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Speaker 1: And Amanda jam Nation. So I do a podcast with

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Speaker 1: my friend Anita McGregor. It's called Double a Chattery. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to do a podcast with Anita

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Speaker 1: is obviously there's a million podcasts, but Anita's perspective on

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Speaker 1: the world is very interesting. She is a forensic psychologist,

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Speaker 1: and what that means is she works as a psychologist

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Speaker 1: within the legal system, the policing system, so she sees clients,

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Speaker 1: as she calls them. She sees clients who are sex offenders,

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Speaker 1: who are violent offenders from all spectrums of life, who

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Speaker 1: have been before the courts, before the police, and she

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Speaker 1: has huge sympathy for these people. So I was intrigued

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Speaker 1: what her story.

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Speaker 2: Which is a hard thing to say when you say

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Speaker 2: you have huge sympathy for violent offenders.

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Speaker 1: Well, I said to her, so.

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Speaker 2: Would you say empathy not sympathy so much a bit

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Speaker 2: of both.

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Speaker 1: I think because I've said to her in the past

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Speaker 1: or she has said, it's awful for someone to be

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Speaker 1: defined by the worst thing they've ever done. I said,

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Speaker 1: what if they skin a woman alive? And she said, well,

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Speaker 1: that's for the courts to determine, and of course they

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Speaker 1: should be punished she said, my job is to find

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Speaker 1: out what went on, why they did it, and make

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Speaker 1: sure it doesn't happen again. And it's a big frustration

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Speaker 1: for her that her job is funded by the courts,

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Speaker 1: I guess by the government. So if she sees someone

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Speaker 1: while they're in front of the courts for twenty sessions

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Speaker 1: and she's only halfway through doing this, changing therapy, changing

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Speaker 1: their sexual triggers, changing this, and that she sees the

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Speaker 1: path and then the funding drops off. They're not going

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Speaker 1: to come of their own volition and pay to have

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Speaker 1: psychology sessions. So she sees every day where the system

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Speaker 1: is falling down. So we all saw across the weekend

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Speaker 1: giant rallies all around Australia about this scourge of violence

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Speaker 1: against women. We've been talking about it the last few weeks.

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Speaker 1: Thirty two women, if you include the women that were

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Speaker 1: killed in Bondi Junction, have been killed in the first

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fourteen days of this year on average.

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Speaker 1: That's a woman being killed well pretty much more than

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Speaker 1: every four days this time last year that number was

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Speaker 1: way less. So what is it? What are we missing?

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Speaker 1: And Anita has some very interesting thoughts and we spoke

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Speaker 1: about this on our podcast. Here's just some of what

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Speaker 1: she had to say.

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Speaker 3: I'm probably going to see some things that are offensive

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Speaker 3: to some people here in Australia as we talk today.

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Speaker 3: Should we go and arm the security guards? I mean,

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Speaker 3: how ridiculous. Why don't we go and actually spend a

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Speaker 3: little money on training security guards about how to deal

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Speaker 3: with somebody who is in crase, with somebody who is

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Speaker 3: mentally ill. That would be a much better use of

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Speaker 3: our funding. I think from my thirty plus years of

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Speaker 3: experience working in this area, I don't think New South

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Speaker 3: Wales in particular is doing a very good job.

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Speaker 1: What are we doing wrong?

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Speaker 3: I think it's the lack of training right from police

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Speaker 3: and intervention to the treatment of perpetrators. Part of it

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Speaker 3: is that there are really well researched risk factors that

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Speaker 3: are associated with domestic violence, and I don't think that

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Speaker 3: the responders, first responders or treatment providers are being made

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Speaker 3: well aware of what that looks like.

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Speaker 1: God still, so this, you know, what are we doing?

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Speaker 1: We're just funding refuges or whatever. We were putting money

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Speaker 1: into the scenario, but we're not stopping it in the

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Speaker 1: right place.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's this this story that you know talks about

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Speaker 3: I guess an allegory of a you know, going and

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Speaker 3: picking up bodies down the stream, and you keep picking

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Speaker 3: up the bodies down the stream, which is what we're

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Speaker 3: doing here. We tend to just be picking up bodies

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Speaker 3: every second day instead of at some point going and

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Speaker 3: looking up stream and saying, what is happening? How can

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Speaker 3: we actually look at this situation? And I think that

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Speaker 3: there are some really concrete things that we actually can do.

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Speaker 1: But we're not.

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Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot of really well meaning people,

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Speaker 3: and I think that there are some people, you know,

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Speaker 3: some things that are happening that are good. But I

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Speaker 3: think for the most part, we are not looking upstream

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Speaker 3: enough and we are not actually doing the things that

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Speaker 3: we need to do. It's just, frankly, it's quite unpopular

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Speaker 3: to kind of say, you know, if we have a

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Speaker 3: million dollars to spend, are we going to spend the

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Speaker 3: money on victims or are we going to spend the

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Speaker 3: money on perpetrators? And there's a lot of pushback about

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Speaker 3: treating the perpetrators and so well, I absolutely think that

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Speaker 3: there needs to be treatment and support and resources offered

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Speaker 3: for victims of domestic violence. If we don't treat the perpetrators.

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Speaker 3: All we're doing is creating more victims down the road.

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Speaker 2: And it's like before it happens, there was a young

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Speaker 2: lady in one of the the rallies and she was

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Speaker 2: holding up aside and that just said protect our girls.

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Speaker 2: But she crossed that out and said, teach your boys.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I have, this revelation. In a relationship,

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Speaker 2: it's not ownership. When you're in a relationship with someone,

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Speaker 2: you don't own that person. You love that person, but

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Speaker 2: if that person cheats on you or anything like that,

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Speaker 2: you have no right to go and kill that person

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Speaker 2: and set your kids on fire. If your wife cheats

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Speaker 2: on you, then that your relationship is breaking down, and

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Speaker 2: that is sad, but that's where it stops. And there's

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Speaker 2: nothing you can. You go through the courts, and I

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Speaker 2: know that the family court is dreadful, but it never

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Speaker 2: gets to that point where you would kill that woman

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Speaker 2: and your children. But for some reason, the crime of

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Speaker 2: passion thing comes out there. And if one says, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's just a crime of passion, no it's not. It's

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Speaker 2: just you just have to deal with it. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know, there's got to be a way other than

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Speaker 2: dealing with it with violence.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also teaching young men to be resilient. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I say this to my sons. You're gonna get your

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Speaker 1: heart's broken. You're gonna have to deal with it. And also,

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Speaker 1: you can't just say someone lost control. They don't lose

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Speaker 1: control at their boss. They don't lose control. They lose

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Speaker 1: control at home with their partners. And also there are

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Speaker 1: terrible statistics about children growing up in homes where this

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Speaker 1: is happening. You are seven times more likely to be

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Speaker 1: a perpetrator yourself. There are so many markers here that

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Speaker 1: we know that we can stop sooner. But you're right, Brendan,

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Speaker 1: we do have to say to our young men, deal

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Speaker 1: with your own emotions in a safe way. And that

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Speaker 1: does mean teaching perpetrators. Talking to perpetrators as a need

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Speaker 1: to said. It's unpopular. You don't want your tax dollar

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Speaker 1: just to go to the men here. But without it,

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Speaker 1: we're just pulling out bodies downstream.

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Speaker 2: Get it before it goes, get it upstream. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: double a chattery. Check it out where you get all

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Speaker 2: your podcasts. iHeartRadio is always a good place