1 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: As a psychologist, I tend to lean more on science 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: and statistics when I'm trying to figure out how best 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: to live. But of course sometimes the numbers and the 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: facts don't give us the whole human picture. And occasionally 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: be old a It's just true. After all, sometimes mother 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: really does know best. That being said, it does help 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: when your mother is also a psychologist. My mum, better 8 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: known as Doris Brett, is a clinical psychologist and an 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: award winning writer, and she's recently made her deboo into 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: children's literature with her new book, Philamella and the Impossible Forest, 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: a book for readers age nine and up, which has 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: launched to rave reviews. In her mid forties, my mom 13 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, a moment for altered the 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: way she lives her life, and in this chat, my 15 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: mom shares the most effective advice that she gives to 16 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: her own therapy clients, including how to deal with uncertainty 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: and challenging times. I'm doctor Amantha Imber, an organizational psychologist 18 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: and the host of How I Work, and I'm trying 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: something a little different for the next few weeks. This 20 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: is How I Live, a series that gives you an 21 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: inside look but some super accomplished people's top strategies for 22 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: living a happy, productive, and impactful life. So what's a 23 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: piece of advice that you've received and applied that has 24 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: immeasurably improved your life. 25 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: The thing that comes to mind is this. Quite a 26 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: few years ago, a friend and I were just discussing 27 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: mutual friends that we were having issues with, and she 28 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: said something like what she likes doing is taking the 29 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: good parts of something and not worrying about the bad parts. 30 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: And that's something that's really stayed with me. It's the 31 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: equivalent of don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: And what I think it does is just say, know 33 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: what to expect from a person or a relationship, and 34 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: don't expect more. That way, you're free to just enjoy 35 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: what is there, let go of what isn't. Obviously, if 36 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: it's a really intimate relationship or a very important relationship, 37 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: then if it's not satisfactory in a lot of areas, 38 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: then you need to work with that and try to 39 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: see what's going on. But in general, there are so 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: many people and situations where we get irritated by things 41 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: that we don't like and throw the whole thing out 42 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 2: so I think it's a very freeing kind of concept. 43 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: You can appreciate what is there without having to resent 44 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: that there isn't more. 45 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: And can you give me an example of where you've 46 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: applied that advice. 47 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: I apply it, I think without thinking because it's been 48 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: so long now, And what I realized was that I'd 49 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: actually applied it in my novel for Children again without 50 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: thinking about it, because that's something that Philimmella, who's the heroine, learns. 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: She is very preoccupied with resenting the changes in her life. 52 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: She's angry about what isn't there, and she has basically 53 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 2: thrown the whole baby out with all of the bathwater. 54 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: And what she learns is to recognize that she is 55 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: where she is. In fact, there's a signpost that plays 56 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: a very important part that says you are here, and 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: that she comes to appreciate aspects of being here without 58 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: being perpetually resentful that she's not somewhere in the past. 59 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: So I'd love to know an example of how you've 60 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: applied this in your own life. 61 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: I think, for the most part these days, I tend 62 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: to apply it without thinking about it very much. But 63 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: I can certainly think of a specific example. I have 64 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 2: a friend who is a fairly good friend, not a 65 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: very close friend. And there are some things about that 66 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 2: relationship that I enjoy and others that I don't enjoy, 67 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: and other aspects of that relationship where I know I 68 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: couldn't rely on her in a crisis, which you know 69 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: is one of my criteria for a close friendship, and 70 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 2: I just enjoy what there is to enjoy. I had 71 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: another friend where what I loved about her was her 72 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: wit and her sense of humor, and we always laughed 73 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: together and had great time. But I knew perfectly well 74 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: that she was really quite selfish and that she would 75 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: rather take than give. But as long as I knew that, 76 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: and they were the parameters that I operated within, well 77 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: that was fine. And I've used the example of friendship, 78 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 2: but there are lots of other situations where it's really 79 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: helpful to appreciate what good things are there, but also 80 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,799 Speaker 2: to recognize what isn't there, and not to waste energy 81 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: expecting it. 82 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: So I want to move now onto a piece of 83 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: advice that you find yourself giving to people most frequently. 