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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers now.

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Speaker 1: Last week on the Happy Families Podcast, I had a

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Speaker 1: fascinating and really delightful conversation with Karina Savage. Karina is

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Speaker 1: a pediatric dietitian. She runs Nourishing Kids. You can find

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Speaker 1: her at Nourish with Karina dot com. Linked to that

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. But we almost talked about something

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Speaker 1: that I have always wanted to know about. I've nearly

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Speaker 1: bought several books about it, but I just I'm not

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Speaker 1: a dietitian and I don't really want to spend ten

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Speaker 1: hours and two hundred and fifty pages reading about it.

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Speaker 1: I just want somebody to give me the facts, especially

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Speaker 1: as it relates to kids. And Karina said she'd come

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Speaker 1: back and do that, and so this podcast really for me.

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Speaker 1: I'm being a little bit selfish, but we'll make it

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Speaker 1: about parenting. We'll make it about kids as well. But

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Speaker 1: really I just want to know about this gut byome

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Speaker 1: thing because I've been told if I have a healthy

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Speaker 1: guard then I'm gonna, i don't know, do better in

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Speaker 1: life or something. I don't really get it. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm going to sleep better, or my brain's going to

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Speaker 1: work better, I'll have more energy. I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what my gut biome is. Karina

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Speaker 1: Savage is going to help me with that. Karina, thanks

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Speaker 1: for joining me today again.

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Speaker 3: Pleasure so great to be here.

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Speaker 1: So you've been a pediatric dietitian for twenty three years

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Speaker 1: and when I mentioned gut biome stuff, your eyes lit

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Speaker 1: up and you said, oh my goodness, We've got to

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Speaker 1: talk about that, And of course we got too busy

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Speaker 1: talking about other things. If I'm brand new to this idea,

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Speaker 1: I haven't even heard the word. Or maybe I've heard

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Speaker 1: people talk about having a healthy gut, but I don't

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Speaker 1: really get what this biome thing is. In other words,

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Speaker 1: if my name is Justin cole Someoni, I'm now talking

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Speaker 1: to a dietician about it, give us the like the

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Speaker 1: thirty second reader's digest version of it. What is the

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Speaker 1: gut biome?

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Speaker 3: So, the gut biome or the gut microbiome is really

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Speaker 3: to do with the bacterial communities in your gut.

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Speaker 1: This is the whole proboi its sort of thing. Is

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Speaker 1: that what you're talking about?

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Speaker 3: Yees? So it's to do with the bacteria in your gut,

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Speaker 3: because we have a lot of bacteria in our gut,

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Speaker 3: like gazillions affect AGAP and what we want is we

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Speaker 3: want a really good balance of the good bugs and

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Speaker 3: the bad bugs in our guts.

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Speaker 1: So that so we want bad bugs in our gut,

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Speaker 1: a balance, Yes, we.

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Speaker 3: Want a balance, yeah mostly, but we want that balance

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Speaker 3: because you really need. It's what we call symbiosis, where

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Speaker 3: there's a balance of the good and the bad bugs

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Speaker 3: and everything is in balance, everything is in I guess well,

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Speaker 3: the terminology is symbiosis. So it's a dis biosis when

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Speaker 3: we have an imbalance of the good bugs and the

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Speaker 3: bad bugs, when more of the bad bugs are populating

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Speaker 3: and growing, and a poor diet will contribute to that.

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Speaker 3: But there are many factors that influence our gut microbiome

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Speaker 3: and we try to rectify it by taking probiotics to

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Speaker 3: put more of the good bugs in. There as many factors.

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Speaker 3: So right from when you're in utero is when your

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Speaker 3: gut microbiome starts developing and we are influenced by multiple

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Speaker 3: factors to do with our mother in utero then and

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Speaker 3: we are born. Our motive delivery impacts. I got microbiome.

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Speaker 3: I've heard.

