1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: We have just read out a story for you that's 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: been reported on the ABC online. Essentially Tongue and Geer 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: Council Aboriginal Corporation being criticized for a range of alleged 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: governance issues. Its chief executive, Walter Shaw, has remained silent 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: and has declined to meet with local government and other stakeholders. 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: Is what is being reported now. As we know, they 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: are one of Australia's largest Aboriginal controlled organizations and a 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: funded to provide housing, safety and youth services for Aboriginal 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: people in Alice Springs. In the past financial gear, they've 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: collected more than thirty million dollars in government grants and contracts, 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: including for servicing sixteen town camps dotted across Alice Springs's fringes, 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: as well as a women's safety group and family violence 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: prevention programs. Now, the organization, which employs about three hundred people, 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: it's reported by the ABC, hasn't released an annual report 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: since twenty eighteen. I find that quite unbelievable given the 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: fact that they receive such a hefty amount of funding. 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: Now joining us on the line to talk a little 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: bit more about this is the Yippri and your school principal, 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Gavin Morris, Good morning to you, gave. 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, Good morning listener. 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: Great to have you on the show now. Gavin, I 22 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: know you have been quoted in this article and essentially 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: said that you've got a number of kids that go 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: to your school who actually they live in some of 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: these town camps. Is that right? 26 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: Well, Katie, almost all of them do. And the standard 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: of the town camps is just beyond description, abject poverty, 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: with housing that is just not up to anyone's standards. 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: That's absolutely deplorable living standards, over creating the rubbish, the 30 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: lack of services and maintenance, than we're expecting our Aboriginal 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: kids to call out of that and to come to 32 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: school and overcome barriers which are just outrageous for twenty 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: twenty four. 34 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: The thing I can't sort of wrap my head around 35 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: is from what I'm reading, Tongue in Geer Council receive 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: thirty million dollars in annual funding. Now, I would assume 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: that part of that thirty million dollars in annual funding 38 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: is meant to be for things like for rubbish, for maintenance, 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: to bring those standard of living up. 40 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: Exactly and where is the money going, what work is 41 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: being done? And why are we allowing our most vulnerable 42 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: children and families not just in Central Australia but right 43 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: around the country. These are the most vulnerable people in Australia. 44 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: Why are we allowing them to be neglected? Where we 45 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: walk past the standards, we know what's happening, but we 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: aren't keen to have the tough conversation around, right, who's 47 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: meant to be doing the work, where's the money going? 48 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: And if the outcomes aren't reaching the families in a 49 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: way which supports them and empowers them with three self 50 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: determination and all the rest of it, well, then we 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: need to we need an investigation into that. And that's 52 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: attaining to Europe and that goes with all the service 53 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: providers in our springs. These are very vulnerable people who 54 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: need the best work and people need to be had 55 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 2: to account. 56 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean we've heard in the past the likes of 57 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: Jacinta Number Gimper Price. I've also heard Marian scrimjaw so 58 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: that there needs to be audits. A royal commission is 59 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: what some I think yourself has called for. I mean 60 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: this is sort of an example. 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: Of why right our Royal Commission needs to be established 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: into the funding the service of all service providers and 63 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: provision in Central Australia with the focus in our springs. 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: Once that audit has occurred, then we can go to 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: supporting those organizations to ensure that they are getting the 66 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: best support to give our families the infrastructure that they 67 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: need to get themselves out of their generational cycle of 68 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: poverty and back into the workforce, and back into education 69 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: and back into all the cultural stuff which is absolutely 70 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: the strength and so of our Aboriginal communities in Central Australia. 71 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: But until that accountability is brought to the table, the 72 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: other stuff can't happen, and we can't just walk past 73 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: to the pretend it's not happening. 74 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: Govin Look, I don't want to get I don't want 75 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: to put any of you students, or any of your 76 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: staff for anybody or any of their families in a 77 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: difficult situation. But from your perspective and sort of what 78 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: they're telling you, and I don't expect you to speak 79 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: out of line here, but I mean, like, are they 80 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: happy with the standard of the way in which things 81 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: are being managed in those town camps? 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: Oh, they're in crisis and there in trauma and they're 83 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: on their needs and they're pleading for help, and they 84 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: come to me all the time going goaven, I can't 85 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: keep living like this, This is too much for me. 86 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: I'm overwhelmed by the level of poverty and rubbish and 87 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: discussing living conditions which are forced to live in whilst 88 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: there's another non indigenous toe horde of our springs who 89 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: enjoy a far different life. It impacts on every part 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: of their being in terms of cation, employment and the life, 91 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 2: but also the number of our students and young children 92 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: who have preventable diseases now, who have lifetime trajectories around 93 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: camabidity and having to deal with levels of mismanagement and 94 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: neglect which it just would not be accepted in any 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 2: other part of Australia. They come to me all the 96 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: time saying that, and I need to be reminded regularly 97 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: that you're bring your school and taking into your council 98 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: were established by exactly the same people, and the vision 99 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: of those old people in the nineteen seventies was you're 100 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: putting your school was set up for the town campers 101 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: to look after the education. Taking into your council was 102 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: set up for the town campers to look after social 103 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 2: services and then we've got Congress to look after health. 