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Speaker 1: This is Outspoken.

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Speaker 2: The podcast is not afraid to say exactly what you're thinking.

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Speaker 1: Our names are Amy Kay and Sophie Torba.

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Speaker 2: We're identical triplets, but we often don't have identical opinions,

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Speaker 2: so sometimes things can get heated. Outspoken covers all things

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Speaker 2: reality TV, influencers, entertainment, and issues facing women.

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Speaker 1: That is so fetch thank you.

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Speaker 2: I've got quite a spring in my step this Monday morning,

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Speaker 2: because there's no better feeling than knowing it is a

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Speaker 2: four day working week and it is the Easter long weekend,

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Speaker 2: four days off, heaps of chocolate.

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Speaker 1: This has sprung up so quickly.

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Speaker 2: It's really taken me by surprise, because I think it's

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Speaker 2: because they release Hot Cross Buns so early that you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't have that starting point to say, oh, the

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Speaker 2: Easter period has bene so they've only had Hot Cross

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Speaker 2: Buns in the shop for like six months. And you're saying, but.

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Speaker 1: That's what I But that's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: I'm saying if they release them at an appropriate time,

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Speaker 2: it kind of signifies that the East defestive period is beginning. Look,

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Speaker 2: I'm happy with how early they release them because they're

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Speaker 2: quite a staple in my diet, and actually the thought

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Speaker 2: that Easter is going to be over in a couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks actually depresses me because I think they should

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Speaker 2: be an all year round thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh, they pretty much are.

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Speaker 2: Sophy said to me the other day. She was getting

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Speaker 2: depressed that hot cross bunds wouldn't be in stores, and

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Speaker 2: I had to remind her that they do keep selling them,

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Speaker 2: but they just take off the cross. Did you guys

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Speaker 2: see that, Yes, they did that.

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Speaker 1: It's not the same. I don't think it's the same.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what's also interesting about this weekend coming

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Speaker 2: up that for people that actually have daylight savings, like

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Speaker 2: an Adelaide, it's going to be over, So it's I

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Speaker 2: feel like it's that transition into winter and darkness. Do

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Speaker 2: you know what I am enjoying now that it's getting

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Speaker 2: a little bit cooler. I've been getting into my matching

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Speaker 2: pajama set, but I just look like this massive baby.

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Speaker 2: Like I came down and Brandon just burst that laughing

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Speaker 2: because it's like, why they match it? Wait, what is

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Speaker 2: your matching pajama sex? I don't think I've ever seen this,

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Speaker 2: because when we lived together, you used to just wear

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Speaker 2: some pineapple pants.

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Speaker 1: With a hole in the bump.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're a matching pink like we got each other

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Speaker 2: the same. Yeah, they've got little teddy bears on them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're pretty cute.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to look even more tragic because Reyes

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Speaker 2: got me an oodie for my birthday and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to know. It's got mini mouse on it and

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Speaker 2: it's pink. So again, I look like I'm five years old,

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Speaker 2: and I just know I'm going to be living in

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Speaker 2: it all winter.

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Speaker 1: I reckon if I'm.

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Speaker 2: Going to invest in one, I'm just going to get

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Speaker 2: a plane one.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I feel like because I'll be wearing it so much

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Speaker 2: that I'll get sick of whatever cartoon characters on that. Now,

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Speaker 2: you don't want a plane one because then you might

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Speaker 2: actually wear it out to the shops, whereas I know

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Speaker 2: that I can't wear it out of the house because

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Speaker 2: I look like I'm five. I kind of respect someone

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Speaker 2: if they do choose to wear it at the shops.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Like that's why I'm not getting one,

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Speaker 2: because I honestly would wear it to the shops with

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Speaker 2: your big ug boots. Yeah, I wear my rug boots

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Speaker 2: at the shops. I honestly don't give a shit. And

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Speaker 2: the shops are just across the road from me as well,

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Speaker 2: so I'm there all the time. It is so funny

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Speaker 2: because Amy is literally at the shop so often that

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Speaker 2: there's a girl working there in the self service checkout

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Speaker 2: area that knows you by name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I was there one weekend and I was dressed

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Speaker 2: in just jeans and a white top, and she mistook

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Speaker 2: me for you, And she's like, no, she did, she

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Speaker 2: knew it was whatever. She's like, wow, you look really

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Speaker 2: nice today. What are you all dressed up for? And

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Speaker 2: I was thinking, God, I must come here looking like crap.

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Speaker 2: If you think I'm dressed up. I actually think after

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Speaker 2: COVID that jeans at the top is very dressed up.

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Speaker 2: Like that's my go to formal attire these days.

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Speaker 1: I hate wearing jeans.

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Speaker 2: Just back to Easter quickly. I kind of want to

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Speaker 2: throw Sophie under the bus here because we were having

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Speaker 2: a little chat off Mike about how East is coming up,

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Speaker 2: and so said, oh, Brandon and I have just decided

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Speaker 2: that we're not going to buy each other chocolate. We're

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Speaker 2: just going to spend fifty dollars on each other for Easter,

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Speaker 2: and I have to ask you on Mike, Sophie, have

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Speaker 2: you previously spent fifty dollars on Brandon in chocolate?

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Speaker 1: Like, have you bought the chocolate? That's very extravagant.

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Speaker 2: I haven't, but we've decided because we're trying to be healthy,

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Speaker 2: but we want to get a present. So what can

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Speaker 2: you get for a present for twenty dollars? Why not

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Speaker 2: just save the money? Aren't you saving for her?

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Speaker 1: Festive time?

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Speaker 2: It's a festive time, Okay, you're supposed to celebrates the best,

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Speaker 2: if the right word to destrive, I think you can

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Speaker 2: use festive. It's like a fun time you're around family members.

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Speaker 2: It is funny you say that, though, so because Reese

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Speaker 2: told me not to buy them anything and he didn't

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Speaker 2: want any chocolate, But there wasn't a mention of fifty

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Speaker 2: dollars gifts. Well, I suppose just different, aren't they. I've

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Speaker 2: actually booked a tennis court at a national park here

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Speaker 2: in Adelaide for our Easter Sunday, and I'm so excited

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Speaker 2: because our mom's going to be there and Reese's mum

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Speaker 2: is going to be there, and I feel like they'll

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Speaker 2: team together and put on a pretty epic easter a

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Speaker 2: hunt for us. Okay, someone did write into the podcast

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Speaker 2: a listener asking whether you were concealing an engagement ring

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Speaker 2: on your hand? Is this now that the are you

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Speaker 2: trying to like drop little hints now that the in

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Speaker 2: laws are all meeting and stuff? Oh no, No, It's

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Speaker 2: quite funny that someone like spired that out, because when

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Speaker 2: I saw that my hand was covered in the photo,

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Speaker 2: I just couldn't unsee it, Like it just looked so weird.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how I didn't even notice. But no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not engaged. We're just going back to the East

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Speaker 2: Egg hunt. I do want to hear if other people

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Speaker 2: do this in their twenties and thirties. Do your parents

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Speaker 2: still do an East Egg Hunt for you? Go to

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Speaker 2: our Facebook community, which has outspoken the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I feel a bit sad about doing this.

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Speaker 4: Let's rather take the magic out of it, preparing the

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Speaker 4: chocolates for the bunny.

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Speaker 2: But I suppose that's what becoming an adult.

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Speaker 1: It's all about a Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: A hotel in Brisbane, famous for its instagrammable aesthetic, has

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Speaker 2: ordered a micro influencer to remove photos from her visit

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Speaker 2: despite paying to stay at the Calisle Hotel. Britt Daisy

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Speaker 2: was told she had to remove happy snaps taken at

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Speaker 2: the hotel because it contradicted their commercial photography policy. Brit

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Speaker 2: joins us on the show to tell us what exactly happened.

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Speaker 5: So essentially, this hotel in Brisbane called the Kalis, my

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Speaker 5: friends and I we kind of like double in a

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Speaker 5: bit of micro influencing, and we saw this hotel all

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Speaker 5: over Instagram because a lot of bloggers have stayed there,

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Speaker 5: and that's how we found out about it, because it's

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Speaker 5: just an Instagram as dream like, so ascetic, so beautiful.

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Speaker 3: So we paid to have like a little holiday there.

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Speaker 5: But I guess when we booked it, one of the incentives,

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Speaker 5: because it's quite expensive, one of our incentives was that

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Speaker 5: we will get a lot of content creation done there

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Speaker 5: because it's just it's super asthetic, so it's like perfect

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Speaker 5: content creation space.

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Speaker 3: So we booked it and we.

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Speaker 5: Went and when we checked in, we obviously had to

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Speaker 5: sign I guess a like forms upon check in, but

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Speaker 5: I've experience was a bit chaotic, so Guilty didn't really

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Speaker 5: read the forms, just signed it and we went there

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Speaker 5: and took heaps and heaps of Instagram stories and of course,

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Speaker 5: like I would just tag the Kalal in all my

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Speaker 5: stories and post because we were having such a nice

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Speaker 5: time at the hotel, like it was such a pleasurable

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Speaker 5: experience and everything was so beautiful that I guess you

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Speaker 5: when you as a micro influencer or as a blogger,

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Speaker 5: when you love something, you.

