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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of the phrase beauty sick? What

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Speaker 1: does it mean to be beauty sick? How are we

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Speaker 1: teaching our kids about their bodies? Today? We talk everything

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Speaker 1: body image related as a precursor for a big conversation

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Speaker 1: this weekend with Professor Renee Ngeln. Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions Every day on

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Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Causon. Honey,

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Speaker 1: this one hits home pretty close for us seven girls

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Speaker 1: in the house, you and our six daughters and the

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Speaker 1: issue of body image.

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Speaker 2: I haven't read the book, but after today's interview, I

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Speaker 2: am really it's intrigued to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, beauty sick. How the cultural obsession with appearance hurts

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Speaker 1: girls and women. This is a book that I read

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Speaker 1: several years ago. I would say it's in my top

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Speaker 1: under top ten books of all time.

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Speaker 2: I think your top ten includes.

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Speaker 1: Like forty books. No, no, this is like if we

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Speaker 1: were to throw out books from my library, this would

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Speaker 1: be one that I would say, it sits on the shelf,

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Speaker 1: It's not going anywhere. This one must stay. It would

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Speaker 1: be one of the last ones that I'd get rid of.

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Speaker 1: It's such a profoundly good book. A couple of our

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Speaker 1: daughters have read it now, and like you said, this

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Speaker 1: is one that I reckon you would just you'll gobble

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Speaker 1: it up. Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln, Northwest University Academic. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to play the whole interview on Saturday. It's

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Speaker 1: one for anyone who cares about the body image stuff

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Speaker 1: to check out. But I just wanted to share three

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Speaker 1: things that she said in the interview that I think

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Speaker 1: is super important. The first thing that she said, and

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Speaker 1: I'd really love to get your reaction to this, was

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Speaker 1: I was talking to her about the idea of being

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Speaker 1: beauty sick. What does it mean to be beauty sick?

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Speaker 1: And she raised this idea of having the mirror, rather

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Speaker 1: than in front of you in the living room or

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, having the mirror in your head.

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Speaker 3: We've gone from having a culture that's always looking at women,

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Speaker 3: that's always commenting on how they look. We've gone from that,

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Speaker 3: from that coming from the outside to a point where

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Speaker 3: we've internalized it and we do that to ourselves. So

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Speaker 3: I try to stay away from academic jargon, but there's

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Speaker 3: a term that I always need to use, even though

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Speaker 3: it's jargon, which is self objectification.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So the idea is if the world treats you like

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Speaker 3: an object long enough and with enough intensity, that eventually

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Speaker 3: you see yourself that way. Right. You don't need to

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Speaker 3: be looking in the mirror because it's in your head,

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Speaker 3: and so you're always monitoring how you look. You're always aware.

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Speaker 3: It's distracting. It's distressing, right. It crops up in inopportune times.

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Speaker 3: It keeps you from living the life that's more consistent

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Speaker 3: with your values. So that's what I mean when I

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Speaker 3: say beauty sick, is that you've got that mirror stuck

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Speaker 3: in your head and it's causing you trouble and it's

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Speaker 3: not your fault. That's always the thing I want to say.

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Speaker 3: This is not something wrong with individual girls and women.

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Speaker 3: It's something wrong with our culture.

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Speaker 1: Something wrong with our culture self objectification. She speaks so vividly.

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Speaker 1: These words feel like they whack me between the eyes.

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Speaker 2: I was having a conversation with a group of teenage

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Speaker 2: girls recently, and they were acknowledging the idea of having

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Speaker 2: two different social media accounts. One they call their spam

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Speaker 2: account and the other one was their official site for

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Speaker 2: one of a better word, And as adults in the room,

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Speaker 2: a few of us were like, but I don't understand

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Speaker 2: why do you need a spam account.

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Speaker 1: And there's all that extra work you've got to do

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Speaker 1: as well er.

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Speaker 2: Percent, And they said, the spam account is just for

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Speaker 2: a handful of people that they trust that they can

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Speaker 2: kind of share anything. They don't have to filter it.

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Speaker 2: They don't have to make sure that you know they're

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Speaker 2: centered in the frame, or that their hair has done

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Speaker 2: a certain way, or they're wearing the right clothes. There's

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Speaker 2: no filtering going in there. They just put the photos

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Speaker 2: there that they like. Their main account requires so much.

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Speaker 1: Ex curation and yeah, care.

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Speaker 2: Care factor before they'll even post a photo, let alone

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Speaker 2: post multiples. And when we kind of dug a little deeper,

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Speaker 2: they started showing us the kinds of photos they'd put

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Speaker 2: on their spam account. Well, they're just your everyday photos.

