Speaker 1: Ordinarily Speaking.
Speaker 2: Everything looked perfect on the outside, but it couldn't have
Speaker 2: been worse on the inside. My brain had told me
Speaker 2: I was living the worst life. Soon s.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Ordinarily Speaking, a podcast that celebrates
Speaker 3: resilience in sport. My guest this episode is cricketer Moses Henriquez.
Speaker 3: He's been somewhat of a pioneer in the mental health space.
Speaker 3: The way he has shared his personal battle has helped
Speaker 3: other cricketers put their hands up to ask for help.
Speaker 3: The manner in which he explains his depression and anxiety
Speaker 3: is eye opening yet relatable. Born in Portugal, Moses moved
Speaker 3: to Australia at a very young age and has gone
Speaker 3: on to play four tests for Australia, eleven One Day
Speaker 3: Internationals and eleven T twenty Internationals, the pressure of potential
Speaker 3: following him every step of the way. We caught up
Speaker 3: at his house in Sydney pre coronavirus restrictions, where he
Speaker 3: is a new dad and more motivated than ever to
Speaker 3: speak up. If this chat triggers things for you, please
Speaker 3: remember there is help out there, beyond Blue or Lifeline,
Speaker 3: just a couple of places you can go. I hope
Speaker 3: you enjoy the chat.
Speaker 4: Well, Moses, thanks so much for spending some time with me.
Speaker 1: Thanks Nerlie, thanks for having me excited about this.
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you first up, what made you
Speaker 3: you've been really open with your mental health.
Speaker 4: What made you take a private battle public.
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question.
Speaker 2: I think there was a morning when I woke up
Speaker 2: when I was probably fairly close to like like the
Speaker 2: darkest times that i'd sort of been through in terms
Speaker 2: of what was happening in my head. And I remember
Speaker 2: waking up one morning and thinking, I've actually got the
Speaker 2: life I've always wanted. I was playing professional cricket, lived
Speaker 2: in my own house, I had a really supporting girlfriend,
Speaker 2: a beautiful dog, great family, both my brothers, my mum
Speaker 2: and dad or you know, they were also supportive, an
Speaker 2: employer who was supportive, you know, security, and I still
Speaker 2: couldn't find a way to be grateful or happy about
Speaker 2: everything that was going on around me. I just remembered thinking,
Speaker 2: like this is how I guess addicts were like a
Speaker 2: created and homeless people. And you know, when you get
Speaker 2: to this state of a mindset and you don't have
Speaker 2: that support and you don't have people there around you,
Speaker 2: trying to help you like I had when I was
Speaker 2: going through some really tough times. I even thought, if
Speaker 2: I didn't have my partner, there christa to bounce off
Speaker 2: and to constantly reassure me that, you know, every day
Speaker 2: was a success, every day was a winner. And I
Speaker 2: was like, what would what would someone in that situation
Speaker 2: do without that support. I just thought it was crazy
Speaker 2: that some people would have to fight those demons in
Speaker 2: their head and fight those thoughts and feelings on their own.
Speaker 1: I remembered in that moment, I.
Speaker 2: Was just like, if I ever get to the light
Speaker 2: at the end of this tunnel, firstly, I wanted to
Speaker 2: do some work in trying to bridge that gap of
Speaker 2: the amount of support that I had around and those
Speaker 2: that are in a fortunate position can access and resources
Speaker 2: that can that they can access and try and just
Speaker 2: at least raise some awareness and get some support out
Speaker 2: to the less fortunate. Yes, I think that would be
Speaker 2: trying to battle those things on their own. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was so hard to battle it with all the
Speaker 2: resources I had, and I could just I could only
Speaker 2: imagine if you didn't have them, how hard it would
Speaker 2: have been. And as I said, I was just like
Speaker 2: this is exactly how people's lives just I think, take
Speaker 2: a huge u turn when they don't have that support
Speaker 2: around them and they've got those you know, demons.
Speaker 4: How are you feeling?
Speaker 3: I know, I know it's a battle every day and
Speaker 3: every day changes. How are you feeling today in this
Speaker 3: moment right here?
Speaker 2: Oh it's a completely different a completely different person now
Speaker 2: to what I would have been two and a half
Speaker 2: years ago. I think, yeah, two years and maybe two
Speaker 2: months when I was probably at my worst, and that
Speaker 2: had been sort of off and on for the majority
Speaker 2: of my twenties. I'd say, so maybe five to seven years.
Speaker 2: There'd be you know, six months where I felt really good,
Speaker 2: and then the next six months I'd be sort of
Speaker 2: finding ways to justify what I was doing to get
Speaker 2: through and saying this is completely normal, feeling.
Speaker 1: Like this and whatever.
Speaker 2: But to get to the breaking point of the you know,
Speaker 2: the the nadir, so to speak, that sort of low
Speaker 2: point where I was just like, you know what, I
Speaker 2: actually can't function anymore.
Speaker 1: I can't keep going on like this.
Speaker 2: That was probably about two years and two months ago,
Speaker 2: and it was crazy how quickly I turned that around,
Speaker 2: how quickly that changed compared to what I thought at
Speaker 2: the time. I thought it was going to be, you know,
Speaker 2: possibly something that stayed with me forever, and.
Speaker 3: Is that That's the thing, isn't it is that when
Speaker 3: you're in it, it feels all consuming.
Speaker 1: It does it? Does it? It felt like.
Speaker 2: Because you just don't I didn't have that clarity of
Speaker 2: mind to rationalize with myself in a or in a
Speaker 2: positive way. When I was in that space, I just
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking logically, and I was just catastrophized everything, catastrophizing
Speaker 2: the future. I was stuck in the future completely. I
Speaker 2: was never in the present moment, and I just.
Speaker 1: Remembered thinking, like.
Speaker 2: My moods and the way that I was, I was
Speaker 2: going to end up just pushing people away and I'd
Speaker 2: end up being alone forever. I remember that was like
Speaker 2: one thought that you know, I was going to basically
Speaker 2: lose everything that I held dear, and that thought just
Speaker 2: completely took over. It was just like this, It started
Speaker 2: off as a little you know, like a little fire,
Speaker 2: and then it just turned into an inferno in the head,
Speaker 2: like through months and months of just not not being
Speaker 2: comfortable with the thought. And I think that's sort of
Speaker 2: that feeling for me at that stage of trying to
Speaker 2: control my environment all the time, trying to make sure
Speaker 2: that I know exactly what's going on and that I
Speaker 2: don't fail, and that you know, success and all these
Speaker 2: types of things. I was always trying to control every
Speaker 2: environment I was in. And once I learned that to
Speaker 2: let go of control and to be comfortable with the
Speaker 2: unknown and just to be just to be completely present
Speaker 2: in that sort of in that moment you're in now,
Speaker 2: that was a huge I mean, it took so much
Speaker 2: time to learn how to do that as well, but
Speaker 2: it was a huge turning point for me to sort
Speaker 2: of just try to let go of control a little bit,
Speaker 2: try to let go of what will happen in the future,
Speaker 2: because you just never know the future may never come.
Speaker 2: But now, compared to them, I still look back and
Speaker 2: can't even fathom the thoughts I had going through my
Speaker 2: head at that stage and think like I just felt
Speaker 2: like a completely different person. And there are still times
Speaker 2: where like some of those thoughts might come back, like
Speaker 2: there are still some triggers or whatever. And I remember
Speaker 2: when we had our baby only eight weeks ago, the
Speaker 2: first couple of weeks definitely did trigger some like all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, this thing comes into the world that
Speaker 2: you cherish and you hold so dear. But the first
Speaker 2: thing I thought about was like not celebrating the joy
Speaker 2: and like the happiness around it, but was like worried
Speaker 2: and paranoid and again trying to control his environment and
Speaker 2: mine and making sure that I gave him everything I
Speaker 2: could to you know that, like I started worrying about
Speaker 2: being a happy family and trying to create and control
Speaker 2: the future for him, to make sure that he was
Speaker 2: going to be happy, and sort of started sneaking into
Speaker 2: some of those bad habits again. And it just took
Speaker 2: a little bit of adjusting even then. But with the
Speaker 2: stuff that I'd learned, and I could pick up those
Speaker 2: symptoms really early rather than just letting it again, like
Speaker 2: letting it roll on into something really dangerous.