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Speaker 3: Post about it because.

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Speaker 5: It's getting the name out there and you're usually it's

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Speaker 5: like a symbiotic transaction, like you're somewhere beautiful, you tag

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Speaker 5: them and people see it. And I had heaps and

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Speaker 5: heaps of friends and like even just my followers replying

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Speaker 5: to my stories being like this hotel is amazing, like

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Speaker 5: I want to stay there, and I was like, yes,

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Speaker 5: so it's honestly so amazing, Like I couldn't speak higher

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Speaker 5: out of it. So we took a bunch of photos

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Speaker 5: and then obviously uploaded them on our feed, and then

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Speaker 5: when we got back, I got a message from the

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Speaker 5: Calile themselves, and the general gist was that as guests

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Speaker 5: are not permitted to have any cross promotions in their

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Speaker 5: photos of the Calisle, so you're not allowed to tag

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Speaker 5: any brands, and the photos that I had on my feed,

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Speaker 5: like none of them were sponsored or paid posts. It

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Speaker 5: was just like stuff that I had been gifted and

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Speaker 5: clothing that I was wearing of brands that I work with,

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Speaker 5: so obviously I tagged them. And I was also tagging

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Speaker 5: the Kalisal because that's where I was, and I thought

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Speaker 5: like that would.

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Speaker 3: Be a good thing for them.

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Speaker 5: And then they yeah, so they they messaged me, and

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Speaker 5: they also messaged my two friends who stayed with me,

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Speaker 5: who were also doing the same thing, and they basically said,

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Speaker 5: you have to take down the photos. And I read

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Speaker 5: it and I was like, wow, that's unlike anything I've

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Speaker 5: ever heard before, because usually it's hotels being like, oh

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Speaker 5: can you tag us, or like a restaurant usually if

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Speaker 5: you take a photo there, they will ask you to

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Speaker 5: tag them because like they want that exposure.

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Speaker 3: But they didn't.

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Speaker 5: So, yeah, they told us to take it down, so

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Speaker 5: I assumed they just meant take off any tags that

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Speaker 5: stated that I was at the Kalisal, So I untagged

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Speaker 5: them from all my photos and I took away the

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Speaker 5: GEO tag and I thought it would be fine, and

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Speaker 5: then they emailed again, DMed me again and were like, oh,

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Speaker 5: you still haven't like removed the promotional messages like and

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Speaker 5: then they re explained to their policy that you're not

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Speaker 5: allowed any promotional messages on photos taken in their premises.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I had to, they said, I had.

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Speaker 5: They wanted me to remove the photos, but I didn't

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Speaker 5: want to, and so we basically compromised by I just

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Speaker 5: took off the promotional messages that were in my caption

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Speaker 5: and I removed all the tags, and yeah, one of

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Speaker 5: the photos was at like literally in front of one

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Speaker 5: of their elevators, so you absolutely could not tell I

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Speaker 5: was even at the Kala Hotel. And they still wanted

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Speaker 5: that taken down because I had just like i'd written

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Speaker 5: a caption saying like so stoked, I didn't spill anything

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Speaker 5: on my all light outfit, and then I just had

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Speaker 5: pants by glasses, and they wanted the pants by Glasses

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Speaker 5: removed because that was, in their eyes.

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Speaker 3: Promotional messaging.

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Speaker 5: And I explained to them like, no, I wasn't even

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Speaker 5: that wasn't even a collub like I literally am telling

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Speaker 5: my followers where my pants were from and.

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Speaker 3: You can't even tell where I am.

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Speaker 5: And then they kind of came back being like, yes,

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Speaker 5: it still breaches our policy. So basically, when I got

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Speaker 5: that message and when my friends got it as well.

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Speaker 5: I went to one of my influencer friends who has

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Speaker 5: like a lot more followers in me. She's quite well known,

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Speaker 5: she's got about three hundred K, and she was actually

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Speaker 5: staying at the Calaal around the same time as I was,

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Speaker 5: and I noticed she had a lot of photos on

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Speaker 5: her grid tagging other brands in the Kalaal premises.

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Speaker 3: So I messaged her and I said, oh, did you

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Speaker 3: get this as well? What do you think? And she

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Speaker 3: was like shocked by the whole thing.

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Speaker 5: She was like, dude, it's so crazy, She's like, but

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Speaker 5: that's why I never tagged them in any of my

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Speaker 5: stories or posts, because I knew that if I tagged them,

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Speaker 5: they'd be able to kind of like track that I'd

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Speaker 5: been there and they might see that I have those

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Speaker 5: photos up. And she's like, I had heard from other

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Speaker 5: bloggers that they don't like it when you upload brand

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Speaker 5: images taken in their premises. So that's why she didn't

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Speaker 5: do it. And they haven't messaged her obviously, because it

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Speaker 5: hasn't been on their radar that she stayed there and

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Speaker 5: took photos because she never once tagged them. But it's

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Speaker 5: just crazy because that's creating an environment where bloggers are

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Speaker 5: going to go there and not ever tag them because

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Speaker 5: they don't want to be tracked down. And obviously one

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Speaker 5: of the biggest incentives to stay there is because it's

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Speaker 5: so ascetic and it's so perfect for content creation. And

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Speaker 5: I guess if you're paying money to stay somewhere, you

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Speaker 5: want to get the most you can out of it,

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Speaker 5: and if that means not tagging them at all, you

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Speaker 5: will do that. So then you can still take some

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Speaker 5: photos and upload them and then you can't be told

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Speaker 5: to remove them. Even like Shiny Grimman uploaded a photo

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Speaker 5: on her unfilleded account today or yesterday. I think it

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Speaker 5: was saying that she got in trouble for taking the

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Speaker 5: photo and I could tell that it was taken in

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Speaker 5: the Calile. She obviously didn't tag it or anything, but

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Speaker 5: you could tell so. And she's huge. She's got over

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Speaker 5: a million followers, so in my eyes, her tagging that

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Speaker 5: she was at the Cali would bring huge attraction to

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Speaker 5: the hotel. So it's clearly not just micro influences that

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Speaker 5: they don't want posting at the hotel. It's also these

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Speaker 5: massive ones which could bring them so much business. So

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Speaker 5: it's crazy. I just was a bit surprised about the

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Speaker 5: their ability to dictate what photos you put up publicly

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Speaker 5: if you're a paying patron, like you're not in any

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Speaker 5: sort of agreement with them. I guess you sign on

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Speaker 5: arrival apparently. I mean that's my bart. I didn't see

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Speaker 5: that part, which I'm guessing a lot of influencers don't

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Speaker 5: because it seems that there's been a few who have

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Speaker 5: had this same problem. But it's a bit I guess

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Speaker 5: it takes away a bit of your agency and like

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Speaker 5: it's not a private power property if people are paying

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Speaker 5: to stay there, So that's where the bit of the

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Speaker 5: tension is.

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Speaker 3: I think. Well, I think, obviously, because.

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Speaker 5: It is so beautiful, a lot of brands and influencers

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Speaker 5: would want to shoot there. And I do one hundred

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Speaker 5: percent understand if you know you're launching a brand and

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Speaker 5: you've gone there and you've taken your photo shoot that

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Speaker 5: you're then going to sell your products from, that would

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Speaker 5: of course, like you would need their permission and you

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Speaker 5: probably need to pay them like your location fees.

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Speaker 3: But I think the reason why like that. I spoke

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Speaker 3: to my.

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Speaker 5: PhD supervisor about it because I thought it was just

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Speaker 5: so crazy because my whole PhD is about like visibility

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Speaker 5: and exposure being a currency in the social media landscape,

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Speaker 5: and that is how this hotel pretty much got its

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Speaker 5: reputation because everyone saw it all over Instagram and influencers

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Speaker 5: were taking beautiful photos there and that got its name

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Speaker 5: out there. So my supervisor was assuming that maybe they

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Speaker 5: were in a legal issue at one point which made

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Speaker 5: them just want to not be associated with any other

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Speaker 5: brands just to safeguard themselves or another I guess potential

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Speaker 5: reason would be they want control over all brands that

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Speaker 5: are going to be associated with their hotels.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, there's not.

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Speaker 5: Many harmful brands out there that you can really think

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Speaker 5: of that like taint the reputation of the hotel, and

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Speaker 5: I think most consumers are quite the consumers are quite

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Speaker 5: conscious these days, and I'm sure like seeing an influencer

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Speaker 5: promoting a brand in a hotel with just the location

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Speaker 5: setting tagged, wouldn't not many people would associate the brand

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Speaker 5: and then the location as well. But they don't even like,

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Speaker 5: they don't even care if the location isn't tagged. It's

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Speaker 5: more that if it's on their premises at all and

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Speaker 5: you can see any part of their interior exterior in

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Speaker 5: the photo, then they don't want any promotional messaging. And

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Speaker 5: it doesn't matter if like the Calole name is in

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Speaker 5: there or whatnot, Like as long as you're on their

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Speaker 5: premises and the photo is showcasing any part of their premises,

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Speaker 5: then they just don't want any promotional messaging in the

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Speaker 5: caption or on the photo. I've spoken to a few

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Speaker 5: other micro influencers and it kind of left a bit

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Speaker 5: of a bad taste in our mouth. Like we had

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Speaker 5: such a favorable stay at the hotel and we loved

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Speaker 5: it so much and we couldn't speak high I like

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Speaker 5: hire of it, and now we're a bit like, I

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Speaker 5: don't know if I'd stay there again, because you know,

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Speaker 5: if you're staying somewhere so beautiful and you have that

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Speaker 5: like content creation mindset, of course you're going to want

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Speaker 5: to take photos there. And I mean, you can one

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Speaker 5: hundred percent go there and not tag any other brands

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Speaker 5: and upload photos and that's fine.

