1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amatha Imba. 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: invent Him, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: my workday. This episode is another my favorite tip episode. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: The title's probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: tip from each of the interviews I conduct. So the 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: extract I have for you today is from my chat 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: with Scott Young. Scott is a writer who undertakes interesting 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: self education projects, such as attempting to learn MIT's four 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: year computer science curriculum in just twelve months and doing 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: things like learning four languages in one year, both of 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: which he did successfully. So I was actually introduced by 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: h nia El, who was a previous guest to Scott. 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: And what was really funny that is I was actually 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: reading Scott's book Ultra Learning at the time, which is 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: such a brilliant book. So if you are interested in 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: how to get better at learning, I definitely recommend my 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: full chat with Scott. But in this particular extract, we 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: talk about the best ways to give and respond to 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: feedback according to what the scientific research tells us. So 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: on that note, let's head to Scott. I really loved 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: what you had to say about about feedback, and I'm 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: wondering for you, like, after knowing what you know now 26 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: and what you uncovered in the research, firstly, how do 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: you give feedback really well? And then I also want 28 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: to know for you, how do you respond to feedback? 29 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: So maybe let's talk about how do you give good feedback? 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 2: So this is an interesting question. 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 3: It's not one that I directly addressed in the book 32 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: because for the most part in the book, I took 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 3: the perspective of the learner. I took the perspective of 34 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: the person who wants to be seeking the feedback. But 35 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 3: for giving feedback. I think it's a really interesting question 36 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: because I think that most people don't actually want feedback, 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: and I know that we kind of intuitively think, well, 38 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: but they, you know, it's what's good for them, they 39 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: need feedback. But I think the social dynamics are very 40 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: important here. And so I was actually talking with Angelo DeNisi, 41 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 3: who co authored one of the meta analyses that I 42 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 3: used for the research, and discussing feedback, and he has 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 3: some research on feedback interventions in the workplace, and what 44 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: he found was that so I didn't mention this research 45 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: in the book, but what he found was that often 46 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 3: feedback seeking behavior is not actually seeking feedback, but more 47 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: like seeking reassurance. That the person says I want feedback, 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 3: but they're really saying, is I want you to say. 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: You did a great job. They're not really seeking to 50 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: improve themselves. 51 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 3: And that what they found is that if you give 52 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 3: people feedback when they don't actually want it, when they're 53 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: not really seeking feedback, that it tends to backfire, that 54 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: it tends not to actually improve their performance. 55 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: So the idea that. 56 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 3: Well, it's what's good for them, I've got to give 57 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 3: them this feedback is not necessarily helpful if that person 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 3: themselves doesn't want to actually use the information to improve. 59 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: So I think that's a very. 60 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 3: Useful thing when you're talking to people, because people will 61 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 3: solicit feedback for all sorts of reasons. 62 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: One thing that I've. 63 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: Noticed for myself is that people will maybe reach out 64 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: to me and ask them what's my feedback on an 65 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: article they've written, And sometimes they genuinely want me to 66 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: give them writing advice, but I find that suspiciously that 67 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 3: I think some of the time what they want is 68 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: they want me to read the article and maybe I'll 69 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: link to it or recommend them because I'll say it 70 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 3: was a great article and this kind of thing. And 71 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 3: so it's important to kind of note those situations because 72 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: if the person was not really looking for feedback and 73 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: then you say, wow, you kind of did this not 74 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: very well, that person might interpret this quite negatively and 75 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: they might not use it to further their improvement. 76 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: And so I think that. 77 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 3: The social dynamics of individuals giving feedback to other individuals 78 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: can't be understated. So a lot of times where feedback 79 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: could be useful, it could be used as useful information 80 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 3: to increase progress, actually isn't used. And so a lot 81 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 3: of the studies reinforce this point that feedback isn't always 82 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: beneficial again because sometimes people don't use that feedback. So 83 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: in these cases they weren't actually wanting the feedback. But 84 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 3: sometimes you know, you get your marks back from a class, 85 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 3: and you don't use that to improve your progress. You 86 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 3: just use that as a way of, well, this class 87 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 3: is bs, I'm not actually going to try very hard, 88 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 3: or you know, Oh, I don't get anything, what's going on. 89 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: I'm not actually going to use this information. 90 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: And so I think that from the perspective of learners, 91 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: we have to be very aware of our own psychology, 92 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: of our own motivations for seeking things that a lot 93 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: of people you know, will take that tactic. You want 94 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 3: to seek out feedback, and then someone says something mean 95 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 3: about you and you feel so bad and you're like, ah, well, 96 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: they didn't know what they were talking about, and you 97 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: realize that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about here, 98 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: that you're seeking feedback but you're not actually intending to 99 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: use it. 100 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. That's such a good point. So if 101 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: if say, like someone that you know, let's say that 102 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: they're not a random stranger, asks you for feedback, is 103 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: your first question do you actually want the feedback? Like, 104 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: how do you respond to that? 105 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: Well? 106 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: I think that there are ways that you can be 107 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: helpful and give feedback that is in a more positive 108 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: and encouraging way. But at the same time I think 109 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: that again, this is sort of I prefer it when 110 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 3: someone would. 111 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: Ask me a very specific question. 