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Speaker 1: I've heard about this. So if you're if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're a Caesar baby versus a vaginal birth baby, your

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Speaker 1: biome changes, like you have a different micro biome depending

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Speaker 1: on how you're actually born.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So when you're born vaginally, you pick up microbes

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Speaker 3: associated with your mother down that end, and then when

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Speaker 3: you're born abbat sun route you pick up microbes associated

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Speaker 3: with the skin and the hospital environment. And there's been

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Speaker 3: a lot of research into this and then linked to

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Speaker 3: increased risk of allergies, obesity and whatnot with the different

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Speaker 3: modive delivery.

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Speaker 1: And now that we're not that we're.

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Speaker 2: Trying to shame any parents who have had a Caesar

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Speaker 2: because sometimes you're just going to baby and you turn

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Speaker 2: it out fine, right, Wow, When I have these conversations

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Speaker 2: or not about this, but about these kinds of topics,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people will there's shame and guilt around.

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Speaker 1: All the sort of stuff. We're not, We're just we're

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Speaker 1: just hollowing. There's risks associated one thing that don't exist

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Speaker 1: with the other thing that's not We're not throwing shaded anyway.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And yes, sorry, I was going to say at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, the most important thing is

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Speaker 3: the baby's born healthy. Right, So, like you know, there's

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Speaker 3: absolutely no guilt of shame. Korea.

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Speaker 1: Tell me this, What are the benefits to having a symbiotic?

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Speaker 1: Here we go, I'm using all my big words and

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Speaker 1: I just love it. What are the benefits of having

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Speaker 1: a symbiotic gut microbiome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so when you've got a symbio, a healthy gut microbiome,

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Speaker 3: your immune system is working much better. Because most of

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Speaker 3: our immune system, about seventy percent of our immune system,

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Speaker 3: is actually in the gastro intestinal tract. So what we

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Speaker 3: want is we want our cells in our gut to

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Speaker 3: have tight cell junctions. We want a thick mucus layer,

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Speaker 3: and that helps protect all the baddies. So when we eat,

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Speaker 3: you know what we eat food, we breathe and we

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Speaker 3: get exposed to viruses and bugs all the time. But

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Speaker 3: what happens is they go into our gut. Our immune

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Speaker 3: system works, it keeps them out. We poo them out again. Right,

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Speaker 3: it's when we've got a loose cell junctions, we get

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Speaker 3: a leaky gut. When I'm because is not thick and

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Speaker 3: protecting our our body as it should. Be that's when

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Speaker 3: we're more prone to getting sick. And so that's why

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Speaker 3: we need a strong gut micro and we need strong

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Speaker 3: gut health because that's most of where our immune system

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Speaker 3: is now. Our microbes also are like messengers, so when

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Speaker 3: they metabolize food, they also produce messages and metabolized and

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Speaker 3: that impacts there's a gut brain axis. It impacts so

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Speaker 3: many parts about health.

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Speaker 1: All right, this is fascinating to me. I have seventy

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Speaker 1: three questions for you based on what you just said.

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Speaker 1: Let's go bit by bit something that I've noticed. I'm

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Speaker 1: just a person who I only get sick once or

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Speaker 1: twice a year. It's usually because I'm run down, it's

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Speaker 1: because I'm exhausted. But I've witnessed I've watched friends of

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Speaker 1: the family or whatever over the years, and they're always sick.

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Speaker 1: The kids are always sick people. And so what I'm

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Speaker 1: hearing you say is much of this could be linked

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Speaker 1: to gut biome health, which therefore is linked to the

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Speaker 1: way we're eating. And that's the fundamental if we get

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Speaker 1: our diet right. And my diet is not fabulous, but

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Speaker 1: it's let me rephrase, I've actually got a pretty good diet,

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Speaker 1: but I chuck a bit of bad food in there

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Speaker 1: with all the good stuff. Yeah, but if somebody is

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Speaker 1: not getting all the good stuff, then they're throwing their

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Speaker 1: gut out of balance. It's no longer symbiotic. It's what

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Speaker 1: did you say, ds biotic dysbiotic?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, imbalance right? Done? Well, Well, I'm trying to be

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Speaker 1: a quick learner here. So how do we get a

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Speaker 1: healthy gut? How do we get our gut healthy so

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Speaker 1: that we can not get crook every time somebody sneezes

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Speaker 1: near us?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So, as I said, those first three years are

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Speaker 3: pretty influential in setting up a really healthy immune system

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Speaker 3: that effectively puts a health stamp on us. But then

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Speaker 3: from then on healthy diet, basically using probotics if needed.