Speaker 1: So I think because I went through it.
Speaker 2: Initially, it made managing that whole experience a lot easier
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: At the depths of it, paint a picture for us
Speaker 3: of what that looks like, like can you physically could
Speaker 3: somebody physically tell that something was wrong with you or something.
Speaker 4: Was up with you?
Speaker 1: Well, it's strange.
Speaker 2: A lot of my close friends didn't know and had
Speaker 2: no idea until possibly until I stood down from a game.
Speaker 2: My wife definitely knew, She one hundred percent knew, and
Speaker 2: she could see it. You can't like that's the thing.
Speaker 2: You can only keep the front on front up for
Speaker 2: so long. My brothers didn't know. So it depends how
Speaker 2: much time you spend with someone, I think, and at
Speaker 2: that stage I was happening both New South Wales and
Speaker 2: the Sixers, and I just felt it was so important
Speaker 2: to be a strong leader, you know, it was. I
Speaker 2: couldn't let that front come down when I was at
Speaker 2: work or at cricket. I couldn't bring my problems, my
Speaker 2: emotional problems to the game or to the sport. Because
Speaker 2: of that, it actually just kept getting worse and it
Speaker 2: kept getting bigger. But my partner could definitely see what
Speaker 2: I was going through.
Speaker 4: And so what did she see?
Speaker 1: She saw at home.
Speaker 2: She saw someone that barely smiled, if at all, didn't laugh,
Speaker 2: didn't enjoy times that I used to enjoy, Someone that
Speaker 2: didn't want to socialize, didn't like, avoided going out in
Speaker 2: public at all costs. Home became the safe space. But
Speaker 2: then you felt guilty. At the end of a day
Speaker 2: spent at home, you felt guilty because you're achieving nothing.
Speaker 2: So I it was just this vicious circle of I
Speaker 2: didn't want to didn't want to socialize because I was
Speaker 2: so ashamed of who I was. I didn't want to
Speaker 2: and the conversations I had with people, as hard as
Speaker 2: I tried to engage, my head was just not there,
Speaker 2: like it was somewhere else. I was you know how
Speaker 2: you going, mate?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Good, thanks, you know, like, and I could hear what
Speaker 2: they were saying, but it was just going straight through.
Speaker 2: And even at home with my partner, like we'd have
Speaker 2: conversations where twenty minute conversations where ten minutes later I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have even been able to know what we spoke about.
Speaker 2: Like my memory, my engagement to the present moment was
Speaker 2: just so far beyond. I was just constantly living in
Speaker 2: the future, and like living in a doom future because
Speaker 2: I was just like everything's everything's bad is going to
Speaker 2: happen soon, like you know, I just so I was
Speaker 2: never able to enjoy any like any current moment which
Speaker 2: she could see all the like all the time, I'd
Speaker 2: started playing video games and stuff more often to like escape.
Speaker 2: I remember I played about seventeen seasons of seasons of
Speaker 2: FIFA in about a month, and I like, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I called it raising the youth, you know,
Speaker 2: getting these young kids and turning him into soccer superstars.
Speaker 2: But and I thought I was doing something great with
Speaker 2: my life. And I sort of look back now and
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like, this is that sort of obsession. And
Speaker 2: it was because it kept me inside, and it kept
Speaker 2: me away from having to socialize with people and kept
Speaker 2: me away from you know, living life essentially and building relationships.
Speaker 2: And I became comfortable with sort of this little world
Speaker 2: I had with you know, playing playing PlayStation. And the
Speaker 2: first thing I did when I wanted to change and
Speaker 2: made those changes is I just cut out anything that
Speaker 2: would keep me in the house. So I threw my
Speaker 2: PlayStation out, I deleted all the games off my phone.
Speaker 2: Not that that relationship or that would be the same
Speaker 2: for everyone that plays video games or but I knew
Speaker 2: for me, I used that as something to stop me
Speaker 2: from going out and to stop me from socializing and
Speaker 2: anything that encouraged me to stay at home other than
Speaker 2: like the relationship with my partner I tried to eradicate.
Speaker 4: Really, did she try and say you need help?
Speaker 3: Did you realize you needed help or did it all
Speaker 3: just feel like it's just a phase, or how did
Speaker 3: it feel at that.
Speaker 4: Point in time before you got help.
Speaker 2: I'd been getting help for like two years, I reckon
Speaker 2: before that like the toughest point, and that help was
Speaker 2: mainly because I thought I was like, I was telling
Speaker 2: myself that I didn't enjoy cricket anymore, and I was like,
Speaker 2: you know what, I don't. I don't enjoy the game anymore.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't love it like I used to.
Speaker 2: Should I retire?
Speaker 1: Should I? You know?
Speaker 4: So that's about four years ago now, that.
Speaker 1: Would have been.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think those thoughts kind of started when I
Speaker 2: was like twenty seven, twenty eight, And ironically it's sort
Speaker 2: of lined up with when I actually started performing well.
Speaker 2: I'd been injured and inconsistent and you know, all this
Speaker 2: chat about your potential in my early twenties and late
Speaker 2: teens and how.
Speaker 4: Much does that impact a person?
Speaker 1: You know what?
Speaker 2: At the time, I thought I handled it well and
Speaker 2: I thought I knew exactly like I was like, no,
Speaker 2: it's fine, I'll just you know, chill out, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's all good. And I sort of took it all
Speaker 2: in my stride at the time, but I think listening
Speaker 2: to that external expectation ended up becoming internal expectation of
Speaker 2: what I felt like I needed to achieve because everyone
Speaker 2: had told me I should.
Speaker 4: Or should have by now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I thought that was okay, you know, I
Speaker 2: thought I was handled pretty well. But then once I
Speaker 2: actually started almost playing to what people had expected for
Speaker 2: so long, I was like this, I've been like looking
Speaker 2: for this moment for so long, and I'm not enjoying
Speaker 2: it now, and like why why? And I started questioning
Speaker 2: and all this sort of stuff. And I didn't realize
Speaker 2: at the time what had manifested and why I wasn't
Speaker 2: enjoying it and why all these things had happened. But
Speaker 2: I'd actually gotten to the age where I could no
Speaker 2: longer get a contract next year on potential, So that
Speaker 2: sort of twenty six twenty seven, And I only realized
Speaker 2: this when I started the whole you know, really being
Speaker 2: honest with myself and really saying like, why don't you
Speaker 2: like cricket anymore?
Speaker 1: Like why did you love it when you were.
Speaker 2: Seventeen eighteen, like absolutely lived, breathe, absolute cricket stuff, and
Speaker 2: now why don't like why don't you like it? Anymore.
Speaker 2: The game hasn't changed. It was my perception to the game,
Speaker 2: and once I really got into it, I think what
Speaker 2: massively changed was at twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight.
Speaker 2: Subconsciously I realized, like when I looked back through my
Speaker 2: therapy and I started you know, reading a lot more
Speaker 2: about you know, the fear of failure and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and what these sort of behaviors look like. It was
Speaker 2: just a huge fear of failure. Once I actually got
Speaker 2: to the age where I was like, you know, what
Speaker 2: if I don't perform? And I never actually thought this
Speaker 2: in my head, but like subconsciously I knew if I
Speaker 2: don't perform at this age, I can't keep getting a contract.
Speaker 2: So it was like this huge fear of failure and
Speaker 2: the fact that like i'd go out and play and
Speaker 2: do well, I would sort of keep my head above
Speaker 2: water of.
Speaker 4: Like, okay, instead of enjoying enjoying m.
Speaker 2: Just enjoying the moment and enjoying like being playing cricket
Speaker 2: with my friends, I was like, okay, well I've got
Speaker 2: another two games. I remember I had like the most
Speaker 2: successful year I'd had, and I was like, what was
Speaker 2: all that for? I never felt satisfaction or fulfillment, so
Speaker 2: to speak. I just felt relief, like it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I've finally done what people like. I never felt satisfied,
Speaker 2: I know, I never felt like fulfilled with what I
Speaker 2: was achieving on the cricket field. And the only thing
Speaker 2: I ever felt was like a relief, like, Oh, thank god,
Speaker 2: I finally did well. Thank god, I've finally lived up
Speaker 2: to what people wanted me to do. And I think
Speaker 2: I started like playing cricket how other people like, almost
Speaker 2: worried about what other people's expectations were and you know,
Speaker 2: what is it? What does a successful life look like?
