1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: Today's show is a best of show because I'm taking 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: a few weeks off How I Work, and I am 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: very excited to share today's episode, which was one of 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: my favorite interviews that I've done over the last two 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: and a half years, and that was with Dan Pink. 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: Dan is the author of six best selling books, including Drive, 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: a Whole New Mind, and his latest book When, the 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, which spent four months on 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: the New York Times bestseller list. You might also be 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: familiar with Dan through his ted talk about the Surprising 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: Science of Motivation, which has been viewed over twenty million 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,639 Speaker 1: times times. I have been a Dan Pink fan for many, 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: many years. I tried to get him on the show 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: for ages before I finally secured him, so I was 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: so excited about this chat. I just think he has 21 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: such a knack for dissecting complex science and finding a 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: way to make it not just accessible, but memorable and 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: impactful for his readers. And before I throw to Dan, 24 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: I just want to do a shout out for everyone, 25 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: all you kind people that have left reviews for How 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: I Work. I read every single review and get all 27 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: the star ratings and just thank you you lovely people. 28 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: It just really does bring a huge smile to my face. 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: I'm very, very grateful. And if you are enjoying the 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: work that I'm doing on How I Work and you 31 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: haven't left review, maybe today's the day where you might 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: take five or ten seconds out of your day and 33 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: do that. It is so appreciated and also is a 34 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: great way of helping other people find how I work. 35 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: So on that note, let's head to down to hear 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: about how how he works. Dan, Welcome to the show. 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Amantha. Good to be here. Now. 38 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: I want to start with your books, because you've written 39 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: six books over around the last twenty or so years, 40 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: and I want to start by understanding where do your 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: book ideas come from, and maybe if you can talk 42 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: me through how your latest book when came to. 43 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: Be right, Well, I'll start with the second question. First, 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 2: this latest book when came to be largely out of frustration. 45 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: I was making all kinds of timing decisions in my 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: own life, and everything from when in the day should 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: I exercise, when should I do my writing, and even 48 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: more episodic things like when should I start a project, 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: when should I abandon a project if that's not working. 50 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 2: I was making these decisions in a very haphazard, ill 51 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: informed way, which frustrated me. I wanted to make them 52 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: in a more intelligent way. So I looked around for guidance. 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: It didn't exist. And then I started looking around at 54 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: this wonder not even looking around, just wondering whether there 55 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 2: was any science. And it turned out there was a 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: lot of science on this topic. And that's how I 57 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: got into that. Now that the genesis of this book 58 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: is a little bit different from what often happens, which 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: is that I have files of ideas, and when I 60 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: when I say ideas, they're barely even ideas. They're just 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: shards of stuff. And so I will keep them in 62 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: paper folders. I will keep them in drop box folders, 63 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: I will keep them in email folders. I will keep them. 64 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: I will use ever note, and I return to these things, 65 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: you know, every few months sift through and I always 66 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: have a running list of ideas of stuff I want 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: to work on. And when I return to a lot 68 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: of these ideas, they a lot of the ideas stink, 69 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: so I get rid of those, and it's just a 70 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: constant turn. And my view is that in order to 71 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: have a good idea, you have to have a lot 72 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: of ideas, and when you have a lot of ideas, 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: you have a lot of bad ideas. And I have 74 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: a lot of bad ideas. 75 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: How do you know whether an idea is good or 76 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: whether it stinks? 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: Great question, I'm not sure. I wish there were some 78 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: kind of blood tests, something definitive like that, but there 79 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: is not. Some of it is. It's actually a very 80 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: interesting question on a number of different dimensions. So part 81 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: of it has to do with you know, your own taste, 82 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: and I think in any kind of creative endeavor, people 83 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: develop taste and so something and you say, well, you 84 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: know what, that's not my taste. My intuitive sense of 85 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: of taste says this is not quite right. So that's 86 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: one thing. Second thing would be, is this something I 87 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 2: really want to work on? And a lot of times, 88 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: something that seems really alluring at first turns out to 89 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: be deadening when you explore it a little bit more. 90 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: And then another one would be I like, you know, 91 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: talking to people about various ideas that I have just 92 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: to hear how they react. And the reaction that I 93 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: find most useful is not that's a terrible idea, that's 94 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: a good idea, but huh, that's interesting. Have you thought 95 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: about X, Y or z and so something that engages 96 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: people enough to ask a question. 