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Speaker 1: Is it possible for kids to have a healthy obsession

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Speaker 1: with a game? How do we create smooth transitions away

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Speaker 1: from screens without daily meltdowns? Are there any specific tools

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Speaker 1: that we can implement to end screen time peacefully? Gooday,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions every

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 2: We are Justin and Kylie Coulson.

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Speaker 1: And today on the pod, a quick Insight, a sampler

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Speaker 1: of an interview that.

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Speaker 2: I did with a guy by the name of Scott Novus.

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Speaker 1: Scott is a former vice president at the Walt Disney Company.

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Speaker 1: He has led the Nintendo Center of Excellence. He's passionate

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Speaker 1: about helping families navigate the modern world of video games

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Speaker 1: and screen time. And Kylie, with three kids and decades

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Speaker 1: helping parents stop the daily battles over video games and screens.

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Speaker 1: This was one of the most invigorating conversations about screens

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Speaker 1: that we've ever had on the podcast. And I thought

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Speaker 1: today you and I would do a quick preview about

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Speaker 1: what's coming up on Saturday, just so people know how

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Speaker 1: important is that they tune in and check it out.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm a little bit confused. You've just told me

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Speaker 3: that he works with screens, but we're having a conversation

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Speaker 3: about they're not really good.

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Speaker 1: For actually, right, So he's been a game developer with

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Speaker 1: Disney and with Nintendo and done all this incredible work,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, that's exactly right. He's got a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of rules and ideas around how our kids can use

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Speaker 1: games in safe ways that minimize the downsides and fully

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Speaker 1: take advantage of the upsides. It was such a great discussion,

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Speaker 1: really provocative, really interesting, and I genuinely learned some stuff.

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Speaker 1: Let me share one of the things that he said.

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Speaker 1: We talked about addiction and what he calls and I've

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Speaker 1: never heard this language before. The hooked cycle or the

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Speaker 1: hooked algorithm that many game develop is a using today.

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Speaker 4: Why does every app you install on your phone ask

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Speaker 4: to turn on notifications because it's the beginning of the

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Speaker 4: hook cycle. You've got to que you to do something.

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Speaker 4: Then you're going to do a thing. Then we're going

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Speaker 4: to give you and this is the technical term a

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Speaker 4: variable ratio reward. It's unpredictable and it's tuned to be

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Speaker 4: just the right amount to hold your attention, get you

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Speaker 4: your dopamine, hit that never let you master the algorithm.

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Speaker 4: Then we're going to move you over to what's called investment,

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Speaker 4: and if we're lucky, what will happen is you will

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Speaker 4: start self culling like a cigarette attic, reaching for a cigarette.

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Speaker 4: And that's the behavior that is absolutely driving kids and

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Speaker 4: parents and everyone bonkers. It's not a game anymore. It's

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Speaker 4: not entertainment. It is how much money can we make

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Speaker 4: stealing people's attention. And guess whose attention is most vulnerable

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Speaker 4: to being stolen? Your kids, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, what he's saying is that there is a way

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Speaker 1: that you can have kids involved in games that is

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Speaker 1: not disruptive, is not harmful, and actually facilitates good social experience,

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Speaker 1: problem solving and just genuine fun. But there are some

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Speaker 1: game developers and gaming houses that have come up with

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Speaker 1: solutions that genuinely addict our kids, that really just reach

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Speaker 1: out and put that hook into them and hold on.

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Speaker 3: So I never had a gaming console or anything like

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Speaker 3: that growing up.

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Speaker 1: I did, which is why our kids don't, because I

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Speaker 1: was addicted.

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Speaker 2: I was absolutely addicted.

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Speaker 3: But I would go to my friend's place and every

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Speaker 3: now and again I'd have a game of Pac Man

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Speaker 3: or is it Mario Brothers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're you're doing really well here, honey, you

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Speaker 1: really know your stuff.

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Speaker 3: And we'd sit down and we'd have a session. But

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Speaker 3: once we'd finished, there was nothing that reminded us about

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Speaker 3: that session. There was no notification that kind of popped

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Speaker 3: up or screamed at us to say, hey, I'm here,

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Speaker 3: give me some more attention, like what our kids are

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Speaker 3: now dealing with. And I love the way he talked

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Speaker 3: about this hook cycle. The very first thing you do.