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Speaker 2: They're having fun, they're eating food with a friend, they've

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of wrapped themselves up in a scarf

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Speaker 2: because it's cold. But oh no, I definitely couldn't put

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Speaker 2: that on my main account. And so when you listen

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Speaker 2: to what she's saying this idea that the mirror is

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Speaker 2: actually in our heads where we're going through that process

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Speaker 2: seeing yourself with as without anyone else's input.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's self monitoring. It's insane, it's exhausting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah totally. During the interview, we talk about a couple

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Speaker 1: of things that we're not going to play now, like

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Speaker 1: TV women who have to wear something different every time

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Speaker 1: and still get absolutely mocked mercily for any of their

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Speaker 1: clothing choices, whereas a guy like Karl Stefanovic wears the

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Speaker 1: same suit and tie every day for a year and

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Speaker 1: nobody says a thing like you said exhausting. The amount

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Speaker 1: of effort that goes into appearance, there is something wrong

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Speaker 1: with the culture.

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Speaker 2: Having been on TV, you will have experienced this. How

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Speaker 2: long does it take you to do hair and makeup?

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Speaker 1: So I'm sure that Ali Langton won't mind me saying this,

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Speaker 1: but on parental guidance, she is in the studio, so

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Speaker 1: we'll do a full day of recording. Usually starts around

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Speaker 1: about eight thirty nine o'clock and it finishes at about

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Speaker 1: six thirty seven pm. Ali has to be at the

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Speaker 1: studio for seven because hair and makeup takes that long.

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Speaker 1: And Ali is naturally beautiful. She doesn't quite unquote need

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Speaker 1: any of that, but that's what TV requires, that's what's necessary.

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Speaker 1: So she'll be there from seven. I rock up at

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Speaker 1: eight fifteen and I'm in the studio thirty.

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Speaker 2: That's because you're just naturally beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's got no no. I mean, I think it's because

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Speaker 1: there's nothing that they can do about how I look,

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Speaker 1: so they just shrug their shoulders and say, wow, that

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Speaker 1: just is what it is.

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Speaker 2: But this is what I'm talking about. There is such

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Speaker 2: an unfair.

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Speaker 1: The beauty standard is completely different from meditation women. Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: And Renee's point, the self monitoring, the self objectification. If

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Speaker 1: the world treats you like that long enough, you start

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Speaker 1: to treat yourself like that. It's what value my bringing

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Speaker 1: to the world based on my physical appearance.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how long ago this story came up,

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Speaker 2: but Pamela Anderson hit the news because she has gone

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Speaker 2: out in public. Yeah, without maker.

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Speaker 1: It was like four or five months ago or something

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I saw it on the jew Barrymore

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Speaker 2: Show and Drew did exactly the same thing. She came

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Speaker 2: on and when I very first saw it, not knowing

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Speaker 2: what it was. I'm like, Wow, what's wrong with Drew?

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Speaker 2: She looks really unwell, you're right, okay, And then obviously

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Speaker 2: watched it and start to see it unfold and she

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Speaker 2: started pulling out all of her hair extensions and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and just the acknowledgment that there's just this such a

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Speaker 2: huge expectation on women to look a certain way, no

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Speaker 2: matter how old they are. And as you go down

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Speaker 2: the street, I'm watching more and more older women who

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Speaker 2: you can tell have had work done, like multiple thousands

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Speaker 2: and thousands of dollars of work, because there's this emphasis

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Speaker 2: that they have to keep up an image.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just.

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Speaker 2: Again, I just come back to that word exhausting. I

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Speaker 2: just feel exhausted thinking about the effort that's required to

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Speaker 2: keep up with this image.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I felt like this conversation was so important.

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Speaker 1: On Saturday, we'll talk about what this means for parents

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Speaker 1: who are raising girls specifically, but also for boys who

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Speaker 1: may unknowingly expect that the females that they spend time

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Speaker 1: with will be spending additional time on their appearance because

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Speaker 1: that's the expectation. There's a handful of other things that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share. I had several audio grabs from

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Speaker 1: the interview, but because time is getting away from us already,

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Speaker 1: after the break, I want to get really practical, because

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Speaker 1: this is the podcast that offers real parenting solutions every day.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to hear what Renee has

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Speaker 1: to say about how to send positive and uplifting messages

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Speaker 1: about bodies to your kids. Okay, Kylie, Renee and I

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Speaker 1: were talking about the concept of what it is to

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Speaker 1: be lady like. Should we be teaching girls to be

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Speaker 1: lady like based on these issues? Here's what she said.