97 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: And so with your book, when how how did you 98 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: know or when did you know that you were really 99 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: onto something with that? 100 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that I do is I 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: it's another really good question. One of the things that 102 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: I do when I develop a book is that I 103 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: always write a book proposal. Now, typically when writers are 104 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: just starting out, they do book proposals, as you know, 105 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 2: as there have more work behind them, they need less 106 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: elaborate proposals. Topic Often for me, I like writing book 107 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: proposals because it's a test of an idea. And so 108 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: there have been many times when I said, hey, here's 109 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: an idea. It's survived over a couple of years on 110 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: the list I've marshaled some research. Hey, this research looks 111 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: pretty good. And then I'll start writing a book proposal. 112 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: And a book proposal is, you know, not a complicated document. 113 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: It basically it says, here's what this book is about. 114 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 2: Here's where it fits into the whole ecosystem of ideas. 115 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: Here is why I'm the perfect person to write it. Here, 116 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: who's here the people who are going to be interested 117 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: in a book like this, et cetera, et cetera. And 118 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 2: there were many times when I thought I had a 119 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 2: good idea and I started writing the book proposal and 120 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: I was like, no, this is not a good idea. 121 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: It didn't hang together with when it was one of 122 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: the few book proposals that I've written where it just 123 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 2: was like butter, It just smooth and creamy all the 124 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: way through. And that's how I knew that I was 125 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: onto a pretty good idea. 126 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: Ah, I like that. I mean, book proposals are almost 127 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: like the business case of the ride as well. 128 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: I guess absolutely they are. They are more like You're 129 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: totally right, they are more like a business plan than 130 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: a literary product. 131 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. And when you first released when, which I think 132 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: was about a year ago, and I read it from 133 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: memory like a few days after it had come out. 134 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was just such a brilliant idea for 135 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: a book. And I feel like I remember you. I 136 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: feel like I remember you talking in an interview quite 137 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: a few months ago where when was quite hard to 138 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: structure in that you went through a lot of different 139 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: drafts of the Table of contests. Can you talk me 140 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: through what that process was like and how you did 141 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: land on the final structure for the book. 142 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's you know, I'm a big believe 143 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: when it comes to book nonfiction books, I think I 144 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: think the same thing. It's true with fiction. I'm a 145 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: big believer in structure. Structure solves a lot of problems, 146 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: structure makes structure helps out readers, and structure gives you 147 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: a sense of whether what you have has integrity. And 148 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: I tried a couple of approaches to structuring the book. 149 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: I knew there are certain like big elements that I 150 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: wanted in there, but I wasn't sure, and so I 151 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: went through several I don't know, maybe fifteen or so, 152 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: as you say, draft table of contents, just to feel 153 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: how it all to feel how it all hung together. 154 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: And I just had a sense And again it goes 155 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: back to one of your early questions that this is 156 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: just not quite right. And once again I would bounce 157 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: it off of other people, not a huge number of people, 158 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: but I would say, hey, what do you think of this? 159 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: What do you think of that? And you know, and 160 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: I wanted to see how other people responded, and I 161 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: think I began simply saying, Okay, you know what I'm 162 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: going to do. I know this is a chapter, so 163 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: let me write this chapter and then put the total 164 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: structure aside. But over time, if you just keep coming 165 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: back to it, and keep coming back to it, and 166 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 2: keep coming back to it, you will find the material 167 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 2: in some ways will tell you you what the structure is. 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: But again, not everybody agrees with me, not every rid 169 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: agrees with them. But I think structure matters enormously. And 170 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 2: I see too many books out there that are poorly constructed, wobbly, 171 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: and I think it makes it harder for readers to 172 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: enjoy the book and get something from the ideas presented 173 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: in it. 174 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: Couldn't agree more. And I really like the structure that 175 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: you landed on. I feel like it's not like with 176 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: some books you read them and it's a pretty intuitive structure. 