112 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 3: So if they were sort of to say, I'll put 113 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 3: it this way, if someone were to come up to 114 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: me and say, Okay, so I'm working on this headline, 115 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 3: and what are some ways that you think I can 116 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 3: make this headline better? That's going to be a place 117 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: where I think I can more concretely give feedback. Then 118 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 3: what do you think about this article I wrote? Or 119 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: what do you think about my writing? That's a harder 120 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: thing because those are going to be more general critiques 121 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: and they're maybe going to hit at that person's ego 122 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: a little bit harder than they would if the person said, 123 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: you know, I'm looking for suggestions, and then you can 124 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: suggest some suggestions and then they can take it or 125 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: leave it right. And so I think for me, when 126 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 3: people ask me for feedback, usually my first question is 127 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: kind of like, well, what kind of feedback are you 128 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 3: looking for? And I I think I'm hoping at least 129 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: that when I ask that question to people, it will 130 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 3: prompt them to reflect on more specific questions they can 131 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 3: ask me rather than just feedback. They can say things like, 132 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 3: you know, well I'm struggling with this, can you offer 133 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 3: some advice or And then that way I don't have 134 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 3: to be in a critical mindset. I can be in 135 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 3: a helping mindset because they've kind of identified something that 136 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 3: they think might be need some work and they want 137 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 3: me to point out. Whereas if they thought that their 138 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: headline was great and I said, wow, your headline isn't 139 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: very good, you know that maybe isn't what they were looking. 140 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: For and it maybe will have a negative response. 141 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: I love that. I think that's so good. I'm going 142 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: to take that on myself. A lot of my team 143 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: will send me articles that they're working on to give feedback, 144 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: and I sometimes feel a bit overwhelmed and feel like 145 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: I have to do like a big, thorough kind of 146 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: copy edit of the whole thing. But now I'm going 147 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: to ask what specifically would you like feedback on. I 148 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: think that's what type of feedback would you like? That's 149 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: such a great question. And look, I guess the other 150 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: side of feedback is how how do you personally respond 151 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: to feedback? Because in the book you talk about not 152 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: all feedback is actually useful feedback. So for you, how 153 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: do you decide what feedback to take on and what 154 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: to do with it. 155 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: The advice that I kind of feel, if I could 156 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: summarize what I took from the research, is that you 157 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: should be getting more feedback, but a sort of paradoxically 158 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: also ignoring more of it, meaning that you need to 159 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 3: filter more of the feedback you're getting. And so I 160 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: give some sort of broad categories of different kinds of 161 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: feedback that you might get in the book. And one 162 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: of the important lessons, I think from the perspective of 163 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 3: the learner when it comes to a processing feedback is 164 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 3: to realize what kind of information you can get from 165 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: this source and what kind of information you can't get, 166 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 3: Because a lot of people what they really want is 167 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: corrective feedback. They want someone to tell them what to do. 168 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: And that's great, and you know, the research does bear 169 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: that out that when that is possible, that works really well. 170 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 3: But the problem is is that often you can't get 171 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: that kind of feedback, and often the person you're asking 172 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: it from or the source you're getting feedback can't give 173 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: you that information. And so sometimes people, in a kind 174 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 3: of misguided attempt, really try to get corrective feedback when 175 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 3: the people they're talking to really can't correct their performance. 176 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: So a good example of this is if you were giving, 177 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: let's say a speech, and you know you're a public 178 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: speaker and you have an audience, it's very normal to 179 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: say to the audience, maybe if you're trying to improve 180 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 3: your public speaking, how did my speech go? 181 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: What did you like about it? What didn't you like 182 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: about it? 183 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: And what you can get from the audience is you 184 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: can get some sort of visceral reaction from them. You 185 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 3: can get you know, how much they applauded, how many 186 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 3: people were looking at you when you were talking versus 187 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 3: how many of them were looking at their phones. You 188 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: can get kind of how many times how much laughter 189 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 3: your joke's got, or what was the sort of emotional 190 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: reaction after the speech, And you can get this kind 191 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 3: of general barometer of how your performance went. But one 192 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 3: of the things that is going to be really difficult 193 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: is if you went to just a normal person in 194 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: the audience who's not an expert speaker, and said, well, 195 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: what could I do better in my speech? Now you're 196 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 3: asking for corrective feedback. You're asking for information that they 197 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 3: may not actually be able to give you. And the 198 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: problem is that when you ask people this, they usually 199 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: volunteer an answer. They'll usually tell you something, and so 200 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 3: this is where you have to be really careful because 201 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: if they're telling you something that might not actually improve 202 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: your speech. And so when I was documenting Tristan to Montebello, 203 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 3: who did a public speaking project for Ultra Learning, he 204 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 3: noted to me that one of the things that he 205 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: paid attention to wasn't the actual advice, but the consistency 206 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: of the vice. That he noticed that that was actually 207 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: a pretty reliable signal of quality that would people were 208 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 3: giving him advice all over the place. He knew the 209 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 3: speech wasn't ready and it required a lot of work. 210 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: When the advice was very specific, that they commented on 211 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: the same things and they had the same reaction, the 212 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: speech was a lot better. And so that's a sort 213 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: of observation that I think takes a lot of practice 214 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 3: to deduce. 215 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 2: From your field. But I think it's the. 216 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 3: Kind of direction that you should be going of, not 217 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: just taking it for granted that everyone's going to give 218 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: you the right answer, but just sort of saying, Okay, 219 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: let's get more information and then let's try to spot 220 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 3: patterns that are associated with success or a little indicators 221 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: that you can use to determine whether or not something 222 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: is going the direction you want. 223 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: Hello, there, that is it for today's show. If you 224 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: found it useful, and perhaps to know other people who 225 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: maybe could do with giving and responding to feedback a 226 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: little bit better. Maybe you might want to share this 227 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: episode with them as a subtle hint. Just use the 228 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: share icon Wherever you listen to this podcast, and if 229 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: you're enjoying how I work, thank you. If you've left 230 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: a review in Apple podcasts orever you listen to this too, 231 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: and if you haven't, maybe today's the day you'd like 232 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: to give some feedback. I absolutely love hearing from listeners. 233 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: It's awesome, so thank you if you have left a review, 234 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: and if today's the day, thank you so much. So 235 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: that's it for today's show and I will see you 236 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: next time.