84 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: Right, Well, look, I'm a clinical psychologist, so I do 85 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: give advice, And can. 86 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: I just ask for a moment, because I know that 87 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: some psychologists deliberately don't give advice whereas others do. Can 88 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: you just explain for a moment, like why why? That 89 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: does differ between therapists and psychologists and counselors and so forth. 90 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: Sure. Well, first of all, if you're a classic psychoanalyst, 91 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 2: the idea is really to be a blank screen. You 92 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 2: can ask questions, but in general you don't give advice. 93 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: And there are also some forms of counseling where the 94 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: idea is to simply support someone and enable them to 95 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 2: talk and explore things without particularly giving advice. And then 96 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: there are other therapies like cognitive behavior therapy that are 97 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: highly prescriptive. I certainly as a therapist, I don't sit 98 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: there and tell people what to do all the time. 99 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: But I am comfortable when I feel something very clearly 100 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 2: in sharing what I feel, it doesn't mean they have 101 00:06:54,120 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: to do it. When I started off training, I think 102 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 2: we're all I was trained in a number of modalities, 103 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: and I found I was absolutely not comfortable with just 104 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: sitting there and echoing people and you know, being some 105 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: kind of silent supporter. That just wasn't me. I want 106 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: to explore, I want to ask questions. And part of 107 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: therapy just has to be feeling genuine and being genuine 108 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: as therapist. And so that's me. 109 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: And so what is that a piece of advice that 110 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: you find yourself giving most frequently? 111 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: So one piece of advice that I quite often find 112 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: myself giving. And I have to say people have given 113 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: me feedback that they appreciate it, they use it, it's useful. 114 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: It's a concept from social psychology, the idea of upward 115 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: and downward comparison, where herd animals our natural instinct is 116 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: to gather together as a group. Whenever you get groups, 117 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: you always get comparisons. So and So's got this much food. 118 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 2: I've got that much food, and so on and so forth. 119 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: So and so has more power than me. And basically 120 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: how you experience yourself depends on whether you're using an 121 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: upward comparison. A has more food than me, A has 122 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: more money than me. And if you use upward comparisons, 123 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: that makes you feel poor and hard done by. If 124 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: you use downward comparisons, I have more food than B 125 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: who actually has to really scrabble for food. That makes 126 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: you feel wealthy in comparison. And this is something that 127 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: I do myself for myself all of the time. Whenever 128 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: you're feeling hard done by, you have a choice. Do 129 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: you want to see yourself through the eyes of upward 130 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 2: comparison or do you want to see yourself through the 131 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: eyes of downward comparison. One will make you feel much better, 132 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: one will make you feel much worse. 133 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: It's funny because my honors thesis was about downward comparison 134 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: in relation to optimism bias and how likely we think 135 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: we are to get certain ailments, like, for example, you 136 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: know when we see I don't know if you remember 137 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: the old THAC commercials that we used to have here 138 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: in Victoria that featured a lot of blood and guts 139 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: and gore, and psychologists found that those ads were not 140 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: actually that effective at changing behavior because they would force us, 141 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: almost through denial, to go into a downward comparison. Will 142 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: they're like, I'm you know, I'm a much safer driver 143 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: than that person, And so it can lead to unhelpful 144 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: behaviors sometimes as well as helpful. So how do you 145 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: know when the downward comparison is actually helping us versus 146 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: hindering us. 147 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: Look, I think downward comparisons in every day life really 148 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: pretty easy. I am really tired from my job. You 149 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: can go up to someone who has a really cushy job, 150 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: or you can go down to someone who's desperately trying 151 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 2: to find work. One makes you feel lucky to have 152 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 2: a job. And if you feel lucky to have a job, 153 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: you're much more likely to think about it positively and say, well, Okay, 154 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: what can I get out of it? How can I 155 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: change it? If you feel very negatively about the job, 156 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: because it's a much quote worse job than your upward comparison, 157 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 2: you just kind of tend to feel angry and bitter. 158 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: I remember a few months ago I interviewed Nick mackenzie, 159 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: who's a quite well known investigative journalist, and he was 160 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: telling me how he receives death threats very very regularly. 