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Speaker 3: I recognize it as he was saying it. So often

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Speaker 3: you download an app and it's like to make sure

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Speaker 3: your notifications are on so we can send your messages.

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Speaker 3: And I hate it. Yeah, yeah, I really hate it.

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Speaker 1: You know how annoying I am though, because I turn

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Speaker 1: all my notifications off and then nothing can contact me

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what's going on. But from my

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Speaker 1: peace of mind and for my stress levels, it's so

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Speaker 1: much better. I just say, no, you're not sending me

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Speaker 1: in notifications at all. Although I try not to download

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Speaker 1: a lot of the apps that are trying.

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Speaker 2: To hook me.

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Speaker 1: This guy, Scott, he shared so many great strategies to

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Speaker 1: help us to navigate this. I don't want to give

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Speaker 1: away the whole interview, and he says it way better

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Speaker 1: than me. But he said it's great if you can

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Speaker 1: run a game like it's fun, and if they're doing

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Speaker 1: it in a balanced way, then it's going to enhance their.

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Speaker 2: Lives, not detract from their lives.

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Speaker 1: What are the things that he's is, don't don't play

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Speaker 1: games that are connected to the internet. Instead play games

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Speaker 1: with a console on your Telly so that there's a

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Speaker 1: defined end time.

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Speaker 3: Also that well, I guess that was my experience growing

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Speaker 3: up when I would go to my friend's place. That's

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Speaker 3: exactly why.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you turn it off, it's gone, like you

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Speaker 1: can put it back in the cupboard and it's not

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Speaker 1: constantly screaming at you, come play me again, Come play

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Speaker 1: me again. You've got free rewards, you've got free lives,

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Speaker 1: you've got this, and you've got that. You've got infinite

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Speaker 1: lives to the next thirty minutes. If you want to

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Speaker 1: do this challenge and it drags you in and forces

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Speaker 1: you to play at times that are not convenient, why

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Speaker 1: because it suits the game developers and they get to

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Speaker 1: hook you, addict you pull you in. It's really really

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Speaker 1: fascinating what he's got to say about and there's so

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Speaker 1: much more that he said.

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Speaker 3: I love how he talks about this stolen attention. Literally

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Speaker 3: they're stealing.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're currently reading from us Johann Hurry's stolen focus. Similar,

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Speaker 1: similar concept. These developers are really out too, genuinely, the mendacity.

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Speaker 1: It's so inndacious. They are literally out to get you.

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Speaker 1: That's what they're doing. They say they're not, but that's

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Speaker 1: what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: After the break.

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Speaker 1: One more thing that I just love that he had

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Speaker 1: to say about how we can break addiction cycles. Scott

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Speaker 1: Novos is a former vice president at the Walt Disney Corporation.

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Speaker 1: He also did a whole lot of stuff with Nintendo

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Speaker 1: for a number of years, and he's all about how

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Speaker 1: we can end video game time without fighting master screen

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Speaker 1: time boundaries, select safe game options. I asked him about roadblocks,

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Speaker 1: about Fortnite and about Minecraft. I just asked for a

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Speaker 1: yes or a no. I said, I don't want you

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Speaker 1: to tell me anything, just yes or no. I said roadblocks.

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Speaker 1: He gave me an answer. I said Fortnite, he gave

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Speaker 1: me an answer. Minecraft. He gave me an answer. And

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Speaker 1: I can't stop smiling because of the way that he

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Speaker 1: answered each of those questions, that's going to happen on Saturday.

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Speaker 1: If you really want to know what the guy who

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Speaker 1: develops these games or similar games is all about, he'll

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Speaker 1: be able to tell you that on Saturday.

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Speaker 2: But callie.

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Speaker 1: The second question that I asked him was what are

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Speaker 1: the rules for screens? Like tips for digital detoxes for

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Speaker 1: kids and gaming addiction.

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Speaker 2: Here's what he had to say.

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Speaker 4: If you detox right, take it away, get them out,

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Speaker 4: get them moving, get them out in a natural environment,

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Speaker 4: get them into nature, get them to decompress. It's like

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Speaker 4: taking their phones away. Man, it makes a huge difference.