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Speaker 3: But I guess one.

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Speaker 5: Of the justifications for spending the money to stay there

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Speaker 5: is because you can also, you know, take beautiful content

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Speaker 5: for the brand that you work with, And I guess

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Speaker 5: that kind of it kind of takes that away, and

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Speaker 5: now a lot of influencers are talking poorly of the

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Speaker 5: hotel because it's just unlike anything that we've ever experienced

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Speaker 5: with any other business. So I think from a PR perspective,

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Speaker 5: it's going to discourage influencers from staying there, and that's

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Speaker 5: how they got famous. And they've also sent bloggers there

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Speaker 5: and obviously paid bloggers to stay there, and that content's

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Speaker 5: been fine because obviously they've only been promoting the hotel,

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Speaker 5: but it's kind of like you can't use I mean

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Speaker 5: you can, but it's a bit of mixed messaging when

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Speaker 5: you're paying bloggers to stay there and promote it and

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Speaker 5: then telling other bloggers who have paid to stay there

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Speaker 5: that they can't upload photos unless you're only tagging the

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Speaker 5: Kalis because we've paid to stay there and we don't

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Speaker 5: have any deal with or we're not doing any work

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Speaker 5: with the Kalis. So it's kind of I guess a

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Speaker 5: bit of dissonance between whether they want influencer marketing or

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Speaker 5: they don't, Like they clearly value influencer marketing if they're

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Speaker 5: getting influencers to stay there for them, but then they

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Speaker 5: only want those chosen influencers to be posting about them,

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Speaker 5: so that in itself is a bit confusing.

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Speaker 2: Now that it's just the three of us, I feel

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Speaker 2: like there's a lot to unpack because I'm in two

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Speaker 2: minds about this hotel's policy.

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Speaker 1: What did you guys think about it?

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Speaker 3: Really?

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised you're in two minds about it because when

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Speaker 2: I first heard this story, I could not believe it

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Speaker 2: because from a pr perspective, if you're a hotel like this,

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Speaker 2: you want influencers tagging you in content. And I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's a little bit hypocritical of the hotel because

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Speaker 2: they are known as an influencer hotel, and originally it

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Speaker 2: is influencers who have made this hotel, and it seems

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Speaker 2: a little bit odd that they're now telling people, actually, no,

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Speaker 2: do not tag us.

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Speaker 1: In your content.

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Speaker 2: But do you think that they're at a stage now

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Speaker 2: where they don't actually need influencers to promote them. They're

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Speaker 2: big enough as it is. I feel like they perhaps

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Speaker 2: are at a stage where they want to be exclusive

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Speaker 2: and choose the influencers and brands that they choose to

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Speaker 2: work with. I don't think that's true at all, because,

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Speaker 2: as Britt mentioned in the interview, the likes of Shane

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Speaker 2: Grimman were told not to take photos at the Carlosle Hotel. Well,

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Speaker 2: it's really interesting when you think about the commercial aspect

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Speaker 2: of this. So the hotel doesn't earn any of the

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Speaker 2: money that the influencer is actually earning of taking a

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Speaker 2: photo in their very esthetic hotel. So I feel like

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Speaker 2: if you're a paying guest, then that kind of is

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Speaker 2: the narrative. However, if you're rocking up to the hotel

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Speaker 2: and using it as a backdrop to take brand photos,

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Speaker 2: I don't think people are just randomly rocking up to

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Speaker 2: the hotel and taking photos. I think they're staying as guests,

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Speaker 2: or they're going to the restaurant at the hotel.

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Speaker 1: No, I think people are. It happens a lot.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen influencers vlogging about how they take

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Speaker 2: their photos, and they go and stand out the front

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Speaker 2: of like random rich people's houses and pretend that it's

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Speaker 2: their house.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's so funny.

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Speaker 2: I have to butt in because I was on trip

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Speaker 2: Advisor just checking out information about the hotel, and the

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Speaker 2: first review that popped up was that said overrun with influencers.

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Speaker 2: If you want to feel like you're at a cheap

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Speaker 2: hotel on the Gold Coast.

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Speaker 1: This is for you.

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Speaker 2: Don't forget your boat shoes and white linen shirts. Boys

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Speaker 2: and girls. You must be sure to pack your most

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Speaker 2: instagrammable outfits. The hotel is beautifully designed, but a real

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Speaker 2: miss on the guests. If you'd like to not be

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Speaker 2: able to swim in your hotel, Paul, this is for

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Speaker 2: you and the pool stuff aren't interested in finding somewhere

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Speaker 2: for you better to stay in the sanctuary of your room.

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Speaker 2: If you ask me, the thing is the photos in

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Speaker 2: question that posted you couldn't even tell that they were

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Speaker 2: at the hotel. I mean one of the photos, as

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Speaker 2: she said, was in front of a lift and the

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Speaker 2: other was in front of a white wall. But she's

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Speaker 2: tagged the hotel and they've gone take it down.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we need.

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Speaker 2: To take a look at what the Calai Hotel's rules

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Speaker 2: actually are about photography.

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Speaker 1: So on their website they have a Frequently.

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Speaker 2: Asked Questions section and there is an area called photo,

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Speaker 2: video and commercial use. So they say, while we passionately

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Speaker 2: support creative initiatives, any activity, including photography and videography of

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Speaker 2: a commercial or promotional nature, is not permitted anywhere within

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Speaker 2: the hotel without the prior written approval of hotel management,

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Speaker 2: and in the case of photography slash videography without an

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Speaker 2: authorized location acknowledgment. Hotel management has the right to counsel

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Speaker 2: accommodations and require the immediate seation of any activity taking

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Speaker 2: place in breach of this condition. Unauthorized imagery or video

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Speaker 2: must not be published on any media and must be

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Speaker 2: immediately removed from the public domain upon request from hotel management.

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Speaker 2: Hotel rooms are to be used solely for guest accommodation

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Speaker 2: and enjoyment. Hotel rooms are not to be used as

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Speaker 2: locations for commercial activity, including pop up shows, trunk shows, etc.

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Speaker 2: I take it from these terms and conditions that they

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Speaker 2: have been royally screwed over by some influencers in the

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Speaker 2: past who have taken advantage of the rooms.

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Speaker 1: You might be right.

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Speaker 2: So it also might be a case of that they've

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Speaker 2: seen so many influencers come in and use the hotel

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Speaker 2: as a backdrop and make a lot of money from

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Speaker 2: it that they're now trying to control how the money

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Speaker 2: is made and sort of take their own cut. Yeahtual,

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Speaker 2: I mean the thing is I get that obviously they

437
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Speaker 2: would like to be paid a location fee. However, in

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00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 2: the case of this influencer brit who spoke to us,

439
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 2: she has a micro following, she has ten thousand followers,

440
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 2: and the photos that she was putting up, she wasn't

441
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: actually paid for the clothing. She was gifted the clothing. However,

442
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 2: as a micro influencer, you've got to start out somewhere,

443
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 2: so she was trying to take photos that other bigger

444
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 2: influences would take of clothing and tap the clothing in it.

445
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 2: I feel like, where do you draw on the line

446
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,880
Speaker 2: in terms of what the commercial gain is. So if

447
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 2: I'm be gifted a share I can't take a photo

448
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: in the hotel room. Well, they classify in their terms

449
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 2: and conditions that it's also stuff that's of a promotional nature,

450
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: so I'm assuming that they count gifted items involved in that.

451
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: I personally don't agree with that. I think that if

452
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 2: you have been gifted something, or you're a fashion blogger

453
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: trying to create your feed, you should be allowed to

454
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: just post up a photo of yourself at the hotel

455
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:28,199
Speaker 2: that you've paid to stay out.

456
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

457
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 2: Well, they have said that you can post photos of

458
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,719
Speaker 2: a personal nature, but as you said, not created for promotion.

459
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 2: So I think that this is where the line is

460
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 2: really blurred, because again, a micro influencer isn't necessarily gaining

461
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 2: a lot from posting that photo. That it's sort of

462
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: they're curating their image. And as Britt did mention, she

463
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: actually got a lot of comments from her followers being like,

464
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, where did you stay? I really want

465
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 2: to stay there? So the feedback otion, Yeah, the feedback

466
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 2: was really positive. Well, the weird thing is that influencers

467
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 2: themselves are sometimes the product that they are pushed. If

468
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: you're a micro influencer, you're going to be taking photos

469
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 2: of yourself in glamorous places.

470
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: Like this hotel. So where do we draw the line?