177 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: You kind of go well of course it's structured that way, 178 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: but I like where you landed with when I feel 179 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: like it's not the most intuitive structure, but it works 180 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: really well in terms of I guess, constructing the arguments. Yeah, 181 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: and I want to talk about the title as well, 182 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: for when and how did the title come to you? 183 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 2: This is one of those titles are hard, and I've 184 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: always I've wrestled with titles for various books that I've 185 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: that I've that I've worked on a lot of I mean, 186 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: titles are you know, mostly art, maybe is a little 187 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: bit of science, and I've changed and a lot of 188 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: times I've had books that start out with one title, 189 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: and then as the research and writing goes on, the 190 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: title changes, and the changes again and changes again, changes again. 191 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: This one actually had the same title in the proposal 192 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: as it did in the final cover. The book was 193 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: always called when. I'm not sure why that one held up. 194 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: Whereas other books that I've had have changed their titles 195 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: a lot, and we have wrestled with them. Now now 196 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: occasionally now authors and publishers will do some testing, some 197 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: market testing of titles, and you know, I'm I think 198 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: that can be a good idea many in many cases 199 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: but but I have I have read, wrestled with I 200 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: have wrestled with things. And sometimes when I go back 201 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: to the both the paper and electronic files of other books, 202 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: I forget I don't find them. You know. I look 203 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: at a book called you know, I wrote a book 204 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: called Drive about the signs of motivation. And that book 205 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 2: was not called Drive until very close to the end. 206 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: And so all my files are labeled something else you 207 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 2: because that's what you know, whatever the title was back then. 208 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: So titles are titles are. Titles are tricky. And what 209 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: I have found is that I'm much better is a 210 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: common attribute of problem solving is that sometimes we're better 211 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: off solving other people's problems than our own. I'm pretty 212 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: good at coming up with titles for other people. I 213 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: stink it coming up with titles for myself. 214 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: And I actually wanted to delve into that. I remember 215 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: when I read Give and Take by Adam Grant, reading 216 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: in the acknowledgments that he'd thank to you for coming 217 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: up with the title for that book. And and so 218 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: what is that process like when you're advising someone on 219 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: a title. 220 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: Wow, that's some careful reading of acknowledgments there. 221 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: I love the acknowledgment sections of books. 222 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: Yes, so do I I actually love them too. I'm sorry, 223 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. What was the question? 224 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: I want to know, like, what's the process that we forgotten? 225 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: Now? I was so amazed that someone had read the 226 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: polishment in a book. 227 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: I feel like writers love the acknowledgment section, and being 228 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: a writer, I love that section. I feel like it 229 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: gives you interesting insight. But yeah, with Adam Grant's book, 230 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: Give and Take, he said that he credits you with 231 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: coming up for the title. And I don't know if 232 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: you remember how how you did that or how that 233 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: process works for you. 234 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: I do remember that particular incident because I live in 235 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: I live in the east coast of the United States, Washington, 236 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: d c. The federal capital of the United States of America, 237 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 2: and I have been self employed for twenty years, and 238 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: because I am a staunch believer in low overhead, I 239 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: have never had an office outside of my home, and 240 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: these days, for the last eight years or so, eight 241 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: plus years, I have worked in the garage behind my house. 242 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: And whenever this was not probably seven years ago or so, 243 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: I'd gotten to know Adam and he came over and 244 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: we were talking about the idea of this particular book 245 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: that he was contemplating writing, and I thought it was great. 246 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: I thought it was a great topic. I thought he'd 247 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: be a great person to write it. It's a book 248 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: that I absolutely like at that moment, I wanted to read. 249 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: So I was really excited about it. And for whatever reason, 250 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: I said, hey, I think this is your title, and 251 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: it ended up being the title. 252 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: So wow. 253 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: I guess I was inspired by I was inspired by 254 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: his excellent idea, I think, and I also, I guess 255 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 2: in some part of me wanted to help make this 256 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 2: book come to fruition so I could read it. 257 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: M I did that. Did that sort of spark of 258 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: inspiration just come to you or were you thinking, I 259 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: guess of you know, different phrases that were in like 260 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: the vernacular. Do you remember how that happened? 261 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: I don't remember that well enough. But see, I actually 262 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 2: like trying to come up with titles, and because yeah, 263 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: it's I just think it's a really interesting exercise in 264 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: thinking in creativity. But it's one where if I'm not 265 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: integrally involved, I probably do it a little bit better 266 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: than if it's something that has that's something that has 267 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: my name on it. 268 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: And so what's your starting point for that? Like, you know, 269 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: if you were to give advice to a writer who's 270 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: struggling with the title of their book, like, what what 271 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: kind of roots would you recommend that they explore? 