Speaker 2: And all this sort of stuff. And I never actually like,
Speaker 2: at that age, I didn't actually just enjoy my life
Speaker 2: and enjoy the game. And I was always just like,
Speaker 2: am I doing enough? Am I doing enough? I've got
Speaker 2: to do more. I've got to do more. You've got
Speaker 2: to do this perfect. This has to be done. This
Speaker 2: has to be done. And when I look back at
Speaker 2: some of the ways that I used to train and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, I was just nuts, Like some times
Speaker 2: I go in without I wouldn't even have a purpose
Speaker 2: other than training more.
Speaker 1: It's like hit more balls, bowl more.
Speaker 2: Balls, and now I'm like the complete opposite, not that
Speaker 2: I don't train as much, but like before I train,
Speaker 2: I sit down and I think, like I actually visualize
Speaker 2: or picture what I want to get out of the
Speaker 2: training session and what do I want to achieve in
Speaker 2: this training session or today when even if it's not cricket,
Speaker 2: if it's life, it's like I wake up in the morning,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what am I going to like what are
Speaker 2: the things I'm going to achieve today? And it just
Speaker 2: stops so much that procrastination that I used to do
Speaker 2: in my life. It was like giving myself a purpose
Speaker 2: every day of you know, the things I wanted to do.
Speaker 2: Whether that's like you know, some days, if I'm having
Speaker 2: a day off, I'll wake up and go and say
Speaker 2: to myself, today I'm just going to completely engage with
Speaker 2: every conversation I have with anyone like a stranger, whoever
Speaker 2: serves me coffee at the cafe, whoever it is, and
Speaker 2: I walk away from some of those conversations like with
Speaker 2: smile from ear to ear, like to see other people
Speaker 2: smiling and to see other people enjoying their day. And
Speaker 2: I've started like loving to hear about other people's journeys.
Speaker 2: Connection connection, Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4: When you were at the worst of it, how bad
Speaker 4: was it for you?
Speaker 2: I remember waking up and having a game to play,
Speaker 2: and I was like, just give me something that will
Speaker 2: take this away, Like this, I wanted to try, not
Speaker 2: only prescription like forget prescription drugs. I wanted to try
Speaker 2: like the heaviest stuff that would just give my brain
Speaker 2: a break. I was like, I wanted to just give
Speaker 2: my mind a rest, and I knew that it wasn't
Speaker 2: healthy at the time. When I was at my at
Speaker 2: the worst, I didn't have a drop of alcohol for
Speaker 2: like three months because I just thought, like my dad
Speaker 2: had a bit of an alcohol issue growing up, and
Speaker 2: I saw him drink a lot of alcohol in my teens,
Speaker 2: and he also had depression and probably still does or
Speaker 2: he definitely still does. But I was so concerned about
Speaker 2: having that dependency on it. So at the worst, at
Speaker 2: my most bottom, I was so fearful of like if
Speaker 2: I had one drink of alcohol, I would turn into
Speaker 2: an alcoholic. Like up until that point, I'd always been
Speaker 2: fairly responsible with how I drank alcohol, like as much
Speaker 2: as I would never behave too poorly on the drink.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've done some stupid things. We all have,
Speaker 2: especially when I was younger, but you're always aware of Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've never woken up the next morning and not known
Speaker 2: what I'd done the night before, other than a couple
Speaker 2: of midnight snacks.
Speaker 4: But we all forget YEA calories after two am.
Speaker 1: Don't count exactly.
Speaker 2: But it was just this, like I had this fear
Speaker 2: of becoming completely dependent on alcohol, so I steered away
Speaker 2: from that. But at the same time, when I got
Speaker 2: to my worst, I was like, I do need something.
Speaker 2: I knew alcohol wasn't the answer, but I was like,
Speaker 2: what else is there that I can take to fix this?
Speaker 2: Because I can't do it anymore? And I was just like,
Speaker 2: there's no way. And in terms of the physical, like
Speaker 2: what started to happen to me physically, like I was
Speaker 2: shaking for a lot of the day, just feeling like
Speaker 2: I couldn't sit still or stand still, felt like I
Speaker 2: had like a squash ball in my chest. It felt
Speaker 2: like my heart rate, my resting heart rate would have
Speaker 2: been like one forty, but then I'd like, I'd check,
Speaker 2: I'd actually check my resting heart rate and it was
Speaker 2: still fairly normal, maybe a couple of beats more than
Speaker 2: what it normally would be, but like it felt like
Speaker 2: it was through the roof, completely lost appetite, not sleeping. Basically,
Speaker 2: if you looked up the depression symptoms on Google, I
Speaker 2: was ticking off almost every single one of them, and
Speaker 2: like quite severely. There was probably two or three months
Speaker 2: where I was in a really bad place and trying
Speaker 2: to function on you know, one or two hours sleep,
Speaker 2: and then the sleep I got was like at really
Speaker 2: unhealthy times as well. I lost I remember, I still
Speaker 2: remember I'd lost about ten kilos in maybe four weeks,
Speaker 2: So I went from being like ninety eight kilos to
Speaker 2: eighty eight kilos in the space of four weeks. And
Speaker 2: I remember going like I was living with Mike Michael
Speaker 2: lum was living at my place at the time when
Speaker 2: he was out playing for the Sixers, and I remember
Speaker 2: going down to the beach. He'd like forced me because
Speaker 2: he knew he was doing everything he could to get
Speaker 2: me out of the house. And I remember going down
Speaker 2: to the beach and sort of taking my shirt off
Speaker 2: and going into the water. He's like, jeez, you've been
Speaker 2: going to the gym, mate, Like you're looking ripped. As
Speaker 2: I was like, no, I haven't been in the gym
Speaker 2: in a month. It's called depression, Like I've just lost
Speaker 2: so much weight. He's like, you're looking like healthy, and
Speaker 2: I was like, nah, I like literally, my everything's just
Speaker 2: been shredded off my body, like and it was not
Speaker 2: healthy at all. And jokingly he's like, geez, I've got
Speaker 2: to get me some of that depression and I was like, no, no,
Speaker 2: trust me. I was like, you don't wish it. You
Speaker 2: don't wish it on your like on your worst enemy.
Speaker 2: The amazing thing was like once I started feeling better
Speaker 2: and I got my appetite back, it all came on
Speaker 2: so quickly. Like I remember at the end of that
Speaker 2: next Shield season, I was one hundred and three, so
Speaker 2: I put on fifteen kilos in like eighteen months. But
Speaker 2: I couldn't have been happier and I couldn't have been
Speaker 2: in a better place. No one ever said anything, or
Speaker 2: no one charged or anything like that, which was it
Speaker 2: probably helps when you're six foot three you can sort
Speaker 2: of fluctuate in your weight a little bit more and
Speaker 2: people don't realize. But I remember looking back now and
Speaker 2: thinking at eighty eight kilos, people thought I was like
Speaker 2: physically looking so healthy, but inside I was an absolute mess,
Speaker 2: and then fifteen kilos heavy, it was the exact opposite. Inside,
Speaker 2: I couldn't have been more content and couldn't have been
Speaker 2: happier and more comfortable with where I was. I didn't
Speaker 2: look too different. Oh well, I didn't think I did,
Speaker 2: but maybe I had my happy pills on him when
Speaker 2: I was looking at myself in the mirror. But I
Speaker 2: think the biggest thing was actually the squash ball like
Speaker 2: in my chest, because at times when something didn't go
Speaker 2: my way, I just remember that squash ball turning into
Speaker 2: like a tennis ball and actually feeling like I couldn't breathe,
Speaker 2: and that feeling like I was having like almost like
Speaker 2: cardiac arrests.