471
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 2: Are you allowed to promote yourself as.

472
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: The product and the photo?

473
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 2: Though? Because they don't have an issue with people taking

474
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 2: photos of themselves there, they have an issue with people

475
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 2: trying to connect different brands that they're not associated with

476
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 2: their brand.

477
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: That's what the problem is.

478
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: The thing is the hotel said to brit that if

479
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: she untagged the image like the brands in the photo,

480
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: she could keep the photos up. So it seems that

481
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: the hotel is okay if you're a guest and you

482
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: take a photo. However, they don't want you taking photos

483
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 2: of particular products in the hotel and then tagging them.

484
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: I feel like it.

485
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 2: Could be because they do have a pop up retail

486
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: space where they do host some of the region's most

487
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: promising upcoming fashion designers.

488
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 1: So I feel like if you take a look.

489
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 2: At influencers, majority of them are promoting fast fashion brands.

490
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 2: So maybe because they do have this pop up retail

491
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 2: space that is why they need permission to be allowed

492
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: to But what is it. What do you mean pop

493
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 2: up retail they have in the hotel. They have an

494
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: area where people can buy clothes. I assume yeah, so

495
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 2: they don't want an influencer coming in and a pretty

496
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 2: little thing outfit and tagging, you know, pretty little thing

497
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: in their hotel because they're wanting to champion their own

498
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: brand that they've got in the hotel. It's actually pretty

499
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 2: interesting because the wife of one of the co owners

500
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 2: of the hotel, she actually has her own swimwear brand

501
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: as well. So I wonder if it is so.

502
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: Is that they don't want any competition.

503
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: I am really interested to see moving forward, how this

504
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,959
Speaker 2: hotel's relationship with influencers develops, because they have had a

505
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: history of having big brand launchers at the hotel, as

506
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: well as hosting certain influences on staycations. It does seem

507
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: dangerous to kind of make enemies with micro influencers because

508
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: you really don't know when those influencers are going to

509
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 2: take off, and then you actually want them at taking

510
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 2: photos at your hotel. It's pretty funny because I feel

511
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: like in Adelaide hotels would be dying for any sort

512
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: of micro influencers to post about them, So that's why

513
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: it is all a little bit ironic. I do feel

514
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: for Britain her friends because I don't feel like they

515
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 2: were trying to do anything wrong. I mean, they obviously

516
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: didn't read the terms and conditions, but who does read

517
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: those things when they sign into a hotel. They probably

518
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: thought they were doing the hotel a favor by posting

519
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: about them. It's also great look for the hotel because

520
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: if I receive something like that, I.

521
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: Would be so offended.

522
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: Well, Britt did say that they were extremely lovely at

523
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: the hotel, and she kind of wanted to bring it

524
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 2: up more as a talking point because to me, it

525
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: is such an interesting conversation and I do wonder if

526
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: other hotels or other venues, like you know, brunch spots,

527
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 2: are they going to start implementing similar rules because the

528
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 2: social media space is just really flourishing and developing, So

529
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: it might be something that we see in the future.

530
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: And as you touched on earlier, Amy, I feel like

531
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: influencers have really become a brand themselves and they do

532
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: show what they stand for or don't stand for. So

533
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 2: it is interesting now that some places are saying, hey.

534
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: We don't even want to be tagged by you.

535
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 4: Who wants to stand there and eat cold lengsil soup.

536
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 4: It tastes like sick. It tastes that I'm sicking it

537
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 4: up after an eye out, That's what it's. Wouldn't even

538
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 4: give my dog that that ship mate, that's ship on

539
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 4: a plate.

540
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: Now, before we get into the next door, we need

541
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 2: to preface that we will be getting into some toilet tour.

542
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: We promise it's not as graphic as last week when

543
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: we were talking about Green Pooth. If anyone's eating their breakfast,

544
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: maybe pause and finis full.

545
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: It's honestly not that bad.

546
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: So Martha from Married at First site has shot that

547
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 2: was genuine. So she has shared a video of herself

548
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: yelling at her partner Michael for his bad aim when

549
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 2: it came to him pissing in the toilets.

550
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: Oh gosh.

551
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 2: I all I could think was how does he put

552
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: up with her?

553
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 4: Like?

554
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: Can you imagine being yelled at on the when you're

555
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: taking a piss.

556
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: It made me think, though, that that is what a

557
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: relationship is like two years a long term.

558
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: Lets let's play the click.

559
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: Can you please just sit down and piss?

560
00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: Please?

561
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 6: Why just do it?

562
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: A lot of guys do it.

563
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: Ah, I've just jipped everything in there and it's splashing.

564
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: I can from here on the foot tower, move to

565
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: the foot tower. This actually really reminded me of my

566
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: own relationship. Like even last night, I had hopped into

567
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: bed and Brandon had the door in our on Sweet

568
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: slightly open, and you know what, you can just hear

569
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: the last little drops of we coming out, and I

570
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: was like, could you close the door? Yeah, that's bad

571
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: because it makes you unique to go. Yeah, but she's

572
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: not asking him to close the door. She's telling him

573
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: that he has to sit down to piss. I mean

574
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: that's a bit emasculating.

575
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: Did you know that.

576
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if we've spoken about this, but some

577
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: people actually stand up to wipe their bem.

578
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: Ye, yes, we've discussed.

579
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 2: We've discussed, discussed. There's either people that stand up or

580
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: they you know, you know, do the normal thing reach around. Well,

581
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: before we get into any more disgusting conversation, I just

582
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 2: want to say that Michael did actually see the funny

583
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: side of it all, and he shared his own reel

584
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 2: to Instagram, which was entire how my girlfriend thinks I

585
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: take a piss And the clip showed him standing.

586
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: A meter away, so he had a.

587
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: Tape measure to make sure he was a meter away,

588
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: and then he put a blindfold on and then it

589
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: was like inferring that he was about to piss. I

590
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: find it funny that Martha would prefer him to sit

591
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: down when he pisss because she doesn't want.

592
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: To get like the floor dirty.

593
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: Like for me, if I came in and saw my

594
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: boyfriend sitting down taking a piss, I'd be like, what

595
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: the fuck? Was a very masculating, isn't it to see

596
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: a man sitting Oh? I think I don't see why

597
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: what the problem is? I mean, if they want to

598
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: sit down, but he doesn't want to sit down, he

599
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: stand up. No, But I was literally having this conversation

600
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: the other day with Dale, and I was saying, it's

601
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: actually pretty good being a girl, because this is okay,

602
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: I need to preface this. We were camping and Dale

603
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 2: bought me this like fold out toilet seat that's basically

604
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: a toilet seat on some legs, so I can sit

605
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 2: and go to the.

606
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: Toilet like a pody. I suppose, I know.

607
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I said to him, Oh, are you going

608
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: to use it? And he's like, I hope I don't

609
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 2: have to. And I said, do you know what, it's

610
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: actually quite good being a girl, having getting to sit

611
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 2: down because I go to the toilet a lot when

612
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: you though to stand. That was the only time I

613
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: said that it's not.

614
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: Great being a girl.

615
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, it seems pretty easy, like you could

616
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: just walk in, like when you've done like a really

617
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: hard workout. There's nothing worse than having to go to

618
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: like I go to the toilet so many times during

619
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: the day to do wee and getting down and having

620
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: to get back up. And also you mean like when

621
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: you've done legs day or something like, yeah, on the

622
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: toilet that's hard. Could I just say though? It was

623
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: so funny in our community we put up a post

624
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: about the green Peol incident involving the rainbow cake, and

625
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: one of our lovely members of the community wrote that

626
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: they loved that we were normalizing women talking about Pooh,

627
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: and I thought that is hilarious, Like, thank you so

628
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: much to whoever wrote that kinde comment.

629
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: But we're just being but we're just being vulgar.

630
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: And they're like, I love that you're actually normalizing it.

631
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: We are kind of our they were.

632
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: I actually also had to love one of the reviews

633
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: we got sent, so they gave us a one star

634
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: and they said, toilet humor, this is truly disgusting. Who

635
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: wants to listen to toilet Talk if you disagree? I mean,

636
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: this is just me literally asking for you to leave

637
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: and ize comment, but please leave about to say this

638
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: isn't gonna become a regular segment either, like this is

639
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: that might've been someone else that was put a false

640
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: eating their cereal.

641
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: Maybe I can understand why.

642
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: Moving on to Molly May from Love Island UK, and

643
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: she recently revealed on her Instagram story that she had

644
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: her composite bonds removed from her teeth and they're basically like,

645
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: are they kind of like a poor man's veneers. Well

646
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: they're not a poor man's veneers, but they don't grind

647
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: your teeth down to actually put the veneers on. It's

648
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: sort of like they I mean, I'm not an expert

649
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: on it, but I think they kind of like, let's

650
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: get bringing our mum, who's a gender with therapist. I

651
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: think we shut this stuff on that kind of makes

652
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: your teeth look bigger.

653
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: I suppose.

654
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: Like is that it did shock me when I first

655
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: saw it, because I was like, wow, they do look different.