272 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: What I would that's another really interesting question. What I 273 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: would suggest would be I'll tell you what I do. 274 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: What I listen for when someone comes to me with 275 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: this issue is I want to hear how they talk 276 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: about it, and I want to ask them questions about it, 277 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: and I want to look for phrases, words turns of 278 00:14:54,680 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: phrase that somehow seem fresh and novel and interesting and 279 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: make me want to explore. And again, it's there's probably 280 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: a way if I were to completely reconstruct this kind 281 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,119 Speaker 2: of advice, it would be a little bit more systematic 282 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: than that. But but I think there's something to be 283 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: said when it comes to titles for talking about your 284 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: stuff out loud, not giving a speech or anything, but 285 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: just telling your friend or your spouse or another writer, Hey, 286 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: what are you working? Oh, it's about this, that and 287 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: the other thing. And a lot of times within that 288 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: description there'll be a word or phrase that just seems 289 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: really delicious, and you just take that piece of fruit 290 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 2: up the vine. 291 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: Well, I like that. That's that's nice and I think 292 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: good advice for anyone that's thinking about naming any kind 293 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: of a project, whether it be a book or something else. 294 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's also there's also a there's also something 295 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: to be said for generating a lot of ideas for names. 296 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: So and so one thing that you can do for 297 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: generating titles is just, you know, get three or four 298 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: people together and say, okay, we are going to generate. 299 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: We're going to sit here for half an hour and 300 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: we're going to come up with sixty possible titles. And 301 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: you just start like spitting things out and building up 302 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: of other people's ideas. And out of that sixty, you know, 303 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: fifty of them are going to be horrible ideas, but 304 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: within that remaining ten one of them might be decent. 305 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah. I want to move on to to understanding, 306 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: like what are some of the practical strategies that you 307 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: apply in your own working life? And I imagine that 308 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: like writing a book like When, which I feel is 309 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: full of really interesting ideas but also is incredibly practical, 310 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of really tactical advice in the book, 311 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: which I love, Like what have been some of I guess, 312 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, out of When or out of any of 313 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: the research that you've done, all the books that you've 314 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: written have been sort of the most impactful I guess, 315 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: tactical things that you've changed about how you work and 316 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: how you work currently in my own life. 317 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean When had a lot of those. So, 318 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: for instance, one of the ideas and when has to 319 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: do with the pattern of our performance and our attention 320 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: and our mood over the course of a day, and 321 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: how we go through this day typically in three stages, 322 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: a peak, a trough, and a recovery. Most of us 323 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: go in that order. Night outs go in a very 324 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: different order. And I realize I'm looking at some of 325 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: this research that I should be doing my heads down 326 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: analytic work writing first thing in the morning, and definitely 327 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: in the morning. And I change my schedule around there 328 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: so that on writing days, I will set myself a 329 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: word count, however many words, you know, not a lot, 330 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: seven hundred words, say, and I will come into my office. 331 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: I don't come in exceptionally early. I come in at 332 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 2: half past eight, and I'll say, okay, today I got 333 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: to write at seven hundred words, and I won't bring 334 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: my phone into the office with me, will not open 335 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: up my email, I will not do anything until i 336 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: hit those seven hundred words and then I'm free to 337 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: do other things and that. And so the idea that 338 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: this peak period, this idea that the research showing that 339 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: I had this three or four hour peak of vigilance 340 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: and ability not to be distracted, that I shouldn't fritter 341 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: that away answering email or going on Twitter or any 342 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: of that nonsense. I really stuck to that and use 343 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: that kind of schedule to actually write this particular book. 344 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 2: And this is the first. Out of the six, five 345 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: of them were late, only one was on time, and 346 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 2: this was the one on time. 347 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's interesting. And how like I mean, does 348 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: it require much willpower for you to stay off all 349 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: those digital distractions in the morning. 