Speaker 4: So was it like a pang like a physical.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, one moment in particular I remember, and
Speaker 2: it was so trivial. And I look back now as
Speaker 2: I was having just like my direct family and Chris's
Speaker 2: direct family of Christmas Eve was supposed to be a good,
Speaker 2: like a fun afternoon, and I knew that we should
Speaker 2: have been, like it was going to be helpful for
Speaker 2: me and CHRISTA was really like, let's get everyone over
Speaker 2: and you can you know, it'll be nice for you
Speaker 2: to see everyone and talk to everyone. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I should, I should. I didn't want to, Like I
Speaker 2: just wanted to be on my own and with Christa.
Speaker 2: I remember, but like we're trying to get prepared and everything,
Speaker 2: and I went to like turn the gas on the
Speaker 2: barbecue and there was no gas left in the barbecue
Speaker 2: and I was like it would have been two pm
Speaker 2: or something on Christmas Eve, and I just remember thinking, oh, well,
Speaker 2: life's over.
Speaker 1: And Chris is like what. I'm like, well, well, we're
Speaker 1: stuff here, Like I can't. I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't do the barbecue. There's going to be no
Speaker 2: food like where stuff. Like I knew we shouldn't have
Speaker 2: had people over. Let's ring them or tell them to go,
Speaker 2: like and she's like there's seven to eleven, like walk
Speaker 2: up the road to seven eleven and like and she's like,
Speaker 2: I'll do it. You stay here, I'll go up and
Speaker 2: get the gas from the service station and bring it back.
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, it's just too hard, like
Speaker 2: we're not gonna and like I was just creating this
Speaker 2: absolute because I was already at like my wits end
Speaker 2: before that had even happened, and then every little setback
Speaker 2: it just wasn't rational, like how I reacted to every
Speaker 2: little That was probably the worst anic attack I had.
Speaker 2: Like I remember like pacing around the house and like
Speaker 2: ending up on all four on all fours, like trying
Speaker 2: to breathe, trying to find like somewhere, and it was
Speaker 2: all because there was no gas in the in the
Speaker 2: like for the barbecue. And remember about half an hour,
Speaker 2: once I'd settled down and Chris had got me to
Speaker 2: focus on my breathing and stuff like that, and I
Speaker 2: was able to get back into sort of Okay, I'll
Speaker 2: just go up and do it. I was still in
Speaker 2: the car, like driving to the service station which is
Speaker 2: like a minute away, and I was still like shaking,
Speaker 2: and then coming back and trying to connect it all.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: It was just this huge task at the time that
Speaker 2: I had put on this absolute pedestal, like it was
Speaker 2: the most important thing ever. And I remember looking back
Speaker 2: a couple of months later, once I was feeling a
Speaker 2: lot healthier and thinking, wow, was that the same person
Speaker 2: that managed that, Like it's just bizarre to think how
Speaker 2: I reacted to some to some you know, stimuli that
Speaker 2: I hadn't prepared for. And again it was just as
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, is that something happening that I hadn't controlled,
Speaker 2: that I couldn't control. And whenever something kept popping up,
Speaker 2: especially when I was at my worst that I hadn't
Speaker 2: planned for, I couldn't cope. It's a constant reminder of
Speaker 2: how like to be okay with not knowing? Like, because
Speaker 2: you do want to plan and you want to organize
Speaker 2: and have you know, make sure that you're doing everything
Speaker 2: you can in this moment to make sure like you're
Speaker 2: going to be able to keep enjoying life. But if
Speaker 2: you don't actually live in this moment, then you know,
Speaker 2: like what's the point at all?
Speaker 4: To be fair, Christmas does bring out the worst.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: You're listening to ordinarily speaking with special guest Moses Henriquez.
Speaker 3: How do you feel about your wife and everything that
Speaker 3: she's been there for you, supporting you through it, because
Speaker 3: it sounds like she's been the rock through this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she definitely has.
Speaker 2: I definitely had like fears as well and anxieties over
Speaker 2: the burden on her. I mean she even stopped going
Speaker 2: to work for two weeks just to stay at home
Speaker 2: and to look after me, to make sure everything was okay.
Speaker 2: And I was like, this isn't sustainable, like you need
Speaker 2: to live your life just and I was almost telling
Speaker 2: her to leave me, like just go live your life.
Speaker 2: Oh you know, this isn't like there's no way you
Speaker 2: can live your life like this, and she was like yes,
Speaker 2: Like yes I can, of course I can. Like what
Speaker 2: are you talking about? This is ridiculous. Where it will
Speaker 2: sort it out, It's all fine. Like I just remember
Speaker 2: feeling like I was just creating this huge burden for her,
Speaker 2: but she never once made me feel like like that.
Speaker 2: When I look back now, what felt like just sort
Speaker 2: of that unconditional sort of care, unconditional love and respect
Speaker 2: I guess that she had. I just feel like, if
Speaker 2: you if you don't have that around to remind you
Speaker 2: of the clarity and the reason, I just can't imagine
Speaker 2: what I would aspire it into because I kind of
Speaker 2: felt like at times life couldn't have got any worse,
Speaker 2: like what And I know for a fact life could
Speaker 2: have could have got a lot worse my actual life,
Speaker 2: but my perception on life couldn't have got any worse.
Speaker 3: And did you know in the moment that it was irrational.
Speaker 3: Did you know my life's great ro rah? Or were
Speaker 3: you in the moment thinking, no, it is as bad
Speaker 3: as it feels.
Speaker 2: At all times, I knew that I was so lucky
Speaker 2: that I had physically I had, like I had a
Speaker 2: life that I shouldn't be worried about. But I think
Speaker 2: if anything, that even made me feel even possibly more
Speaker 2: guilty that I was like, how can you not feel?
Speaker 2: How are you not happy? How are you not feeling content?
Speaker 2: How like you've got stuff? Oither like there are people
Speaker 2: who are struggling to make meal, struggling to pay bills,
Speaker 2: et cetera, And they don't have a job that they like.
Speaker 2: Their kids are like struggling, or they've lost a loved one,
Speaker 2: or they've lost a child, or they've lost a father,
Speaker 2: all these things, and I hadn't I hadn't had any
Speaker 2: particular moment that had set this off. Or maybe a
Speaker 2: combination of a fair few things, and like a combination
Speaker 2: of I guess, my own sort of belief systems and
Speaker 2: from growing up and what I sort of what I
Speaker 2: told myself success was, I guess maybe, but nothing like
Speaker 2: it was crazy and that made me feel worse. You've
Speaker 2: got no reason to feel like.
Speaker 4: This, so angered anger and joined self.
Speaker 2: Guilt just came straight in like it was. It was
Speaker 2: a whole heap of self loathing and the guilt that
Speaker 2: I felt for being like that, which was while I
Speaker 2: was trying to I was like, you'll end up pushing
Speaker 2: everyone away. And because I was telling telling myself that narrative,
Speaker 2: that's what I was trying to do as well, I
Speaker 2: was like, you know.
Speaker 4: Because at least then you've got the control back exactly.
Speaker 2: I was like, and in it, I was trying to
Speaker 2: push everyone in a while, I was like, nah, like
Speaker 2: you don't want to spend time like you don't want
Speaker 2: to be here, It's not good for you. I had
Speaker 2: an understanding of that stage that all the negative thoughts
Speaker 2: had like just built and rolled on in my head,
Speaker 2: and I was like, there's no way that these negative
Speaker 2: thoughts can be good for other people to be around.
Speaker 2: So I was just trying to push them away, and
Speaker 2: thankfully they did it. Like, I had so many people
Speaker 2: who wanted to help.
Speaker 3: When I speak to sports people about going through this,
Speaker 3: a really common thing that comes up is crying in
Speaker 3: their cars ahead of training, ahead of a game. It's
Speaker 3: this pretending that, you know, getting everything out and then
Speaker 3: walking out and pretending everything is okay.
Speaker 4: Have you been through that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I remember.
Speaker 2: Crying the night before Shield games, like the night before
Speaker 2: day one of a Shield game was quite common for me, Like,
Speaker 2: and when it got worse, it was like the two
Speaker 2: or three nights leading into a Shield game, I was
Speaker 2: like so upset and in I was like, I've got
Speaker 2: four days of this shit, you know, I've got four
Speaker 2: days of this eight hour, nine hours a day chasing leather.