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Speaker 3: I find that whole phrase really problematic because what you're

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Speaker 3: teaching your girls when you say that is stay small, right,

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Speaker 3: don't take up space, don't move, don't learn to use

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Speaker 3: your body, don't stretch it, don't trust it. Instead, from

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Speaker 3: the beginning, think of your body in terms of how

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Speaker 3: it looks to other people. Does it look appropriate, does

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Speaker 3: it look modest? If you want them to look modest,

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Speaker 3: then put them in short so they can move however

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Speaker 3: they want. Right, And when you look at infants, I

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Speaker 3: guess when they're a little older they start to crawl.

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Speaker 3: It's actually quite hard for a lot of babies to

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Speaker 3: crawl in skirts and dresses, and even that is something

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Speaker 3: we don't think about. I mean, just imagine it. Imagine

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Speaker 3: now trying to crill in a dress versus pair of

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Speaker 3: pants or a pair of shorts. So, how we dress

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Speaker 3: girls in such a way that requires constant fussing and monitoring,

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Speaker 3: it has a real impact on how they grow up

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Speaker 3: to feel about their bodies.

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Speaker 2: I wish I was a part of this conversation. This

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Speaker 2: is just crazy. I've never thought about it like this,

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Speaker 2: but I love that idea that we teach our girls

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Speaker 2: to stay small bodies, to not take up space. Holy smokes,

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Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, like, honestly, my mind is exploding just

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Speaker 2: listening to her talk and the acknowledgment that in that

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Speaker 2: one phrase, we've taught them that their bodies are fragile. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: when you think of a lady like I think of

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Speaker 2: tea parties and China cups, and I think of fragility.

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Speaker 2: And yet when we have a boy, where so telling

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Speaker 2: them to use those bodies and use every muscle in

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Speaker 2: their bodies and climb trees and take risks and stretch

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Speaker 2: and grow. And yet that's what we're expecting our girls,

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Speaker 2: and we wonder why we've got such a big divide.

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Speaker 1: So much that I want to say right now, but

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Speaker 1: that's actually a perfect segue to the last thing that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share, which is what messages should we

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Speaker 1: be sending to our children, male and female about their bodies.

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Speaker 3: I think especially for young children, because they're learning to

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Speaker 3: use their bodies. Right, So encourage them to think about

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Speaker 3: their bodies not from this objectified perspective, not from how

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Speaker 3: do they look to other people, but from the perspective

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Speaker 3: of what do they do for you? What do they

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Speaker 3: allow you to experience? What do they allow you to feel.

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Speaker 3: I've had some people say to me, oh, that's able

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Speaker 3: as straight, because what if you're disabled. But that's I

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Speaker 3: don't mean that you have to be a marathon runner

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Speaker 3: to appreciate what your body does. Like, our bodies do

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Speaker 3: all kinds of things. Right. They allow for creativity and communication,

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Speaker 3: you know, they allow us to connect with other people.

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Speaker 3: If you have children who are into athletics of any kind, right,

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Speaker 3: they allowed that sort of thing. Bodies are super cool, right,

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Speaker 3: so teach your children about how cool they are, like

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Speaker 3: all the amazing things they can do, and how they

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Speaker 3: can care for their bodies so that they can keep

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Speaker 3: doing cool things, but not so that they can look

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Speaker 3: good to other people. Right, the best advice is to

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Speaker 3: just keep those conversations off the table. I just don't

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Speaker 3: have them.

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Speaker 1: So I hear that, and I think even simpler bodies

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Speaker 1: can hug, bodies can smile.

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Speaker 2: So I a couple of you said that. Literally, I've

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Speaker 2: been sitting here just thinking that comment she made about

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Speaker 2: being accused of being ablest, And as I was sitting

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Speaker 2: there thinking about it, I was like, just the fact

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Speaker 2: that I can smell yeah, you know, homemade cookies, or.

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Speaker 1: I can walk along the beach and enjoy the ocean.

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Speaker 2: My can convey love and appreciation to somebody that I

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Speaker 2: care about. There are just so many beautiful things that

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Speaker 2: our bodies can do, and it's not about how they

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Speaker 2: look that is able to convey those things or enable

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Speaker 2: us to experience things in life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we get caught up on the wrong stuff. It's

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Speaker 1: just a great conversation. I wish you'd been part of

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Speaker 1: it as well, but you don't love interviews, so I

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Speaker 1: did it on my own. Renee Ngel, Professor Renee Engeln.

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Speaker 1: The full length conversation will be played on Saturday for

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Speaker 1: your casual, easy weekend listening about body image and our

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Speaker 1: beauty sick society. Please join us on the weekend for

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Speaker 1: that great discussion. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. More information and resources are

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Speaker 1: available to make your family happier at happy families dot com,

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Speaker 1: dot a