1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: And Amanda gam Nation. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 2: Our next guest is a human lie detector. His name 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: is Steve van Aprin. He's a world renowned specialist in 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: human behavior, in deception, detection, and analyzing a person's body language, 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: which allows him to read people like a book that 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: he's often used to help in homicide cases. Let's assume 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: Jonesy hasn't murdered anybody, but Steve, hello and welcome. 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: Thank you Amanda. This is exactly why I have my friends. 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: Well, how socially does it go? Are you treated by 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: your friends like psychic? 11 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: Say? 12 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: You think you read too much into me, therefore we 13 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: can't socialize. 14 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Well, my golfing partners no better to lie to me 15 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: about the scores, that's for sure. But look, when I 16 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: was a detective for fourteen years, and back in those days, 17 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: what really amazed me is that some of the detectives 18 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: who were not very good at reading body language and 19 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: detecting deception. So I was always interested in psychological profiling. 20 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: So I went over to the FBI. But the more 21 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: time I spent with their behavioral analysis unit, the more 22 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: interested I become cognitive and behavioral anything. I wanted to 23 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: know why some people made really good liars and others 24 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: were absolutely terrible. 25 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: And what is the difference? Just some people are better 26 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 2: at it? 27 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, Look, the more complex the lie, it takes 28 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: a lot of cognitive processing. So if you're fabricating, creating 29 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: a false memory, memory, or embellishing, for every one lie 30 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: you tell, you have to invent two or three to 31 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: protect yourself from the first one. And I don't care 32 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: how well prepared you are, you can't possibly pre anticipate 33 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: every likely question that I could ask you, what do 34 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: you mean? 35 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: It was an example of that. 36 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: Well, let's say I'm interviewing you for like a homicide 37 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: and the pathologists established a time of death at seven 38 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: pm last night, and you were seen in the locality. 39 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: I'd ask you what you did from saying four to 40 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: ten and you might say went out. And these were 41 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: the questions questions of the tools of my trade. But 42 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: more importantly, it's not necessarily the questions, it's how you 43 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: react to the questions. So typically give you a real 44 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: quick example I was doing. I was training profilos in 45 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: Dubai for Emirates, and these guys are really switched on 46 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: and these weapons they do. It's amazing what you can 47 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: get using weapons. But anyway, one of the they wanted 48 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: me to put some questions together to work out withether 49 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: not people may have been potential terrorists. So one of 50 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: the questions I put together for them is have you 51 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: do you have any terrorist associations? And they looked at 52 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: me and they said, why on earth would a terrorist 53 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: admit to that. I said, it's got nothing to do 54 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: with the question, but everything to do with their reaction. 55 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: Truthful people take ownership, where deceptive people create distance, disassociation 56 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: and separation and language. So many cases, I've worked on 57 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: eighty nine homicide cases, and sometimes what I look for 58 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: is whether or not the person is taking ownership or 59 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: creating distance. You know, Bill Clinton, I did not have 60 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: sexual relations with that woman. Often some police departments will 61 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: get me to look at a plea, you know, media 62 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: plea for the return of their loved one. And there's 63 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: a case here, kayjh Abrams, I don't know if you remember 64 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: that one. And the mother went there with her, in 65 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: fact her boyfriend, And as soon as I saw it, 66 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: I knew that they were involved because he turned around 67 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: and said she was such a wonderful child when she 68 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: when he said, that's past tense. Trust me, if you've 69 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: ever spoken to a parent who's had their child abducted, 70 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: they will never ever talk in past tense. Why because 71 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: their expectation is their child will be returned to life 72 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: safe and well. So it's almost like had given up. 73 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: So getting back to the homicides, I'd ask you, you know, 74 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: where did you go? I went out? Where did you 75 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: go restaurant? What was the name of the restaurant? Have 76 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: you been there before? What time did you leave, What 77 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: was your route you took to get there, what time 78 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: did you arrive? What was on the menu? Have you 79 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: been there before? That's a very interesting question because if 80 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: they have and they were involved in the murder of 81 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: another place, they can draw from memory that they've been 82 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: there before. So then we have to take them beyond that. 83 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: So you may be able to think of a lie, 84 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: but do you sound believable and credible? And sooner or 85 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: later your story will fall apart at some stone. 86 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: I'm exau just listening to that. I confessed to something 87 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: I haven't done. 88 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: These are the questions that Amanda asked about me on 89 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: a month What did you do? What did you get 90 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: up to? It said, what are your cop? How many 91 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: questions are you going to ask? 92 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 2: Well, we have some questions here, Brendan, that our audience 93 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: has asked that I ask you, and Steve will observe 94 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: you and let us know whether he thinks you're telling 95 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: the truth or not. 96 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Okay, well I'll put my truthful face on. Will take 97 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: a break or come? You should be very worried. Should so? 98 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: I don't know what the questions are. 99 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: Do you know what mushroom looks like?