Speaker 1: I got it.
Speaker 2: Probably I'm probably going to miss out and watch watch
Speaker 2: the other boys bat for five hours, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to have to bowl and probably go whacked around. And
Speaker 2: I just catastrophizing what was going to happen in each game,
Speaker 2: and sure as anything, like the game would go like,
Speaker 2: the game would go forward, and you know, I may perform,
Speaker 2: I may not perform, like you know, And at the
Speaker 2: end of the game, the only thing I ever felt,
Speaker 2: whether I did really well or I did poorly, was relief.
Speaker 2: I was like, that game's over. I've got four days
Speaker 2: until the next one. Like. But I do remember specifically,
Speaker 2: and this was probably a year before I got to
Speaker 2: my worst, But I remember I won the toss at
Speaker 2: Banks Down Oval in a shield game against Tasmania, and
Speaker 2: we elected to bowl on what I thought was going
Speaker 2: to be a green seema And at the end of
Speaker 2: the day they were like two for two hundred and ninety.
Speaker 2: Come day two they get four hundred and twenty or
Speaker 2: four p fifty or something like that declared. Where five
Speaker 2: for ninety going into like at the end of day two,
Speaker 2: I got out for like twenty odd And I remember
Speaker 2: sitting in the car.
Speaker 1: I remember driving down the M five back home.
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking to myself in the car, like
Speaker 2: I'm doing one hundred and like one hundred and ten
Speaker 2: on the highway, thinking if I just turned this car
Speaker 2: into here, like what like into the into the pillar
Speaker 2: or somewhere, I didn't want to create a crash. I
Speaker 2: remember thinking like if I just got ranch straight into
Speaker 2: this pole or do here, what would happen, like like
Speaker 2: what would.
Speaker 1: What would be the coolinter like the.
Speaker 2: I guess the consequence of what would happen there, you know,
Speaker 2: And I was like, I can't do that. It's not
Speaker 2: fair on my brothers, it's not fair on Christa, and
Speaker 2: it's not fair on all these people out of there
Speaker 2: for me. I can't leave. I can't leave my team
Speaker 2: with ten men for the next two days.
Speaker 1: And I just.
Speaker 2: I never, like I just remembered that moment, and I
Speaker 2: just I remember crying. I ended up having to pull
Speaker 2: over because I was crying so heavily in the car
Speaker 2: that I was shaking and stuff.
Speaker 1: I had to pull over.
Speaker 2: Just took five minutes, ten minutes until like I stopped crying,
Speaker 2: and I was like, and that wasn't even at my worst,
Speaker 2: Like that was actually you know, that was just like
Speaker 2: a fleeting moment that in that five or ten minutes
Speaker 2: became like it just built up into something like really unhealthy.
Speaker 2: But even at that stage, I didn't even think I
Speaker 2: had Like I didn't think I had a really bad problem.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm just managing it, you know, Like
Speaker 2: it's it's like, this is this is what happens when
Speaker 2: you have a high pressure job, Like this is what
Speaker 2: you've got to put up with. And I'm like, if
Speaker 2: anyone was to tell me, like now that there felt
Speaker 2: something similar to that and it's because it's a high
Speaker 2: pressure job, it was like, no, it's not because it's
Speaker 2: a high like pressure and stress is something we can't
Speaker 2: weigh like it's something we create for ourselves, you know,
Speaker 2: it's what we what we perceive in every situation. And
Speaker 2: like it wasn't a high pressure job for me, Like
Speaker 2: it's just what other like what I may have considered
Speaker 2: high pressure or someone else may have considered, but the
Speaker 2: actual job wasn't. Like I was going out and playing
Speaker 2: cricket like I'm playing a game, like I'm having I'm
Speaker 2: supposed to be having fun. And I justified to myself
Speaker 2: how I was feeling, and it's like, well, you've got
Speaker 2: to because you've got to be able to you know,
Speaker 2: you've got these expectations, so that comes with feeling like
Speaker 2: this when you fail or when things don't go your way,
Speaker 2: these are the things that are going to happen. I
Speaker 2: really believe now you can manage that. You can manage
Speaker 2: high performance and well being in much better ways than
Speaker 2: what maybe I learned how to do.
Speaker 3: For sure, did you have to separate yourself from the
Speaker 3: cricketer because I found that so obviously with what I've
Speaker 3: gone through the last few months, losing my job, so
Speaker 3: that I had to start separating people weren't actually friends
Speaker 3: with me because of what I did for a living.
Speaker 3: They were friends with me because of who I am,
Speaker 3: and so it was a part of that for you
Speaker 3: that you suddenly started to realize when you gave up
Speaker 3: the captaincy, when you stepped away, that people actually that's
Speaker 3: how you knew them was through cricket, but that's not
Speaker 3: why they were friends with you.
Speaker 4: Was that part of it?
Speaker 2: It was huge, It was a really big part of
Speaker 2: of As strange as it sound, I never thought I
Speaker 2: had an ego. I never thought that I identified myself
Speaker 2: as a cricketer. I always thought I was quite humble
Speaker 2: in that sense, but I definitely to a degree. You know,
Speaker 2: although I might have been humble with the language I
Speaker 2: used what I saw as success and what I had
Speaker 2: picture in my head as being doing the right thing
Speaker 2: by external expectations and my own expectations, there was a
Speaker 2: huge ego attached to that. Like for me to achieve
Speaker 2: the things I wanted to achieve, it was because I
Speaker 2: wanted to be seen as something might not have always
Speaker 2: been like, you know, I had, like I wanted to
Speaker 2: succeed and be the best cricketer that ever lived. But
Speaker 2: I still remember from a very young age that like
Speaker 2: one of my life goals was to be the best
Speaker 2: dad possible. When I ended up growing up, I was like,
Speaker 2: I just want to be a great dad. I want
Speaker 2: to be there, and a great dad and a great husband.
Speaker 2: I want to be there. I was like more than
Speaker 2: anything else. And I've always sort of kept that in
Speaker 2: the back of my head. But like even that has
Speaker 2: a bit of an ego attachment to it, because that's
Speaker 2: I'm trying to attach my identity to what I perceive
Speaker 2: as success and and how I thought I was going
Speaker 2: to become a really good dad. Was like, okay, like
Speaker 2: you know, how am I going to do that?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Security, you know, money, success, a happy household, all these things,
Speaker 2: and what are what are the things that are going
Speaker 2: to make me have those things?
Speaker 1: Okay? Well, how am I going to make money? Okay?
Speaker 1: I'm going to play heap, Like, play really good cricket.
Speaker 2: If I do well at cricket, it brings everything else,
Speaker 2: like it makes its more pressure. Actually, it's going to
Speaker 2: give me a better chance of being a successful dad
Speaker 2: and you know, a happy dad and a successful father
Speaker 2: and husband if I've got you know, all those other
Speaker 2: things sorted out as well, and playing cricket. And once
Speaker 2: I was able to realize through a lot of reading
Speaker 2: and a lot of therapy and a lot of you know, research,
Speaker 2: that whole I guess relationship that I have now with
Speaker 2: the present moment and connections and talking to people and
Speaker 2: learning about other people has just completely changed how I
Speaker 2: sort of view who I want to be. It's like, no,
Speaker 2: I don't. I can only be a good father if
Speaker 2: I'm present. I can't be a good father on the
Speaker 2: back of just being a good cricketer like that, that
Speaker 2: means absolutely nothing. I can't be a good father just
Speaker 2: because you've made money or because you've put a shelter
Speaker 2: over someone's you know, over shelve one's head. It helps,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't. It doesn't mean you're a good father.
Speaker 2: I had to actually completely change my values, change my
Speaker 2: beliefs as to what I thought success was and what
Speaker 2: I wanted to prioritize, and you know, my beliefs and
Speaker 2: so on. I just I did a complete shift. I
Speaker 2: did a lot of reading about different cultures and even
Speaker 2: all sorts of different religions. And I've never been like
Speaker 2: a religious person. I read the Koran, I read the
Speaker 2: Bible like I literally just went and read as much
Speaker 2: and learned about as many different cultures and religions and
Speaker 2: stuff as possible, and what I learned in all of them,
Speaker 2: there's this common theme of basically just being kind to
Speaker 2: your fellow person in all of them, and how important
Speaker 2: relationships are in life. Self help books and psychology books
Speaker 2: that I read, it was the same ongoing theme. I
Speaker 2: was like, you know what, I actually do feel my best.