350 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: I'm not a big believer in willpower. I think when 351 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 2: you start having to use willpower, you're already using the game. 352 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: What I do is is reconstruct the environment. So so 353 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: for instance, as I said, I don't bring my phone 354 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: in the office with me, so I can't check my phone, 355 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 2: I can't check my text messages or anything like that. 356 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: And I literally do not open up any of my 357 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: email program, any of my email program. I have two 358 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: computers in my office. I don't email open up the 359 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 2: email program. I'm either computer in my office. I just 360 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: don't open it. And you know, I guess for the 361 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 2: first few days, I get to be, you know, maybe 362 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: a little bit itchy and twitchy about opening it up, 363 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: but after that it just seems normal. So again, to me, 364 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: the key is constructing the environment in a way to 365 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: eliminate distractions. And so that's both the physical environment but 366 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: also the temporal environment. So if I come in and 367 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: the environment doesn't have any distractions, and I'm doing it 368 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: at the right time of day, then I have a 369 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 2: fighting chance to get some writing done. And I'm I. 370 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: Other people are different, but I am very I rely 371 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: a lot on momentum. And so for me, if I 372 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 2: do something, if I do that on day one, and 373 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: then day two and then day three, I get into 374 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: this rhythm where each day becomes slightly easier because I've 375 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: done something the day before. I'm not one of those 376 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 2: you know, there are writers out there who I say, 377 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: there are a couple of writers here in the United States 378 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: who are also TV presenters, and two of them who 379 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of. I don't want to say the names 380 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: because I don't want to. I actually admire what you're doing, 381 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: but I don't want to be disrespectful. Is that they 382 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: will during the commercial breaks write their newspaper column on 383 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: their phone, just like, oh, two minutes and that let's 384 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: go to commercial. And then there's too many commercial break 385 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: and then they'll they'll write a few sentences or a 386 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: few you know, paragraph on their newspaper column and then oh, 387 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 2: we're back. I could never do anything like that. Or 388 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 2: there's another there's another fellow who very accomplished author, very 389 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: smart guy, who is a he's a physician. There are 390 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: a lot of physician writers out there. But you know 391 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: these physicians who, oh, I'm going to write. I always 392 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: write a few paragraphs in between surgeries. That's not me. 393 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: Wow, that's yeah, that's not me either. How do you 394 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: use the other two sections of your day? 395 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: I use the early to mid afternoon typically for answering 396 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: email and putting. I'm a big I have a lot 397 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: of files, paper files, and like filing stuff away and 398 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 2: oh I need to scan this thing and put it 399 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: into drop you know that kind of stuff that doesn't 400 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 2: require heavy load, and then during their cover period, which 401 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: is basically like the mid to late afternoon and early evening, 402 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 2: I generally do interviews. So interviews like this one are 403 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 2: also even interviews when I am asking questions. So that 404 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: period of the day, so the peak again for most 405 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: of us early in the day, that's when we're most vigilant. 406 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: We should be doing our heads down work the trough 407 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 2: early to mid afternoon. That is a really bad time 408 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: of day. Our mental performance, cognitive skills are way down. 409 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 2: And so I do my administrative stuff then, and then 410 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: when I come out of the trough, you know, around 411 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: whenever three o'clock, three thirty four o'clock in the afternoon, 412 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 2: I tend to do interviews like this or things that 413 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: require not necessarily be lockdown and vigilant, but just to 414 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 2: be open to possibility, open to ideas a little bit 415 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: more mentally loose. 416 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: And how do you manage your emails? Like I imagine 417 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: you must be inundebted with them? And I remember when yeah, okay, 418 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: well look I remember when I first reached out to you, 419 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: which is many months ago, there was almost like this 420 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: gatekeeper software that you had in place. Can you talk 421 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: about that? 422 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: Yes, I do I use that. Yeah, I did that 423 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 2: because I was just getting so many emails and I 424 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 2: was also getting a lot of spam as well on 425 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: certain email addresses that were public, and so so I 426 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 2: just use a program called short Whale. And what that 427 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 2: is is essential. It's just like a form, and so 428 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: it says who are you, and what's the topic, and 429 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: how quickly do you need a response, and then gives 430 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 2: people a short, short, short amount of room to make 431 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 2: to say what they want. And I find that at 432 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 2: I find that as a pretty effective, pretty effective system 433 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: for organizing the emails that come in and also just 434 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: forcing people to be brief. What I don't like is 435 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 2: getting a one thousand word email from someone whom I've 436 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: never heard of before. Very unlikely that I'm going to 437 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: read that carefully. But if somebody, if a reader says, 438 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: if a reader says, hey, I read your book whatever, 439 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: and I have one question. Here it is, and the 440 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: email is two short paragraphs or three four sentences, yeah, 441 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to try to answer that. But if someone 442 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: sends me an email saying someone says me in the 443 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: email saying, I've never read any of your books, but 444 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 2: here's my life story in fifteen hundred words and can 445 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 2: we meet to have coffee? I'm probably going to say. 446 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: No, And I want to get into that actually, like 447 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: because I imagine a lot of the emails that you 448 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: receive a request for your time, And how do you, like, 449 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: aside from the obvious, like, how do you decide what 450 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: to say yes to and what to say no to, 451 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: particularly for those opportunities that are perhaps not black and white. 