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Speaker 3: I use probiotics in certain cases, especially in the allergy world.

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Speaker 3: I've got lots of kids with allergies. But it's about

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Speaker 3: plant foods.

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Speaker 1: Is it.

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Speaker 3: The end of the day, you'll hear this word probiotics.

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Speaker 3: It's the sexy name for fiber. Okay. So plant foods

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Speaker 3: feed the gut bugs and they populate the good bugs

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Speaker 3: in our gut. That's really what we need. Junk food

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Speaker 3: will populate the bad bugs. If we're not feeding fiber

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Speaker 3: into our gut, then our gut bugs aren't fed, and

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Speaker 3: then they actually turn on the on our own mucouslayer

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Speaker 3: and net gut, and that's when it becomes catchy.

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Speaker 1: So we need fiber.

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Speaker 3: We need plant foods, So plenty of wholesome fruits, vegebles

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Speaker 3: and ut seeds, grainy carps, blakis, baked beans, you know,

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Speaker 3: all of those foods. Oh it's porridge. Putting fiber into

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Speaker 3: our gut feeds the good bugs and that in turn

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Speaker 3: keeps our immune systems strong.

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say this and my brain is exploding

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Speaker 1: because an orange day. I know everyone says an apple

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Speaker 1: a day keeps the doctor away, but for me, it's

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Speaker 1: an orange whenever the kids are sick, whenever the kids

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Speaker 1: have it like a mouth ulcer or a headache or anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, if you just have an orange every day,

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Speaker 1: you'll be okay. And what I'm hearing you really say

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Speaker 1: is the orange provides all this fiber, which healthy is

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Speaker 1: up the microbiome in the dart makes it more symbiotic,

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Speaker 1: makes it more healthy, and that works. Let me ask

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Speaker 1: you this. I'm thinking as you're talking about this lack

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Speaker 1: of health from too much bad food. Inflammation is a

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Speaker 1: word that popped into my head as you were talking

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Speaker 1: about this. To what extent do we see inflammation as

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Speaker 1: a result of a poor biome? Am I in the

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Speaker 1: right ballpark here? Or is this a totally different thing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So no, Again, poor diet influences with gut microbes

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Speaker 3: and then that drives inflammation. So poor diet can also

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Speaker 3: directly impact on inflammation. So high sugar, high food chemicals,

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Speaker 3: it's all related, absolutely, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So my sense therefore is that if we can get

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Speaker 1: more fiber into our kids' diets and into our own diets,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be healthier. We're going to do better

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Speaker 1: at school or better at work, to be more energetic,

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Speaker 1: we're going to sleep better, we're going to have better

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Speaker 1: immune function. Like, there's no downsides, it's only upside if

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Speaker 1: we can get that fiber in, which brings me the

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Speaker 1: big challenging question. I know we sort of touched on

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Speaker 1: this a bit last week, but as a parent who

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Speaker 1: has a couple of kids who aren't really big on

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Speaker 1: eating all of the green leafy vegetables or any vegetables

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Speaker 1: at all, really and they just like the beige diet.

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Speaker 1: How do you get that fiber into them? How do

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Speaker 1: you get them to take that on? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know there's hiding food in the lasagna. You can grate

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Speaker 1: up the zucchini and the carrot and stick in the lasagna,

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Speaker 1: but they're not getting a lot of zucchini when they're

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Speaker 1: eating it graded up in the lasagna. So how do

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Speaker 1: we do this? I mean, one of my kids, when

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Speaker 1: we have wraps, she'll have a little bit of meat,

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Speaker 1: complains about it. She takes all the beans out of

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Speaker 1: it that we put in there, and then she'll have

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Speaker 1: cheese and pineapple on a white wrap. Okay, And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you've gotta have something green, and so she'll put a

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Speaker 1: spinach leaf on there. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It'll be

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Speaker 1: this the smallest little piece of green, which she's like,

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Speaker 1: I've got green. I'm like, du on, that is not

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Speaker 1: and what I'm hearing you say. If I had the

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Speaker 1: language for it, I would say that is not feeding

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Speaker 1: the good, the good pre biomedic, I've for gotten the

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Speaker 1: words good bugs, good bugs in your gut. That's right,

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Speaker 1: it's not doing that. So how do we do this?