104 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: What we've got at the minute is she's got a 105 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 2: whole range of organizations in Central Australian ail springs who 106 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: are as summing out of their lanes. But more important, 107 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: what's happened is we've walked past the conversation for too 108 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: long around where is the money going? Where is the 109 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: support for the families? And who's been had to account 110 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: when that stuff's not happening. 111 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: Kevin, you know, given the fact that you guys like 112 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: these different organizations have sort of got that shared history 113 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: and then when you look at the services and the 114 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: service you know, the services that you're all sort of 115 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: meant to be delivering in terms of then you know 116 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: that reporting those KPIs that accountability from your perspective, Look, 117 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: is it there for everybody or are there only some 118 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: that are sort of being forced to, you know, to 119 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: to reach those those standards. 120 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: Uh, there's certainly a mismatch going on here. And when 121 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: I talk about there needs to be a hard conversation 122 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: and we need it now, and that's and that's around. 123 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: It's you know, it's not easy to criticize organizations working 124 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 2: a really complex environment, is particularly in Central Australia with 125 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: the most vulnerable of families in the nation. But the 126 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 2: reality is that we need to be how to account 127 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: and there needs to be a level of governance and 128 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: structure around how we're spending money, what are we doing 129 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: at the resources, what are our KPIs, are we meeting them, 130 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: why are we meeting them? And if there's no good 131 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: reason for that, well that those people need to be 132 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: moved on and then bring new people in. Because what 133 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: we're seeing on the streets of our springs is a 134 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: manifestation of the outcomes when we get this wrong, when 135 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: we get the support in ways that the families need. 136 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: Now we've got our whole generation of parents who are 137 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: doing it. You know, they love their kids, They want 138 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: to see their kids succeed, They want to kids see 139 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: their kids at school, of course they do, but they're 140 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: on their knees. They've been living in a distress state, 141 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: in inappropriate fourth world living conditions now for so long 142 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: that the idea that anything else is that level of 143 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: helplessness has now reached a point where at crisis levels 144 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: and organizations who failed to leave up today's government structures 145 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: need to be how to account. The only way we 146 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: know what that looks like is through a Royal commission. 147 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: Now I know that according to this report on the ABC, 148 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: they have Tananji have kept up to date with their reporting, 149 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: is what I read. But there hasn't been an annual 150 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: report since twenty eighteen. 151 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't know what tests and what well 152 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: that that passes any sort of you know, reality sort 153 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: of Beneco test. Certainly that doesn't pass the my thro 154 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 2: at you for in your school. I mean, you know, 155 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: all their organizations right around the country are expected to 156 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: report and be transparent around the money they get and 157 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: what they do with it. And why are we allowing 158 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: some organizations because of who they are or what they 159 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: are or who they represent, to have different standards to 160 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: others And the cost of that for us, it's not 161 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: just financial, it's social, it's the crime, it's the generational 162 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: stuff which is going to come down because we haven't 163 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: got this period of our springs education and developing our 164 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: next future leaders and all the rest of that. So 165 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: the full land is what we're seeing today. We saw 166 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: it a couple of weeks ago with the curfew, but 167 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: if we don't turn this ship around really soon, the 168 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 2: full land's going to continue for months and years ahead. 169 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to be dramatic around it, but 170 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: we've got an Aboriginal community living in the town camps 171 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: who are living in absolutely diabolical living conditions. I took 172 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: the Children's Commissioner off for the United Kingdom. She came 173 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: to visit us at the Perigne last week and I 174 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: took it with family, took into a couple oft of 175 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: town camps and just absolutely in shock around the standards. 176 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: You know, they were talking about this is worse than Africa. 177 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: It's worse than anything that they've seen in their life. 178 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: And they knew there was a level of disadvantage in 179 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: Central Australia, but nothing but what they saw. And they'll 180 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: take that back to England and the Children's Commissioners. You know, 181 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: you're going back and the conversation going on there now. 182 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: But you know, these families need help and the help 183 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 2: needs to come now around in ordered around the organization 184 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: to help them govern. 185 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: Is it something that you've spoken to the Northern Territory 186 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: Children's Commissioner about? 187 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I have, I've spoken. I have spoken to 188 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: the Children Commissioner of the Northern Territory. I was spoken 189 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: to the Chief Minister around this, you know, as later 190 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 2: as meeting around with the curfew around you know, Gaven, 191 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: what would what do you think should happen? And you know, 192 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: it's very clear that the first step needs to be 193 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 2: where's the support? What are the organizations doing here? I 194 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: have to give the support, where's the money going? And 195 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: order a raw commission. That needs to be the first step. 196 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: Hard do you have that, ben Catie? Then you can 197 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: start gettingto the important bits, which is actually collaborating in ways, 198 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 2: which with families and with the organizations that are charged 199 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: with the responsibility to give this support, to ensure that 200 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: the families aren't neglected, they aren't left behind, the living 201 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: conditions in the town can improved to us a level 202 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: which we would all accept, YEA, rather than driving past 203 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: them and pretending they're not there because we're worried about 204 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: the sanctity of Aboriginal culture and offending people. You know, 205 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: if you're just driving past these places and pretending that 206 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: they're problems in them don't exist, I think you're part 207 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: of the problem. 208 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: Well, Gavin Morris, I always appreciate your time. Thanks so 209 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: much for having a chat with us this morning. 210 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: Pleasure Katie. Enjoy the rest of your day. 211 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: Yeah you too, Thank you.