Speaker 2: I feel so much better when I'm helping other people
Speaker 2: or when I'm engaging with other people and learning about
Speaker 2: other people. So that became a huge focus. Being a
Speaker 2: cricketer is not that important. It's very lucky. I'm very
Speaker 2: privileged to do that.
Speaker 1: But if I.
Speaker 2: Stopped playing cricket tomorrow, someone else will take that spot
Speaker 2: and the game will keep rolling forward.
Speaker 3: You speak about being a dad, and you spoke about
Speaker 3: your own dad earlier. Have you spoken to your dad
Speaker 3: about sharing that commonality in mental health?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I remember when the first time I spoke to
Speaker 2: him and told him what I'd been diagnosed with, and.
Speaker 1: He was I chatted on the phone.
Speaker 2: I was in Hobart and he was asking why I
Speaker 2: hadn't played the last couple of games, and I told
Speaker 2: him and I couldn't even bear to tell him until
Speaker 2: I'd already started to feel a bit better. Because I
Speaker 2: remember I was in Hobart because it was the first tour.
Speaker 2: I was like, I want to see what I'm like
Speaker 2: now when I go. I wasn't there to play, but
Speaker 2: I was there to just sort of integrate back in
Speaker 2: around the team. So I was starting to feel like
Speaker 2: I was getting some moments of clarity each day, whether
Speaker 2: it be half an hour or ten minutes. Through the
Speaker 2: twenty four hours, I was feeling, you know, I was
Speaker 2: capable of positive thought against I was like, Okay, let's
Speaker 2: see if I can sort of integrate back into That
Speaker 2: was when I rank Dad and told him sort of
Speaker 2: the extent of everything. I remember him breaking down, crying
Speaker 2: and just saying like, this is all my fault.
Speaker 1: This is you feel like this because.
Speaker 2: Of you know, and I was like, no, it's not
Speaker 2: like if anything, me experiencing what I've gone through shows
Speaker 2: me the strength that you had to keep trying to
Speaker 2: stay alive to like father me through you know, all
Speaker 2: the battles that you had, and it gives me really
Speaker 2: good perspective as to the depression you battled. You know,
Speaker 2: like for a long time i'd be lying if I
Speaker 2: didn't say I was resentful towards him for maybe not
Speaker 2: giving me the best upbringing I could have had. But like,
Speaker 2: since I went through that depression myself, I was able
Speaker 2: to empathize with the challenges he would have had, you know,
Speaker 2: a single or divorce from my from divorce from my mum,
Speaker 2: from looking after me by himself, not having like barely
Speaker 2: spoke English, didn't left all of his family in another
Speaker 2: country out here battling depression on his own without much help,
Speaker 2: trying to raise a pain in the ass little kid
Speaker 2: who thought he knew everything, you know, Like for a
Speaker 2: long time, I was like, this isn't how raising a
Speaker 2: son supposed to look Like he's supposed to be there
Speaker 2: for me. I supposed to be drinking here and then
Speaker 2: like it just gave me this perspective that the strength
Speaker 2: he just kept waking up every day knowing that his
Speaker 2: responsibility was to make sure I was, you know, because
Speaker 2: I know he didn't want to be like he wanted
Speaker 2: to leave this world and what go to a better place,
Speaker 2: And he stayed alive and kept fighting through so that
Speaker 2: he could give me every opportunity to do, you know,
Speaker 2: to live And now he's got a hand son, so's
Speaker 2: he's he's in a very he's a much better place now.
Speaker 2: But I just remember that conversation and he like straight
Speaker 2: away thinking it was his fault because of you know,
Speaker 2: and I was like, no, it's not, it's not your Like,
Speaker 2: it's actually made me realize the strength that you had
Speaker 2: every day.
Speaker 1: To keep going.
Speaker 2: And it didn't it was an orthodox like it was,
Speaker 2: you know, an unorthodox way of parenting. But like at
Speaker 2: the same time, it gave me such a huge perspective
Speaker 2: of like, he didn't have the support I had. He
Speaker 2: didn't know, like he also didn't have the education I had.
Speaker 2: He left school in year eight, so he didn't like
Speaker 2: he didn't know if he worked at his mental health
Speaker 2: that he would actually get better. He just thought it
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'm stuffed forever, you know, like there's
Speaker 2: nothing I can do about it.
Speaker 1: This is just me. This is the way my brain is.
Speaker 2: Like he had no education or no insight to believe
Speaker 2: that if he worked at it, like things could improve.
Speaker 1: He just didn't know that that was a available.
Speaker 4: How do you feel now when you think back on
Speaker 4: that conversation.
Speaker 2: I think it was a really important conversation for both
Speaker 2: of us, like especially for me, because it's probably the
Speaker 2: first time I'd actually said thank you to him that
Speaker 2: sort of perspective of sort of going through somewhat what
Speaker 2: he would have gone through, I guess, but not to
Speaker 2: the same extent, because I, you know, he'd actually gone
Speaker 2: through my parents divorced, my two younger brothers when lived
Speaker 2: with my mum and I stayed with my dad, and.
Speaker 1: He'd actually gone through sort of that whole.
Speaker 2: Family being taken away and everything he felt, almost everything
Speaker 2: he had in his life had just been taken away
Speaker 2: from him. And it got to a stage when I
Speaker 2: was you know, I felt like I did over nothing.
Speaker 2: I was like, imagine if that happened to me, Like,
Speaker 2: imagine if when I got to his age and I
Speaker 2: didn't have that support network around him, and I put
Speaker 2: myself in his shoes. I was like, there would have
Speaker 2: been no way I would have coped. Like I even
Speaker 2: look back now, I just wonder how both my mum
Speaker 2: and dad even ever decided to move from.
Speaker 1: Portugal to come out here.
Speaker 2: You know, in the day of like you don't have
Speaker 2: they don't have duo Lingo to teach them how to
Speaker 2: learn how to speak a different language, they don't have
Speaker 2: the internet, all these apps and all these things that
Speaker 2: can help you integrate into society and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: They came out with a two year old kid, no
Speaker 2: idea on what this culture was going to be like.
Speaker 2: And they did it all for, you know, the hope
Speaker 2: of giving me and then eventually my two younger brothers
Speaker 2: a better opportunity. And I just had no idea like
Speaker 2: the strength and courage you would have taken them to
Speaker 2: do that, to leave their whole support network back home
Speaker 2: in Madeira, in Portugal. And I was always so quick
Speaker 2: to judge at how you could be doing things better.
Speaker 1: It's like, why don't you just do this better way?
Speaker 2: And to do like black and white and like it's
Speaker 2: just so you feel this because of that. And I've
Speaker 2: just learned that life is lived in the gray. Like
Speaker 2: there it is not black and white. Nothing's ever black
Speaker 2: and white, Like there is always gray, and there's always
Speaker 2: a reason for why someone may have acted in a
Speaker 2: way or behaved in a way, and to you know,
Speaker 2: to try and at least empathize with and be kind
Speaker 2: to that person.
Speaker 4: Setbacks breed empathy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you said you thought about self medicating, did
Speaker 3: you ever self medicate?
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 2: I did eventually with prescription medicine, so with any to presence.
Speaker 4: But that's not self medicating, that's getting help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well no, I didn't ever self medicate. I remember
Speaker 2: lying in bed wanting too for a long time, and
Speaker 2: you know, considering all the different types of drugs that
Speaker 2: will be possible, I didn't even at the stage I was.
Speaker 1: Like, who would I call? Like who am I? Who
Speaker 1: am I calling? To get?
Speaker 2: Like like, I didn't. I wasn't even thinking about recreational
Speaker 2: party drugs. I was like, you know, where do I
Speaker 2: get these opioids? And you know, these things that are
Speaker 2: just going to numb, numb my brain to a point
Speaker 2: of where I'm not thinking.
Speaker 1: You know where I can't. I'm not capable of thought.