452 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: That's another really great question, and I don't really have 453 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: a good way to do that, and I've changed over 454 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: the years, and I think it's an important question for 455 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: creators and artists to ask. And I can argue both 456 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 2: sides of it. It's at one point, at some point, 457 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: it's certain moments in one's working life, it's really advantageous 458 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: say yes to everything, because, especially if you're not that 459 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: you know, if you're just starting out, or you know, 460 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: you're trying to get your ideas out there, in some ways, 461 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: the default answer should be yes. I think that when 462 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: you're actually in the act of creating something or or 463 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: a little bit more established, I think in some ways 464 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: the default answer should be no. And so what I've 465 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: seen over the years is that, especially now because it's 466 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: so distracting, and there's so much stuff coming in, is 467 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: the default answer is generally going to be no. Someone 468 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 2: has to overcome the default that it's a no. 469 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: Do you remember or I guess? Like, how do you 470 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: know when when you've reached that tipping point when you 471 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: should change your default from yes to no? 472 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 2: You don't? You don't. It's a great question, And you 473 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: know there's certain moments even in and there isn't a 474 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: systematic that I know of a systematic way too. There 475 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 2: isn't a systematic way to do that, and you know, 476 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: and you got to do what feels right and authentic 477 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: to you as an individual as well. There's some people 478 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 2: who love saying yes to a lot of stuff and 479 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 2: who love having lots of things going on. Then there 480 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 2: are people like me who can't multitask, who don't like 481 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: working on lots of parallel projects, who are you know, 482 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 2: much more narrow in the way that they approach things. 483 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: Do you have a strategy for saying no politely that 484 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: you've developed over the years? 485 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: I do you know? Because again it's like, you know, 486 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: people aren't trying to be route And what I will 487 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: do is I will try very hard to answer questions 488 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: about the books from readers. I really do try to 489 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: answer all of those. I mean, I honestly don't do 490 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: it immediately, but I will often organize them into batches. 491 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 2: Just sit down for you know, an hour or two 492 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: and answer thirty or forty or fifty or sixty or 493 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 2: one hundred emails from readers asking questions or things like that. 494 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 2: So I try to do that. For people who want 495 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: something else, I just try to be polite and say, 496 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: you know, basically what I said to you, which is 497 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: that I'm terrible at doing two things at one time. 498 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: I'm a terrible multitasker. I'm terrible at having parallel products 499 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 2: going on, and right now I'm trying to focus on 500 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: one or two key projects. So unfortunately I have to 501 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 2: say no to most things. So but thanks for contacting me, 502 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 2: and you know, I just you know, and i'd like, 503 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: you know, I just hope that you know the books 504 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: that you're writing, or the film that you're making, or 505 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: this album you're producing or whatever goes really well. 506 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, nice. I want to talk about keynote speeches because 507 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: I imagine that how a lot of listeners would know 508 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: you is through your very famous Ted talk, which I 509 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: think has received something over twenty million views. And I 510 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 1: want to know, like, what's your process for translating a 511 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: book into a speech? 512 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, another great question. Well, here's the thing. The a 513 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: book is going to have so much more material in it. Well, 514 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: I mean a good book. It's just not everybody abised 515 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: by this, but a book should and ideally have significantly 516 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: more material than you could even begin to present in 517 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 2: say a half an hour talk. And so I think 518 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: the key is to figure out think about what the 519 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: audience is and what's the best half hour set of 520 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: material for them. And you know, the way you talk 521 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: about something in front of a group and the way 522 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: that you actually write it are going to be somewhat different. 