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Speaker 4: Some of the tips are make sure your phone has

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Speaker 4: a bedtime, no screens in the bedroom at night. Lots

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Speaker 4: of parents think, oh, they turn the screens off, Like no,

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Speaker 4: they don't think which to you fall sit and they

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Speaker 4: get up and go play again. And teachers just ask

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Speaker 4: your teachers, it's my kid palling a sleeping class. That's

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Speaker 4: your single biggest clue that kids are sneaking more game time.

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Speaker 4: I have a friend who found their son had a

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Speaker 4: burner phone so they could be online with games. A

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Speaker 4: burner phone, Are you kidding me? Like the links they're

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Speaker 4: going to because they're hooked are just crazy. So part

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Speaker 4: of it is getting them away from that and then

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Speaker 4: getting them into an environment where they've got control. That's

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Speaker 4: the biggest thing is are these games either reinforcing their

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Speaker 4: sense of agency or these games completely deleting it? And

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Speaker 4: step one is get rid of the games that are

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Speaker 4: deleting their sense of agency. Then walk yourself through the progression.

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Speaker 4: And if you get to the end of your rope

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Speaker 4: they really can't let it go, then you probably need help.

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Speaker 1: Keyword here healthy gaming facilitates a sense of agency. Unhealthy

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Speaker 1: gaming destroys agency.

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Speaker 3: I know what we've done podcasts on this previously. We've

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Speaker 3: talked about the extremes. You know, boys who sit in

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Speaker 3: their rooms for hours and hours on end. They haven't eaten,

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Speaker 3: they haven't even gone to the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: We hear these stories or they start screaming and punching

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Speaker 1: walls when they're told to get off like this compulsive use.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and having just had an experience where you and

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Speaker 3: I literally took ourselves away from the outside world and

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Speaker 3: had our very own detox.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like almost almost didn't touch the phones for a

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Speaker 1: week except to take a photo or two.

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Speaker 3: I would never have imagined just how freeing it felt.

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Speaker 3: The word that comes to my mind was I was

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Speaker 3: dreading coming home.

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Speaker 1: And how long when we got home did it take

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Speaker 1: until we felt normal again? Because coming back to all

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Speaker 1: of this was so much, like it's so much weeks

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Speaker 1: of challenge and difficulty and exhaustion because of the lack

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Speaker 1: of agency we experience because these devices are so well

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Speaker 1: designed to keep on drawing us in. I actually hate it,

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Speaker 1: but I can't put it down, and I'm watching myself

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Speaker 1: do it and thinking, I teach this stuff, I understand

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Speaker 1: the science, I know what's going on inside.

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Speaker 2: My brain, and it's still getting me.

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Speaker 1: What chance of our kids got this whole conversation about kids,

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Speaker 1: agency and device. I don't know if this is the

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Speaker 1: conversation Scott thought he'd be having, but he said at

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Speaker 1: the end of it, once we hung up, he said,

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Speaker 1: that was probably one of the most provocative and maybe

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Speaker 1: even adversarial conversations I've ever had. He said, you really

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Speaker 1: ask hard questions. But he said that was so invigorating,

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Speaker 1: like that's got to be a helpful conversation for people,

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Speaker 1: which I said, I didn't try to.

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Speaker 2: Make an enemy of you. He said, no, no, no, No,

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Speaker 2: enemy's here like it was great.

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Speaker 1: But you're really asking hard questions because and I'm asking

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Speaker 1: the questions because these are the things that parents are

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Speaker 1: telling me they're grappling with.

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Speaker 2: This is what I'm grappling with, right. I mean, I'm asking.

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Speaker 1: On behalf of everyone who's listening, but I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: asking for me because this is so hard. Anyway, find

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Speaker 1: out more with this brilliant conversation that I've had with

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Speaker 1: Scott Novs this weekend. We'll drop it on Saturday for

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Speaker 1: your weekend listening pleasure. You can listen whenever it suits you.

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Speaker 1: You've got two days to get through it, and I

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Speaker 1: think you go to love it. The Happy Family's podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. For more

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Speaker 1: information about making your family happier, you can visit us

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Speaker 1: a Happy families dot com dot you and check out

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Speaker 1: some of my webinars about keeping kids in healthy relationships

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Speaker 1: with their screens Happy families dot com dot au