161 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: And I think about that now whenever I'm feeling stressed 162 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: at work, that at least I'm not receiving death threats, 163 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: So I can certainly relate to that. Now. On the 164 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: topic of stress, I am curious, what's been the greatest 165 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: challenge in your life and what has it taught you. 166 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: Well, I've had quite a few challenges in my life 167 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 2: which I think I can say, for every one of them, 168 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: they've certainly given me a lot more wisdom. You know, 169 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: I think that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger 170 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 2: is not necessarily true, because it can certainly make you weaker. 171 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: But you know, I think these days in psychology there's 172 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: new emphasis which is on the idea of actually growing 173 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: through adversity instead of being traumatized because of adversity, And 174 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: obviously you can have both simultaneously. Thinking of a particular thing, 175 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: it's my experience of being diagnosed with ovarian cancer, in 176 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: particular the recurrence of ovarian cancer that I had that 177 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: was unexpected but nevertheless happened, And so I was forty six. 178 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,359 Speaker 2: I had gone from my initial diagnosis two years previously 179 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: and being told that I was curable to a recurrence 180 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: two years later at forty six and being told that 181 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: I was not curable and that I only had a 182 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: twenty four percent chance of being alive in five years. 183 00:12:53,960 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: And that was obviously something difficult to get your head around. 184 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: And I decided to get my head around it by 185 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: figuring that I was going to focus on the twenty 186 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: four percent, And in fact, I had quite a strong 187 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: word to my oncologist. It was busy focusing on the 188 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: seventy six percent, and I got through my treatment, that 189 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: was all good. And then what happens when you get 190 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: through treatment. You know, in the process of treatment, you're 191 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: really you're fighting a battle essentially, you know, and each 192 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: day you get through, each treatment you get through, and 193 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: it gets closer to the end, and there's this sort 194 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 2: of light at the end of the tunnel, which is 195 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: the end of treatment. And what happens is you get 196 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: to the end of treatment and then suddenly, for the 197 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: first time often you have time to think about what 198 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: this all means. And it can be summed up in 199 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: one word, which is uncertainty, because you now have time 200 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 2: in a sense to digest the fact that you don't 201 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: know what's going to happen next. Are you going to live, 202 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: are you going to die? And what the challenge is 203 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: is to learn to live with that uncertainty rather than 204 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: to live in the uncertainty. And you know, it's I 205 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: think it's a challenge for almost everyone who goes through 206 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: the kind of cancer treatment that doesn't end up with 207 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: the oncologists saying you're cured. For me, what happened was 208 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: I just focused as much as I could on living 209 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: in the present being me. I also did research, and 210 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: of course every time I did research and read terrible figures, 211 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: I would feel anxious and then I would get over it. 212 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: And then sometime a few months after I'd finished treatment, 213 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: I was asked to give a keynote workshop in two 214 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: years time, and I agreed, and then I put down 215 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: the phone and I suddenly thought will I be there 216 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: in two years? And then, without any sort of having 217 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: to force anything, I just thought, well, if I'm not, 218 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: they'll get someone else. And at that point I realized 219 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: I was now living with the uncertainty instead of living 220 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: in the uncertainty, because that's all you can do if 221 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: you want to live, I mean live. 222 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: Well, we will be back with my mum soon talking 223 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: about how practically speaking, you live with uncertainty instead of 224 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: living in uncertainty. If you're looking for more tips to 225 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: improve the way you live, I write a short fortnightly 226 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that 227 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: help make my life better in some way. You can 228 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: sign up for that at how I Work dot Coat. 229 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot Coat. That's interesting that idea 230 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: between living with uncertainty versus living in uncertainties, So how like, 231 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: how do you do that? Like practically speaking. 232 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: Look, I think we all, we all are actually living 233 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: with enormous uncertainty. You know. We live with the belief 234 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: that things are predictable, that the people we love are 235 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: going to be there in six weeks time, a year's time, 236 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: all those sorts of things. The first time that I 237 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: really grappled with that was when I started working in 238 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: the excuse me, in the oncology department of a major 239 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: teaching hospital. I was asked to be a liaison consultant 240 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: and I picked on collogies the department I wanted to 241 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: work with, and I hadn't seen on cology patients before. 242 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: So I walked into the oncology unit and all around 243 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: me there were people who were my age, and I'd 244 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: always associated cancer with older people, and it was really confronting. 