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Speaker 1: How do we get them to put the good food

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Speaker 1: on the wrap. How do we get them to get

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Speaker 1: the fiber into their body so that they're eating that

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Speaker 1: food that makes their gut healthy.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I'd say we need to focus

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Speaker 3: on small changes done consistently, because over time it will

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Speaker 3: make a big difference. So I encourage parents to offer

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Speaker 3: six times a day, whatever they're eating, put a little

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Speaker 3: bit of color next to it. So next to breakfast,

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Speaker 3: put a couple of blueberries. Next to their morning tea,

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Speaker 3: put something that's plant or you know, food or edgeable related,

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Speaker 3: and not often it's in the lunch box. And often

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Speaker 3: at schools they do like a crunch and they put

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Speaker 3: something like that brain break fruit break in their lunch box.

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Speaker 3: Or if they're at home having a cheese toasty, put

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Speaker 3: a jerry tomato and a tidy bit of carrot next

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Speaker 3: to their lunch so they become used to seeing color.

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Speaker 3: Same with afternoon teat, same with dinner, same with supper.

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Speaker 3: Making it fun is a good one. Dressing vegetables so

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Speaker 3: they taste good. I don't mind the mayonnaise lemon and

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Speaker 3: lemon and olive oil is gray and brocoli. If you

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Speaker 3: have to put a bit of salt on it doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter because if it gets them enjoying food, then that's

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Speaker 3: that's a wind and then you can always pull back

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Speaker 3: on the salt later. So I think making food fun tasty,

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Speaker 3: offering it throughout the day is an important one.

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Speaker 1: You just reminded me. One thing that she will eat

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Speaker 1: is we get kale, and I can't remember what we

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Speaker 1: do with it. I think that we sort of shake

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Speaker 1: it up a little bit of oil or something, just

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Speaker 1: drizzle it with some oil. Then we stick in the

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Speaker 1: oven and we create kale chips. Yeah, loves that. Loves that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we've just got to do more kale chips and

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, So focus on the positives. I'm like, focus on

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Speaker 3: what they are eating and build on that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So even if it's fried in the oven with a

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Speaker 1: bit of oil or baked in the oven with a

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Speaker 1: bit of oil whatever and a bit of salt, you're

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Speaker 1: still saying that they get that fiber into them than

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Speaker 1: not even if it's got absolutely yeah interesting.

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Speaker 3: Okay, extraversion olive oil I think is liquid gold. Like

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Speaker 3: it's amazing. So use as much as that there's no

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Speaker 3: low fat here, like you're using good fats.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, got it. I love this all right. Something you

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Speaker 1: said earlier, Karina, is that the first three years is

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Speaker 1: where the foundations of good gut health are layed. Now,

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Speaker 1: for many of us, we've already got kids that are

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Speaker 1: well beyond those first three years, but there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of podcast listeners who are definitely in that phase

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Speaker 1: where they've got kids who are I mean, in the

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Speaker 1: first three years. There's a lot less fussiness, right, kids

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Speaker 1: kind of almost eat whatever you stick on the high

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Speaker 1: chair tray. What can parents do with their little kids?

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Speaker 1: We know that there's some things that you've got little

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Speaker 1: saying okay, sometimes you try to breastfeed, but you don't

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Speaker 1: produce milk, or there's breastfeeding challenges. Obviously, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: caesar or a natural birth. Sometimes there's limited control over

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Speaker 1: what's going on there. But once the child's in the

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Speaker 1: world and you've got some control over the diet, the

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Speaker 1: food's going in their mouth, what do you do there?

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Speaker 1: Is it again just about trying to stuff them full

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Speaker 1: of fruit and veggies? Do you throw olives on the

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Speaker 1: tray and hope that they stick one of those in

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Speaker 1: their mouth and like it? How do you make this work.

