pressure off yourself as a mum?

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Speaker 3: Well, just taking the pressure off myself.

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Speaker 4: As a mum, I mean really that simple. Well that's again,

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Speaker 4: that's just the bood is you know, talking is just

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Speaker 4: do it. I mean, the only thing that's putting pressure

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Speaker 4: on you as you The only thing that's real is

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Speaker 4: your reaction to everything. That is the only thing that's

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Speaker 4: really happening. There is no pressure. What is the pressure.

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Speaker 1: Such such a nice thought to finish on, Michelle, because

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Speaker 1: when you say that, you say that's that sounds like

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Speaker 1: you're going mm hmmm, nice thoughts Not for.

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Speaker 2: Me, No, no, no, I do mean that genuinely. My

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Speaker 2: final final.

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Speaker 1: Question, Michelle, is for people that want to consume more

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Speaker 1: of what you are putting out into the world, what

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Speaker 1: is the best way for people to do that?

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Speaker 4: Well, now there's the True Crime Australian True Crime podcast,

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Speaker 4: and there's well, yes, there is that, And there's a

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Speaker 4: book coming out called CSI Told You Lies, which I

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Speaker 4: love because it's about the people who do It's about

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Speaker 4: forensic pathologists and they do the autopsies and I mean

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Speaker 4: they're just the most beautiful people. And I know it

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Speaker 4: sounds weird. Everyone always goes, why would you do that

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Speaker 4: there's a job. Well, they do it because they can

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Speaker 4: and because it's like their public service. And you must

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Speaker 4: read it because you'll realize, God, what beautiful people they are.

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Speaker 4: And the families of the victims are participated in the

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Speaker 4: book as well, so there's some beautiful, beautiful people in

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Speaker 4: the book. And there's also some books on Buddhism as well.

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Speaker 4: If you're interested Buddhism for breakups seems to be the

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Speaker 4: one that everyone likes the most, so you don't even

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Speaker 4: have to be breaking up to read that one.

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Speaker 3: It's just about.

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Speaker 4: Accepting, preventative, accepting that we all change, you know, when

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Speaker 4: you go you're not the person I'm married, it's about going, oh,

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Speaker 4: that's right, you're not meant to be.

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Speaker 3: We're all meant to change. It's okay.

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Speaker 1: Basically I haven't read that one, but as a divorcee,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I should put it on my book list.

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Speaker 3: Perfect. It'll make you stop hating your ex.

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Speaker 1: Excellent Well, Michelle, it has been an absolute joy talking

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Speaker 1: to you. I will link to all those things in

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Speaker 1: the show notes and thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 3: Thank you girl. Bye.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, that is it for today's show. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you are not following or subscribing to How I Work,

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Speaker 1: you might want to hit follow or subscribe wherever you're

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Speaker 1: listening to this from because next week I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to share my interview with Oliver Berkman, who is a

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Speaker 1: writer and columnist for the Guardian, and he thinks a

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Speaker 1: lot about time and time management, and we get into

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Speaker 1: a completely different diff to think about time and how

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Speaker 1: you manage it in next week's show. How I Work

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Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.

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Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Jenna Coder, and thank

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Speaker 1: you to Martin Nimba who did the audio mix and

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Speaker 1: makes everything sound better that it would have otherwise. See

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Speaker 1: you next time.