245 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 2: And I think that's what happens to all of us. 246 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: We have what I like to call a kind of 247 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: a curtain of healthy denial that protects us from constantly 248 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 2: confronting the reality that our lives can be flipped around anytime, 249 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 2: out of the blue, and in the space of a second, 250 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 2: it can happen to us an you know, anything can 251 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: happen at any time. That's the reality. Now, if we 252 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: were to be aware of that all the time, we 253 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: would be paralyzed with anxiety. And so we have this 254 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: healthy denial, which is healthy that allows us to function 255 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: in the belief or fantasy if you like, that we're 256 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 2: safe and that our lives are predictable. And every time 257 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: I went into the oncology department for I guess about 258 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: a month, I think I would have this experience of 259 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: the curtain of denial being ripped apart, and then it 260 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: would mend itself, and then get ripped apart, and then 261 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: finally it just mended itself. I just had accepted that, yes, 262 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: people of any age could get cancer. The reality is 263 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: that we give ourselves that cushion of healthy denial. It 264 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 2: enables us to function without too much anxiety. What happens 265 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: is anytime some unexpected tragedy or something comes out of 266 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 2: thin air, we are suddenly faced with the realization that 267 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 2: anything can happen at any time, and it's frightening, it's terrifying. 268 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 2: And what then happens is the curtain gets mended and 269 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: we're able to move on with that healthy denial. 270 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: If someone is finding themselves kind of stressed or catastrifying, 271 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: living in uncertainty for whatever reason, how can they get 272 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: themselves out of that place? 273 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: That is an answer that requires much more time than 274 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: we have look For some people, relatively simple changes in 275 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: their life will help exercise, walking, more yoga, meditation, those 276 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: sorts of anxiety reducing tools. And for others, they really 277 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: need more psychotherapy, you know, really exploring what's going on, 278 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: because very often that anxiety may have been triggered by 279 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: what happened, but may also be related to something years back, 280 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 2: for example. So it's a question that will differ through 281 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: every person. I of course also work with hypnosis and 282 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: that is wonderful for both anxiety and for working with 283 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: issues and discovering things. 284 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: You mentioned something else that you learned after your cancer 285 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: diagnosis and recurrence is about living in the present and 286 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: being in the here and now. And I feel like 287 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: so much is sad and written about this, But in 288 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: your own life, how did you how did you do that? 289 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 2: Well? I can tell you that my first experience with 290 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 2: over in cancer was when I was forty four, and 291 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: there were ten days in which my oncologist was positive 292 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: that it was late stage, a very in cancer for 293 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: which the prospects aren't great. And so there were ten 294 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 2: days when at that time the prognosis would have been 295 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 2: about two years. These days there were better treatments and 296 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: different outcomes, but it's still an incredibly serious cancer. So 297 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: I had ten days when I was really thinking, I've 298 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 2: probably got two years to live. And then I had 299 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: my surgery. It turned out to be early stage cancer, 300 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 2: and I was so liberated, and I remember, for I 301 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: guess about seven months, seven or eight months, every day 302 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 2: was joyous, and I kind of thought, you know, wow, 303 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 2: this is amazing. And then very gradually I just started 304 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: to get back to the more ordinary way of living, 305 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 2: where some days are gorgeous and some days are not, 306 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 2: because in life's like that, our days have natural light 307 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: and shade. And then of course I had the recurrence 308 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 2: of ovarying cancer, so that was a whole different ballgame. 309 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 2: But what lasted was the sense that I was given 310 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: so many extra years that I otherwise wouldn't have, And so, 311 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 2: for instance, the fatigue that I now have as a 312 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: lasting result of chemo, or the various aches and pains 313 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: that I'd otherwise be grumbling about, seem like a very 314 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: small price to pay. They're a heck of a lot 315 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: better than being dead downward comparison at work. 316 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: What surprises you most in your life? 317 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: I think for me at the moment, at any rate, 318 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: the biggest surprise in general is it's a really dismaying one. 319 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: It's the discovery that the ability to discuss and debate 320 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: and to listen to other people's experiences is just diminishing 321 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: at a rapid rate, and I just find that rather horrifying. 