523 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: And so you know, I generally will talk about it, 524 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: maybe do like a short talk to a very very 525 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: very very very small group of people, like literally around 526 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: the table, and do that a few times and see 527 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: what to see how people react, and then maybe do 528 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 2: some things that are for very small audiences of you know, 529 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: let's say fifteen people or something like that, just to 530 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: see how people react, sort of like putting out a 531 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: stage production. You go off off Broadway. Then you go 532 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: off Broadway and you get it right until you go 533 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: to Broadway. 534 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and where do you start? Like when when you're 535 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: sitting down constructing the first draft of a speech, like 536 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: are you looking through the book going what are the 537 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: most impactful points I can make? Or like what's the 538 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: overall idea? Like where's that starting point? 539 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: I actually start with the audience and so and think 540 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: about try to think about it as much as possible 541 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 2: from the audience's perspective. So if you think about, you know, okay, 542 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: so you know, here these folks and they're going to 543 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: be sitting there for half an hour, they're imprisoned there 544 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: having to listen to me. What is going to be 545 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: is what is going to be entertaining for them, engaging 546 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: for them, interesting to them, And what among all of 547 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: this is going to make them say, you know, because 548 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: what I want is at the end of that half 549 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 2: hour to say, Hey, I'm glad I spent that half 550 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: hour listening to this guy, rather than checking my email, 551 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: rather than hanging out with my spouse, rather than taking 552 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: care of my kids, rather than going to the gym. 553 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: That was a good use of a half hour. And 554 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: so it's going to vary from audience to audience and 555 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: so I always start. 556 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: With the audience and what questions like would you ask 557 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: yourself when when you're kind of unpacking the audience in 558 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: preparation for designing a presentation, Uh, you know, one. 559 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: Thing would be out of all the material out of 560 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: all the materials that I have, what are the two 561 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: or three things that this that this particular audience might 562 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 2: might react to saying oh hm, I never knew that. 563 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: I never thought of it that way. And then what 564 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 2: are some takeaways that would be most useful to this 565 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: particular audience. So if it's an audience of doctors, it 566 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: might have it's obviously going to have a different takeaway 567 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: than if it's an audience of consumer package good marketers 568 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 2: or high school principles or you know, military officers. 569 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: M Yeah, that makes sense, makes sense. And now, like 570 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: in the last few minutes that we've got, I want 571 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: to briefly touch on what are some of the things 572 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: that you're consuming, because I think it can be so 573 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: hard for the average person to know, like what should 574 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: they spend their time listening to, reading and so forth. 575 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: And I know I listened to the kind of what 576 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: it was that a secret podcast that you're released to 577 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: your subscribers actually just Yesterday, which had some great recommendations. 578 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: But I'd love to delve into some different things that 579 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: perhaps you didn't mention. So I'd love to know podcasts. 580 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: So you were a big podcast consumer, and if so, 581 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: what are some of the ones that you listen to regularly. 582 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: I am actually not a huge podcast consumer. Part of 583 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 2: that is that I think one reason for that is 584 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: that I don't ute in a car, so I think 585 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: that's where a lot of people listen to their podcasts. 586 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: And I tend to be interested in episodes rather than 587 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 2: in a particular show, so I will rely on recommendation. 588 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: That's one of where I rely on recommendations from people. 589 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: There are a few that I there are a few 590 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: that I do look at, Like there's a here in 591 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: the States. There's a national public radio podcast called Hidden 592 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: Brain that I listened to a lot. There is The 593 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: New York Times has a podcast called The Daily that 594 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: I listen to a lot. But I'm really focused on episodes, 595 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: and you know, people recommending episodes to me rather than 596 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 2: religiously listening to a single show. 597 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: HM. That's a really interesting way I've approaching it and 598 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: thinking about twenty nineteen was what was the best book 599 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: that you read last year? 600 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: Huh. I read a lot of good books last year. 601 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: I mean on the nonfiction side. Two of the best 602 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: books that I've read. One of them was called The 603 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: Art of Gathering by Pria Parker, and it's a book 604 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: about gatherings and how everything from corporate off sites to 605 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: dinners with friends, to having people over to your house 606 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: to whatever parties or whatever. And she has this really 607 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: fascinating way of thinking about how to be much more 608 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: intentional about gatherings. What's the purpose of gatherings, Why it's 609 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 2: important not to be a chill host at the gatherings, 610 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: why you should exclude people, And it just made me 611 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: rethink a like even so, for instance, tonight, my family 612 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 2: is having another family over for dinner, and I'm thinking 613 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 2: about that book, about Okay, how can we make this 614 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: a gathering that is meaningful to everybody. Another book that 615 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: I loved was called Rulemaker Rule Breakers by Michelle Gelfand, 616 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: who is a cultural psychologist at the University of Maryland, 617 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: and it's about really about her whole life's work on 618 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: what she calls tight cultures and loose cultures. Tight cultures 619 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: our cultures with lots of rules, pretty black and white. 