656
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: But I think it's just when you see anything. Because

657
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: she's also documented herself getting her lips feel it dissolved,

658
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: and at first you're like, wow, she looks different, but

659
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: then you just get used to it. It's a good

660
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: different though. I'm so excited to see girls going back

661
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: to their natural state. It kind of reminds me of

662
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: that old show Snog Marry Avoid, where they'd have someone

663
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: in there and they're like, oh, we're going to remove

664
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: all of your fakery, and then they look.

665
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: So much better.

666
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, I think Molly may looked

667
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: really good before, but she looks even better in a

668
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: natural state.

669
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 6: Well.

670
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: I also love that she's got rid of her really

671
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: long hair extensions and she's got this cool sort of

672
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: lob going on. Have you noticed in the UK, though,

673
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: because I've heard that the lob has actually been created

674
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: with clipping hair extensions. But I feel like this is

675
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: something maybe our UK, any UK listeners can let us know.

676
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: A lot of YouTubers seem to sleep with those clip in.

677
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: Hair extensions in their hair. I can't add anything worse.

678
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: It actually makes me feel physically sick to my stomach

679
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: because I had days where I'd wear them for about

680
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: eight hours at a time and by the end of

681
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: the day it was like taking a bra if you know,

682
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: that feeling was unclipping your hair extension. That's why those

683
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: those halo hair extensions are so good. But you do

684
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: still after worrying them for a long time, it's the best,

685
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: like when you rip it off. I was gonna say,

686
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: I saw Anastata King's North in a vlog talking about

687
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: how she was going to leave her click in this

688
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: sentence in when she went to bed. I just yeah,

689
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: as you said, it made me feel sick. Well. Back

690
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: to Molly May and I really like the fact that

691
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: she has urged her young followers not to follow in

692
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: her footsteps in regards to cosmetic enhancements, because she said

693
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: she wished that she had waited to well so her

694
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: face would actually mature, which I think is really good advice.

695
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously people are open to make their own decisions,

696
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: but it seems like a lot of her decisions were

697
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: motivated by the fact that she was appearing on Love Island,

698
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: because she actually got the composite bonds done two days

699
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: before appearing on the show, and I think a lot

700
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: of the lip filler she also got was a result

701
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: of the fact she was going to be on TV.

702
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: Do you blame her though, because Love Island is probably

703
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: the biggest show in the UK at the moment and

704
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: they are absolutely torn to shreds by viewers. Yeah, I

705
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: don't blame her, but I am glad that she has

706
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: embraced her natural self and feeling confident enough to go

707
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: back to what she was like before Love Island, because

708
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: it would be pretty scary. You know, she's amassed all

709
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: these millions of followers and so many people know her

710
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: looking a certain way, so it would be really weird,

711
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: unveiling like your natural teeth.

712
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 3: Again.

713
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I found it really interesting because she spoke about

714
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: One of the main motivating factors for her transformation was

715
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: the fact that she wanted to look younger and she

716
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: is only about I think she's twenty one.

717
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: That freaks me out.

718
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 2: And she her and her partner Tommy, they look so

719
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: much older than twenty one. And she said that when

720
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: you're younger, you always want to look older, but then

721
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: when you get older. I mean, she's twenty one. Still,

722
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: she's still young, but you want to look younger. Yeah,

723
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: exactly right. It was really interesting because I think when

724
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 2: we were twenty one, we looked about fifteen, and I

725
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: know the feeling of really wanting to look younger. Now

726
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: being older or older. Now we're thirty two and being

727
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: asked if we're twenty three. In cookie, it's a real

728
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: full circle experience. You're not her sister, you're not her friend,

729
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: You're a liar, and I'm going.

730
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 6: To walk away from these lives because she's gonna sit

731
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 6: here and keep hying you.

732
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: You're the biggest poser in this town.

733
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 4: You know what You're going to burn stop.

734
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: It yet again.

735
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: Celeb's spellcheck has dominated our news feeds and our online

736
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: discussions this week, even though she's on a hiatus Ozzie

737
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: Influencer Opinions got everyone talking about her again. So Ruby

738
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: Tuesday Matthews, who well recall from Oystergate. She sent in

739
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: a message to Ossie Influencer Opinions and she was kind

740
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: of having a bit of a goal at her for

741
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: posting her and said, can you please not post me anymore?

742
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: And at the end of the message, she wrote, I

743
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,479
Speaker 2: would seriously recommend assessing your content that you post moving forward.

744
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: I would hate for you to be in Celeb's Spellcheck's boat.

745
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: I love this little mansion here because I feel like

746
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: everyone is dying for any sort of information about what

747
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: is happening with Celeb' Spellcheck that they thought maybe this

748
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: is a little bone we've all been through. Yeah, like

749
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: maybe she is getting sued. I mean she has come

750
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: out and said no, that is not the case. She's

751
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: not being sued, But we don't know what's in the works.

752
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: There's a lot of influencers that are very angry about

753
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: what Celeb's Spellcheck's been doing, and I feel like we

754
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: kind of touched upon it last week. But there has

755
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: been a lot of discussion around the video that Celeb's

756
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: Spellcheck posted of Lorena from the Bachelor, and the more

757
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 2: I've thought about it and the more I've listened to

758
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: different like you know, It's life on Cut was talking

759
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: about it, which I found pretty interesting because they are

760
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: both influencers and kind of seem like everyday people, and

761
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: I found their take on it really interesting. So Britt

762
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 2: was really of the opinion that they crossed the line

763
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: majorly when they posted a video of Lorena allegedly snorting

764
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: what looked like a white substance, and they said across

765
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: the line because this was something that Lorena had not posted,

766
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: This was something that was sent to the page by

767
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 2: someone that was at the party. It was kind of

768
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: a got ya moment. Well, I just say, though, we

769
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: don't know that for sure. I mean, we're all jumping

770
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: to conclusions because initially when I saw it, I thought, Wow,

771
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: somebody's insta story that or someone sent it as a snapchat,

772
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: so we don't know if it was actually yeah, But regardless,

773
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: Lorena didn't publish it, and celeb Spellcheck's amo is usually

774
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: that she will reshare something that an influencer has posted

775
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: themselves and you know, make fun of it or bring

776
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: pull someone into account. So it was interesting to look

777
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: at it with that point of view, because I feel

778
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 2: like that type of content is something that could get

779
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: celebs Spellcheck in trouble. And it is interesting that that

780
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: was posted and then this hiatus has been taken. It's

781
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: such a shame because I feel like she was being

782
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: quite good at moderating the comments and keeping the content fun.

783
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: I mean, apart from the influencer encounts like those were

784
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: so much fun to look at, but I do feel

785
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 2: like they were verging some of them. I think it's

786
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: the drug taking reference. Isn't that there were a few

787
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: that referenced drug taking, And I think that's where if

788
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: you are listening sole Spellcheck, you've got to just not

789
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: include that stuff. But the thing is with Lorena Celeb'spelcheck

790
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: didn't actually accuse her of snorting cocaine, but that is

791
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: the inference that people have got from the video being shared.

792
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: Which is why we wanted to have John Laxon, who

793
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 2: is a Sydney media lawyer on for Laxon and lex

794
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 2: so we can pick his brain about what you can

795
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: and can't post. And a lot of influencers are chucking

796
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: around the word defamation, and I think it's really important

797
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: that we know what defamation is and whether Celeb's Spellcheck

798
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: and other pages like Ossie Influencer Opinions are actually liable. Also,

799
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: are you liable for commenting on this type of information

800
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: because we don't want to get like, no one wants

801
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: to get in trouble for this type of thing. I

802
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: also think it's interesting to talk to John about even

803
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: if something is defamatory or classified as defamation, can you

804
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: actually be taken to court over it? Because most cases

805
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: don't actually go to court. Most things get settled outside

806
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: of court. So I feel like there's a lot of

807
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 2: people who are scared thinking I'm going to be taken

808
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: to court for all my money.

809
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's listen to what John's got to say.

810
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: Amy's personal lawyer.

811
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 6: You get into Harvard Law wit like it's hard.

812
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: So firstly, John, welcome to Outspoken. We are so excited

813
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: to have you on. We've given you a bit of

814
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: a pump up in our previous episode we said you're

815
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: our favorite lawyer going around town.

816
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 6: Thank you, very very gracious of you.

817
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: Sophi keeps calling you my personal lawyer, and we must

818
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 2: say that obviously we have Well, you've represented me in

819
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: the past, but you're not my personal lawyer. Unfortunately.

820
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 6: Well, I'm very honored to have been your lawyer. Thank you.

821
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: So we should probably get into it.

822
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: We've got you on the show to speak about Instagram

823
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 2: page celeb spellcheck. So a number of influencers who have

824
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: featured on this page have accused it of being defamatory. Now,

825
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: can you firstly explain what exactly is defamation?

826
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 6: Well, simply, defamation is a taught and a tort is

827
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 6: a civil wrong. So with defamation, it's a civil wrong

828
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 6: that involves conduct that harms another person's reputation. So the

829
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 6: law recognizes that individuals have the right not to have

830
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 6: their reputation unjustly Sully, I can use that quaint expression,

831
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 6: and so law provides a mechanism to seek remedies where

832
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 6: that occurs through the payment of compensation. But it's not

833
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 6: just about whether a person feels that've been defamed or

834
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 6: whether the other person intended to defame them. The test

835
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 6: is what the ordinary and reasonable person would think. So

836
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 6: what defamation laws seek to do is to balance the

837
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 6: competing rights, the tensions between the rights of members of

838
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 6: the public to protect their reputation, the rights to exercise

839
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 6: freedom of speech and to access accurate and true information.