322 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 2: I think everything is getting so polarized, and that leads 323 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: you nowhere good as a therapist. One of the first 324 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 2: things that I learned was very often someone will come 325 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: into your office a client, and they will start by 326 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: detailing viewpoint or an experience that they feel is terrible, 327 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: and that from your viewpoint may not be terrible at all. 328 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: It's very tempting to say, well, I don't think that's 329 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: that bad. But what I learned very early on is 330 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: a basic principle that I think you can apply in 331 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: and out of therapy. And the principle can be summed 332 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 2: up with meet the person where they're at, which is 333 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: if someone says I believe in such and such and 334 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: you think that's a pretty terrible belief. Instead of immediately 335 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: rebutting it and trying to persuade them not to believe, 336 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: or that they're silly or uneducated or whatever it might be, 337 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 2: what you do is meet them where they're at and say, 338 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 2: I'm interested, what led you to this belief, how did 339 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 2: you come to it, what does it mean to you? 340 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: And a few things result from that. One is they 341 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: feel heard, and that way they don't have to be defensive. 342 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: They realize you understand, will want to understand at least 343 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: where they're coming from. You're not just dismissing them out 344 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: of hand. As soon as you start dismissing someone out 345 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: of hand, they get defensive and nothing else you say 346 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 2: is going to get through that. But the other thing 347 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: that happens is you're creating a relationship between the two 348 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: of you as person to person and not as idea 349 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: to idea. And once you start seeing people as people, 350 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: there's a connection that allows you to hear them more easily, 351 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: less defensively, all of those sorts of things. 352 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: If I gifted you a plaque to put on your wall, 353 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: something that you constantly want to be reminded of, what 354 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: would you want it to say. 355 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: That's a really easy one for me because I did 356 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: have a plaque that I put on my wall in 357 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 2: my first office at my first job at the Queen 358 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 2: Vick Hospital, and it was a poster. It had a 359 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 2: tortoise on it and below the tortoise with the words 360 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,719 Speaker 2: behold the tortoise who only makes progress when he sticks 361 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 2: his neck out? 362 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: Yes, I think you told me about that one before, 363 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: and would it be the same one, like, if I 364 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: could gift you with a plaque today, is that still 365 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: as true as it was back then? 366 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: It's definitely still as true as it is back then. 367 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 2: My problem is I would like quite a few plaques 368 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: with different sayings in them. And one of my favorites 369 00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 2: is by a Danish philosopher, Kirker Guard, and he said 370 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: life can only be understood backwards, but must be lived forwards. 371 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: And I love that. 372 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: Why do you love that one so much? 373 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: Because I think it says that you don't yet know 374 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 2: what the meaning of this particular experience will be in 375 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: your life. You know, it's saying that very often we 376 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 2: think we know what will happen, what this means, but 377 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: we haven't yet got the larger picture. And that something 378 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: that we think will be disastrous may be disastrous in 379 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: the moment, and we may get very upset about it, 380 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 2: and then when we look back in five years time, 381 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 2: we can see that actually something extremely valuable came out 382 00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: of that. 383 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. Now, finally, Mum, you have a 384 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: new book out. I think this is your tenth or 385 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: eleventh book, and it is your first book for children, 386 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: although middle aged readers, they're like nine to twelve year olds. 387 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: Is that the desteration? 388 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'd love you to explain how this book 389 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: actually came to be, because I think it's quite an 390 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: interesting story. 391 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: Well, it started I think in two ways. One was 392 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: that I loved reading stories to my granddaughter and she 393 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: loved hearing them. And I went through some absolutely terrific books, 394 00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: Harry Potter, all sorts of books, and I just assumed 395 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: there would be a really large supply of them. And 396 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: the qualities that I was looking for were well written, 397 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: not talking down to kids, you know, using language that 398 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: was complex enough so that they would learn things, lots 399 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: of adventure so that it was page turning because little 400 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: kids have an attention span that needs drama. And I 401 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: liked books with a sense of humor, that were playful, 402 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: that had magic in them. That's my personal taste. It 403 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: was also my granddaughters and the other quality that she 404 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: really liked. And I would also make up stories for 405 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: her at bedtime, and she always requested stories that had 406 00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: danger in them, you know. And she would say, I 407 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: want so and so and this and that in the 408 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: story and danger, and I want to send to her. 409 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: Why do you like to have danger in your stories? 410 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 2: And she said, because I like to see how people 411 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: get out of it. And I thought that was absolutely brilliant. 