620 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 2: Loose cultures are cultures without so many rules, a little 621 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: bit more gray. And it turns out that this deep 622 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: structure of loose and tight explains many, many, many things, 623 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: from national differences, to class differences, to different parenting styles, 624 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So those are two. But there's 625 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: so many good books that come out each year, so 626 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 2: many good books that come out each year, that it's 627 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 2: hard to keep up out of interest. 628 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: How do you decide which books that you will raid 629 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: and white raid? 630 00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: Uh? I really don't have a systematic way of doing that. 631 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 2: I have these giant piles, and some of it depends 632 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 2: on some of it depends on my mood, what I 633 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: feel like doing at that particular moment. So the last 634 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: book I finished was a book called I read a 635 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: fair amount of fiction too. I don't read only nonfiction. 636 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 2: I read a fair amount of fiction. And the last 637 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: book I literally finished it last night as we're talking here, 638 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: is called It's a Book Amazingly Enough by James Patterson, 639 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: who sold fourteen gazillion books, and Bill Clinton, the former 640 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: US president, called The President is Missing. It's a thriller, 641 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 2: and I think I picked that. I picked up that 642 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: book because I think I was going on like a 643 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 2: short vacation and I wanted something that was totally easy 644 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 2: and escapist. But I didn't get to it then, and 645 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 2: then I just I think I picked it up one 646 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: night when I couldn't sleep and wanted something that was 647 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 2: an easy read, and so I finally finished it last night. 648 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: It wasn't very good. 649 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: Okay, good noted two quick final questions. So again, going 650 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: back to the acknowledgment section of the book, you thanked 651 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: your wife in when for reading your books out loud, 652 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: and I was so curious, why do you do that? 653 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: Why do you go through that process? 654 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: Well, part of it is that I'm crazy and insane 655 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: and anal retena, But I find that reading out loud 656 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 2: helps me immensely in writing better. So nearly everything I 657 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: write of significance. So you know, books or articles I 658 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: will read out loud because to me, it's just a 659 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 2: test of does it sound right? You know, are there 660 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 2: words in there that are clunkers? Is it as year 661 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,959 Speaker 2: and gleaming as it could possibly be? At the same time, though, 662 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 2: I like to hear the work read to me, and 663 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 2: there's only one person in the world who is willing 664 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 2: to sit in a chair and read me my work, 665 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 2: and that is my wife. And I learn a lot 666 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 2: that way too, so hearing putting my hearing it so 667 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: so again it's you know, people have different ways of 668 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: doing things. I just settled on a way that works, 669 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 2: that works for me. But for me reading out loud 670 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: and hearing the work read out loud it is for 671 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 2: better is It is a significant part of my editing process. 672 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: It's very time consuming, it's very laborious, but that's how 673 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: I do things awesome. 674 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: And finally, Dan, how can people find out more about 675 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: you and your work? 676 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 2: They can go to my website which is www. Danpink 677 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: d a n p nk dot com. And I've got 678 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 2: an email newsletter, all kinds of groovy stuff in the 679 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: resource sections, some videos, all kinds of great stuff off 680 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 2: at the low low price. 681 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: Of free fantastic And I must say I love your 682 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: newsletter and I will link to all that in the 683 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: show notes. So, Dan, thank you so much for coming 684 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: on the show. Has just been an absolute privilege to 685 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: hear about how you work. 686 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 2: Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure to have you to 687 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: get your intriguing questions I'm glad I did this at 688 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: the right time of day. 689 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed my 690 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: chat with Dan, why not share it with someone else 691 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: who you think could benefit from some of the pearls 692 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: of wisdom that Dan shared. I just personally love this 693 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: chat so much. And if you are enjoying how I work, 694 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: why not hit subscribe wherever you listen to this podcast 695 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: and that way you will get alerted as to whenever 696 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: new episodes drop. So that is it for today and 697 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: I will see you next time.