840
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 6: So the course obviously recognize the importance of freedom of speech,

841
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 6: although you've probably been surprised to learn that that right

842
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 6: isn't expressly legislated in Australian law, unlike in the US Constitution.

843
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 6: And then there are a variety of defenses available to

844
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 6: a defamation clim The most widely known one is the

845
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 6: defense of truth or justification as it's sometimes called. You know,

846
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 6: there are several others also, public interest reporting in the

847
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 6: public interest and efectiveness of the current defamation provisions are

848
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 6: currently under question. There's a debate about that. A new

849
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 6: South Wales has already legislated a new public interest defense

850
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 6: but yet to come into force. Now whether that's a

851
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 6: good thing or not, well, there's a debate about that

852
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 6: going on at the mind. That's a long way of

853
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 6: answering what defamation is.

854
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: In regards to this page, celeb spell check, they've been

855
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: known to share spelling errors that influencers have put up,

856
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 2: but the content has gone much further in recent weeks

857
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: and people have seen posts such as different influencers or

858
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: reality stars looking as if they're allegedly snorting a white substance.

859
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 2: If they're sharing something like that that is a video

860
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: that has been put out there or that they have received.

861
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: One would assume that, wow, we can see what's going on.

862
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: Maybe that page could use the truth defense. But is

863
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: that something that they could use or is it a

864
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 2: bit more difficult than just saying we've got a video

865
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: of this person doing this this act.

866
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 6: Well, it's a bit more difficult. I mean, it's a

867
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 6: fine line, and you know, it's a question on which

868
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 6: rigual minds can differ. I mean, it would be hard

869
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 6: to make the suggestion that an image that seems to

870
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 6: show someone snorting lines of cocaine was a harmless joke.

871
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 6: The person who posts the image knows is going to

872
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 6: be consequences, especially if the person the influencer is unaware

873
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 6: that they're being recorded at the time, so you know,

874
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 6: they're on denis And depending on the circumstances, there might

875
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 6: be defenses to posting that like truth. But I'll say

876
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 6: more on that later. But there are difficulties in establishing truth.

877
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 6: So whether something's harmless fun or not, it typically comes

878
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 6: back to the question of what the ordinary and reasonable

879
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 6: person would think, because that's the test under the defamation

880
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 6: and that depends on the context of the publication. So

881
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 6: you might remember it came up as an issue a

882
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 6: few years ago in the Chris Kenny ABC litigation where

883
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 6: the Chaser group they made a video depicting Chris Kenny

884
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 6: being intimate with the dog. The ABC argued that it

885
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 6: was clearly satirical no reasonable person could I think it

886
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 6: was suggested that what was the subject of the humorous

887
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 6: video was actually mister Kenny being intimate with a dog,

888
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 6: and there was an initial hearing with the parties in

889
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 6: which the court accepted that argument, but it left open

890
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 6: the claim that the ABC was suggesting that mister Kenny

891
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 6: was as bad as someone who might have sex with

892
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 6: the dog. Now that case it ultimately settled, so we'll

893
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 6: never know what a court would have found at the

894
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 6: ottimate hearing. Most and you know, most of these matters

895
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 6: do settle.

896
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, now you touched on some of the reforms that

897
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: are happening at the moment with the defamation laws in Australia.

898
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: What is it that we can aspect from the new laws.

899
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 2: I know it's a bit of a slow process when

900
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: laws come into place.

901
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, to answer your last question, for I think

902
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 6: the law is always evolving whether it's in the form

903
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 6: of new legislation, proposal legislation, or because judges continue to

904
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 6: interpret the law and appliant to new situations like social media.

905
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 6: So you know, I think it's arguable whether or not

906
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 6: the law who's caught up with the social media age

907
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 6: a large well. The large media organizations often cry that

908
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 6: defamation law is no longer sit for purpose because obviously

909
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 6: they don't like paying out large sums of money when

910
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 6: they are on the wrong end of it. They're obviously

911
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 6: going to say that they're the defendant and they want

912
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 6: it to be as difficult as possible for people to

913
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 6: see them. But they will a lot of power, and

914
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 6: social media is obviously the mentally powerful and it can

915
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 6: be harmful. So untrue things that are published online obviously

916
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 6: have the potential to ruin people's lives, and that's why

917
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 6: they can sue when they are faded, and most people

918
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 6: would think, well, they should be able to So there

919
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 6: needs to be a level of responsibility on the part

920
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 6: of large media organizations and social media platforms. And I

921
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 6: can tell you from experience with trying to get an

922
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 6: outcome from a social media platform, doing so inevitably results

923
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 6: in the facebooks and the Instagrams and the Googles telling

924
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 6: you to talk to the hand. So the changes that

925
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 6: have recently been introduced by the Defamation Amendment Act, they

926
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 6: aren't specifically related to the social media age to my mind.

927
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 6: They're actually primarily more about making life easier for large

928
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 6: media companies to defend deformation actions. So two of the

929
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 6: key changes to the Defamation Act, they've introduced a threshold

930
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 6: question of serious harm in the new section ten A

931
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 6: and so serious harm is going to be an element

932
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 6: in a deformation case. And there's also a new public

933
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 6: interest defense. Both of those that have been borrowed from

934
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 6: the UK Deformation Act to a certain degree. But the

935
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 6: problem is, you know, what constitutes serious harm isn't defined.

936
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 6: So it's clear the objective of the Serious Harm Amendment

937
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 6: is to remove from the court system for the trivial,

938
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 6: you know, the backyard type, non mass media disputes, neighborhood

939
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 6: disputes involving name calling or spats on social media, where

940
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 6: there's limited actual effect on somebody's reputation. So the proposal,

941
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 6: the idea behind it is that this can be determined

942
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 6: early on in the proceedings, or a threshold question to

943
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 6: weed out trivial cases. But the problem with adding, however

944
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 6: well intentioned, it is, it's still conceived because firstly, those

945
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 6: types of trivial cases were more the exception than the rule.

946
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 6: I mean, it's an awfully expensive thing to do, as

947
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 6: anyone who's been involved in litigation knows, to commence defamation proceedings,

948
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 6: so most people don't do it. You just don't do

949
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 6: it over something that's inconsequential. You suck it up. And secondly,

950
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 6: the threshold question really has the potential just to delay things,

951
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 6: to close it up, and to increase costs by requiring

952
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 6: this additional preliminary hearing at the beginning of the process,

953
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 6: increasing costs, you know, delays for the amount of on calls

954
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 6: and so defendants Media company, it would be lovingness because

955
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 6: it's an opportunity to make a plaintiff spend some cash

956
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 6: on getting over the first bar the threshold question as

957
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 6: to whether or not the defamation constitutes serious harm. There's

958
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 6: also a new proposed public interest defense under Section twenty

959
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 6: nine A, and as the name suggests, that's intended to

960
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 6: make reporting in the public interests easier. Now that's not

961
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 6: just material. It's interesting to the public it's more going

962
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 6: to involve, for example, reporting which reveals corruption in public office,

963
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 6: things of that nature. So the amended is intended to

964
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 6: address an alleged gap that emerged in the current legislation,

965
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 6: and that being section thirty of the Defamation Act, which

966
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 6: has the defensive qualified privilege, And so it should make

967
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 6: it easier for media organizations to defend such reporting. And

968
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 6: it requires that the defendant established that the issue was

969
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 6: of public interest, and that the defendant reasonably believe that

970
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 6: it was in the public interest. But you see the

971
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 6: extent to which a matter published is of public interest

972
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 6: and whether it's reasonable in the circumstances. So therefore, publish

973
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 6: something about a person, it already comes within the existing

974
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 6: defense of qualified privilege in section thirty of the existing

975
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 6: Defamation and large media organizations, despite the fact that they're

976
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 6: crying now and they're agitating to change, they've actually successfully

977
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 6: argued section thirty defenses. So why do we need to change.

978
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 6: You know, I'm not Convitweeden, Why would you want to

979
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 6: justify greater protections for journalism that's not substantially true and

980
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 6: not reasonable to publish in the first place. Because of

981
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 6: it is then the defender will always have the defense

982
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 6: of truth. If a journalist does have a reasonable belief

983
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 6: that publishing a matter is in the public interest, then

984
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 6: the you and your listeners as the objective reasonable person.

985
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 6: They might also think that the conduct and public the

986
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 6: matter was reasonable, and the case will fail. And another

987
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 6: weakness with the proposed amendment the new section twenty nine

988
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 6: er is that the public interest defense can't be defeated

989
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 6: where the publication is malicious, whereas under the section thirty

990
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 6: defense that qualified privilege it can. So I see that

991
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 6: as a problem as well. Hope that wasn't too long

992
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 6: with no.