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Speaker 3: So I encourage parents to give little ones as much

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Speaker 3: variety as possible in a non pressurized way. So throw

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Speaker 3: lots of variety at them when they're young, and let

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Speaker 3: them explore, let them get their fingers in it, let

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Speaker 3: them smush it all over their face, and not by

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Speaker 3: the I'm talking about like a ten twelve month old.

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Speaker 3: Let them explore food with all of their senses, because

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Speaker 3: that's how they develop and build that familiarity and trust

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Speaker 3: in the food, and then they learn to like these

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Speaker 3: foods over time. You've got this early window of opportunity

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Speaker 3: to really expose them to the world in a non

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Speaker 3: pressurized way. Let them eat as much as they want,

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Speaker 3: and be okay if they don't want it, because kids

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Speaker 3: have an inate ability to self regulate their appetite and

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Speaker 3: eat to what they need. So it's about us providing

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Speaker 3: a really positive environment with lots of exposure to all

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Speaker 3: these lovely fruits and vegetables and you know, bowls of

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Speaker 3: porridge or wheat pis, but not pressuring them to eat it.

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Speaker 3: Just let them enjoy and learn about this food because

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Speaker 3: they will then come to like these foods if offered

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Speaker 3: in a non pressurized, fun way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned control. It's

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Speaker 1: such an important factor here. The more the more you

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Speaker 1: push force creates resistance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's something that we as parents find

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Speaker 3: really hard because we value nutrition, we value helth. A

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Speaker 3: lot of the parents that I work with inside nourishing Kids,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're worried about their child not getting enough

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Speaker 3: nutrition because they know we're always told that our kids

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Speaker 3: need good food. But it's like, what how do we

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Speaker 3: make that happen? And that's that's where I come in

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Speaker 3: to say, like, this is how we set up a

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Speaker 3: healthy feeding environment for a toddler, This is how we

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Speaker 3: set up a feeding environment for a fussy eat out,

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Speaker 3: because we just need to remember that kids will learn

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Speaker 3: to like these foods. We just need to set up

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Speaker 3: really non pressurized way because if we create anxiety at

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Speaker 3: the in the high chair, at the dinner table, the

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Speaker 3: walls go up, and then we've lost that ability to

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Speaker 3: for that meal time for them to explore food, and

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Speaker 3: we lose that connection time as a family too, because

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Speaker 3: connecting at dinner time is really valuable and it's something

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Speaker 3: that we really need to cherish and try and bring back.

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Speaker 3: Not enough families are connecting at the dinner table these days.

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Speaker 1: Karina Savage is a pediatric dietitian. She's been doing it

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Speaker 1: for a few a couple of decades. I nearly aged

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Speaker 1: you more than I should have a bit of it

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Speaker 1: self indulgent today trying to learn about this gut microbiome.

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Speaker 1: But I've learned a lot today. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: patient with me. Karina lives in Sydney with her husband

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Speaker 1: and two kids, and is the founder of Nourishing Kids,

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Speaker 1: where she helps parents create healthy eaters stress free. Karina

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Speaker 1: as a regular on National Warning TV on Sunrise and

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Speaker 1: seven and also has her own podcast. You can check

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Speaker 1: it out at the easy Feed. We will link to

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Speaker 1: the easy Feed. We'll also linked to Nourishing Kids and

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Speaker 1: Nourish with Karina dot com. Karina really appreciate generosity and

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Speaker 1: sharing your time and expertise. Again, Hopefully this has been

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Speaker 1: well and it's been helpful for me. Hopefully it's been

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Speaker 1: helpful for a bunch of parents who are listening. Pleasure.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Family podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. More info in the show notes. If you'd

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Speaker 1: like to figure out how you can get your kids,

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Speaker 1: improving their gut health with Karina and the work that

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Speaker 1: she does at Nourishing Kids. And more information about making

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Speaker 1: your family happier is available at happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot u or check out our social pages. Dr Justin

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Speaker 1: Colson's Happy Families on Facebook and Instagram.