Speaker 2: Luckily through just through education and like my own sort
Speaker 2: of sense that I knew that that wasn't the right way,
Speaker 2: and I'd been I knew through therapy and I knew
Speaker 2: through reading that there was light, like deep down it
Speaker 2: it was just I had to work hard enough to
Speaker 2: get there. But there were so many times where I
Speaker 2: was like, no, it's too hard, Like it's going to
Speaker 2: take way too much work that would be a lot easier.
Speaker 1: I'll just do that.
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, you're actually you're educated enough
Speaker 2: to know you know that there is light. If you
Speaker 2: want it, you just have to work for every day
Speaker 2: was like if I got through the day, that was
Speaker 2: a win, like the sun's up tomorrow, and try to
Speaker 2: tick little goals, tried to you know, started really small. Okay,
Speaker 2: I didn't improve today, but things didn't get worse, Like
Speaker 2: that's that's that's good. I got through the day and
Speaker 2: sort of much much smaller goalpost. So I remember the
Speaker 2: strain psychologist Michael Lloyd. He said to me, you know
Speaker 2: the story about the twenty cent piece in a phone booth,
Speaker 2: sort of like when someone goes and checks, goes to
Speaker 2: make a phone call in the phone booth and then
Speaker 2: realizes there's two twenty cent pieces in the bottom of
Speaker 2: the phone booth.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh look, I got a free.
Speaker 2: Phone call, and they just chuck it in, you know,
Speaker 2: check the twenty cent and you felt joy in that
Speaker 2: moment over something so small. If I found two twenty
Speaker 2: cent pieces at that time of my life, I would
Speaker 2: have created a negative emotion out of that reaction. But
Speaker 2: like trying to actually realize that it was my mind
Speaker 2: that was telling me that, and every situation that happened
Speaker 2: day to day. I was trying to have that sort
Speaker 2: of twenty cent piece reaction to sort of each situation
Speaker 2: in the day. Oh that's a nice surprise. The mushrooms
Speaker 2: taste quite good this morning. Actually, you know, I just
Speaker 2: just really random stuff that I hadn't even considered being
Speaker 2: a positive experience ever before. One of the things I
Speaker 2: started doing was and I had to fake it at
Speaker 2: the start, was I started keeping like a gratitude journal,
Speaker 2: and for the first month I had to fake it,
Speaker 2: Like I was like writing stuff at the end of
Speaker 2: the day that I knew I should have been grateful
Speaker 2: for at the time, but I actually wasn't. I was like,
Speaker 2: I should have been grateful for this person doing this,
Speaker 2: but I didn't even notice at the time that this happened.
Speaker 2: Just through like days and days and days and weeks
Speaker 2: of doing this and committing to it, they like I
Speaker 2: actually started to pick up on those moments in the
Speaker 2: day that I should have been grateful for, Oh, thank
Speaker 2: you very much for doing that, Like I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: And then maybe i'd send a text or i'd send
Speaker 2: a letter to say thank you and to actually express
Speaker 2: how I felt in a much healthier way than just.
Speaker 1: Going, oh, thanks mate.
Speaker 2: Those kinds of things started to feel like second nature
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, like I was actually noticing the
Speaker 2: good things that happened every day to me. And I
Speaker 2: actually started to feel like I was, you know, like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm having a good day, like these look at all
Speaker 2: these great But what I realized was my days hadn't changed.
Speaker 2: It was just like my perception on the days had changed.
Speaker 2: The lenses on my sunglasses had changed. It was like
Speaker 2: I was wearing these really dark black lenses and now
Speaker 2: I'm just wearing these light lenses and I'm seeing the
Speaker 2: best in every situation. My gratitude journal got to a
Speaker 2: stage where I started off that old saying fake it.
Speaker 1: Till you make it.
Speaker 2: But I was spending twenty minutes trying to find one
Speaker 2: or two things to be grateful for. And I still
Speaker 2: remember the sentences I'd write were like I'm grateful because
Speaker 2: my dog Morton came and met me at the door.
Speaker 2: At the door, and I'm grateful because Christa made dinner,
Speaker 2: and like these absolute like I wasn't even engaging with
Speaker 2: like what I was writing down. I realized, like, after
Speaker 2: six months of doing it, I had to actually stop
Speaker 2: keeping a journal because everything I wrote that same moment
Speaker 2: of like when Christa made me dinner. I started like
Speaker 2: writing a paragraph about that moment. You know, I was
Speaker 2: like this and the efforts she went to and it
Speaker 2: made me feel like this, and I just respect like
Speaker 2: these qualities about her and my dog and he did this,
Speaker 2: and like my mate, he came picked me up, and
Speaker 2: I would write the whole moment because I'd experienced that
Speaker 2: whole moment and I remembered everything about how that moment
Speaker 2: made me feel. By the end, I was like spending
Speaker 2: an hour and a half in bed writing down fifteen
Speaker 2: twenty things I was grateful for. I was doing like
Speaker 2: two pages worth of gratitude like I couldn't and I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, this is getting to a point where
Speaker 2: maybe it's becoming a bit of an obsession and I'm
Speaker 2: writing way too much. But it had helped me experience
Speaker 2: the moment, to experience those nice twenty cent piece moments
Speaker 2: of like that nice feeling of when something good happens
Speaker 2: to you, or when a situation happens to you and
Speaker 2: you take it and accept it in a positive way,
Speaker 2: flipping my perspective on that sort of hole, maybe even
Speaker 2: a little bit of a victim mentality of like oh
Speaker 2: it's so hard, like nothing good happens, and just through
Speaker 2: time and doing it day like day and day and
Speaker 2: sort of becoming more and more present because oh, what
Speaker 2: am I going to write in my gratitude diary later tonight?
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh, you're looking for things. And then
Speaker 2: I started to do things like the things I looked
Speaker 2: forward to in the next day, so I would tell
Speaker 2: myself that things were going to be good moments. And
Speaker 2: again I was faking it till I made it, because
Speaker 2: I was like I remembered writing things like I look
Speaker 2: forward to the opportunity to go out to bat tomorrow,
Speaker 2: and I was lying to myself. I was like, I
Speaker 2: did not look forward to that. I'm absolutely hearing that,
Speaker 2: but like I knew I should have been looking forward
Speaker 2: to it, and it was a way for me to go, okay,
Speaker 2: like this is a step towards.
Speaker 1: And like now when I go out to bat.
Speaker 2: I went out to bat in the AUSSI a game
Speaker 2: against England a and I remember thinking like if that
Speaker 2: had happened to me four years ago. I would have
Speaker 2: been so worried and had this fear of failure. But
Speaker 2: I remember, like we were two for not many or
Speaker 2: three for not many when I went out to be
Speaker 2: an absolute like it was green and it was seeming
Speaker 2: around everybody's like, what a challenge.
Speaker 1: How good is this going to be? It's going to
Speaker 1: be so much fun.
Speaker 2: It's underlie its pink ball, Like if I can get
Speaker 2: through this, it's like, what a great opportunity. And I
Speaker 2: actually believed what I was telling myself.
Speaker 3: You know, so you sent out a social media post
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago. You know that you still
Speaker 3: have your moments and it is tough, and you mentioned
Speaker 3: earlier you're a new dad. How hard has it been?
Speaker 3: And you know, and what have you learned about yourself
Speaker 3: in that.
Speaker 2: When I put out that post, I wasn't in a
Speaker 2: bad space myself. I did get a lot of people
Speaker 2: contacting me worried about how I was. I probably should
Speaker 2: have put a disclaimer on my post that I was
Speaker 2: doing okay, and I apologized to anyone who was worried.
Speaker 2: It definitely wasn't a cry out for help, but it
Speaker 2: was more so a post because I just read I
Speaker 2: just finished reading a book that sort of spoke a
Speaker 2: lot about the expectations that social media and stuff can
Speaker 2: put on people. And you know, that constant comparison, that
Speaker 2: life comparison, of the journey you're going through in the
Speaker 2: journey other people going through. And I remember going through
Speaker 2: my own posts and thinking, other than a couple of
Speaker 2: posts like back when I actually went through my depression
Speaker 2: and stuff, and my whole social feed was like good times,
Speaker 2: you know, photos on holidays, photos playing golf, photos of
Speaker 2: you know, me at the cafe, photos of the dog,
Speaker 2: of for my son, of my wife and and my friends,
Speaker 2: and we're all smiling and having a good time.