993
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 2: That was so interesting? Could even what you were mentioning

994
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: in terms of just how expensive it all is, because

995
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: we've seen celebrities like Rebel Wilson and Jeffrey Rush awarded

996
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: massive payouts recently after suing media outlets. Do you think

997
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: this is going to be something where we are seeing

998
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 2: influencers take action against online publications because they do have

999
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 2: the money or is it Yeah, We'll just interject because

1000
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: what you were talking about before is obviously there's large

1001
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: media companies with a lot of money to defend these claims.

1002
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 2: But in this situation with this online platform celub spellcheck.

1003
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: They have the lesser power here because it's just one

1004
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: individu or who doesn't have much money coming up against

1005
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: a number of wealthy influencers who potentially do have the money.

1006
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: To take her to court. So, Yeah, as you're.

1007
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 2: Saying, Amy, do you think John, that this is a

1008
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: sign of things to come that influencers will be successfully

1009
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: suing outlets or Instagram accounts like this?

1010
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 6: Well, potentially not necessarily. What the proposed model amendments seek

1011
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 6: to replaces the current statutory cap of four hundred and

1012
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 6: twenty one thousand dollars, intend to replace it with the

1013
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 6: scale of general damages so that only aggravated damages can

1014
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 6: be awarded over the scale, and aggravated damages are a

1015
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 6: form of additional compensation additional damages which are only awarded

1016
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 6: where the defendant's conduct lacks bonifides whether it's otherwise improper

1017
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 6: or unreasonable, and the plaintiff has suffered as a consequence.

1018
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 6: But the key not to lose sight of here is

1019
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 6: that the awards for damages in the Bower and Rebel,

1020
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 6: Wilson case and the Rush cases, though it is substantially

1021
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 6: because most of it with subtangible economical lots in the

1022
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 6: form of worked that those two actors missed out on.

1023
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 6: You know, it's no secret they're internationally famous and they

1024
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 6: earn huge amounts of money when they get gigs on films,

1025
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 6: So missing out on a role can mean losses and

1026
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 6: the minions. So for me, organization or anyone who's going

1027
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 6: to defame them obviously need to think carefully before they do.

1028
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 6: And as a general anyway, whether it's right or not,

1029
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 6: in most areas of law, or the more you earn

1030
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 6: if you're wronged, the more you're going to get in damages.

1031
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 6: So if I, either Rebel Wilson or Jeffrey Rush had

1032
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 6: sipt over in the supermarket, for example, and had me

1033
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 6: not at work due to the negligence on the part

1034
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 6: of the supermarket, it had suit for damages. They would

1035
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 6: have received substantial amounts for that as well. So the

1036
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 6: economic loss component will always be relative to the income.

1037
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 6: Now you might think that that's not necessarily fair, but

1038
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 6: that's just the way the system is, and let's not

1039
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 6: forget that. In Grebel Wilson's case, she was originally awarded

1040
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 6: for a half million dollars that was reduced on a

1041
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 6: peal of six hundred thousand dollars, so in the context

1042
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 6: of what they earn in their every day life. Ordinarily

1043
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 6: what was awarded was not necessarily disproportionate, but was actually

1044
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 6: pretty consistent with the common law. And despite those massive awards,

1045
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 6: it's pretty hard to feel too much sympathy for large

1046
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 6: media organizations, which, let's face it, they would deduct their

1047
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 6: defamation expenses as across of doing business unlike you were.

1048
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 6: Right obviously, so, and that just reinforces that what I

1049
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 6: said before about mitigation. It's extremely expensive. You generally have

1050
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 6: to have very deep pockets to sue a large media organization.

1051
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 6: So if you've got wealthy people suing for defamation and

1052
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 6: showing that they've suffered significant economic loss, then yes, we

1053
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 6: could continue to see large awards of damaging. So aside

1054
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 6: from what you get for economical loss, you can also

1055
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 6: get what's called general damages for things like her and humiliation.

1056
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 6: But that's got a cap on it. So, as I

1057
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 6: said before, currently it's four hundred and twenty one thousand dollars.

1058
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 6: Under the new provision, it's going to go down to

1059
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 6: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Now, some might think

1060
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 6: that that what you can be awarded in a defamation case.

1061
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 6: Humiliation is actually well and truly with up areas of

1062
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 6: the law now as you know, I mean, I ad

1063
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 6: for a number of women against their former employers in

1064
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 6: things such as sexual arrassment matters, and even in circumstances

1065
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 6: where you know women have been subjected to serious, even

1066
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 6: criminal offenses of the sexual nature. In a civil claim

1067
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 6: of sexual harassment, you're doing really well. It's a court

1068
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,479
Speaker 6: awards you anything in the region of even one hundred

1069
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 6: and fifty thousand. So that's an interesting question too, the

1070
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 6: weighing up whether it's appropriate that someone can get hundreds

1071
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 6: of thousands of dollars for being accused of being a

1072
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 6: liar in a defamation case, whereas somebody who's subjected to

1073
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 6: a serious sexual harassment claim which their employers liable, only

1074
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 6: gets a fraction of that when they win. I'm not

1075
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 6: saying one should come down, I'm saying the other should

1076
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 6: go out.

1077
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 2: In these cases, people are obviously having to pay people

1078
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 2: like yourself to represent them.

1079
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: Are these costs included?

1080
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: Are they having to then output money to you that's

1081
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: taken off what they would have got from the court.

1082
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 6: Typically, when if you succeed, you're awarded cost that's never

1083
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 6: one hundred percent of your cost. Well, it can be

1084
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 6: in certain limited circumstances, but yeah, you actually have to

1085
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 6: unless the lawyers prepared to run a matter on spec

1086
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 6: then the client has to pay for expensive lawyers, counsel,

1087
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 6: often senior counsel, as well as their own solicitors to

1088
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 6: run the case and get them out of the court.

1089
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 6: So that's enormously See do you.

1090
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: Think pages like celeb, spellcheck and other anonymous accounts because

1091
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: they are anonymous, does it make them harder to prosecute?

1092
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 6: It does? I mean the very first question that you've

1093
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 6: identified is what is the identity of the account holder?

1094
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 6: That's working that out even a simple task, So that

1095
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 6: of itself makes them harder to prosecute. And then you've

1096
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 6: got to work out whether in fact you've been defined

1097
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 6: obviously always, but then a further threshold issue is are

1098
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 6: you suing somebody who's actually got assets? You know, the

1099
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 6: old proverbial all you end up suing the proverbial man

1100
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 6: of straw if I can use that quite old, you know,

1101
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 6: And so assuming that you've identified the person, then you

1102
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 6: need to be absolutely sure that you've been defined and

1103
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 6: that what they've published is defamatory and untrue and not

1104
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 6: just a pharto if you're doing something that you actually did,

1105
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 6: because then the truth defense will arise quite clearly. So

1106
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 6: you know, if a publisher is going to be able

1107
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 6: to rely easily, going to be able to rely on

1108
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 6: the truth defense, then a person would be crazy to sue.

1109
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 6: In decimation, you only need to ask certain people form

1110
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 6: of polish. In Craig Thompson, you might have all about

1111
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 6: that photos are probably less likely to be sued over,

1112
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 6: more likely to arise where anonymous allegations against individuals are published.

1113
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 6: It's more difficult to prove an allegation than it is

1114
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 6: to prove a photo, because a photo typically speaks for

1115
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 6: itself unless it's adopted photo, as was the case in

1116
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 6: the Paul En handsOn matter many years ago. And as

1117
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 6: I said before, you know, a further issue is what

1118
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 6: if the person operating you account has no assets? What

1119
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 6: if it's a teenager out of their bedroom. There's no

1120
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 6: point seeing somebody's got no assets because you're not going

1121
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 6: to be able to get anything out of it when

1122
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 6: you do so, unless you're a person with so much

1123
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 6: money that you can sue for the principle of it,

1124
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 6: and there's not many of those. It's really something that

1125
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 6: a person contemplating suing and declamation needs to consider along

1126
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:19,919
Speaker 6: and hard before doing so.

1127
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: So it sounds like these influencers don't really have much

1128
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: of a case against celeb spellcheck when you put all

1129
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 2: of those things into context like that.

1130
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean, the platforms aren't ever going to

1131
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 6: volunteer who's behind it, so you know, you need to

1132
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 6: use court procedures to compel the platforms to tell you not,

1133
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 6: such as preliminary discovery. That's only recently started happening in

1134
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 6: the last few years, and it's really difficult. When you're

1135
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 6: up against massive multinational platforms like Google or Facebook, they'll

1136
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 6: typically resist any such application. So then you've got an

1137
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 6: initial fight with a judge, and an initial expensive fight

1138
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 6: before a judge, a really expensive fight where again you

1139
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 6: need to lawyer up, get your solicitor and your council,

1140
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 6: and sometimes seeing your council, and then at the end

1141
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 6: of it it turns out to be somebody with no assets,

1142
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 6: then there's no point going any further. But you've already

1143
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 6: as a client, you've dropped a large amount of money

1144
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 6: just to get just to ascertain somebody's identity.