412 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 2: But long in the short of it is, I actually 413 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: ran out of books and was disappointed with the quality of, 414 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: you know, the ones that I could find, and so 415 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: I thought I'll write my own and discovered that I 416 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: just love writing for kids. 417 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: Ow. I was lucky enough to read Philimella and the 418 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: Impossible Forest as it ended up being titled during its inception, 419 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: because essentially, I remember you were reading it to Frankie 420 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: and you were literally writing it as you were reading 421 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: it in terms of the very very first draft, and 422 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: so you would write a few chapters, you would read 423 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: them to Frankie, and then Frankie would say to me 424 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: when we'd be on the way to your house. Do 425 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: you think Nana's going to be able to read me 426 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: more Filamella today? And said, I don't know if it's 427 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: written yet, Frankie, but we'll see. And so I found 428 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: that a really interesting process of how the book came 429 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: to be, which I imagine is quite unusual for this 430 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: kind of a chapter book for kids. 431 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: Well, I've written books in a lot of genres and 432 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: I love writing, but this was just the most fun 433 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: to write. I just let my imagination run wild, and 434 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: I just wrote a chapter by chapter without knowing what 435 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: was coming next, and somehow it just all fit together perfectly. 436 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: It was like a kind of magic in itself. And 437 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: I wanted it to be page turning and fun, with 438 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: dangerous quests and magic and quirky characters, so that kids 439 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: would love reading it. But I also wanted Philimella to 440 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: have to defeat powerful magic by using only her brains. 441 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: I wanted her to learn that she could think her 442 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: way through things instead of just reacting helplessly. And it's 443 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: a quest story like The Wizard of Oz with a 444 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: splash of Alice in Wonderland. But I think the most 445 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: interesting quests are the internal ones. The ones where you 446 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: have to go inside yourself and see what really is 447 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: there and what needs to change, and that internal quest 448 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 2: is also the quest Philamella goes on in tandem with 449 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: the external magical quest, and in the course of it 450 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: she has to learn lots of things, among them how 451 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: to manage anger, how to just to change, how to 452 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: deal with fear, how to pick herself up after failing, 453 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: and really importantly, the value of kindness and compassion even 454 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: in the face of danger. And I think they're well 455 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: they're things that many of us have to learn, not 456 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: just kids. And one of the lovely things about a 457 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: book like this is that you can have a conversation 458 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: with your child about it, because when you talk with 459 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 2: kids about the characters in a book like this, it's 460 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: a great way of having a conversation about topics they 461 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: might normally clam up about. Kids are often reluctant to 462 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: talk about emotional issues, but they're perfectly happy to talk 463 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: about a book they're reading. And when they tell you 464 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 2: what they think about a character's actions or predicament, they're 465 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: really telling you about themselves, but in a way that's 466 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: not threatening to them. And it's a great way to 467 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 2: have a meaningful but non threatening conversation about important topics. 468 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: For parents listening. I mean, you know, the middle aged 469 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: reader category strictly, I think is between nine to twelve. 470 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: But I mean Frankie was six and seven years old 471 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: when Philamella was being created and read to her. She 472 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: just loved it. I loved reading it to her. So 473 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: if you have kids of that age, I just I 474 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: could just guarantee that they will lap up Philamella and 475 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: the Impossible Forests. So you can get that now wherever 476 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: you buy books to read or books to listen to. 477 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: Mum has been the second time I've had you on 478 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: the show. Although last time it was How I Work, 479 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: this time it's How I Live. It has been just 480 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: as insightful and I love that I've learned new things 481 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: that I didn't know, and so thank you so much 482 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. 483 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed it too. 484 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing part of your day 485 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Live. If you're 486 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better and 487 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: live better, connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram to 488 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. How I Live was recorded on 489 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: the traditional land of the orangery people, part of the 490 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: cool and nation. I'm so grateful for being able to 491 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: work and live on this beautiful land, and I want 492 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 1: to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. 493 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: How I Live is produced by Inventium with production support 494 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 495 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: Liam Ridan and sound engineering was done by Martin Imber