Speaker 4: No whenever post photos of when they got a duck.
Speaker 2: Exactly like it's just highlights. It's just an absolute highlight reel.
Speaker 2: And I thought, I thought, jeez, I'd never even considered
Speaker 2: that my social media could be providing like a false
Speaker 2: narrative of what my life looks like to someone who
Speaker 2: might be comparing themselves and going, well, he's doing all
Speaker 2: these things, this is what my life needs to look like.
Speaker 2: Especially because I'd had a son and I was a
Speaker 2: new father. I was so proud of being a new father,
Speaker 2: and I was so happy to see like whenever he
Speaker 2: pipped out a little smile, or if I'd changed his
Speaker 2: nappy successfully or got got him to sleep successfully, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, yeah, I've done my job.
Speaker 1: How goodxist, you know.
Speaker 2: But there were so many moments in between of just
Speaker 2: feeling completely out of depth as a father and feeling
Speaker 2: like completely like I had no idea what's going on.
Speaker 2: But all my social posts were the opposite of like
Speaker 2: just times like this is me changing the baby, he's
Speaker 2: just done a pooh, and like, yeah, this is like
Speaker 2: I'm really happy about it, but no, it's a real
Speaker 2: inconvenience at times, you know, and it's not It wasn't
Speaker 2: bloody easy. And I just thought to myself, like, I actually,
Speaker 2: I think I owe it to other people to show
Speaker 2: them this life projection and the life comparison that social
Speaker 2: media can do. That I definitely appreciate that I am
Speaker 2: very lucky. I have a great life, and I am
Speaker 2: very lucky, but there's no way that my social media
Speaker 2: is a great reflection on what my actual life is,
Speaker 2: you know, like I'm only posting the highlights on.
Speaker 3: Here, especially when you're somebody that's come out so publicly
Speaker 3: and said this is what I've been through as well,
Speaker 3: So you have almost feel like there's more pressure on.
Speaker 2: You to well, that's yeah, I think that's exactly right too.
Speaker 2: Like I didn't want to feel like that may be
Speaker 2: my profile or my social media sort of page or
Speaker 2: whatever it might have been. And I wasn't too self
Speaker 2: indulgent to think that, like people were doing that, but
Speaker 2: I just thought, I don't want to be part of
Speaker 2: the problem. Sure as hell, someone not everyone would have
Speaker 2: all the symptoms of anxiety or depression, and not everyone
Speaker 2: maybe some people don't have any. But if there's one
Speaker 2: symptom or two or three or however many symptoms, if
Speaker 2: you can relate to it and understand it, Yeah, I
Speaker 2: felt that. Yeah, I've done that as well. It's okay
Speaker 2: to feel that, the feeling of that you're not unique
Speaker 2: in your problem, or that you're not not alone.
Speaker 1: You're not alone.
Speaker 3: I've really enjoyed talking to you because I think you
Speaker 3: have a really unique ability to put it into words
Speaker 3: and explain it in a way that it's almost like
Speaker 3: it becomes a self help manual. The things that you've
Speaker 3: learned and what's helpful to people, and I think that's
Speaker 3: the key to this podcast is at celebrating resilience, so
Speaker 3: it's not just focusing on what you've been through, but
Speaker 3: also coming out the other end, hopefully. I wanted to
Speaker 3: finish by asking you, how do you feel about cricket now?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I still feel like right now, I accept I'm a
Speaker 2: lot closer to the end of my career than the start,
Speaker 2: and i'd hope so. I've been playing for fifteen years
Speaker 2: now professionally, so it's I mean, if I was more
Speaker 2: than fifteen years away from the end, I'd be real worry.
Speaker 2: But I think I've like, I enjoy the game a
Speaker 2: lot more now than what I did three or four
Speaker 2: years ago. There's absolutely no doubt about that. I'm probably
Speaker 2: not as aspirational as I was ten years ago, five, ten,
Speaker 2: fifteen years ago. I don't care as much about wanting
Speaker 2: to play for Australia and wanting to wear the Baggy
Speaker 2: Green and wanting to do these things because everyone told
Speaker 2: me I should. What I care about is trying my
Speaker 2: absolute best in every moment to be the best person
Speaker 2: I can be. So whether that's as a cricketer as
Speaker 2: which is my occupation at the moment, or whether that's
Speaker 2: as a friend or as a captain, or as a
Speaker 2: husband or as a father. Like so yeah, I do
Speaker 2: I do want to be I still want to be
Speaker 2: the very best cricketer I can be, and to do that,
Speaker 2: I still feel like I have to challenge myself against
Speaker 2: the best. So I still do want to play for Australia.
Speaker 2: I still do want to have success in the Australian
Speaker 2: cricket team. But it isn't like that isn't what keeps
Speaker 2: me going. It's like what keeps me going now is
Speaker 2: sort of just being the best person I can be,
Speaker 2: being the best cricketer I can be, and having as
Speaker 2: like as positive influence on the team that I play
Speaker 2: in with whether it's people in the actual playing leven
Speaker 2: or the squad and using my own experiences I guess
Speaker 2: of and there's no doubt, and especially in cricket, but
Speaker 2: and even hearing other people's store other you know, whether
Speaker 2: it's AFL or rugby league, rugby union, any sports, all
Speaker 2: the individual sports as well, hearing the stories of self
Speaker 2: doubt depression and how common it.
Speaker 1: Is in elite sport.
Speaker 2: I do feel like I've through what I've been through
Speaker 2: I can communicate that, and I feel like I can
Speaker 2: observe and see some of those symptoms that I had
Speaker 2: never do I say, you're going through this, you're doing that?
Speaker 2: Of course not, but like I observe similar things that
Speaker 2: he's putting a lot of pressure on himself like I
Speaker 2: used to. I still love competing, even though I accept
Speaker 2: competition isn't always the healthiest thing for well being. But
Speaker 2: I still love that contest of playing sport of trying to.
Speaker 2: I don't love to see other people fail. I don't
Speaker 2: love winning because I like seeing other people losing. I
Speaker 2: love competing because I want to do better than I
Speaker 2: did yesterday. I want to be a better better than
Speaker 2: I was last week. I want to be a better
Speaker 2: bowler than I was last week, or than I was,
Speaker 2: you know, five years ago. That's why I love competing.
Speaker 2: I want to make more birdies than I did, or
Speaker 2: make less bogies, I should say, than I did a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago. So for competition, for me, it's
Speaker 2: not so much about wanting to dominate someone else. It's
Speaker 2: actually just for me keep trying to improve and keep
Speaker 2: trying to get better. And also, if I don't like
Speaker 2: now learning that sort of compassion of it's okay, like
Speaker 2: you tried your best, because it's so easy to forget,
Speaker 2: and I think that's really important thing for me to
Speaker 2: remember continuously, because I still forget whether I do well
Speaker 2: at cricket or whether I don't, whether I do have
Speaker 2: a positive impact on someone else or I don't, as
Speaker 2: long as I know deep down that I tried my
Speaker 2: best in that moment, like that's you know, I guess
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, that's all I can do.
Speaker 4: The courage to be kinder to yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's harder than it sounds. It is.
Speaker 4: It is. Thank you for chatting to me. I could
Speaker 4: chat to you all day.
Speaker 3: I really do appreciate it, and I think what you're
Speaker 3: doing is pretty powerful.
Speaker 4: It's already helped a lot.
Speaker 3: Of people with what you've done, and I hope this
Speaker 3: kind of podcast is going to help a lot more.
Speaker 2: So, thank you, Thanks Nay, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: I've enjoyed it so time.
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode of ordinarily speaking, I want
Speaker 3: to go back and check out the episode with Glenn Maxwell,
Speaker 3: who detailed his break from the game for mental health reasons.
Speaker 3: Remember if this chat has triggered something for you, Please
Speaker 3: ask for help. If you enjoy this podcast, follow Ordinarily
Speaker 3: Underscore Speaking on Instagram and make sure you hit subscribe
Speaker 1: And