1145
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 2: Just lastly, I feel like this is a good question

1146
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: for people listening that might be engaging with pages like this,

1147
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 2: because often people jump on social media and they'll comment

1148
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: under scandalous posts and think that maybe what they write

1149
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 2: doesn't have any consequences. What would you say to people

1150
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 2: who are commenting on posts put up by pages like

1151
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 2: celeb spell.

1152
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 6: Check, Well, it does have consequences. That's the current state

1153
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 6: of the law. That might change because the matter I'm

1154
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 6: talking about is currently on appeal at High Court. But

1155
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 6: you might remember remember Dylan Voler, the ABC report about

1156
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 6: the Northern Tertiary Youth detention centers on a four corners probe.

1157
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 6: So there's the case of Voiler against Nationwide News. It

1158
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 6: was in the New Southwale Supreme Court and in that

1159
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 6: case Justice Rothman found that Nationwide News Australian news channel

1160
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 6: on setbax me year, they could be held responsible in

1161
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 6: defamation for comments to links that were posted on their

1162
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 6: Facebook pages. So the pages attracted lots of defamatory comments

1163
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 6: by people trolling mister Bollom, but that was sufficient to

1164
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 6: establish the publication element needed to prove defamation. So by

1165
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 6: allowing comments, by inviting people to like or to comment

1166
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 6: on posts, the court found that each organization participated and

1167
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 6: was instrumental in bringing about publication of defamatory matter, and

1168
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 6: so they were liable. It didn't matter that they themselves

1169
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 6: hadn't written the trolling comments. They were liable for having

1170
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 6: the the sites from the first place. So I went

1171
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 6: on appeal to the Court of Appeal. The Court of

1172
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 6: Appeal agreed with the first instance judge, and that was

1173
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 6: on the basis that the media companies knew that by

1174
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 6: having publicly viewable Facebook pages, an outcome of having an

1175
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 6: operating page was that any third party comment would also

1176
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 6: be published to any Facebook user and they're responsible for it.

1177
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 6: So once again the media organizations are screening about that.

1178
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 6: It's on appeal to the High Court, and that appeal

1179
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 6: hasn't been heard as yet, so once it is, that'll

1180
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 6: sort out that issue once and for all.

1181
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 2: We sort of touched on the changing legislation, and there's

1182
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: been a lot of news around the fact that there's

1183
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: new proposed online trolling laws which the government will use

1184
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: to well, they've said they want to use it to

1185
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: unmasked trolls. Do you think this is actually going to work,

1186
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: because from what you've said, it's very hard to track

1187
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 2: down these people, and it seems quite pointless to take

1188
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 2: someone to court for sending a trolling comment. I mean,

1189
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 2: is it, well, someone who doesn't have money as well. Yeah,

1190
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 2: it just seems a bit baseless.

1191
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 6: Well, there's a bill, it's called the Online Safety Bill.

1192
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 6: It's currently before the Senate, and that bill establishes rules

1193
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 6: around what constitutes cyberbullying for harassment, and it establishes an

1194
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 6: e Safety Commissioner, and the e Safety Commissioner can issue

1195
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 6: removal notices the social media services like Facebook, Insta and

1196
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 6: messaging services and also users of the services like your men.

1197
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 6: So a failure to comply with a notice by removing

1198
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 6: offending comment could result in a fine. So that's not

1199
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 6: the case at the moment, but that's what's proposed under

1200
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 6: the bill. And the bill allows the Commissioner to order

1201
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 6: internet services social media services bike Instagram to also provide

1202
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 6: the entity, say, the identity of the end user if

1203
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 6: that identity is relevant to the operation of the act.

1204
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 6: So that change may very well affect the owners of

1205
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 6: accounts like Celet's spell check. If things are posted on

1206
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 6: their accounts which are menacing, harassing, or offensive under the

1207
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 6: wording of a proposed bill, or that are otherwise i'most

1208
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 6: under the act because the account owners could then potentially

1209
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 6: be identified and find by the Safety Commissioner. And so obviously,

1210
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 6: if that happens, that's that cats alide on what I

1211
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 6: previously said about the difficulty of bringing a preliminary discovery

1212
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 6: applicassion to actually find out who it is that you're

1213
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 6: certain that might all be revealed for free by the

1214
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 6: taking conditioner, but it's not. It hasn't passed us yet,

1215
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 6: so let's wait and see whether it does.

1216
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 2: Says that some of the fines for social media companies

1217
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 2: are up to half a million dollars in the case

1218
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 2: if they're suing, as you say, someone who might be

1219
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 2: sitting in their home a teenager. What happens in the

1220
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 2: case of those sort of fines, They just take them

1221
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 2: for all their worth and then that's it. Well, they

1222
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 2: would be asked to pay the fine. I assume they'd Okay, sorry,

1223
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: I'm answering the question for you, John, but might be incorrect.

1224
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, yeah, I think that's right. I mean,

1225
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 6: just because there is the potential for well, I mean

1226
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 6: it's fine for corporations, social media companies and up to

1227
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 6: five hundred and fifty five thous but individuals of one

1228
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 6: hundred and eleven thousand dollars. So I mean there's the

1229
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 6: potential for an individual who like you know, as yea,

1230
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 6: as we all know it could be but even know efforts,

1231
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 6: they could be fine whether they get find that amount

1232
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 6: or whether in fact they are fined, and so whether

1233
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 6: a fine and that amount is imposed, that'll be a

1234
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 6: matter for the judge. And if somebody presented the court

1235
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 6: and said, well, we just we don't have the money

1236
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 6: and we're acting in you know, we thought we were

1237
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 6: acting in the public interest and there was no malice,

1238
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 6: and et cetera, et cetera. Well, who knows the same

1239
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 6: sorts of matters that you could raise in mitigation that

1240
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 6: you wouldn't any in any other sort of criminal manner.

1241
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 6: For example, it's still a plant.

1242
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, John, You've be an absolute legend. I

1243
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 2: think everyone is going to absolutely love this episode, So

1244
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us.

1245
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 6: Oh, thank you, Amy and Sophie. I really enjoyed it

1246
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:44,479
Speaker 6: such fun. Hope it helped.

1247
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 3: It is useful that.

1248
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 2: Was so interesting and I think it will be helpful

1249
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: for a lot of people moving forward having this discussion.

1250
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 2: We also wanted to say a big thank you to

1251
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 2: John Laxon from lax and Lex Lawyers for joining us

1252
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 2: on the show. He is an absolute legend and I've

1253
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 2: got to say and personal experience, I would highly recommend

1254
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 2: John to anybody out there who is looking for a

1255
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 2: media lawyer because he does go above and beyond. This

1256
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: is future Sophie here now. As of Sunday afternoon, Celebs

1257
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 2: Spelchick is back up and running, and for the past

1258
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 2: few days she has been teasing us on her Insta

1259
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 2: stories with a few cryptic posts.

1260
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: Now.

1261
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 2: On Saturday, she posted a photo of Hill's Star or

1262
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 2: Drina Partridge and captioned it or Drina crying in a

1263
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 2: Halloween costume. She also posted a photo of Sophia Richie

1264
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: with a new boyfriend that literally looks exactly like Victorian

1265
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 2: premier Dan Andrews.

1266
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: In her bio.

1267
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: She also changed her emoji to a pen and pencil,

1268
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 2: with some thinking that maybe it means she's either going

1269
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: to be writing more gossip stuff or that she is

1270
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 2: going to be having her very own column in a newspaper,

1271
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 2: and on Sunday afternoon, she posted a photo of Hillstar

1272
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 2: Spencer Pratt and Heidi Montag and it shows Heidi holding

1273
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 2: a book which says you can profit from a monetary crisis.

1274
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 2: Many believe this is a cryptic way of saying she

1275
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 2: will now be making money from the account, which personally

1276
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: I'm all for. The majority of posts have now been unarchived.

1277
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 2: The most noticeable which are missing are the photo of

1278
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 2: ex Bachelor contestant Lorena allegedly snorting what appeared to be

1279
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 2: a white substance, and also the post she did about

1280
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 2: beck Judd when she allegedly dropped pajamas off at a

1281
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 2: local charity store that she was supposed to be promoting online.

1282
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: All I can say is I'm so excited to see

1283
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 2: what comes next. Well, I think that's all we've got

1284
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 2: time for today. We do hope you guys did enjoy

1285
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 2: our different episode. You have to let us know if

1286
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 2: you enjoyed having some small interviews.

1287
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: In there today.

1288
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 2: I feel like we should all be a little bit

1289
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 2: smarter from today's episode as well going into our mondays.

1290
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: I do feel smarter, And.

1291
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 2: If you do have time, we'd love if you could

1292
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 2: leave us a five star review because this does take

1293
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 2: up quite a.

1294
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: Bit of our time.

1295
01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: And make sure you tell your friends about the podcast

1296
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 2: because it's actually really interesting. Because when people join our community,

1297
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 2: we get them to tell us how they've heard about

1298
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 2: the podcast, and we had an excellent one this week.

1299
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: Someone said that our cousin is dating their cousin and

1300
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed that connection.

1301
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 1: That's how small Adelaide is.

1302
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: Could you also share about it on your Instagram stories?

1303
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe we should be spreading the.

1304
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: Word of what defamation actually is. You sound so desperate

1305
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: in the book. I am being desperate. Please share it